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View Full Version : Oleg, ATI X1800 sm3 vertex texture fetch workaround?



Urufu_Shinjiro
10-09-2005, 11:24 AM
Oleg, I am usually one that supports your position of spending as little time as possible on the Il2 series and focusing on BoB. This time tho I really hope you will take the time to addres this issue. I hope the workaround is not too difficult to implement. I'm sure there are many of us who would love to get water=3 on the X1800 and I hope there can be a patch to fix this. Thank you for your time.

P.S. PLEASE do not turn this into a fanboy flame war people, this was a sincere request to oleg, not an invitation to discuss which card is better.

Brain32
10-09-2005, 03:41 PM
BUMP to support http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Willey
10-09-2005, 04:46 PM
Do you have such a card already and it doesn't work? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Urufu_Shinjiro
10-09-2005, 06:15 PM
Here's a link that will help explain what I'm talking about. http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/49310655/m/9461020563 I don't know exacly what happens with this card and this game but I would assume there would be a problem, maybe we'll be lucky and there won't be, but I doubt it.

hobnail
10-09-2005, 06:36 PM
They stop teaching how to use "?" in schools have they?

Your topic could sorely use one.

HelSqnProtos
10-09-2005, 07:24 PM
S~!

Full bump in support of the thread. To the other posters, please take your attempst to increase you postcount elsewhere.

ManicGibber
10-09-2005, 07:56 PM
Because ATI chose not to add SM3 hardware in their core this becomes an issue for Oleg to spend time creating a workaround, I for one would rather see AI behaviour improved?

HelSqnProtos
10-09-2005, 10:05 PM
But he is supposed to fix the nvidia driver prob lem right???

Urufu_Shinjiro
10-10-2005, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by ManicGibber:
Because ATI chose not to add SM3 hardware in their core this becomes an issue for Oleg to spend time creating a workaround, I for one would rather see AI behaviour improved?

Originally posted by HelSqnProtos:
But he is supposed to fix the nvidia driver prob lem right???

Manic, I asked you not to do this sort of thing. Protos, While I appreciate and agree with your comeback, please don't respond to this sort of thing because it is also what I asked not to happen.

Thank You for your cooperation.

ManicGibber
10-10-2005, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by HelSqnProtos:
But he is supposed to fix the nvidia driver prob lem right???

Actually, No he is not. I have sent E-mail to Nvidia to ask them to look into a fix for the missing textures, which is a software bug as far as I understand. The SM3 issue is a hardware decision taken by ATI and not a bug, yes?

PS. I tried not to make my post a "this card is better than that card" kind of post and well quite frankly thats exactly what I achieved, I really wish not to be argumentative however now it appears that this is not the case http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Nubarus
10-11-2005, 01:46 AM
If Oleg would look into this issue then both ATI and Nvidia users will bennefit from this.

So I don't really understand your initial response ManiacGibber.....

Poster by Hunter82:

"The primary reason for game developers in general for not using SM3 prefetch is the horrible performance in the usage of it.

The reason you all get very low performance in SM3 is from the prefetch. Not due to required textures blah blah blah.If Oleg were to code the water without a prefetch both NV and ATI users would get a major performance increase.

NV and it's user can rejoice all they want about prefetch in .00001% of the games made but the simple fact is SM3 performance suffers when prefetching is used.

NV wouldn't have to optimize the **** out of their drivers either using displaced AA and AF to get a increase in shaders performance or missing textures in perfect in PF"

I would love to have this looked at by 1C Maddox.

Urufu_Shinjiro
10-11-2005, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Nubarus:
If Oleg would look into this issue then both ATI and Nvidia users will bennefit from this.

So I don't really understand your initial response ManiacGibber.....

Poster by Hunter82:

"The primary reason for game developers in general for not using SM3 prefetch is the horrible performance in the usage of it.

The reason you all get very low performance in SM3 is from the prefetch. Not due to required textures blah blah blah.If Oleg were to code the water without a prefetch both NV and ATI users would get a major performance increase.

NV and it's user can rejoice all they want about prefetch in .00001% of the games made but the simple fact is SM3 performance suffers when prefetching is used.

NV wouldn't have to optimize the **** out of their drivers either using displaced AA and AF to get a increase in shaders performance or missing textures in perfect in PF"

I would love to have this looked at by 1C Maddox.

Now that I haven't seen. I wonder how much it would take to remove the prefetch stuff, it sounds like a serious graphic engine rebuild though.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

ManicGibber
10-12-2005, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Nubarus:
If Oleg would look into this issue then both ATI and Nvidia users will bennefit from this.

So I don't really understand your initial response ManiacGibber.....

Poster by Hunter82:

"The primary reason for game developers in general for not using SM3 prefetch is the horrible performance in the usage of it.

The reason you all get very low performance in SM3 is from the prefetch. Not due to required textures blah blah blah.If Oleg were to code the water without a prefetch both NV and ATI users would get a major performance increase.

NV and it's user can rejoice all they want about prefetch in .00001% of the games made but the simple fact is SM3 performance suffers when prefetching is used.

NV wouldn't have to optimize the **** out of their drivers either using displaced AA and AF to get a increase in shaders performance or missing textures in perfect in PF"

I would love to have this looked at by 1C Maddox.

The context of my initial response was that I would rather Oleg spend time making the AI work better and let Nvidia and ATI sort out their own issues.

HelSqnProtos
10-13-2005, 09:56 PM
Bump for the original Post.

Can we get ATI support please Oleg.

lbhskier37
10-16-2005, 07:35 PM
It would be nice because then I would actually have a choice for my next graphics card. It is pretty disappointing on ATIs part. Although it is an optional feature in SM3, it doesn't make much sense to me leaving features out that your direct competitor is using, especially since they are required in one of the very few games that actually use SM3. But if it would take a rewrite of a lot of code I don't see it being worth it. There is one simple way around it, and that is not buying ATI hardware until they get their act together a bit. The drop in sales for Nvidia when they went through their NV30 junk phase seemed to get them to pull together, maybe if people bought with their head instead of their hearts(this means you fanboys of both sides) companies wouldn't put out paper launches and subpar products.

HelSqnProtos
10-16-2005, 07:51 PM
S~!

Conversely, if 1c didn't decide or (get paid) to use a coding method that no one else is using and that was not specifically optimized for one product manufacterer --- maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion. Also Water 3 is still not really playable on a single 7800 and SLI with a pair of 7800s in perfect is still micro stutter hell. Not to mention the rest of the driver issues.

Perhaps if stupidity like "Nvidia the way it was meant to be played" was not a factor in coding decisions we could all be enjoying high quality water ???

This from Hunter82 http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/49310655/m...091095563#4091095563 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/49310655/m/1341089463/r/4091095563#4091095563)


Originally posted by Hunter82:
Games in general 99.9999% PF being the .00001 do not use 3m3 prefetch. Oleg could easily code it to allow ATI to use water 3 if he so desires.

lbhskier37
10-16-2005, 08:19 PM
You can't really post any blame towards 1c for coding to use Nvidias version of SM3 because that is all that was out there at the time. No one outside of 1c and maybe Nvidia knows why water 3 was coded this certain way, it may have been the easiest way for 1c to code it with thier limited resources, remember PF was originally a 3rd party side project. I'm guessing Nvidia probably gave them a bit of money to impliment this feature, and maybe it was the best way to do it on the NV40, which at the time was the only SM3 capable hardware out there. What needs to be done in the future is for the people in charge of OpenGL and DirectX specifications to stop with these "optional" features and have one set in stone specification that manufactures and software developers can follow. From reading Olegs comments in the simhq forums regarding this, it seems like this issue is as dead as FW cockpit bar. Its a shame because the X1000 series looks like a pretty promising set of hardware.

VW-IceFire
10-16-2005, 08:46 PM
*notes that this is another one of those threads thats always addressed to oleg*

Right, with that over...Oleg already spoke on the issue and I think the key point to take away from this is the following. Development on the IL-2 engine is over except for some content additions (welcomed and thankful for that here!). Development on the BoB engine will likely steer it in a direction that supports both engines.

While most are too shortsighted to see it...the next game is what we should be clamoring about. If you REALLY REALLY REALLY want SM3.0 stuff in the PF engine...go by an nVidia card and fight with the texture issues. Or buy an ATI and fight with no prefetch.

I was sort of annoyed at a missing feature and not 100% SM3.0 support but after Hunter put things into perspective my thinking changed.

