PDA

View Full Version : Tip for online beginners from one.



sunflower1
03-01-2005, 10:02 AM
Zekes v Wildcats uses the Gulf of Finland map for a scenario that pits their usual planesets against each other. If you select red, you're given the option of defending a line of transports near your base or attacking a ground column near blue's base.

If you'd like a less-than-totally-frustrating way to get engaged with some better pilots and live long enough to actually learn something, choose red and fly cap for the transports.

The best way to attack the transports is to come in low and fast. It makes blue hard enough to spot that they are going to get to drop their bomb unless you shoot very, very well and make a timely intercept. Blue usually wins by sinking enough ships so you can count on them being fairly disciplined about keeping up the pressure.

Orbit in front of the transports at a low enough altitude that you can spot the dot coming in. BnZ. I've found I can stay alive for 15-20 minutes and get to engage 5-6 blues before somebody really good takes me out as an afterthought.

I'm getting gunnery practice I thought I'd never get.

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-01-2005, 10:54 AM
If I had to give a single piece of advice to Online-beginners, it would be to achieve at least 3-4k altitude and take the fastest plane available for your side.

Altitude = energy state and more altitude means your energy state is better than someone below you. Thus, YOU get to choose how to engage if at all. If things turn mildly bad...get out!

This can be elaborated more thoroughly, but most readers don't get past the third sentence.



TB

Tallyho1961
03-01-2005, 11:15 AM
I'm also quite new to online play and I am beginning to understand the principles of energy management especially the importance of altitude. Having said that, here's my question: at 3-4K (as suggested by TgDThunderbolt56 and Stiglr, in another thread) I rarely, if ever, see any aircraft moving down below unless I get a glimpse of some tracer. A winter map helps, but that's beside the point.

Anyway, by the time I come zooming down to set up my boom, the enemy a/c have very often disappeared - unless the tracer is constant enought for me to keep a fix on it. Maybe this is the way it's supposed to be and I just need more experience, but I would appreciate some enlightenment here.

On this topic, I was in a server the other day and a couple of pilots were discussing how poor visibilty is unless you can enable Perfect settings - which I am not able to, yet. Can this be the case: does Perfect mode greatly enhance the ability to spot far off a/c?

Or is my eyesight just bad.

sunflower1
03-01-2005, 11:19 AM
Well there's one mistake I'm making!

In that scenario I'm trying to stay low enough to be able to spot the incoming threat and defend the target. For whatever reason, I don't seem to be able to spot those dots from that altitude (3-4km) so I'm lower. In this particular scenario it is rare, in my experience, for blue to be above you over the transports. It seems like the particular logic of this scenario gives this little window in which to do what I described and I can practice rolling in on an intruder and then deciding what is the next maneuver that makes sense.

Just to show how good Thunderbolt's advice is, last night I followed Havok from take off and he did exactly what T-bolt suggested, although he wasn't in a position to defend the transports. I learned more in 15 minutes watching Havok tear up Ki's in his F4F than I have in any other 15 minutes online.

My tip also gives you an energy state advantage because the attacking pilot has left himself at low altitude in order to make a bomb run. Its only the logic of the scenario that puts him or her at that disadvantage and I just exploit that in my own little way. Its sorta like setting up something in QMB, except after blue has dropped his bomb he flies like a human instead of AI and you can start your noobish manuvering with a significant energy advantage, even choosing to simply zoom away if that's what seems right.

Am I making a mistake doing it this way?

Monson74
03-01-2005, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This can be elaborated more thoroughly, but most readers don't get past the third sentence.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How true. What was it you just wrote? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Monson74
03-01-2005, 01:04 PM
I find that THE most important skill a fighter pilot must master regardless of what plane he/she is flying is orientation in a hostile environment. Knowing where the enemy is is essential for your success & as a rule of thumb: If you can't see them - they're probably behind you! Keep your eyes open & look around all the time - up, down, left & right - scan the horizon constantly. I possess a complete lack of talent for dogfighting but I get most of my kills online by stalking people who don't pay attention or suffers from target fixation.

LuckyBoy1
03-01-2005, 10:33 PM
The Guide is life!... well, to an extent, virtual life at least! Read Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users.

F19_Ob
03-02-2005, 12:01 AM
Sunflower1 wrote:
Am I making a mistake doing it this way?

---------------------------------------------

Not nescessarily a mistake, but u clearly put yourself at risk. But that wasn't uncommon in RL either.
Many russian planes sneaked into Finnish territory on low altitudes to avoid accurate spotting. It was also sometimes impossible for the Finnish fighterpilots to find the intruders, even a bigger twinengined plane, against the forrest, although they had been informed of its location by groundspotters.

In such a situation as yours, it would be good to have some topcover that would draw the attention of nearby enemies and thus allow u to work below.
If the risk is worth it or not partly depends on your orders. To disobey orders as a russian pilot perhaps was more risky, not only for u but your entire family and perhaps relatives too.

While I generally favor altitude, its not always an advantage if u are in a very slow plane compared to the opposition.

My prefered attack on such slow planes at altitude is to dive far below him as soon as I have identifyed him, and then zoom up from below like a shark attacking sealions. In a late 109 usually one short burst is enough.
Olli and I used this tecnique in pairs and the nr two wingman lay around 5-700m behind and below the attacking leader, prepared for a secondary attack to finish off a damaged enemy or to be in a better position if the enemy happend to discover the attack and eveaded. Then the number two usually got him instead.

----------------------------------------------

Good or bad. sometimes we still end up low and perhaps slow, by accident or some other reason.

If one get attacked on the deck by a fighter with better energy its a good idea to try to even out the energystate between U.
The only way to do that is to conserve the speed u have and evade attacks with as little energyloss as possible.
If u think u can pull off a successful snapshot at the enemy after his attack, then go for it.
The other option is to, immediatly after the attack, dive down and hug the ground in order to get initial separation.
This may cause the enemy to lose sight of u, or if he finds u he hopefully must dive down to your level to catch u.
In this situation he no longer have the opportunity to remain unseen below your tail (since u are hugging the ground) and U only have to do wide slow turns to spot him behind and can do more agressive evasions since the Energystate are now more even.
From here the enemy will be more vulnerable to your counter-attacks and cant get out of your range fast like earlier.

-----------------------------------------


When I fly alone I prefer to be high, but in slower planes I prefer to be above and fairly close to clouds 500-1000m or so above) so I have somewhere to go in emergencies.
That have saved my butt many times.

my thoughts.

sunflower1
03-02-2005, 09:35 AM
Thanks for the reply Ob.

I don't have the excuse of being in a Russian plane on that one!

I take the mission goals seriously on each map, otherwise I'd be in a straight-up dogfight server. Red nearly always loses this one because blue can sink enough ships to win. If somebody isn't flying cap pretty close to the tankers, red loses rather quickly.

I didn't make up the tactic in this scenario myself, I copied Mortifera who was bringing down planes left and right. No ships, or only one ship, would be sunk while he was on the case but when he'd press an attack against the enemy base and nobody would take up the cap duty, very quickly the map would rotate! My conclusion was/is that if this were a r/l battle that the cap pilots would have orders to stay close to the transports and low enough to effect an interception. They'd probably have top cover, too, though in this case blue doesn't seem have enough planes or planning to require it.

I don't think I was ever shot down over the transports by a plane that had managed to circle above, always by planes that had dropped their bombs who had either A) suckered me into a turnfight or B) taken advantage of blue having 3-4-5 a/c attacking at once.

F19_Ob
03-02-2005, 10:00 AM
Russian, english or whatever doesn't matter.
They all did suicidal, or just dangerous tasks in unfavorable conditions, and often too.

Those Brittish sworfish pilots who went out to torpedo german battleships comes to mind.
They knew they wouldnt return but went anyway.
One of thousand stories.

So taking risks is normal and sometimes an absolute nescessity.

Stiglr
03-02-2005, 10:21 AM
As to "being too high to see": that's a fault of the game's visual system, and of the Finland map in particular. (too much insistence on eye candy, too little regard for physical truths) It is difficult to spot bogies below you, rather TOO difficult, but it's better to be up high and untouchable to the unseen dots, no? At any rate, historically and physics-wise, the advice is good. Altitude = LIFE.

sunflower1
03-02-2005, 10:45 AM
"but it's better to be up high and untouchable to the unseen dots, no? At any rate, historically and physics-wise, the advice is good. Altitude = LIFE."

YES. I agree. I know it was that way in real life and it sure is that way in the sim.

The problem I've encountered on the learning curve is that if I run into a better pilot at altitude in a situation that has no inherant logic to it other than "shoot the other fighter down" I don't last very long. I'm confident that will change and I put myself in those situations in order to make sure it will. If somebody out there who is really good would invite me into a 1 v 1 dogfight to school me some I'd appreciate it, but when I've gotten into those and the adept realizes he's just going to be teaching, I get three tries and I'm out. That's okay, I understand.

What I like about this map and tactic is that I LIVE LONGER. Its simply true. Sometimes half an hour or more in which I'm constantly engaging and getting engaged. I have RTB'd to get ammo on this map and I've never RTB'd to get ammo at any other time. It has everything to do with the layout of the map and the mission goals. The opposition arrives on the deck (carrying a bomb, no less) and I have an energy advantage. Each time I fly a session on this map I learn how to stretch that advantage longer. I can learn more if I'm not continually transitioning to the fight area just to find out that the next thing "up my sleeve" doesn't work. I think I'm being clear that this is an "artifact" of this situation, not general tactical advice, no?

Stiglr
03-02-2005, 01:19 PM
Sunflower wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The problem I've encountered on the learning curve is that if I run into a better pilot at altitude in a situation that has no inherant logic to it other than "shoot the other fighter down" I don't last very long. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that will always be a problem. If a pilot has an alt advantage over you, that's not good. Then, if he's a better, more experienced pilot, too, that's doubly bad. In such a case, you might want to change your goal from "turning the tables" to "getting away with your @rse in one piece". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

However, I think I can help ya out a little on Defensive Flying techniques. (http://www.naysayers.com/9jg52/defensive.htm) The .trk files are based on the original IL-2, so those probably won't work for you.... but the narrative still applies.

sunflower1
03-03-2005, 08:08 AM
Statement: "Hey, I've found a place where nobody is above me and I can dive in and shoot fish in a barrel."

Reply: "You're too low, climb and fight players you can't beat yet."

Thank you for the discussion, Ob.

joe3rd
03-04-2005, 08:22 PM
had been flying with all the mods for six months with no Online Air Kills.
Problem was weapons convergence distances where set to high set them low!!! start at 150m and work your way up!!!
From what info I've gathered from most people 200m-300m is max range for guns
was fustrating but the forums helped me figure it out thanks

Lucius_Esox
03-05-2005, 04:42 AM
It sounds as if you are doing the right things m8. Unfortunately "stick" time has to be put in. As so many have said b4 knowing a planes and how it flies against other planes is critical (one of the reasons why so many arguments about FM's on these boards btw http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) You can begin to do things that just didn't feel "safe" when you first start out because you know your plane can do em and the other chaps can't. I suppose a crash course with other good pilots would speed this process up, even quicker if they were actually helping you. In lieu of that keep doing what your doing imo, oh yeah and fly against the best you can if your ego can take it.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sunflower1
03-05-2005, 10:42 AM
I watched a very good pilot empty a server last night. He shot them down repeatedly in their '84's, 109's, '63's, Spits, etc. using, wait for it....a stuka and an IL-2!!!! How does 4,000 points using nothing but cr@planes against late war steel grab ya!!?

So there was this fantastic opportunity to learn at the hands of, well, a master, and they left in anger. ANGER. I would pay for an appointment to have this done to me!!

If you can be smarter than they were, you actually can get a pretty good lesson. But you have to be on the servers often for this to happen.

I may have been laughing too hard to have learned anything, unfortunately.

geetarman
03-05-2005, 01:49 PM
Here's one:

- Try not to wind up in front of enemy aircraft!
I'm actually serious. Most beginners have a real hard time avoiding overshoots. Try to always stay towards the rear quarter if the enemy.