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View Full Version : is PF a game? or flight simulation? trailer...



pterodactyl77
09-24-2004, 03:02 PM
Quick question--

The trailer states at the end of the flick that this is a "Game by Oleg Maddox".

Does that mean they are making it more arcade-like and less flight-simulator-like? Or is that just for promotional purposes?

I enjoy the "pseudo-realism"...

pterodactyl77
09-24-2004, 03:02 PM
Quick question--

The trailer states at the end of the flick that this is a "Game by Oleg Maddox".

Does that mean they are making it more arcade-like and less flight-simulator-like? Or is that just for promotional purposes?

I enjoy the "pseudo-realism"...

Kasdeya
09-24-2004, 03:12 PM
Dont read to far into that. Promotional most likely.

Simulations can be called games, games cant be simulations.

Atleast thats my opinion. Others may disagree.

Yellonet
09-24-2004, 03:18 PM
PF is going to be as much game and flight sim as FB. If you have no experience of FB or the original IL-2, let's just say; it's a very good mix.

9th_Spitin
09-24-2004, 03:18 PM
If a tree fell in the woods and no one was around to hear it, would it make a sound?

Damn well better be a sim, just upgraded the PC for it.

Maple_Tiger
09-24-2004, 03:24 PM
Game or Simulation?

It deppends on what settings you use.

Yes, it is for a promotional purpose.

VW-IceFire
09-24-2004, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pterodactyl77:
Quick question--

The trailer states at the end of the flick that this is a "Game by Oleg Maddox".

Does that mean they are making it more arcade-like and less flight-simulator-like? Or is that just for promotional purposes?

I enjoy the "pseudo-realism"... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't read too far into promotionalism.

VF15_Muto
09-24-2004, 06:14 PM
The answer to the question depends on what you're looking for...

If you seek WW2 air combat simulation, then PF will probably qualify as a simulator.

If you seek WW2 piloting simulation, of which the combat is only a small part of your total training and skills (like it was for the real aviators), then PF will probably be just a game.

S~!
VF15_Muto

Snootles
09-24-2004, 11:41 PM
If it ain't a game, I don't know what I've been plunking money down for. Games can aim to simulate something with accuracy. But that doesn't mean they are not games anymore. To divive games and sims into a dichotomy seems rather insular and snobbish. After all, we are havign fun, right?...

Fritzofn
09-25-2004, 03:55 AM
ill bet that we have a new simulation of the year titlae here, since game of the year is to go to HL2, D3 got wasted on about 100.000 scripted lines, FAAAR to many sripted sequances in that game

nearmiss
09-25-2004, 07:06 AM
Game or simulation...

A game

A good simulation would have

1) Navs
2) Comms
3) Weather that changes in flight
4) Topographic maps (without little toys planes flying on them)

The flight models and graphics are excellent, which might mislead some to think of it more as a simulation. I'd say it has a way to go as far as coming up to any kind of standard for a flight simulator. The offline AI are much improved over anything else I know of in a Propeller game/simulation http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

MSFT FS2004 beats it hands down as a flight simulator.

initjust
09-25-2004, 09:18 AM
Depends on how you define the two.

From what I have heard and seen (and based on my definitions of games and sims) PF will be game that will do an excellent job of 'simulating' what happened at the 'point of combat', and may do a fair (I rate this as only fair since it appears that it will have no way to simulate, in any realistic way, any kind of cross wind carrier take-off/landing experience) job of simulating what it was like to take-off and land on a carrier in the PTO.

However, it will be missing some absolutely critical (and extremely basic) elements regarding what is needed to be classified as a true WWII aircombat flight simulator of any theater.

That does not mean it won't be a lot of fun for everyone who is only interested in the point of combat experience and who is not particualarly concerned about really simulating 'realistic' wind conditions during carrier based take-offs and approach/landing sequences.

If you have no interest in delving into and exposing yourself to a total WWII PTO 'simulation' experience then PF will be a great game for you to buy and enjoy.

If you are interested in trying to simulate all major aspects of a total experience of ALL significant factors that a combat pilot in the PTO during WWII had to deal with and overcome in order to survive then PF will fall very short of earning the classification of a PTO simulator. It will simply be a pretty good game doing a great job of simulating a very small portion of the total PTO experience.

