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Rammjaeger
01-12-2007, 03:40 AM
Joseph Goebbels (in case someone doesnt know) was minister of propaganda and education in nazi Germany. He was also responsible for mobilising the civilian population for total war after 1943. He had been keeping a diary for decades which eventually reached a volume of more than 16000 pages. Edited versions of this has been published since 1972.

He was very well-informed about German internal politics and his diary entries explain a lot about the methods the nazis used to run their empire. He often made remarks about the Luftwaffe. He was a civilian with no experience in military aviation and was also a diehard nazi (some of his remarks are kind of psychotic) so his points of view shouldnt always be accepted as necessarily valid; nevertheless they are interesting.

Below are excerpts from a shortened version of the Joseph Goebbels Diaries published by R. Piper GmbH (München, 1992):

(translation is mine)

4 March 1944:

"With respect to the air war over the Reich: the Führer has great expectations for the new armament of our fighter aircraft...He finds it regrettable that Goering completely failed to supply the air force with proper equipment. Udet and Mölders are also largely to blame. They failed to put emphasis on heavy fighter armament because they were very skilled pilots. The type of aircraft and armament they suggested for wartime service may have been adequate for veterans of their experience but most of our fighter pilots find them insufficient."

(when talking about "new armament", Goebbels was referring to radar-equipped nightfighters, the "Rotterdam device", and probably the Fw-190A)

2 December 1944:

"The Führer informed me about the current status of our armament program. Except for aircraft, our new types of weaponry are all of higher standard than those of the enemy. Our tanks, artillery, antitank guns and machine guns are of the highest quality. Only our air force is fatally inferior...The kill-to-loss ratio of our fighter pilots is, thank God, very high; however, the Führer believes that we are currently unable to field aircraft types that are on par with those of the enemy.
I was stunned to hear that he isnt expecting much from the new Me-262 fighters. The max. speed of the Me-262 is 1000 km/h but the Führer believes that it doesn?t offer much of an advantage since the pilot has great difficulty firing accurate shots at such speeds. The Führer has much greater expectations for the new ?Tank? fighter aircraft. Their mass production will only begin in a matter of months but at that point these will be the most advanced fighters in the world."

(I guess Goebbels is referring to the Ta-152 and the Ta-154)

14 March 1945:

"The Führer asserts that he was demanding the mass production of fast light bombers before the war; he was expecting these types - very similar to the Mosquito - to be effective in the bombardment of enemy cities. But like many of his orders, this was not executed."

22 March 1945:

"Fortunately our new jet fighters dont need high-octane aviation fuel. I am confident that we will soon solve the fuel crisis somehow...The Führer is outraged that our fighter pilots consider even good weather to be unsuitable for combat. They are coming up with newer excuses to keep avoiding combat. The reason is that the Luftwaffe is thoroughly corrupt and it is so because its leader is corrupt himself."

Deadmeat313
01-12-2007, 04:13 AM
Interesting stuff. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


~S~

T.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." --- Jack Handey

WOLFMondo
01-12-2007, 04:33 AM
I don't know how an FW190A8 with 2x30mm, 2X20mm and 2X12.7mm isn't a heavy armament. Compared with any aircraft even flying now thats pretty 'heavy'.

Even standard 4x20mm and 2X12.7mm is more potent than most allied aircraft. Only the Tempest V Series II came close or bettered.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers!!

carguy_
01-12-2007, 04:57 AM
Wonder what Udet and Molders suggested.

Goebbels did not care much for enemy fighters it seems.Even if Germans were able to produce heavily armed fighter such as the Focke Wulf190,they generally did not do well compensating the weight penalty with engine power.Obviously Me262 and Me163 are different cases but that is late 1944.

Enemy fighters were a force to be reckoned with.Huge losses of Luftwaffe,at least in the west,were due to fighter cover and fighter raids such as P51,Spitfires,even the P38.

It is known that forcing pilots to fly with wing gondolas on the 109 really made`em sitting ducks.If the Luftwaffe wanted to win airwar,it had to have a major positive K/D ratio,something like 20-30 to 1.