HelSqnProtos
10-16-2005, 11:43 PM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">S~!

It is pretty common knowledge that Oleg and the Dev Team will be providing a 'fix' for the nvidia driver issue. And make no mistake, that is what the problem is/was -- it is A NVIDIA DRIVER ISSUE. Not a sim issue.

I fail to see how Oleg should find the time to satisfy Nvidia owners but leave ATI card owners holding their high end cards in their hands. Ati has put out a very very high quality card. One with the release of the new Open GL Tool in the next driver version that may soon prove to be even faster than a 7800 in this sim - With a higher Image Quality to boot.

We already have proof from the most respected Hardware guru in the sim Hunter82 that it would be an "easy" fix. That then leaves the Pilots and ATI owners only one logical conclusion. He won't program for them because it is a "business" issue. ie/ Nvidia paid them.

That is unfair to ATI cardholders in my opinion. I venture to say MANY MANY ATi people will agree.

Nvidia put out a good Hardware part. Unfortunately they failed TO FOLLOW UP WITH PROPER SOFTWARE SUPPORT. And their customers suffered with cards that were not to advertised performance. The community demanded a "Fix" -- One is forthcoming.

Oleg stepped in and saved the day.-- BRAVO OLEG -- I APPLAUD YOU SIR. Even though I am an Ati owner I thank you.

HOWEVER Mr. Maddox Sir. I fail to see why ATI owners of equal or better hardware should not recieve the same courtesy from you and your team.</span>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Can you?</span>

NerdConnected
10-18-2005, 03:26 PM
HelSqnProtos,

Maybe if we ask ATI nicely to support Maddox to get this fixed. With some funding of ATI maybe they can show how 'SM3 done right'. It problably would'nt take a lot of time when ATI helps them or does it for them ;-)

It's a shader program afterall, so I guess ATI can rewrite Nvidia's one and can try to make it compatible to the game's code. ATI can show off their new hardware, IL2 get's broader hardware support and we get what we want ;-)

I think, when running water=3 with ATI 1k, I've got the feeling we will see double fps. ATI's latest cards have some serious horsepower.

Shall we ask ATI? IL2 is here to stay for at least another year or so, so it's a viable option ;-)

Mark

VW-IceFire
10-18-2005, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by HelSqnProtos:
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">S~!

It is pretty common knowledge that Oleg and the Dev Team will be providing a 'fix' for the nvidia driver issue. And make no mistake, that is what the problem is/was -- it is A NVIDIA DRIVER ISSUE. Not a sim issue.

I fail to see how Oleg should find the time to satisfy Nvidia owners but leave ATI card owners holding their high end cards in their hands. Ati has put out a very very high quality card. One with the release of the new Open GL Tool in the next driver version that may soon prove to be even faster than a 7800 in this sim - With a higher Image Quality to boot.

We already have proof from the most respected Hardware guru in the sim Hunter82 that it would be an "easy" fix. That then leaves the Pilots and ATI owners only one logical conclusion. He won't program for them because it is a "business" issue. ie/ Nvidia paid them.

That is unfair to ATI cardholders in my opinion. I venture to say MANY MANY ATi people will agree.

Nvidia put out a good Hardware part. Unfortunately they failed TO FOLLOW UP WITH PROPER SOFTWARE SUPPORT. And their customers suffered with cards that were not to advertised performance. The community demanded a "Fix" -- One is forthcoming.

Oleg stepped in and saved the day.-- BRAVO OLEG -- I APPLAUD YOU SIR. Even though I am an Ati owner I thank you.

HOWEVER Mr. Maddox Sir. I fail to see why ATI owners of equal or better hardware should not recieve the same courtesy from you and your team.</span>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Can you?</span>
I think its an unfair comparison.

The one issue is obviously an image quality bug where textures are not being rendered correctly. The other is a shader implementation choice made by the developer.

The two are quite different.

I think I'd be great...but I don't see the line of reasoning. Maybe I misunderstand?

lbhskier37
10-18-2005, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by NerdConnected:
HelSqnProtos,

Maybe if we ask ATI nicely to support Maddox to get this fixed. With some funding of ATI maybe they can show how 'SM3 done right'. It problably would'nt take a lot of time when ATI helps them or does it for them ;-)

It's a shader program afterall, so I guess ATI can rewrite Nvidia's one and can try to make it compatible to the game's code. ATI can show off their new hardware, IL2 get's broader hardware support and we get what we want ;-)

I think, when running water=3 with ATI 1k, I've got the feeling we will see double fps. ATI's latest cards have some serious horsepower.

Shall we ask ATI? IL2 is here to stay for at least another year or so, so it's a viable option ;-)

Mark

I seriously doubt we could get ATI to do anything themselves. They are having plenty of issues of their own right now with late/paper launches, taking flak for slashing warantees, and big financial losses, I doubt they would spend their own time and money to support a game with such a small following relative to their big moneymakers like HL2 and Doom3. And if anyone remembers how long it took to get descent drivers that worked in perfect mode in the 9800 days(I do, it got pretty old waiting through driver updates that helped everything but IL2 for months on end), kinda makes me laugh when all the ATI fanboys brag about how Nvidia drivers are terrible and ATIs have always been so great, selective memory me thinks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

NerdConnected
10-18-2005, 04:12 PM
lbhskier37,

I had a 9700Pro and cannot remember having troubles back then with perfect mode. When I saw shader3 for Pacific Fighters and how great it looked, I bought a 6800U. Not a fanboy here, just want the fastest hardware...

When I look at the X1800 series and see how much processing power it has (e.g. gpgpu.org), it would be a bit of a let down if we can not use it fully for this great game.

The X1800X[T|L] has enough power to run this game in perfect mode with water=3 with high fps. If it's a minor fix and ATI can help, why not ask?

Anyway, I've sent a humble request to ATI to support this game. One can always ask ;-)

Mark

HelSqnProtos
10-18-2005, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HelSqnProtos:
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">S~!

It is pretty common knowledge that Oleg and the Dev Team will be providing a 'fix' for the nvidia driver issue. And make no mistake, that is what the problem is/was -- it is A NVIDIA DRIVER ISSUE. Not a sim issue.

I fail to see how Oleg should find the time to satisfy Nvidia owners but leave ATI card owners holding their high end cards in their hands. Ati has put out a very very high quality card. One with the release of the new Open GL Tool in the next driver version that may soon prove to be even faster than a 7800 in this sim - With a higher Image Quality to boot.

We already have proof from the most respected Hardware guru in the sim Hunter82 that it would be an "easy" fix. That then leaves the Pilots and ATI owners only one logical conclusion. He won't program for them because it is a "business" issue. ie/ Nvidia paid them.

That is unfair to ATI cardholders in my opinion. I venture to say MANY MANY ATi people will agree.

Nvidia put out a good Hardware part. Unfortunately they failed TO FOLLOW UP WITH PROPER SOFTWARE SUPPORT. And their customers suffered with cards that were not to advertised performance. The community demanded a "Fix" -- One is forthcoming.

Oleg stepped in and saved the day.-- BRAVO OLEG -- I APPLAUD YOU SIR. Even though I am an Ati owner I thank you.

HOWEVER Mr. Maddox Sir. I fail to see why ATI owners of equal or better hardware should not recieve the same courtesy from you and your team.</span>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Can you?</span>
I think its an unfair comparison.

The one issue is obviously an image quality bug where textures are not being rendered correctly. The other is a shader implementation choice made by the developer.

The two are quite different.


<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Its not unfair or different at all.

If Oleg didn't step in to fix the issue with Nvidia the owners of those cards would still be suffering. (I am not sure if Water 3 and perfect is microstutter free yet)

If Oleg can take the time to code for Nvidia owners he can do the same for Ati card holders. Especially since we have already learned that he can easily do so if he chose to. It was not Oleg's fault that Nv drivers couldn't render the textures. It was a driver issue plain and simple.

You can try to obfuscate or seperate the issue any way you like, no favouritism should be shown. We all purchased his products and have every right to expect support for multiple hardware platforms. But if you think having NV should give your special consideration that is of course your right.



</span>

quiet_man
10-19-2005, 07:37 AM
@VW-IceFire

1. ATI left out the feature from Hardware because of terrible performance
2. They say there is a workaround

I would like to know:
Is 1. true?
How much work is 2.?

If 1. it true and 2. isn't to much work, than anyone would be happy. No point for nvidia users to complain.

quiet_man