Snootles
09-25-2004, 10:03 AM
No, it sure isn't the Ultimate Simulation of Combat Aviation. It it were, you'd be able to fly as a copilot, navigator, radio operator, or flight engineer. I can wait on that one, wait until the day I am Emperor of the World and can use my imperial wealth to fund such ambitious games.

initjust
09-25-2004, 10:31 AM
Fact of the matter is, with exception of the copilot, you can already act as navigator, radio operator and/or flight engineer if you're interested in that level of realism (and with a bit of a stretch you could even act as a copilot if you wanted to). So, why would you be interested in taking a few steps backward?

However, since this level of immersion doesn't seem to suit you it really is, for you at least, a non-issue isn't it?

TAGERT.
09-25-2004, 10:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
Game or simulation...

A game

A good simulation would have

1) Navs
2) Comms
3) Weather that changes in flight
4) Topographic maps (without little toys planes flying on them)

The flight models and graphics are excellent, which might mislead some to think of it more as a simulation. I'd say it has a way to go as far as coming up to any kind of standard for a flight simulator. The offline AI are much improved over anything else I know of in a Propeller game/simulation http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't confuse a training tool with a simulation! A simulation is simply this

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=simulation
Attempting to predict aspects of the behaviour of some system
by creating an approximate (mathematical) model of it. This
can be done by physical modelling, by writing a
special-purpose computer program or using a more general
simulation package, probably still aimed at a particular kind
of simulation (e.g. structural engineering, fluid flow).
Typical examples are aircraft flight simlators or electronic
circuit simulators

and
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=simulator
a device that enables the operator to reproduce or represent under test conditions phenomena likely to occur in actual performance &lt;a driving simulator used to study behavior in highway emergencies

So as you can see that by definition this GAME consist of a SIMULATION of aerial combat in WWII.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
MSFT FS2004 beats it hands down as a flight simulator. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As far as a NAVIGATION training device it does.. But that is because FS2004 is trying to simulate NAVIGATION where as IL2 is trying to simulate WWII AIR COMBAT.

In short, IL2 is both.. It is a GAME that contains a simulation of WWII Air Combat.

Ruy Horta
09-26-2004, 03:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pterodactyl77:
I enjoy the "pseudo-realism"... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Create your own history...

A6M2s in early war schemes vs a day light low level B-29 combined with a USN strike from a Lex-class carrier, the americans still flying in Soviet flight gear. At one stage Japanese truck convoy being attacked on a road that cannot be longer than a mile.

Its 1942, 1944 with 1945 all combined in your own history.

The trailer shows more weak spots than strength. Most of us will enjoy the combination of AEP and PF just because of a number of new elements, but you'd be hard pressed to call this a dedicated stand alone Pacific combat sim (not if judged by its main peer - IL2/FB (ex. AEP).

LEXX_Luthor
09-26-2004, 04:04 AM
Life is a sim.
Life is a game.
Stanly is a moron, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex.
its a Xen thing

Longjocks
09-26-2004, 05:17 AM
I like the thingies that TAGERT was saying. "It is a GAME that contains a simulation of WWII Air Combat" is a sweet way of putting it.

It doesn't matter how real a particular flight sim is, I will always consider it a 'game' as long as I derive entertainment/fun out of it. The day it becomes a chore is the day I'll call it something else.

To the original question - if you've read any number of posts on this forum you'll know that the IL-2 community thrives on a certain anal retentiveness to realism down to the last bolt on any given airframe and the colour of the underwear worn by any WWII pilot on any given day. Nothing but screams of murder would come out of simplifying PF without retaining the realism IL-2 holds. I pity the developer who would have to answer to these famous armchair historians (I just love using that term).

nearmiss
09-26-2004, 08:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In short, IL2 is both.. It is a GAME that contains a simulation of WWII Air Combat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, it is a game that contains a simulation of WWII Air combat.

In short http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif it's a game.

christopher65
09-27-2004, 05:48 AM
Does it really matter what it is??? The main thing is its a whole load of fun for us all,no matter how serious we are about it!!!

fherathras
09-27-2004, 06:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pterodactyl77:
Quick question--

The trailer states at the end of the flick that this is a "Game by Oleg Maddox".

Does that mean they are making it more arcade-like and less flight-simulator-like? Or is that just for promotional purposes?

I enjoy the "pseudo-realism"... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Some people think to mutch! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

TAGERT.
09-27-2004, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
OK, it is a game that contains a simulation of WWII Air combat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactally.. Which is why you were wrong to say a good simulation would have..

1) Navs
2) Comms
3) Weather that changes in flight
4) Topographic maps (without little toys planes flying on them)

That is not the definition of a simulation.. That is the key components of a flight school training device that.. GET THIS! CONTAINS a SIMULATION!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
In short http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif it's a game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You say that as if it were a bad thing? One thing for sure, as far as simulations go, IL2 beats MSFT FS2004 hands down as a flight combat simulator.. As a mater of fact IL2 beat MS CFS1,2,3 hands down as a flight combat simulator too!

But if you want to fly the beam and talk to the tower then MSFT FS2004 does beat IL2 hands down as a flight school training device... But it i*is* a GAME too.

nearmiss
09-27-2004, 05:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
OK, it is a game that contains a simulation of WWII Air combat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactally.. Which is why you were wrong to say a good simulation would have..

1) Navs
2) Comms
3) Weather that changes in flight
4) Topographic maps (without little toys planes flying on them)

That is not the definition of a simulation.. That is the key components of a flight school training device that.. GET THIS! CONTAINS a SIMULATION!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
In short http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif it's a game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You say that as if it were a bad thing? One thing for sure, as far as simulations go, IL2 beats MSFT FS2004 hands down as a flight combat simulator.. As a mater of fact IL2 beat MS CFS1,2,3 hands down as a flight combat simulator too!

But if you want to fly the beam and talk to the tower then MSFT FS2004 does beat IL2 hands down as a flight school training device... But it i*is* a GAME too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we're talking to ourselves here. I don't think it's a bad thing, being a game.

I'm just http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif poking a little fun with lil' smilie thingys.

----------- http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

TAGERT.
09-27-2004, 06:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
I think we're talking to ourselves here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We? You got a french mouse in your pocket? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
I don't think it's a bad thing, being a game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good to hear.. In that you were comming off as if it was a bad thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
I'm just http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif poking a little fun with lil' smilie thingys. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And Im just pointing out that your definition of simulation was wrong.

nearmiss
09-27-2004, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
I think we're talking to ourselves here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We? You got a french mouse in your pocket? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
I don't think it's a bad thing, being a game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good to hear.. In that you were comming off as if it was a bad thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
I'm just http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif poking a little fun with lil' smilie thingys. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And Im just pointing out that your definition of simulation was wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IT IS A GAME, if you call it a simulation you're painting with a very broad brush. Even the creator of it calls it a game. The advertising blurbs inject some verbiage about simulator...just click on the link to pre-order pacific fighters above to see the blurb. UbiSoft describes a game.

Here is the content:

Summary
The award-winning flight combat from Oleg Maddox€s IL-2 series moves the setting from the Eastern front to the fierce combat of the Pacific theater. Allied fighters and bombers square off against the notorious air power of the Japanese empire. For the first time, a large variety of British aircraft will be included along with U.S. and Australian planes. Target enemy ships, vehicles, airfields, and a host of
AI-controlled aircraft. Re-enact some of the most famous air battles of WWII in places like Pearl Harbor, Guadalcanal, and Iwo Jima.

Features
€ Fly a variety of WWII fighters and bombers. Fly for the U.S., Japan, Great Britain, and Australia in famous fighters including the F6F Hellcat, the deadly Japanese Zero, and the UK€s Supermarine Seafire. Flyable bombers such as the Aichi D3A1 Val, G4M2 Betty, SBD Dauntless, and A-20 Havoc are also included. More than 40 flyable aircraft models are available.
€ New! Game includes aircraft carriers. For the first time in the 1C: Maddox game series, players will have the option to take-off from, land on, and engage enemy aircraft carriers in combat.
€ Accessible to players of all skill levels. With its extensive tutorials and customizable settings, the game will appeal to both beginning and expert pilots. Nearly every level of realism and difficulty can be tuned to fit user tastes.
€ Award-winning IL-2-style combat-simulation gameplay. As with every product in the IL-2 series, Pacific Fighters offers unparalleled attention to detail. The smart AI, unequaled damage model, and sense of realism combine to immerse players like no other combat flight simulation.
€ Maps of the most famous battles of the Pacific. Sixteen new maps are included with famous historical locations such as Midway, Okinawa, Pearl Harbor, and Singapore. Wave movements on the beach, volumetric clouds, and thick vegetation are some of the visual attributes that are rendered in detail.
---------------------------------------

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">I liberally agree to calling it a game with undertones of a simulation.</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

TAGERT.
09-27-2004, 07:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
IT IS A GAME, if you call it a simulation you're painting with a very broad brush. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It is a SIMULATION! By definition! Nothing broad brush about that! Yet it is also a game.. In short it is BOTH! Kind of like saying a TRUCK is a VEHICLE.. It is both!

The only thing broad here is your incorrect definition of the word simulation. Your saying simulation but describing a specific type of training device use to teach pilots how to navigate and talk to the tower to get clearance and etc by simulating those aspects.

rhamm
09-27-2004, 08:53 PM
Ok so then lets call it a gamulation.

TAGERT.
09-27-2004, 09:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhamm:
Ok so then lets call it a gamulation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok.. and Ill call my DODGE 3500 a TRUICLE.. NOT! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

starfighter1
09-28-2004, 11:53 PM
hi,
here a or render(by LightWave) mpeg file from jap. design team of 2002...
more real things at design than in any FB or PF Hollywood trailer...
click..42/+45 files..

http://www.angel.ne.jp/~tochy/

WUAF_Badsight
09-29-2004, 01:30 AM
the key to maintaining a long standing enjoyment in FB is too . . . . .

forget about history & wether FB is a sim of history

game the game

(but Spitfire players are still cheap http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

WUAF_Badsight
09-29-2004, 01:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
_<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">I liberally agree to calling it a game with undertones of a simulation.</span>_ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

eheheh well put

609IAP_Recon
09-29-2004, 05:41 AM
wonder what BoB will be?

If we added more complex startup senario, engine failures (even better, failures of different systems), complex changing weather, randomly jammed machine guns, etc...

Course, I'd be wore out before I even reached a combat zone http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would welcome all this personally - but then again, I fly full real and 80% of our community flies with externals, etc...

I suspect it's a game because of how it's played more than how it's made.

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-29-2004, 02:42 PM
Game:
#1. An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime.
#2. A competitive activity or sport in which players contend with each other according to a set of rules:


Simulation:
1. The act or process of simulating.
2. An imitation; a sham.
3. Assumption of a false appearance.
4. Imitation or representation, as of a potential situation or in experimental testing.
5. Representation of the operation or features of one process or system through the use of another: computer simulation of an in-flight emergency.

If you want to get technical it about it, I suppose one could it is a little bit of both. I always felt it was hard to really simulate anything while sitting in a swivel chair with your feet propped up drinking a soda and staring at a monitor. Simulators are what real pilots use. And they hardly use a PC title for that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

This is a simulation http://www.simuflite.com/video/rvlanding/landing3.ram
(need real player)

IMO ofcoarse http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
=S=

Earwicker
09-29-2004, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Game:
1. An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime.

Simulation:
4. Imitation or representation <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There you go, it meets both definitions. A simulation is an activity that represents another activity by a variety of means - it doesn't have to be 100% accurate and it doesn't have to be a 100% "literal" represntation.

Playing Sim City is a very different activity from being an actual urban planner, nonetheless it is completely accurate to say that Sim City simulates the process of urban planning.

The same goes for flight sims like PF - they provide entertainment, and they also represent flight.

They don't represent every aspect of flight - nor do they portray everything with 100% accuracy - but neither of these are requirements for being a simulator.

PBNA-Boosher
09-29-2004, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 9th_Spitin:
If a tree fell in the woods and no one was around to hear it, would it make a sound?

Damn well better be a sim, just upgraded the PC for it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If a man is standing in the middle of nowhere with no woman around to hear him, and he says something, is he still wrong?


Anyway. I consider a PF to be anything. FOr the Hardcore guys it is a sim, but for the average guy tht likes to take off the realistic features for fun, that's a game.