Maschinenkanone MK108 was a very good compromise.Still only 60rounds a piece seems too few compared to hell one could cause with only two MG151/20(Dora for example).

If Luftwaffe had been able to dispatch Dora/Ta152C-H groups in good numbers to oppose bomber raids with good tactics thing could have looked different.Dora as an elite fighter,Tank as heavily armed high performance bomber killer.

Interesting how this compares to Me262.If all the major problems with it were fixed,LW should have done very good.

Lots of food for thought here.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WOLFMondo
01-12-2007, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:

Goebbels did not care much for enemy fighters it seems.Even if Germans were able to produce heavily armed fighter such as the Focke Wulf190,they generally did not do well compensating the weight penalty with engine power.

I disagree. The weight gain on the Antons was more minimal than probably on any other single engined aircraft throughout the war. The Antons only gained something like 300KG in weight between the A3 and A9 but gained 400HP.

The problem with the Focke Wulf was lack of high altitude supercharger/turbo (an associated materials to build them) to give it the performance where it needed it but its weight gain was minimal.

Remember it started out as a very high performance aircraft, even the first versions have peformance comparable to late war F6F's which is impressive to say the least!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers!!

noace
01-12-2007, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
Wonder what Udet and Molders suggested.


Hi!

Moelders thought that the MG151/15 (the 15 mm one) is enough for a fighter (+ the two MG17 as used in the BF109 F2). Galland actually disagreed with him and personally used a modified version with 20 mm wing cannons.

noace

carguy_
01-12-2007, 05:49 AM
Oh that is quite strange since even in this game,given all the handicaps a players has,the MG151/15 +twin MG17 prove to be VERY ineffective on heavily armored and fabric based airframes.

Hard to imagine how one downs a Sturmovik firing with that even from point blank range and this was in 1941.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Self-proclaimed dedicated Willywhiner since July 2002
: Badsight.:"increased manouverability for bf-109s was satire" :
Please bring back 3.01 dots!

Rammjaeger
01-12-2007, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I don't know how an FW190A8 with 2x30mm, 2X20mm and 2X12.7mm isn't a heavy armament. Compared with any aircraft even flying now thats pretty 'heavy'.

Even standard 4x20mm and 2X12.7mm is more potent than most allied aircraft. Only the Tempest V Series II came close or bettered.

Goebbels is obviously referring to the Bf-109F and G, the types that still formed the backbone of the Luftwaffe fighter arm in 1944, not the Fw-190A.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"At last we are eye to eye with death. We must renounce all hopes of freaks and fortunes. Sacrifice to the last drop of blood is demanded of us. Surrender would paralyse and sap our race for generations." - Wehrmacht radio broadcast to German troops in Hungary, October 1944

waffen-79
01-12-2007, 09:22 AM
ok that does it, I know we have the Ar-234B and the Ta-152C

But I want a Me-410 (any typ) and the Ta-154(prototyp)


oh and the P-80A just to make some chaps happier around here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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RAF74_Raptor
01-12-2007, 10:59 AM
I find it funny like all dictators in the end Hitler blamed everyone else for his failures by trying to cover up that the order was not obeyed. Or that he suggested everything when in truth he was only a corpral in WWI

Cold_Gambler
01-12-2007, 11:19 AM
Interesting, I thought only entries from 42-43 (picked up a 1948 translation of those for $1.50 at a bookfair) and "final entries" of '45 had survived but Wikipedia indicates that in 1992 the rest were found in Russian archives.

Anyone know if the complete war years' (or 1932-'45) entries have been published in English?

DuxCorvan
01-12-2007, 02:40 PM
I've always wondered how such a smart guy like Goebbels -he was a master in the use of word effects on mass psychology- became so deceived and perverted by nazi doctrine as to dedicate all his genius to serve as the instrument of nazi regime's manipulation and propaganda, being himself the ultimate victim of his own mind twisting, which led him to devote fanatism and the destruction of his own life and all his family.

He's a true example of the tragic "fallen angel" and "dark side" kind of man.

