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View Full Version : Planes Vs FM



XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 12:10 AM
I´m a Noob here but this is what i really think.
Instead of having so many planes... so many non realistic flight models as we have wouldn´t it be nice having fewer planes but with accurate flight models?
We gotta give some credit to the Ubi guys they have so much thing to model that they will proly never get one right...just a few closures.

Thats what I´m expecting that will happen with Lomac (Few planes= good flight model)


-=487th=- Flock

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 12:10 AM
I´m a Noob here but this is what i really think.
Instead of having so many planes... so many non realistic flight models as we have wouldn´t it be nice having fewer planes but with accurate flight models?
We gotta give some credit to the Ubi guys they have so much thing to model that they will proly never get one right...just a few closures.

Thats what I´m expecting that will happen with Lomac (Few planes= good flight model)


-=487th=- Flock

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 12:37 AM
FlockZa wrote:
- I´m a Noob here but this is what i really think.
- Instead of having so many planes... so many non
- realistic flight models as we have wouldn´t it be
- nice having fewer planes but with accurate flight
- models?
- We gotta give some credit to the Ubi guys they have
- so much thing to model that they will proly never
- get one right...just a few closures.
-
- Thats what I´m expecting that will happen with Lomac
- (Few planes= good flight model)


Non realistic flight models? Get real. These are the most realistic flight and damage models in any sim on the market at this time. Name ONE that is more realistic or closer to the actual stats of the real planes. You wont find one because it doesnt exist. I am no engineer and certainly no warbird pilot...but I am a simmer...and I have been simming for a while and i have tried most of the top dogs in the market....the whole CFS series, Aces High, Fighter Ace, Warbirds.....never got to Janes or EAW but no matter....from what MY trusted sources tell me they too come in way behind the FMs & DMs in IL2 or FB. Like i said I am no engineer but when I read about pilot accounts, look at stats or see actual gun cam footage there is NO SIM out that comes as close to THAT as FB. NONE. Pfffft....unrealistic FMs....../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif They arent perfect...but since like I said none of us with few exceptions are aeronautical engineers or warbird pilots... I trust Oleg & 1C more than I'd trus anyone's opinion here with the exception of Sky Chimp since he is the only person I know of since i have been around to present facts to Oleg and have Oleg say..."You are right I will change it...."

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Message Edited on 09/17/0307:48PM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 12:38 AM
Yawn.

Non-realistic flight models?

What the hell do you know about realistic WW2 flight models?

noob!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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Nevermore!</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 01:07 AM
*commie* likes the FMs. Wow. What a shocker there. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


Bearcat, he said unrealistic, he did not say or imply that there was anything better in the genre. Something *can* be the best in it's field and still not be good. "Best" and "good" are 2 different concepts.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 01:19 AM
Yeah but how do you define realistic..unless you are a pilot or an engineer. I dont know about you but this is the only sim I have ever flown that I could get into an unrecoverable spin....or where the centrigugal force prevented me from bailing out...or where I consistantly go into a stall below a certain airspeed which is different on several aircraft but yet consistant with each one.... There is nothing closer in any sim and if this is the best there is then why keep bit*hin & moaning about the FMs when there are no better? it's sort of like cursing your car because it cant fly.....c'mon..... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 01:30 AM
Well, spin behavior in this sim is nothing more than eye candy. So is much of the stall behavior.

There is a lot that can be recognized as inaccurate without needing to be a pilot or engineer. This is a huge mis-conception (that you need to be one to have any knowledge of the subject), I don't know where or how it started.

It's also human nature to complain when they aren't happy. Trying to get them to not do so is trying to get them to not be human (kinda like trying to force people to supress violence - but that's another topic). The hope is that something will be changed. Failing that, the co-miserating does 2 things. It increases the amount of general un-happiness, which might well push someone over the edge into making their own and doing it better, and/or shows a prime market for someone else to come in, do it right, and make some coin.

If everyone simply shut up and said nothing....well...nothing good would ever get done, and it would actually get worse over time, because it could.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 01:53 AM
To me the most unrealistic thing about Fb is the fact that you dont feel or hear it when you get hit. Hopefully that will be fixed in the next DL.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 05:44 PM
Actually considering how many flight models there are & how many features to each, i think there are relatively few inaccuracies. The problem is if one version of one plane type performs better than it should in one area -ie P39 climbs too well it can really upset online fliers & change the balance of those games. Off line I don't think it matters so much.

i remember in EAW how the ai didn't overheat so a plane that was hsitorically slower than mine could out-run me as mine would quickly overheat. I just learned to make allowances for this,


FlockZa wrote:
- I´m a Noob here but this is what i really think.
- Instead of having so many planes... so many non
- realistic flight models as we have wouldn´t it be
- nice having fewer planes but with accurate flight
- models?
- We gotta give some credit to the Ubi guys they have
- so much thing to model that they will proly never
- get one right...just a few closures.
-
- Thats what I´m expecting that will happen with Lomac
- (Few planes= good flight model)
-
-
--=487th=- Flock
-
-



http://idealab.snu.ac.kr/~hobbist/La-5FN/small/La-5FN-06.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 09:17 PM
Just deal with what the game gives ya and use it to your advantage.

http://home.si.rr.com/skywolf/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 09:22 PM
S! Commie

Ur Very agressive dude...lake of friends proly?

I really dont know about WW2 FM. But i still kmow 1 thing.... Read it carefully...what im just saying is that if we had fewer airplanes we should get better (CLOSE TO REAL) FM.

btw i probably have more flight experience in real life than u do.

ZG77_Nagual
09-18-2003, 09:23 PM
Well, I define realistic in terms of relative performance. Exact numbers don't really exist due to all the variations within the same model - so I like those close, but I don't expect them to match 'the book' whatever that may be.

Dogfighting however - I do expect to be able to study tactics for the various planes and employ them and have them work relative to the other planes - relative strengths and weaknesses are what I look for. So far it seems very close to spot on.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 09:33 PM
Real WWII pilots had to cope with the situation they encountered and they couldn't whine about the FM or DM. They just had to defend their county (or attack the other one) with what they had.

When one side had better planes and/or better pilots (in sufficient numbers) they would get the upper hand. And there is little that the opposite side could do about it, without a loss of lots of (real!) lives. That's why I think Oleg should stop making any adjustments to these matters.

As far as adding planes, with the tons of planes now under development, I can immagine that Oleg gets quite busy making them all flyable (along with his other projects) and that sometimes, he can get things not fully right.

Oleg listens far too well to all whining. Is there whining on CFS forums? NO, just because everyone knows that Microsoft isn't going to listen EVER. Oleg comes to these forums, listens, sometimes posting himself. If you give them one finger, some people take the whole hand.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 09:35 PM
What I´m just saying, and I´m not complaining about the sim cause i know it´s the best so far and I play it almost every day, is that if we had fewer planes we could have a better FM.

In the basis of my comments is the fact that almost every day people complaints that FM is this...that Dora roll rate is that, that the P39 now is ubber, Bf´s are porked etc etc etc...I´m sure u realized that.
So this complaints are from people that know what they are talking right?...i assume they do. Then something is very wrong...what?





Btw... i still hold an air traffic controller´s licence and a private pilot licence with 180 logged hours in DeHavilland Chipmunk; C337 Skymaster and Cessna 182rg

ZG77_Nagual
09-18-2003, 10:01 PM
Bad assumption FlockZa - and I agree with you Platypus.

None of us really know what we're talking about - by definition. Those with good stats to back up their impressions contact 1c directly - and we've seen more than a few changes as new data came to light. But on these forums it's mostly people just abusing the privalege.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:31 PM
S! Nagual

Try to get my point of view...



Less Planes Equals Better Flight Model... 1c would have fewer airplanes to study, less variables, better programing...enfin the works.

Let me put 1 question to 1c... Why u guys at 1c are modelling far less acft on Lomac? why not put the entire arsenal of the U.S air Force and the same for Russian Side?

2 many planes proly, 2 many varables 2 many things to fix.

Guys dont get me wrong what want to say is... fewer planes will give us better flight model? does the number of planes available compromise in any manner the difficulty of having near perfect flight model?

But i really love this game since is the best sim i played so far.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:34 AM
I happen to like having so many planes to fly!

I have avoided flight sims for years because none could match the sheer numbers of the ACES series put out by Sierra/Dynamix, and IL-2 just looked like a winner to me.

I'm in love with aircraft all over again! Maybe the flightmodels arn't perfect, but I don't care. I'm having fun...

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:54 AM
I am an admitted ignorant WRT FMs even though I have a BS in Aero (big deal), but there are many WWII enthusiasts out there who have read alot about relative strengths and weaknesses of certain aircraft, and when these qualities do not show up in a SIM then I think it is a valid thing to question the validity of such a flight model. Sure not all that you read is true or accurate, but at the same time that does not mean that everything you read is bunk either.

Quite frankly I've learned alot just playing this game, but I've taken some of these flight models with a grain of salt since they seem to change so greatly between patches, and appear to be slightly skewed towards the higher end VVS planes like LA7 and YAKs (especially when you factor in the AI behavior).

I enjoy the planes with alittle more challenge and tend to fly P-47, P-40, FW190 and 109s. WHen I want to take it easy I switch to LAs or YAKs (although I still can't see out of the darn early YAKs). I agree with those that enjoy the variety but also am a little disappointed that when I take up a certain plane it does not at all resemble what I have read about in the past.

Maybe I am learning something , but more likely I am experiencing the limitations of a SIM with a large plane set.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 05:32 AM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- Bad assumption FlockZa - and I agree with you
- Platypus.
-
- None of us really know what we're talking about - by
- definition. Those with good stats to back up their
- impressions contact 1c directly - and we've seen
- more than a few changes as new data came to light.
- But on these forums it's mostly people just abusing
- the privalege.

Actually, he's not that far off.


If you say that test reports are not accurate, then it implies that it is impossible to ever know what any plane can do, in anyway that is describable via numbers or text.

I think that is a bogus concept, really. Just going on pure logic alone.

Also, we've seen more than enough things *not* be changed even when people prove it incorrect in the sim and contact 1C directly.

Fact is, they've simply used up all their benefit of the doubt at this point. I'm not really sure why people are always apologizing for them. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



Not aimed personally at you Nagaul, you were just a springboard.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 06:14 AM
bearcat99

this is the only sim I flown that I could get into an unrecoverable spin

just trottle fully back rudder opposite of the spin with most the aircraft

in the 190 yaks and la7s just leave the stick centered and your instantly out of the spin even with no rudder or reduce in throttle




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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 06:26 AM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- To me the most unrealistic thing about Fb is the
- fact that you dont feel or hear it when you get hit.
- Hopefully that will be fixed in the next DL.
-
-



minor point but with FFB on you do feel hits to your plane through the stick

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