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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:29 PM
A quick guide for those who need some help flying the P-47...

Use the razorback versions if you're new to the P-47. When you've mastered them, check the D-27 out. D-27 is not as stable, but dives & zoom climbs better than the razorback versions.

Get a wingman! Not always availible in most cases, but do what you can to stick around friendlies. If you end up in a fight where you're outnumbered, run away. P-47 can do about 500kmh at sea level (roughly 290-300mph).

Beware of the 1000lb bomb - its quite heavy for only a little bit more punch than the 500lbs.

Before you get into the fight, get to about 2000m or 3000m altitude (about 6,000-9,000ft on the cockpit indicator).

Best convergence is typically from 200m to 400m. You'll want to set both cannons and machine guns to this value (it was recently found out that both settings do in fact modify the convergence of both pairs of guns).

When you get closer than your convergence is set for, try to align one bank of guns onto the target. (bring the target onto your left wing, etc.)

Use 50% fuel. 25% will get you by, but if you take damage, chances are you got a fuel leak with it. This results in you not having any chance to get home. 50% ensures you'll get home before all your fuel drains out.

Try to find Fw-190s to engage, especially the later variants. Fw-190s are hard to kill, but easy to outmanuver. Note that this is limited in the horizontal plane; the vertical plane, you'll loose every time.

Use combat flaps in turns below 410kmh. Do not extend flaps lower than that at speeds above 290kmh.

When in a head-on match or attacking bombers, position yourself so that their fire will hit along the top of the engine rather than the chin. Your oil coolers are in your chin, and are apparently very easy to hit. I've survived head-ons with mk108 equipped Fw-190A9s because they did not hit the chin of my P-47.

When attacking ground targets, attack from a 30-45 degree angle and from the rear. You'll do maximum damage with minimal amount of ammunition spent.

Thats all for now... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:29 PM
A quick guide for those who need some help flying the P-47...

Use the razorback versions if you're new to the P-47. When you've mastered them, check the D-27 out. D-27 is not as stable, but dives & zoom climbs better than the razorback versions.

Get a wingman! Not always availible in most cases, but do what you can to stick around friendlies. If you end up in a fight where you're outnumbered, run away. P-47 can do about 500kmh at sea level (roughly 290-300mph).

Beware of the 1000lb bomb - its quite heavy for only a little bit more punch than the 500lbs.

Before you get into the fight, get to about 2000m or 3000m altitude (about 6,000-9,000ft on the cockpit indicator).

Best convergence is typically from 200m to 400m. You'll want to set both cannons and machine guns to this value (it was recently found out that both settings do in fact modify the convergence of both pairs of guns).

When you get closer than your convergence is set for, try to align one bank of guns onto the target. (bring the target onto your left wing, etc.)

Use 50% fuel. 25% will get you by, but if you take damage, chances are you got a fuel leak with it. This results in you not having any chance to get home. 50% ensures you'll get home before all your fuel drains out.

Try to find Fw-190s to engage, especially the later variants. Fw-190s are hard to kill, but easy to outmanuver. Note that this is limited in the horizontal plane; the vertical plane, you'll loose every time.

Use combat flaps in turns below 410kmh. Do not extend flaps lower than that at speeds above 290kmh.

When in a head-on match or attacking bombers, position yourself so that their fire will hit along the top of the engine rather than the chin. Your oil coolers are in your chin, and are apparently very easy to hit. I've survived head-ons with mk108 equipped Fw-190A9s because they did not hit the chin of my P-47.

When attacking ground targets, attack from a 30-45 degree angle and from the rear. You'll do maximum damage with minimal amount of ammunition spent.

Thats all for now... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:37 PM
thats great stuff..ill have to try it out.. btw i had no idea that the Mg and cannon convergence where both for the P47..that makes a big difference, glad i know now.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:06 AM
Big thanks Korolov!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I too didn't know that both MG and cannon convergence affected the P-47. Thanks,I learned a few things..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:59 AM
I already do most of this in the Jug, but I would recommend an altitude of 3000+ instead of 2000+ as it takes the added altitude to reach maximum dive speeds and you're much more likely to be above your competition at that height.





http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:10 AM
Korolov wrote:

-

-
- Try to find Fw-190s to engage, especially the later
- variants. Fw-190s are hard to kill, but easy to
- outmanuver.


HEY! I take this personally! Look for more A8/A9 deuls with me Korolov! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Seriously, nice post, very informative and positive. The D-10 is a great fighter especially in packs.

S!

faust

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:22 AM
Salute! to all P47 aces.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:24 AM
faustnik wrote:
- HEY! I take this personally! Look for more A8/A9
- deuls with me Korolov!

You do see my point though... Fw-190s are very snappy! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Then again, so is the P-47. But I've never really had a problem with the Fw-190 in the horizontal.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:26 AM
Thunderbolt56 wrote:
- I already do most of this in the Jug, but I would
- recommend an altitude of 3000+ instead of 2000+ as
- it takes the added altitude to reach maximum dive
- speeds and you're much more likely to be above your
- competition at that height.

2000 is the absolute minimum; 3000 is highly recommended, but the point is, below 2000, you won't be able to do much. I'd even say wait till you're at 5000, but that does take some time.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 02:13 AM
Korolov wrote:
- Thunderbolt56 wrote:
-- I already do most of this in the Jug, but I would
-- recommend an altitude of 3000+ instead of 2000+ as
-- it takes the added altitude to reach maximum dive
-- speeds and you're much more likely to be above your
-- competition at that height.
-
- 2000 is the absolute minimum; 3000 is highly
- recommended, but the point is, below 2000, you won't
- be able to do much. I'd even say wait till you're at
- 5000, but that does take some time.
-


Agreed! ~S~!

http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:20 PM
all of you guys are waaay too low

3000 .... pffft

i know Jug experts online , they would disagree with a lot here

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:28 PM
Was going to say the same thing badsight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif wauf 56th[list=1] jambocks AFJ all great FB jug pilots. 7000 to 9100 bnz enemies at 4-6000 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif 50% to 100% fuel and here the hiss of the 8 bb guns strenght .50s

<center>http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/LS1.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 06:12 AM
I just thought i'd add some of my own tips and suggestions, based on my experiences in the P-47.



Korolov wrote:

- Use the razorback versions if you're new to the
- P-47. When you've mastered them, check the D-27 out.
- D-27 is not as stable, but dives & zoom climbs
- better than the razorback versions.

Although I strongly suggest using the Razorback versions, i think it's hard to learn when your new (only due to the gunsights). Also, i have found, nothing: not a single thing, better about the D-22 and the D-27, compared to the D-10. The D-27 seems beyond use almost, and i don't mean to call you a liar, but there is no way the D-27 maintains E better than the D-10, as it is slower in the horizontal plain (at least: as far as accelleration goes, and i'm 95% sure that this applies to top speed as well) The lack of bomb racks on the D-10 gives it better zoom climb, and less drag (thus better E retention). Also, the D-27 can only be fairly effective in limited situations, such as:
1) when you are above 8k
2) when the bandit you're diving on doesn't know you're coming
3) when your wingman, or an ally, is dragging.
My real gripe with the P-47 D-27, is it's horrible roll rate, and i never did like the bomb racks /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


- Get a wingman! Not always availible in most cases,
- but do what you can to stick around friendlies. If
- you end up in a fight where you're outnumbered, run
- away. P-47 can do about 500kmh at sea level (roughly
- 290-300mph).


Absolutely correct... Flying without a wingman in a P-47 (any model) is often an exercise in feutility. If you are in a situation where you have no wingman, be VERY picky about when you engage. Only engage the largest threat (highest bandit most often). Also, before deciding on a target, look to see if there is anyone that you think you can get going straight and level, and won't see you coming, as opposed to in a dogfight. The element of suprise is second only to your alttitude.


- Before you get into the fight, get to about 2000m or
- 3000m altitude (about 6,000-9,000ft on the cockpit
- indicator).


Though you're right, that 2000 is the absolute lowest you can fly, i would STRONGLY suggest not engaging in the initial attack, any lower than 5k. The reason for this is simple: if you dive all the way to the deck, and try to climb back up, you will ineveitibly lose between 1 and 2km alttitude (the lower you dive, the more zoom climb you lose, due to air density and sub-par low alt. performance).

As a side note: 1,000 meteres = 3,300 feet. I found it helpfull to make a chart of convergences for 6,000 7,000 and 9,000 meters, as those are the alttitudes where i change my mixture (80, 60, and 40%... respectively).


- Best convergence is typically from 200m to 400m.
- You'll want to set both cannons and machine guns to
- this value (it was recently found out that both
- settings do in fact modify the convergence of both
- pairs of guns).


Dependant upon your taste, you may wish to change up your convergence a little, or have it all set at the same number for more punch with the hits (I personally have both MG's and Cannon settings at 400meters). Some people find it helpfull, and entirely effective to set their convergences at something like 350m and 325m, so there is a better chance of hitting on one of the convergence marks. Either way works well.

- When you get closer than your convergence is set
- for, try to align one bank of guns onto the target.
- (bring the target onto your left wing, etc.)


Excellent point, i sometimes forget that myself.


- Use 50% fuel. 25% will get you by, but if you take
- damage, chances are you got a fuel leak with it.
- This results in you not having any chance to get
- home. 50% ensures you'll get home before all your
- fuel drains out.


Also, 50% fuel will make your plane a bit heavier, thereby 1) a more stable gunnery platform, and
2) a bit faster in a dive


- Use combat flaps in turns below 410kmh. Do not
- extend flaps lower than that at speeds above 290kmh.


I only suggest using Combat Flaps if you are on your own, and can't drag, or have your enemy dragged by a friendly. Speed is your righthand man... without it, P-47's are most often picked off. If you ABSOLUTELY must, do exactally what he said, but i only suggeset this against FW (at slow speeds) variants, as the P-47 can outturn little else in slow speed combat.


- When in a head-on match or attacking bombers,
- position yourself so that their fire will hit along
- the top of the engine rather than the chin. Your oil
- coolers are in your chin, and are apparently very
- easy to hit. I've survived head-ons with mk108
- equipped Fw-190A9s because they did not hit the chin
- of my P-47.


Interesting tip, and a good one at that. I love doing headons in my D-10, as it has reinforced glass plating in the front of the cockpit, so it's very hard to get PK'd in a headon. Also, it's armor and 8 .50's make it a terrible adversary. The only plane that i wouldn't suggest a headon against, are the FW variants, as even if you don't get damaged by them, you are very unlikely to cripple them. Otherwise, it's just a matter of wheter or not you are willing to risk it.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 06:15 AM
Wow, some one did their research!..

..but I just avoid fighters when flying jugs.

http://home.comcast.net/~ick_352nd/

http://home.comcast.net/~ick_352nd/icarus-sig.jpg


Message Edited on 10/27/0305:16AM by Ick_352nd

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 06:19 AM
Thx Lead, i've seen you in a Jug too m8. Always willing to wing if you're in the same room as me, S!

Juggs, UNITE!! (pun intended).

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 07:08 AM
jeez spill ya guts why dontcha Hero .... LOL :P

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 07:14 AM
Heh.... at least i didn't walk them through all of my tactics /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . There's lots to learn about the Jug.

Few exploits, many pitfalls...

Good bird when you don't find yourself doing the wrong thing though.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 07:17 AM
With out a doubt best prop in the game IMO and the only bird I fly 99.9999% of the time. Just ask her victims/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
S~

http://www.angelfire.com/ab4/airplanes/P47_Thunderbolt/P47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 07:26 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- Was going to say the same thing badsight /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif wauf
- 56th[list=1] jambocks AFJ all great FB jug pilots.
- 7000 to 9100 bnz enemies at 4-6000 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif 50% to 100%
- fuel and here the hiss of the 8 bb guns strenght
- .50s

There are plenty of good P-47 pilots out there, and will be for some time - it's virtually the only fighter most people know about, aside from the P-51.

Remember, I said 2000m as a absolute minimum. Not everybody has the patience to climb to 7000m or the eyesight to see something at that altitude.

Also, I don't know why you think the P-47 has 8 BB guns. They always seemed quite effective to me.

You want BB guns, you get a Hurricane mark I! Talk about peashooters! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 07:40 AM
Peashooters yes, but 12 of them... sweet jesus those things can be fun when you're burnt out on your fav. planes. !! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 08:26 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- Was going to say the same thing badsight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif wauf
- 56th[list=1] jambocks AFJ all great FB jug pilots.
- 7000 to 9100 bnz enemies at 4-6000 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif 50% to 100%
- fuel and here the hiss of the 8 bb guns strenght
- .50s
-
- <center>http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/LS1.txt
- Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't.
- (c) Leadspitter</center>


Ya...those guys are good and they may disagree, but Kor definitely knows how to fight in the Jug. You wouldn't want him on the other team.

D10 performs better but lacks the visibility provided by the D27 (Unless you're in.. *wince*.. arcade mode with open cockpit, of course). This is key for successful BnZ at the altitudes you're quoting.

Sure, the Jug rules at 8000m+. But who else flys up there? 2000 to 3000m minimum, is a compromise the FB Jug pilot has to make to see any action in the typical FB server.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 08:36 AM
I'm not going to go into tactics, as everyone's are different, and the like: sacred to themselves. There are plenty of ways that i exploit the Jug's high alt. performance.... most often against pilots flying less than 2k. It's more of a matter of SA (situational awareness), and what to do with what you're given. Just because you're at 8k, doesn't mean you have to dive from that high to attack. And btw: the P-47 (D-10 anyways) outruns most planes at 6k, and EVERY prop plane, and even the 262, over 8k.



Padron3000 wrote:
- D10 performs better but lacks the visibility
- provided by the D27 (Unless you're in.. *wince*..
- arcade mode with open cockpit, of course). This is
- key for successful BnZ at the altitudes you're
- quoting.


I have been flying the D-10 exculsively for about a month now (BnZ'ing for about a year), and i have had very few issues with the gunsights. Even in noob settings rooms, i refuse to fly with cockpit off. I was flying in the [MA] server today, and had a 7 kill sortie, using the D-10, with cockpit locked... Sry, but i disagree. Plus, you get the reinforced forward cockpit armor. I'd trade the visibility of the D-27 for the armor and performance of the D-10 in a heartbeat.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 04:02 PM
Nice thread in contraste to all whining about the rollrate of this kite.

Reminds me of a book I read some time ago "Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, The operational record by Jerry Scutts, Airlife Publishing Ltd.

The RL US pilots where as much whiners about this planes performance as the FB crowd...lol.

US pilots didn´t fancy the idea of converting from Spits and P-38s to Jugs, thinking in that plane they would be dead meat confronting the Germans.

It accually took a lot of work by one particular guy, Lt-Col Cass Hough, troubleshooting its problems.

He got the D.F.C for his "Independent flight research".

Lt-Col Hough showed the pilots how to use the jug and what to be aware of flying it.

The jug was´nt that superb plane in the WW2 as many claims it to have been. It was used as it let the pilot to use it.

Tactics being the main issue.

Zayets
10-27-2003, 04:12 PM
Jug squadrons?where to find?

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 05:31 PM
Interesting that we have 2 self proclaimed experts on a plane, differing on it's best uses and performance traits.

The funniest thing is that we aren't debating how the FM should be, we are debating how the FM *is*. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I've said many times that the D-27 did not seem to climb any better than the 10 or 22. After doing so Korolov proceeded to let the insults fly. Now others come in and say the same thing. Interesting....

Buzz_25th
10-27-2003, 06:19 PM
WUAF_Mj_Hero


You have 12 .50's on your Jug? I seem to have lost 4 of them../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 07:56 PM
When I have the time and the patience I'll take a D-10 up. Sometimes cruising around at 5-6k meters looking for targets gets a little boring. I like the visibilty of the D-27 but I've been spoiled by the handling of the D-10.

Let me sum it up to you this way.

I'm not to bad in a G2. One night I was flying around picking off whoever (a few P-39s and a hurricane) when I noticed a Dot about 3000 meters above our operating alt (2700meters)and a few miles out. (Full real settings with padlock)

I'd watch as this dot would swoop down let off a burst and send another dot smoking to the deck.

So I figure let me take this guy out and I start climbing. I guess the guy see's me climbing towards him and he heads towards me. He strats to set up for a head on but I make it difficult for him to do it cleanly and he breaks off and heads back up to alt. I go into chase mode. (I'm at 4000m he's at about 5000m with 120m seperating us).

I have two goals.
1. Keep this guy from taking down any more friendlies (Who were sucsessfully taking down with good BNZ tactics a lot of low flying TNB'in VVS pilots ) by chasing him away from the combat area
2. Kill his engine, kill the pilot send the bird down to the earth in pieces.

I followed him up to 9000-9500 meters. I'd get close from time to time and take some pot shots to get him evasive and bleed E but he did'nt fall for it. Matched his altitude but we had seperated to the point where he was able to turn around and go head on.

I got scored some hits on him but he got the shot that count. I had rode a parachute home from 9700meters up.

He dragged me up to his playing field.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 08:45 PM
Very nice thread indeed....shows what this forum is REALLKY all about..... one more thing I have found that lowering your prop pitch in a dive seems to increase your speed.. I knowe it seems like it should be the other way around but it isnt...

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 09:04 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- Very nice thread indeed....shows what this forum is
- REALLKY all about..... one more thing I have found
- that lowering your prop pitch in a dive seems to
- increase your speed.. I knowe it seems like it
- should be the other way around but it isnt...

No, you are correct.

The lower you get prop pitch, the more air the prop bites.
The more air the prop bites, the harder it is to turn.
In a dive, most of the 'loading' is taken from the engine, making it easier to turn the prop.. but this is not where the added speed comes from: the speed comes from the actual dive, while the prop is turned so that it causes LESS resistance to oncoming air. You aren't adding any more speed via the engine when in a dive, you are merely turning the prop so that it acts less like a brick wall and more like a feathered prop.

The opposite should be true when slowing down, but something is wrong with the math behind the model.



<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:24 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- WUAF_Mj_Hero
-
-
- You have 12 .50's on your Jug? I seem to have lost
- 4 of them../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
-
-
LoL, i was refering to the Hurrican /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:30 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- Very nice thread indeed....shows what this forum is
- REALLKY all about..... one more thing I have found
- that lowering your prop pitch in a dive seems to
- increase your speed.. I knowe it seems like it
- should be the other way around but it isnt...

I have heard, and questioned this very topic many times myself, but upon researching it, and eyeing my manifold pressure in a dive, when cutting prop pitch... i realised this, and had it reinforced by other squadmates who agreed:

The props in the P-47 are "constant-speed" props. Sure we all know this, but what does that mean? Well, upon adjusting prop pitch in a dive, ranging from 0 to 100 pitch, and gauging my speed and my manifold preassure: i found that neither of them change, regardless of pitch. There is however: one advantage to lowering pitch in a dive, that being that you are much harder to hear coming (although, if you dive fast like myself, they usually don't have time to react anyways). The downside is, when you lose the force of gravity toting you downwards, your props will no longer be able to compensate fully, and you will lose engine power, and speed. All in alll, i have found it most effective (especially for the zoom climb), to keep your pitch at 100% in a dive. Sure it causes more drag by the props, but it's ofset by the compensation of the engine.

Cutting pitch would be a good idea, however, if you were looking to conserve your fuel... though i doubt you'd be diving on targets if you were low on fuel.


In response to who comented on the P-47 pilot who dragged them up high, that's exactally the plan /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . The P-47's speed above 6k, and durability make it excellent at escaping, and dragging bandits.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:36 PM
I recently started flying the P-47 online for learning to fly it and handle it's weight. IMHO avoiding dogfights below 4500m in any case. The higher your altitude the better. I prefer 5500-6500m alt for patrolling. Carefull search for an enenmy and surprise him, don't follow your victim in case he tries to escape with a dive for lower alts.

If anyone at my Funeral has a long face, I'll never speak to him again.
Stan Laurel



EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:44 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- I've said many times that the D-27 did not seem to
- climb any better than the 10 or 22.



LOL HOW can anyone say anything else ! ! !

the performance is there for all to see ! !

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 02:01 AM
WUAF_Badsight wrote:
- BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
-- I've said many times that the D-27 did not seem to
-- climb any better than the 10 or 22.
-
-
-
- LOL HOW can anyone say anything else ! ! !
-
- the performance is there for all to see ! !

I don't know. Ask Koro.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 03:37 AM
It seems to me that Koro is under the impression that the D-27 is following the guidelines of the object viewer: in which case it would be better.

The point is: The razorbacks are simply better than the D-27 in every way except forward view... which is a moot point because of the added armor protection for the razorbacks.

If you fly a D-27 because you think it's better: you're wrong... i'm sry, but it's true.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 06:44 AM
After the release of patch 1.1b, my wing and I compared the D10 and D27 for climb and speed in level flight. These were not carefully controlled tests, but rather a quick assessment of relative performance. We found the D10 to be faster in completing a level 360 turn, but the D27 was definitely faster in the climb and in level flight (we only tested at 5000m).

Since then, of course, we've had two additional patches (1.1F and 1.1) in which case these observed advantages may no longer exist. Have to repeat our tests I suppose.

With the current patch, I agree the D10 seems to be the more agile of the two. I just prefer the visibililty afforded by the D27 when I am in acquisition mode with a 3000m+ altitude differential with propective targets. Also agree this advantage becomes moot once you've acquired and are lining up your guns on the target.

It's in that acquisition stage that the all-around better visibility of the bubble top provides a significant advantage for the BnZ IMHO.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 09:15 AM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
-
- I've said many times that the D-27 did not seem to
- climb any better than the 10 or 22. After doing so
- Korolov proceeded to let the insults fly. Now others
- come in and say the same thing. Interesting....

Um, DDT, I read that thread too. And my recollection of it is one that featured the typical DDT high pitched shrill whining followed by the typical "put up, or please shut up" reaction from others on the boards. Link the thread showing how harshly and unfairly you were treated if you like, but I think most would agree that it shows just about anything other than you politely making your points and then being jumped on by the Korolov insult machine.

Allow me to suggest that you write your own guide to flying the '47, or make constructive criticism of Korolovs own.

It's also worth mentioning that Korolov was referring to "zoom climb" rather than straight climb in 27 vs 22/10 comparisons too. Such a pain in the bottom to actually read what people write, isn't it?



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XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 09:54 AM
clint-ruin wrote:

- It's also worth mentioning that Korolov was
- referring to "zoom climb" rather than straight climb
- in 27 vs 22/10 comparisons too. Such a pain in the
- bottom to actually read what people write, isn't it?


It just so happens that i know exactally what he was talking about, and when i "amended" his suggestions with my own.. i took that into account. The fact is, the D-10 "zoom" climbs better than any other model, as it lacks the wing pylons, and has.. oh wait, THE EXACT SAME ENGINE. To put it simply: the D-10 is better.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 11:45 PM
KIMURA wrote:
- I recently started flying the P-47 online for
- learning to fly it and handle it's weight. IMHO
- avoiding dogfights below 4500m in any case. The
- higher your altitude the better. I prefer 5500-6500m
- alt for patrolling. Carefull search for an enenmy
- and surprise him, don't follow your victim in case
- he tries to escape with a dive for lower alts.

Well, I'd say that "don't dive for lower alts [than 4500m to pursue your victim]" and "avoid dogfights below 4500m" is untrue. If I understand you correctly, you suggest to conduct hit and run attacks only, but nothing else? Well, what's a dogfight in the first place? Of course, you should never work in the horizontal with the Jug at all, except if it would hand you a sure kill in the next second. But I don't think you meant this, because it's obvious. But in the vertical, you can work pretty good with the Jug, at all altitudes in fact. What you have to monitor instead is to engage only with an energy advantage. So, that means it can also be a co-alt engagement, or even inferior alt engagement, in case you are at very high speed. For example, I recently had an engagement with a Brewster. He actually jumped me with superior alt. I was at approx 3km. The thing I did was a zero G dive, which ended up almost vertical when I leveled out. The Brewster kept firing on me, but missed for the most, and the distance was increasing rapidly. Then, at some point, distance was approx 1+ km, I started a very very gentle zoom climb. The Brewster was not able to follow that, because at that time I had already established an energy advantage thanks to my superior top speed. When at 200 km/h, I leveled out and flew a chandelle, with the Brewster appearing in my 5, 4, 3 oc etc. low. I rolled over, and engaged. For the fact that he has just given up on his climb, he was low on E and a sitting duck. That screwed him on my gunpass.

This was a typical "rope a dope" maneuver, standard move for any B&Zer.

But I see what you mean when you say you want to stay at high alts. It's because you don't want to get jumped at lower alts, since when that happens, you might not have enough altitude to gain a speed advantage on your attacker, especially when he has a similar top speed to yours, other than a Brewster. Well, that's true, but then again, when sticking at those high alts, it's difficult to spot planes on the deck in the first place (especially over water with the proper paint scheme, or in adverse weather), and if you do, you have to count on your enemy being caught by surprise. As soon as he is aware of you, he will either break turn or dive. And of course, when the situation allows it at that point, I will not yet give up. Though, to minimize the risk ending up in a lonesome Jug at low altitudes with incoming high bandits, one of the most important factors to obey for the Jug pilot is to fly in an area where friendlies are with you. In the Jug, you don't really seek the lone bandit - cause you might surprise him, but maybe not. What you seek when you want to gain kills in the Jug, is actually the furball. You will "work" the furball from the vertical. There your chances to indeed "surprise" a bandit skyrocket! And your chances to disengage in case a high bandit comes in are higher as well, since you might be cleared by friendlies, or the bandit might be attracted more by easy targets in the furball than running after a Jug which rockets homewards.

Until now, it was basic 190 flying in fact. However, in the Jug there are some other very important things to obey. So here comes my personal guide to flying the Thunderbolt. If you don't obey it, well, you'll be back in La7s or whatever pretty soon http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif:

1. When diving on a target, watch your speed. The Jug will lose most of its control authority quite suddenly somewhere above 600 km/h. Especially on the elevator. Considering the furball situation, that makes it difficult to come up with deflection shots in time. So, what you have to do is:

2. Remember your prop pitch! If you do not plan to reach excessive speed in your dive, pitch back to 0. As soon as you start your zoom climb, do not forget to reset though.

3. Trim. If you do not have a trim wheel, I suggest to not trim the elevator at all. You will fly with the trim you get when you fire up the Jug. This is because a trim for level flight at cruising speed will hand you a big disadvantage on elevator authority when you dive for a maneuvering target and go for a tracking shot. It seems the standard trim you get is the best compromise between controllability and a still stable gunplatform. And don't worry about cruise flight - a nose up attitude had never hurt a Jug http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Even though you are NOT restricted to high alts, you can never have too much in a Jug. Of course you may trim for cruising, but don't forget to reset before entering combat.

4. As already said, seek the furball. As long as you work it with brain, keep your energy up under all circumstances, stay in the vertical for the most - you don't have to fear it. Instead it's the best place for the Jug to score. But don't forget, you will need a superb SA. Scans and quick scans even during gunpasses are mandatory, to see an incoming threat in time. (Actually, my furball talking goes hand in hand with those guys saying you need to fly the Jug in a Squad structure. The same idea is behind that, only that the latter would be even better of course.)

5. 50% fuel is more than enough, even on big maps like on the VirtualPilots1 server. On smaller maps, 25% will do, no doubt. Take extra ammo instead! You will need it. You can't track and maneuver with targets for too long, if you want to survive, so you have to take any opportunity you get for a shot. Even out at long range. I still have the standard 300m convergence set. I once tried a smaller one, even 150 - but when firing from short range on a target in a break turn, you would have to deflect a lot more than with the target further away. And your time window for the shot would also be extremely short. The gunsights in the D-10 and D-22 are also not very well suited for high angle off shots, you're facing a similar problem like the 190 driver. So don't be afraid to fire from further out than "point blank". With extra ammo, you have a truckload of bullets.

Regards
heartc



=38=OIAE

47|FC=-



Message Edited on 10/28/0310:51PM by Heart_C

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 12:43 AM
Heart_C wrote:


- Of course, you should
- never work in the horizontal with the Jug at all,
- except if it would hand you a sure kill in the next
- second. But I don't think you meant this, because
- it's obvious. But in the vertical, you can work
- pretty good with the Jug, at all altitudes in fact.

You seem to be confused, because it's exactally, and 100% the opposite: The jug can outclimb... nothing in verticle flight. However, it can outspeed most planes in a shallow climb of 320kmph IAS above 6km.

- What you have to monitor instead is to engage only
- with an energy advantage.

Yes, but the reason you stay high, is so that (since you lose between 1 and 2km on a dive) you don't get jumped on the zoom climb.

- 1. When diving on a target, watch your speed. The
- Jug will lose most of its control authority quite
- suddenly somewhere above 600 km/h. Especially on the
- elevator. Considering the furball situation, that
- makes it difficult to come up with deflection shots
- in time. So, what you have to do is:

That's not exactally true. Though you are correct about the jug's responsiveness at high speeds (as every plane, except the FW is like), i frequently dive on bandits with excess of 850kmph, and often land hits, and critical blows. It's more about knowing when to dive, what angles are acceptible, and when to abort your dive if the shot is spoiled.

- 2. Remember your prop pitch! If you do not plan to
- reach excessive speed in your dive, pitch back to 0.
- As soon as you start your zoom climb, do not forget
- to reset though.

Not to be entirely blatant... but you're wrong on this one entirely. The props on the P-47 are "constant speed" props, thus taking pitch (not actually pitch, as mentioned in GR142-Pipper's post) to 0% will in effect, do nothing. Don't believe me? Look at your manifold preassure in a dive, when you pull back the pitch, keep watching. It won't change... and thus, you aren't changing your acceleration.


- 3. Trim. If you do not have a trim wheel, I suggest
- to not trim the elevator at all. You will fly with
- the trim you get when you fire up the Jug. This is
- because a trim for level flight at cruising speed
- will hand you a big disadvantage on elevator
- authority when you dive for a maneuvering target and
- go for a tracking shot. It seems the standard trim
- you get is the best compromise between
- controllability and a still stable gunplatform. And
- don't worry about cruise flight - a nose up attitude
- had never hurt a Jug /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Even though you are NOT
- restricted to high alts, you can never have too much
- in a Jug. Of course you may trim for cruising, but
- don't forget to reset before entering combat.

This is mostly true, though i trim 1 click elevator down, for it seems to be the best median for flight, and eliminates the "Elevator Flutter" when the plane is flying itself (no pitch input).

- 4. As already said, seek the furball. As long as you
- work it with brain, keep your energy up under all
- circumstances, stay in the vertical for the most -
- you don't have to fear it. Instead it's the best
- place for the Jug to score. But don't forget, you
- will need a superb SA. Scans and quick scans even
- during gunpasses are mandatory, to see an incoming
- threat in time. (Actually, my furball talking goes
- hand in hand with those guys saying you need to fly
- the Jug in a Squad structure. The same idea is
- behind that, only that the latter would be even
- better of course.)

Do what you want, but "Seeking" the furball, is a 1 way trip to disaster. First: it's always you FIRST priority, to attack the most dangerous enemy (most often the highest, but sometimes not: ie. the FW190 A-9.)


- 5. 50% fuel is more than enough, even on big maps
- like on the VirtualPilots1 server. On smaller maps,
- 25% will do, no doubt. Take extra ammo instead! You
- will need it. You can't track and maneuver with
- targets for too long, if you want to survive, so you
- have to take any opportunity you get for a shot.
- Even out at long range. I still have the standard
- 300m convergence set. I once tried a smaller one,
- even 150 - but when firing from short range on a
- target in a break turn, you would have to deflect a
- lot more than with the target further away. And your
- time window for the shot would also be extremely
- short. The gunsights in the D-10 and D-22 are also
- not very well suited for high angle off shots,
- you're facing a similar problem like the 190 driver.
- So don't be afraid to fire from further out than
- "point blank". With extra ammo, you have a truckload
- of bullets.


Taking 50% fuel or more is always recommended, as far as i'm concearned. Regardless of the map size or sortie length, 50% lets you know that even if you get a fuel leak (which doesn't auto-seal.. naturally), you can still make it home with petrol to spare. Also, 50% fuel gives you better dive rates, and makes your bird heavier, thus have more momentum, and a better gunnery platform. C'mon people, elementary physics here.



If it seems like i'm picking your message apart to be mean or critical, i'm not. I'm telling you what i know, and have experienced, and have witnessed first hand from some of the best P-47 pilots out there.

Cherio, and Pip Pip! (Don't ask)

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:07 AM
Good points by all, plenty of advice for new Jug jocks. Get enough of them and the huns won't know what hit them!

WUAF_Badsight wrote:
-
- LOL HOW can anyone say anything else ! ! !
-
- the performance is there for all to see ! !
- BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
-
- I don't know. Ask Koro.

Because from my experiences, keep in mind *my*, the D-27 has outperformed the razorbacks in diving, climbing and speed. Most of all, it isn't as hard to get deflection shots, which is a big must (and you obviously know this DDT, after all you are so "successful" in the Jug).

Make no mistake, the D-27 is not half as easy to fly as the razorbacks, but the P-47 never was a easy plane to master. Thing is, I've seen just two P-47s (and I should note the D-27 variation) wipe the floor with the krauts almost single handedly, simply by working as a team and picking their fights. Heck, they got into TnB furballs with the damn things! If they couldn't turn, one of 'em would just zoom out and the other one would bag the offender. Just like JV44Rall says, "One jug is a opportunity, two jugs is suicide."

Imagine then, what a whole flight of jugs would be like. But you'd need a lot of dedicated pilots just to get a flight together like that.

Good points by Heart_C, some great advice there! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Regarding the reason why I like the D-27 so much, aside from the diving and zooming, is I'm partial to it. I like its lines better than the razorbacks. Whether or not you like it is up to you, but from my experience, if anyone asks me which jug is the best, I'm gonna tell them the D-27.


http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:30 AM
I'll accept that Koro, but i must insist that the sights in the razorbacks don't make that big on an impact. Me and my wingman rarely get shot down when flying the D-10 in coordination. And by rarely, i mean i don't recall either of us getting shot down in the past few weeks doing so.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 07:55 AM
WUAF_Mj_Hero wrote:
- If it seems like i'm picking your message apart to
- be mean or critical, i'm not. I'm telling you what i
- know, and have experienced, and have witnessed first
- hand from some of the best P-47 pilots out there.
-

Well, then you didn't see me yet it seems. Mind you: I guess you misunderstood me here a little bit. I did not say get into the furball and mix it up. I said B&Z the furball, for there are the highest chances to surprise a bandit which is either a) target fixated or b) bzy with the guy hanging on his six in close proximity. You have to see the furball as the object which is to be attacked, only that your chances to score increase. So, you will stick to basic B&Zing (this includes attacking the highest bandit if possible - in the furball situation this can also mean attack exactly THOSE bandits who try and B&Z the furball theirselves, for they are the highest possible threat to you), and about getting jumped - well, the point is, you need good SA. Even if you attack the highest bandit, in a furball or not, there might another one reaching visual range the next second which is even higher. If you want to restrict yourself to fight at 5+ km, and set a hard deck at 3km or whatever - have fun waiting for someone to show up. (However, note that I fly on FR servers only, mainly Virtualpilots1, where when there are furballs, even those are at around 3+km mostly).
When you say you would conduct gunpasses at well above 600km/h - that's fine, but it goes hand in hand with how you would fly - as you say, avoid furballs. This means you favor targets flying mostly straigh and level and hope they will not see you? In that case, it's not all that difficult to engage with 700+km/h of course. But if you want to be agile for the shot, and on a maneuvering target you have to, and you fly with cockpit on which makes high deflection shots difficult, at least in the early Jugs, (especially when the bandit doesn't just fly a "simple" break turn), then this speed is excessive. "Never let your energy advantage work against you." That's an old saying.

Regards
heartc



=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 07:57 AM
About the prop pitch btw: There sure is a difference - in the initial phase of your dive, given it is more shallow than steep. The first is to be favored if the situation allows (for example, on a target fixated bandit), for an easier shot.

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 10:08 AM
Heart_C wrote:
- About the prop pitch btw: There sure is a difference
- - in the initial phase of your dive, given it is
- more shallow than steep. The first is to be favored
- if the situation allows (for example, on a target
- fixated bandit), for an easier shot.


I'd like to agree with you, but it's simply not true: changing your "pitch" on a P-47 won't change your pitch. In a dive, since G (gravity) is doing all the acceleration, between 0 and 100 pitch: no difference whatsoever.


And btw: as far as BnZ goes.. i have no hard deck, i will dive from 3k to the deck to attack, if there are no high alt threats around. And: i do look for furballs, but mainly to find the people being dragged away, or trying to run. Think what you will, but if there is no high alt. threat, getting someone who's not aware of you, and flying level to the fight... is your best bet. There's no reason you should dive down at 600, burn some E manuvering for a shot on a guy turning, then climb back up w/ Sub-Par E, and be caught by someone you didn't see who dove down.

The point is. If there is no high threat: take the target you think you can get in 1 pass.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 11:36 AM
WUAF_Mj_Hero wrote:
-
-
- The point is. If there is no high threat: take the
- target you think you can get in 1 pass.
-
-


Hell, sure! I agree with you here. But don't you think there are exactly those targets within a furball as well? Furball doesn't mean they all have to draw lufberry circles non-stop. Of course, when I see someone trying to disengage from a furball, or if he is friendly and has a bandit on his tail, I would go for that target if the situation allows. As I said, I don't say mix it up in a furball. What I said is the furball is a good opportunity to look for targets, since those guys are all bzy, either target fixated or threatened from close threats, that they pay little attention to what they do not see at once. At least they have an increased SA workload, and even if they see you comming, they still have to take care of the other threats.

Regards
heartc

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 11:47 AM
Heart_C wrote:

- I said, I don't say mix it up in a furball. What I
- said is the furball is a good opportunity to look
- for targets, since those guys are all bzy, either
- target fixated or threatened from close threats,
- that they pay little attention to what they do not
- see at once. At least they have an increased SA
- workload, and even if they see you comming, they
- still have to take care of the other threats.

I don't think so. In a furball a new apporching P-47 has the same "chance" to get into the crosshair of another guys who is already in the furball. Furballs are just a Q. of luck or not. You are busy as the others are too. The Jug ist just a big target in a furball nothing more. It neither can outrun nor outturn it's opponnents, especially @ low or medium alts - so it's a Q. of time you're MIA.

If anyone at my Funeral has a long face, I'll never speak to him again.
Stan Laurel



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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 11:47 AM
Understandible, and i don't think that this is a bad course of action. I myself often hover above combat areas, and wait for someone to do the same. However, i strongly suggest against the 600kmph or less dives, because if you do this, you are very likely to get caught on the zoom climb. It's just a really big risk, as anyone with E will be able to catch you trying to climb away. The fun thing, is with 800kmph +, your enemy hears you, sees you, then thinks "to hell with it" and keeps going. When you go down at 600... you are going to attract lots of attention... the kind that you only want when you have say... 800kmph+ to get you back up.

Anyways, that's just the way I and my wingmen do things...

Hawgdog
10-30-2003, 06:35 AM
Korolov wrote:
- a whole bunch of P-47 stuff



Righto, flown with and against you. I almost want to try and learn that dam thing...but, I like not getting pounded.
Its like the IL2 in the original IL2, someone spots one of those and everyone drops what they are doing to go shoot at it LOL
Good tips..who knows, it would work in those servers with enough space to get up to alt. Problem is at that height, for me, its hard to spot a target, and with no icons at that height, you wind up wasting a lot of time booming and zooming friendlys
what say you about that?
thanks-

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XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 06:53 AM
Hawgdog wrote:
- Righto, flown with and against you. I almost want to
- try and learn that dam thing...but, I like not
- getting pounded.
- Its like the IL2 in the original IL2, someone spots
- one of those and everyone drops what they are doing
- to go shoot at it LOL
- Good tips..who knows, it would work in those servers
- with enough space to get up to alt. Problem is at
- that height, for me, its hard to spot a target, and
- with no icons at that height, you wind up wasting a
- lot of time booming and zooming friendlys
- what say you about that?
- thanks-

Telling friend from foe was never really all that hard for me. Once you get close enough, you can see the shape of a target and at that point you can tell who it is.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Hawgdog
10-30-2003, 10:07 PM
Korolov wrote:
-- Telling friend from foe was never really all that
- hard for me. Once you get close enough,

Thats the part I was refering to- close enough. within .5ish I can tell one plane more or less from another, especially if its a greatergreen type server, or Ivans for that matter /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Its humping along at 4K to dive and realize its a friendly is what gets me. If you can spot a target at that alt,(all I see are light specs) I need a new monitor...which isn't a bad idea anyhow!
Looking forward to flying tonight to see if those tips can work for me


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XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 02:32 AM
WUAF_Mj_Hero wrote:
- I'll accept that Koro, but i must insist that the
- sights in the razorbacks don't make that big on an
- impact. Me and my wingman rarely get shot down when
- flying the D-10 in coordination. And by rarely, i
- mean i don't recall either of us getting shot down
- in the past few weeks doing so.
-
-

Hmm, must not be counting my kill on Genswat last week. http://forums.ubi.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



The reason you don't get shot down is that you never mix it up with anybody, ever. Hovering at 6k and swooping down to backdoor people takes no skill, just patience and a ton of time to waste.


http://forums.ubi.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Your choice, but don't gloat about it.



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."