Waldo.Pepper
01-12-2007, 02:49 PM
He was very well-informed about German internal politics

I think this is very debatable. He was perhaps better informed than some of his peers, but no one in the Nazi government was well informed.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

DuxCorvan
01-12-2007, 02:53 PM
The problem with late war Goebbels is that he finally got to believe his own lies. So, as it happens with Hitler, it is hard to know what really happened around him from what he wanted to happen.

When the III Reich started his fast collapse, all these megalomaniacs couldn't stand it and fled from reality, losing contact with it.

BlitzPig_DDT
01-12-2007, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
I've always wondered how such a smart guy like Goebbels -he was a master in the use of word effects on mass psychology- became so deceived and perverted by nazi doctrine as to dedicate all his genius to serve as the instrument of nazi regime's manipulation and propaganda, being himself the ultimate victim of his own mind twisting, which led him to devote fanatism and the destruction of his own life and all his family.

He's a true example of the tragic "fallen angel" and "dark side" kind of man.

That's overstating it just a bit. As bad as he was, at least he wasn't a commie.

I love how just being on the winning side of a war can erase your sins from history, to such an extent that even the few who learn of them dismiss them in favor of the losers who are the popular "bad guys" (even if they weren't the worst around).

But as for his intelligence and political stance - how can highly educated people, like engineers and coders, be leftist? It's a combination of emotion, environment, greed, laziness, and overall internal weakness.

I'd suspect that Goebbels was disaffected by the post Armistice situation in Germany just like everybody else. Along comes a person, and party, that turns things around for Germany - improves the economy, and restores national unity and pride. This is something that is incalculable in importance.

In this emotionalism it's easy to go along with scapegoat-ism. Futher, people like to be led (on the whole), and some people have a greater inner need to bow to a higher power than others. The charisma of the Nationalist movement would have been nearly overpowering to many.

And above all remember, the monster never sees the monster in the mirror. As you slowly get drawn in to this stuff, you no longer see it for what it is, no matter how book smart you are.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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RAF74_Raptor
01-12-2007, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
I've always wondered how such a smart guy like Goebbels -he was a master in the use of word effects on mass psychology- became so deceived and perverted by nazi doctrine as to dedicate all his genius to serve as the instrument of nazi regime's manipulation and propaganda, being himself the ultimate victim of his own mind twisting, which led him to devote fanatism and the destruction of his own life and all his family.

He's a true example of the tragic "fallen angel" and "dark side" kind of man.

I truly beleve that because Hitler took Germany after there loss of WW1 and turned that country around so quickly that not only did the entire country believe him that certain people possibly believed he was divine

RAF74_Raptor
01-12-2007, 02:56 PM
And above all remember, the monster never sees the monster in the mirror. As you slowly get drawn in to this stuff, you no longer see it for what it is, no matter how book smart you are.[/QUOTE]

Well Said Well Said indeed

Rammjaeger
01-13-2007, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He was very well-informed about German internal politics

I think this is very debatable. He was perhaps better informed than some of his peers, but no one in the Nazi government was well informed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

His importance began to grow in early 1943 when he became responsible for mobilising the civilian population for total war. In the last years of the war he truly became member of Hitler's close circle, as powerful as Martin Bormann. His power grew even more after the failed attempt at Hitler's life in July 1944.

Moreover, he was responsible for government propaganda. As anyone will tell you, propaganda is basically about spreading lies. To spread lies, you have to know the truth because that's what you have to suppress. And judging by his diary entries it seems safe to say that he was well-informed about certain hard facts throughout the war.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"At last we are eye to eye with death. We must renounce all hopes of freaks and fortunes. Sacrifice to the last drop of blood is demanded of us. Surrender would paralyse and sap our race for generations." - Wehrmacht radio broadcast to German troops in Hungary, October 1944

tigertalon
01-13-2007, 06:20 AM
?If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.?

Joseph Goebbels<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

Heavy_Weather
01-13-2007, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by RAF74_Raptor:
I find it funny like all dictators in the end Hitler blamed everyone else for his failures by trying to cover up that the order was not obeyed. Or that he suggested everything when in truth he was only a corpral in WWI

yep, and a funny mustache too!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif