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Acersales
02-19-2007, 08:27 AM
Hello http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sorry for being boring, but i want to excel on a plane, and first i have to choose my favorite one.

I would like to know which of this planes is better not for a noob, but for a pro. I just want to become a good fighter. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I have tried setting the AI 4 x spits vs 4 x mustangs at ace difficulty, and spits always always win!!

So here is the conclusion...

which one to choose for becoming an expert on it??

Spitfire (best version) vs. Mustang (best version)


Thanks wonderful community http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

ytareh
02-19-2007, 08:37 AM
Ive been playing this game/'sim' for years (3 or 4),spent thousands on pc hardware etc and like to spend every spare hour at it.(Not easy with new baby...)Ive only really got serious online to the point that I rarely fly offline in the last month .Last night in a 1Vs1 dogfight server a guy ('EAF Tony R'...Hi!) kicked my butt beating me for 6-8 times straight.He confirmed what I already knew that Im still really a noob at this barely getting used to full real settings.
To really call yourself an 'expert' at this sim would require an equivalent time commitment to reaching the top 5% in any sport or pastime .This sim is such a time consumer and thats not even considering what happens when the hardware goes wrong!!!
Im assuming that youre fairly new to all this and would say try lots of planes before specialising (if ever-lots /most of the best guys dont fly just one plane).

Acersales
02-19-2007, 08:45 AM
thanks for your answer

Well, ive been 2,5 years playing this game, but still havent even started any campaing!! yeah, it sounds not true, but i swear it is real as life. Ive been playing through thousands of planes, but still no one has convinced me enough. I havent really used spits or p51 ever cos people said those where noob planes, but i think that those are really fitted for me.

So, if you had to choose one, only one one one one one... which one would you choose?? ive always loved p51 (since i was 16 or so) but seems too fragile. Furthermore, spits are so beautiful and good performers, that ive no idea which one to choose.... SO PLEASE HELP ME!!

Please help me choose ONe of those http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
02-19-2007, 09:19 AM
I would suggest not choosing 1 aircraft at all.

If you're new and really want to improve, you can go 1 of 2 routes, and it depends on how much tolerance you have, and what kind of commitement you have.

People naturally want to turn. If you want success right away, go for turn fighters. They are are *largely* the same in this series (differences in just how well they turn, climb rate, acceleration, max speed, etc). If you fly those (Spitfire is one, as are the Yaks, La7s, Zeros, etc), all you need to do is slam the throttle forward and hold the stick back and time your trigger pulls.

Ok, that's an oversimplification and somewhat sarcastic, but overall, it's not too far off. You will find some success early and can actually become quite good/deadly with such planes.

However....

Most people who go that route learn bad habits that hamper them in the long term and prevent them from really being "good". They become limited in the types of aircraft they can use, and the settings under which they can use them.

I would recommend the hard road. Fly energy fighters exclusively until you get the hang of them. P-51, P-47, FW-190, etc. They can be very difficult to get kills with, and can lead to you getting shot down almost constantly in the beginning. But if you slog it out and become a good energy fighter, then you can fly anything (as angles fighting comes so much more easily and naturally).

Overall though, it does seem like an odd question. When ya get right down to it, go with the aircraft you like that also fits your flying style.

Acersales
02-19-2007, 09:36 AM
thanks for your answers!

ill go for the mustang!!

which model to choose? is the p51 d20 the best?? it has the gunsight, and quite more guns than the mustang mk.III, however it is slower. Which one do u prefer?

BlitzPig_DDT
02-19-2007, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Acersales:
thanks for your answers!

ill go for the mustang!!

which model to choose? is the p51 d20 the best?? it has the gunsight, and quite more guns than the mustang mk.III, however it is slower. Which one do u prefer?

P-47. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Or FW-190. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You have to go with whatever is on the server. Again, don't limit yourself. There are quirks and nuances, but on the whole, the P-51 series is much the same.

I wouldn't worry about the K-14 gunsight. Again, if you get used to using it, you'll limit yourself.

Do you prefer early/mid war or late war? Are you a good shot?

Having more firepower is good, but more performance is generally better. Given the choice, I would take the Mk III. It's sure to outrun almost anything, so with some situaional awareness, you can stay out of trouble.

But.... here's the thing. Some people will tell you that a certain plane sucks, while others will say it rocks. Sometimes you just have an understanding with an aircraft. It's that way for me with the 190s, and to a lesser extent the Jug. And people generally would prefer I stay out of the 229 as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

But I know people who just can't get along with any of those planes.

The only thing you can do is try it for yourself and see what you like. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything.

We have a HUGE number of flyable aircraft in this sim. Don't worry about being a virtual ace. Be a plane ***** and enjoy them all.

gdfo
02-19-2007, 11:01 AM
Yes, do not limit yourself to one plane or side.

Pick 2 and play them opposite offline. Online is going to be different. Take the plane that you are most comfortable with.

Philipscdrw
02-19-2007, 11:38 AM
I spent hours with the Il-2 and LaGG-3 in the early days (planesets were smaller then), shooting trucks, tanks, and He111s. Learning how to hit the target is the main thing to learn - once you can do that you will find it easy to learn particular quirks about flying any particular aircraft.

Hoatee
02-19-2007, 01:17 PM
AHistoric thread.

Acersales
02-19-2007, 01:57 PM
im really thankful for all this answers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

thanks, now, i will love this game even more.

WANNA MARRY YOU http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

i will try to get good in the planes in the following order

1.- P-51 D20
2.- Spitfire
3.- Fw 190 (Im pretty good though... i usually manage to kill 4 spitfires at ace difficulty at 5000m... is that good?)

VW-IceFire
02-19-2007, 03:35 PM
I'm going to have to echo some of the other people here. Go for several planes and don't limit yourself. You'll have more fun online in a server that has new scenarios all the time (like the UK-Dedicated servers) if you learn to fly just about anything. But work it up slowly and feel free to specialize a little.

I'd say learn the P-51...it will teach you good habits that you can use on other planes. The Spitfire is great for a new pilot but it can teach a certain degree of laziness or bad habits that will bite you later. Fly the Spitfire after the Mustang and you'll probably avoid some of the bad habits.

Go for all of the Mustang versions at the same time. They all fly pretty much the same way but get used to the nuances. After flying them for a while you'll notice the slight differences between the P-51B/C and Mustang III in power and the P-51D's flying style as well.

Variety makes you a better pilot I think.

BlitzPig_DDT
02-19-2007, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I'm going to have to echo some of the other people here. Go for several planes and don't limit yourself. You'll have more fun online in a server that has new scenarios all the time (like the UK-Dedicated servers) if you learn to fly just about anything. But work it up slowly and feel free to specialize a little.

I'd say learn the P-51...it will teach you good habits that you can use on other planes. The Spitfire is great for a new pilot but it can teach a certain degree of laziness or bad habits that will bite you later. Fly the Spitfire after the Mustang and you'll probably avoid some of the bad habits.

Go for all of the Mustang versions at the same time. They all fly pretty much the same way but get used to the nuances. After flying them for a while you'll notice the slight differences between the P-51B/C and Mustang III in power and the P-51D's flying style as well.

Variety makes you a better pilot I think.

Yep. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Pretty much what I was saying except, if he's really concerned about skill more than plane type (which I get the impression he is), I would recommend staying out of the Spitfire, or any other turn fighter (anything Japanese, anything VVS, etc) until he feels like an old hand at flying E-fighters.

If he wants to start with the Mustang, great, but like you said, play with all the versions. Then branch out into others like it - P-47, 190, P-40 (in it's proper context), etc.

Making the jump to angles too soon would still allow the bad habits and end up quickly "converting" a pilot, and cementing those bad habits in place.

And the first non-high speed fighter he should move to, after all the other E-fighters, is the 109. That's a whole different experience. Probably the most singular and unique of them all.

VW-IceFire
02-19-2007, 10:04 PM
Indeed the 109 was one of my first types and its a really bizarre combination of styles that you at first are beaten over the head with and then slowly come to grips with it. Then you love the thing because its fantastic at what it does and it fits into its own niche not inhabited by most other types.

This can be good and bad and can really whack someone not experienced in it.

You could do what I did...go from turn fighter basics straight to the P-47. That will quickly un learn bad habits http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Acersales
02-20-2007, 07:48 AM
thanks again for your replys. Please keep writing! im printing all this and putting it like a poster in my room http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

now im depressed. I have been flying the Mustang (P51 D20) for 3,5 hours, but the problem is that, flying against 2 spitfires IXc AT ACE DIFFICULTY, they keep getting to me!!! i mean, i just run away and, at the beginning, win distance, but little by little, they keep getting closer.

I have learned by heart all the graphics at IL2 COMPARE, and everything round there. Even at 7500m, the spits seem to get close to me!!!!

WTF is happening? is this a mixture problem or supercharger??? please help a new to the mustang. (but ace in dora http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

BlitzPig_DDT
02-20-2007, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Indeed the 109 was one of my first types and its a really bizarre combination of styles that you at first are beaten over the head with and then slowly come to grips with it. Then you love the thing because its fantastic at what it does and it fits into its own niche not inhabited by most other types.

This can be good and bad and can really whack someone not experienced in it.

You could do what I did...go from turn fighter basics straight to the P-47. That will quickly un learn bad habits http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I started out in the 109 in IL2. IO think when I got the game the very first patch ever had just been released.

Toward the end of what ended up being the original's run (ending with FB's release), I had made the switch over to the 190 and stuck with that all the way until FB came out, then went back to the 109 for a bit before branching out.

Acersales
02-20-2007, 08:18 AM
Bf are great too, but i think that they are really the opposite to my style. Seem to weird or... i dunno. Hate the view from the cockpit, and that is vital for me



Originally posted by Acersales:
thanks again for your replys. Please keep writing! im printing all this and putting it like a poster in my room http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

now im depressed. I have been flying the Mustang (P51 D20) for 3,5 hours, but the problem is that, flying against 2 spitfires IXc AT ACE DIFFICULTY, they keep getting to me!!! i mean, i just run away and, at the beginning, win distance, but little by little, they keep getting closer.

I have learned by heart all the graphics at IL2 COMPARE, and everything round there. Even at 7500m, the spits seem to get close to me!!!!

WTF is happening? is this a mixture problem or supercharger??? please help a new to the mustang. (but ace in dora http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

BlitzPig_DDT
02-20-2007, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Acersales:
thanks again for your replys. Please keep writing! im printing all this and putting it like a poster in my room http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

now im depressed. I have been flying the Mustang (P51 D20) for 3,5 hours, but the problem is that, flying against 2 spitfires IXc AT ACE DIFFICULTY, they keep getting to me!!! i mean, i just run away and, at the beginning, win distance, but little by little, they keep getting closer.

I have learned by heart all the graphics at IL2 COMPARE, and everything round there. Even at 7500m, the spits seem to get close to me!!!!

WTF is happening? is this a mixture problem or supercharger??? please help a new to the mustang. (but ace in dora http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

Don't take this the wrong way, but you don't sound like an "ace" in any aircraft.

Stop worrying about terms like "ace" or arbitrary feats of skill. You are where you are, and that's all there is to it. Only time will change that, it's not going to happen overnight.

As for your matchup, why not fly against 16 enemies on max skill setting? <- that was sarcasm. Start small. 1v1, or 2v2. If 2v2, set your wingman to max skill and the enemy to average. Do that over different maps, at different starting alts, with different starting situations (the none/advantage/disadvantage thing. Means equal alt, you above (advantage) or you below (disadvantage)). Do this until you become bored with it because it's no longer a challenge and you can beat it every time.

Then bump the enemy skill level up 1, or keep it where it is, but add 1 more enemy to the flights so you are slightly outnumbered.

AI do not overheat. They do not black out. They do not suffer from maximum speeds or control stiffness. They can see through clouds and mountains and even their own plane (they can see you when you are at their 6 low where no human could see you).

In short, the AI cheat.

And they use a different flightmodel to achieve most of that, so that means that you can safely ignore pretty much all data that would involve a plane matchup.

The only "good" thing is that they don't fly the aircraft to 10/10ths. They are a bit more "realistic" than human oppoents in that regard, because the human probably knows the plane better than any pilot ever did because he can go over the edge and just hit re-fly, and will fly it harder because he has no fear of death (due to the above).

IL2 Compare is not an accurate tool. It's a rough guide only, and it's only updated to 4.07. Things have changed since then.

The P-51 has automatic mixture and supercharger (and radiator) control.


Don't start out so high. Fly your QMB matchups at 1000m for now. Learn to use your speed, not your climb or turn. The Spitfire will outclimb you and outturn you quite readily.

Energy fighting is not all "boom and zoom", that is merely the most basic and recognizable aspect of it, but it's also the best place to start, and by itself, not intuitive or easy compared to angles fighting. It's gonna take time. Lots of it. A year or several, depending on how much you 'fly' and how quickly you pick things up.

Acersales
02-20-2007, 08:47 AM
thank you.

Sorry for sounding stupid with the ace comment... you know im rubbish. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i have always won with the dora against 2 - 3 aces (AI), but i dont know why know it is impossible with the mustang. With the dora, I always managed to flee away, whereas with the mustang seems impossible. Anyway, im not trying to ever win, but isnt the speed the most different factor between spits and mustangs? why can spits overrun me (mustang)? doesnt seem natural at all.

BlitzPig_DDT
02-20-2007, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Acersales:
thank you.

Sorry for sounding stupid with the ace comment... you know im rubbish. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i have always won with the dora against 2 - 3 aces (AI), but i dont know why know it is impossible with the mustang. With the dora, I always managed to flee away, whereas with the mustang seems impossible. Anyway, im not trying to ever win, but isnt the speed the most different factor between spits and mustangs? why can spits overrun me (mustang)? doesnt seem natural at all.

Post the track.

Without seeing it, it's not possible to say. But from the sound of it, I'd wager it has to do with were you started out (spawn alt), what you did right after that, the fact that they don't overheat and you do, and being outnumbered.

Acersales
02-20-2007, 09:48 AM
i am not at the gaming pc right now

Im supposed to be working http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif, but since no new customers, no working. (hope the boss doesnt see this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif... imagine he plays PF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif)

Well, here is the what happens:

1.- start mission with... 2x ace spitfires IXc, versus me, 1x P51 D20.

2.- keep straight, ready trims and guns, when enemy close, since im sure i would loose, start shooting around so that the spifires tries to evade the fire, and doesnt shoot.

3.- keep straight with BOOST (done this at 3500m and 7500m, where mustangs are supposed to "rule")

4.- i keep gaining advantage (from 0.5 to 1.90 or so in 3 minutes...)

5.- engine still not overheated, and plane going straight with triming, no flaps, no radiator open...

6.- suddenly, start loosing distance, and get from 1.9 to 0.5

7.- loose mission.

THE END

in point nº6, ive tried going up, but decreased distance faster, and going down, but got to nº4, to get finally at 7.

tigertalon
02-20-2007, 05:33 PM
Mustang without a shadow of a doubt.

Still, she takes a steel nerves to walk the learning curve.

BlitzPig_DDT
02-20-2007, 06:22 PM
The description just isn't enough. You'll have to post the track.

Bull_dog_
02-20-2007, 08:52 PM
I'm sure some luftwaffe fan will come running to insure the Mustang's good name is trashed, but I'll tell you what I discovered about the Mustang...at least prior to 4.06...haven't tested 4.08 and I doubt I will at this stage of the game.

AI was really badly porked...It doesn't seem so bad with 4.08 but I haven't played offline alot so I can't say that it is better or worse in terms of speed, climb and energy retention. The best way to understand the strengths and weaknesses of an aircraft is online.

The Mustang is pretty badly modelled in many ways...or was anyways. First thing is that the ingame Mustang recieves a 30km/hr hit on airspeed with its radiator open and/or in auto with hot engine and most other aircraft I've tested get a 20km/hr hit. I doubt the AI get any hit.

The real Mustang hit its rate of climb and speed numbers in "combat configuration" and that is with pylons, full ammo, full fuel and radiator in automatic.

If you test the current Mustang in that configuration you'll be really, really disappointed. I'm travelling so I don't have access to my records I kept but it is bad enought to be the "worst modelled" in my book...even worse than the Hurricane II and FM-2. Now the configuration that the Mustang is in currently (clean) should give an 8-11 mph boost in top speed depending on altitude...that was a calculated number because I've never seen a test with it. Much of this information is available on Spit performance website and if you google the Merideth effect and research you will find clues as well.

I suspect you are seeing an AI effect...and in this game, when I fly offline, I often turn overheat off to balance the AI effect....try your mission with radiators closed and lower in altitude. I found the AI issues were amplified at high altitudes and some aircraft (109 in particular) seemed worse with AI...I speculate that is because the AI can run the plane at 100% pitch indefinitely without engine failure and overheat...of course, keep in mind, I'm talking pre 4.071; this may not be the case anymore.

If you can find a server that offers Bf109G6 and Fw 190A5-A8 you can have great success with the Mustang if you are patient. Unfortunately, it is no match for the G10, K and Dora in most circumstances...and the Ki-84 as well.

BlitzPig_DDT
02-20-2007, 10:11 PM
The P-51 was the glory hound on cleanup detail. It got it's rep because it could do what it could do longer. That's it. Nothing more.

It was the Thunderbolts scrawny little sister who was more popular just because she'd go further.

The Jug was faster at altitude. Had more firepower. Was tougher. Could carry far more ordnance. Was a phenomenal mud mover, and a great fighter. It broke the backs of the LuftWaffe in the air and the Wehrmacht on the ground.

But the last one in, and the one sold more often to civilians and the one logistics (not proper resource utilization (ie, the best tool for the job)) essentially required be used in Korea - was the P-51.

It's overpopularity has it mythologized, and you totally demonstrated that right there.

BTW, as for the game, it's NEVER been poor or undermodeled. It was mythos and fanboi-ism that lead to that idea.

People kvetch most often about it's turn rate, but in 4.04 (or somewhere around there), I was in a *slow speed*, take off flaps-using knife fight with a plane with *much* better wing loading, and I could not keep up with the P-51. He was not a better virtual pilot either, I know the guy. It's just that those "laminar flow wings", which IRL don't handle high angles of attack, OR provide very much lift (especially at low speeds), were doing a far better job than they should have been.

People also cry about it losing it's wings - the problem is too much elevator authority and too much lift from the wings leading to too much G-load. So once again, it was overmodeled. Pilots who fly it today will tell you it is a real 2-hander. Very much different from what we have in the game.

And it IS even more improved in 4.08.

The bottom line is, anyone who blames THAT aircraft's performance for your defeat, is a VERY poor musician.


Oh and thanks for the thread derailment btw.

It was a very good performer, but it's not deserving of the amount of praise it gets (because NOTHING is worthy of that). And it's most assuredly not getting the shaft in this game.

BlitzPig_DDT
02-20-2007, 10:35 PM
Getting back on topic - I've clearly beein away from the 190 for far too long. It was almost embarassing. lol

Acersales - I don't know what to tell you, other than the P-51D-20NA IS most certainly faster than the Spitfire IXc (you didn't say which, so I assumed the '43 version).

The main weakness of the Spitfire in general is it's speed.

I tried out 1 ace enemy in that Spitfire, and me, first in a P-51D-20NA, then in a P-47D-27. I started both fights over Smolensk at a mere 1000m (virtually in the weeds, where neither is near it's full potential). They both seriously out-ran the Spitfire. And I was able to go from head to head, to firing position within seconds after the first merge. The first merge was the closest he ever got to getting his guns on me too (which he wasn't ever close enough to shoot).

This is why I'd have to see the track to really comment further for you.

GonFlying
02-21-2007, 03:19 AM
There's only one thing the Mustang could do better than the Spitfire - that was as a long range fighter.

Of course most Americans will opt for the P-51, I'd be amazed if they didn't, but I should imagine that's more to do with national pride than hard facts?

The BIG problem here is that the very best Spit; Spitfire X1V is NOT included in the game. The Spitfire 1X - the latest model in the game, was operational in 1942!!! Where was the Mustang then?

The Spitfire X1V had a Griffon engine that outperformed the Merlin - nuff said.
Add to that increased speed, supreme manouvreability, no serious vices, heavier armament and better survivability.

Finally, where was the Mustang in 1939, or even 1942 over Malta? The Spitfire was the only WW11 fighter that was in at the very start and just got better.

America can't have been best at everything forever!!! Things were really differant 60 years ago. Britain made some great aircraft back then (many left out of this game), today it's differant of course, although the Euro fighter is looking pretty good.

Please don't try and rewrite history based purely on national pride.

Acersales
02-21-2007, 07:50 AM
Sorry BlitzPig_DDT for not posting the TRACK, i will try to put it as soon as possible. How can i post it? with rapidshare or something like that?

To the guy talking about national pride: im not american nor english but spanish. These people are not saying that the spit is worse, but that it has worse speed. THATS IT http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DaBestHawk_69th
02-21-2007, 10:38 AM
I always try to fly plane that are inferior to the best turn and burn or zoom and boom tactics.
I look at it as a challenge for me. Some servers, all you see is people flying LA7, Spit25 190D9. So trying to beat them is real fun. You might not get many kills but you have to use diffrent tactics to beat them.

Just a thought

DaBestHawk

BlitzPig_DDT
02-21-2007, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by GonFlying:
There's only one thing the Mustang could do better than the Spitfire - that was as a long range fighter.

Of course most Americans will opt for the P-51, I'd be amazed if they didn't, but I should imagine that's more to do with national pride than hard facts?

The BIG problem here is that the very best Spit; Spitfire X1V is NOT included in the game. The Spitfire 1X - the latest model in the game, was operational in 1942!!! Where was the Mustang then?

The Spitfire X1V had a Griffon engine that outperformed the Merlin - nuff said.
Add to that increased speed, supreme manouvreability, no serious vices, heavier armament and better survivability.

Finally, where was the Mustang in 1939, or even 1942 over Malta? The Spitfire was the only WW11 fighter that was in at the very start and just got better.

America can't have been best at everything forever!!! Things were really differant 60 years ago. Britain made some great aircraft back then (many left out of this game), today it's differant of course, although the Euro fighter is looking pretty good.

Please don't try and rewrite history based purely on national pride.

The hollywood expert strikes again!

"The Spitfire was the only WW11 fighter that was in at the very start and just got better."

The only huh? Guess the Werhmact steamrolled Europe with the help of people holding their arms out making propeller noises then. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


How effective would the bombing campaign have been if there were no escort fighters?

What's going 500+MPH in Reno today?


"National pride" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
02-21-2007, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Acersales:
Sorry BlitzPig_DDT for not posting the TRACK, i will try to put it as soon as possible. How can i post it? with rapidshare or something like that?

To the guy talking about national pride: im not american nor english but spanish. These people are not saying that the spit is worse, but that it has worse speed. THATS IT http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Don't mind him. He's watched too many movies.

As for the track, any web host that will allow you to post non-picture files will work. I know there are several. Try googling for file host or something like that.

hendrix1998
02-21-2007, 03:27 PM
on IL2 if it's avaible i will Chose the J8A (Gloster Gladator) Yes it's slow and outdated but it can out turn any fighter and it's fun online dog fighting in it against 3x 190 E/4s

Bull_dog_
02-21-2007, 09:58 PM
hmmm Spitfire vs. Mustang....'


Same engine, different weight...Spitfire= 410mph while Mustang=440mph (in combat configuration)...must be that national pride propelling the aircraft or maybe propaganda.

It took the Mustang what 1650hp to hit the 440mph barrier at what altitude? How many HP did it take the Spit, 109, Fw or any other aircraft to hit that mark???

That was what made the aircraft what it was and what it isn't in this sim.

VW-IceFire
02-21-2007, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by GonFlying:
There's only one thing the Mustang could do better than the Spitfire - that was as a long range fighter.

Of course most Americans will opt for the P-51, I'd be amazed if they didn't, but I should imagine that's more to do with national pride than hard facts?

The BIG problem here is that the very best Spit; Spitfire X1V is NOT included in the game. The Spitfire 1X - the latest model in the game, was operational in 1942!!! Where was the Mustang then?

The Spitfire X1V had a Griffon engine that outperformed the Merlin - nuff said.
Add to that increased speed, supreme manouvreability, no serious vices, heavier armament and better survivability.

Finally, where was the Mustang in 1939, or even 1942 over Malta? The Spitfire was the only WW11 fighter that was in at the very start and just got better.

America can't have been best at everything forever!!! Things were really differant 60 years ago. Britain made some great aircraft back then (many left out of this game), today it's differant of course, although the Euro fighter is looking pretty good.

Please don't try and rewrite history based purely on national pride.
Actually the Spitfire LF.IX that we have in game is more typical of a late 1943 or 1944 aircraft as most of the RAF squadrons in ADGB and those transfered to 2nd TAF during the build up to D-Day were still flying old Mark Vb and Vc's instead of the IX. The IX did arrive in 1942, but that was the F.IX with the Merlin 61/63 engines. So we more have the mid-war model and by June of 1944 the most important as far as the major action over the continent was concerned.

The P-51 was also around in 1940. The RAF requested that North American make license copy P-40s but they had a better design on the books and the RAF placed an order which got the whole thing started. Mustang Mark I's in RAF service equipped several front line squadrons including those involved in the fights over Dieppe in 1942. You could argue that said deployment freed the RAF to send Spitfires to Malta in the first place.

The Spitfire did have quite the evolution...from its early design in 1936 and the full deployment of 16 squadrons during the Battle of Britain to the countless numbers of squadrons during the rest of the war.

The Spitfire did indeed have a significant design that lasted the whole war...but most of the designs of the war came out of the same period. The FW190 and Bf109 were both late 1930's designs with similar evolutionary jumps. The Mustang was a late 1930s design...lack of interest and not having the proper engine kept it from really exploding onto the scene until much later.

I think those are very hard points to stand on.

If anything...its not the Spitfire. Its the Rolls Royce Merlin engine which was the most impressive thing about both planes (or anything fitted with it really). British aircraft design was incredible during this period but then so were the Germans and Americans and even the Japanese who surprised everyone. I know where your coming from here...I get a little sick of the 'Americans did everything best' too but thats mostly Hollywood or History channel history. Not always the best sources http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MrMojok
02-21-2007, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
It got it's rep because it could do what it could do longer. That's it. Nothing more.


Phrased that way, its range sounds so insignificant.

BlitzPig_DDT
02-22-2007, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
It got it's rep because it could do what it could do longer. That's it. Nothing more.


Phrased that way, its range sounds so insignificant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

....and?

Would you prefer this -
P-51 : The Thunderbolt's scrawny little sister who became more popular only because she'd go futher. ?

hendrix1998
02-22-2007, 12:26 PM
Just remeber the Mustang has an Type of Merlin engine inside it.

I would go for the Spit any day better armament 2x 20mms and 4x .303s or maybe the VB(2) 4x 20mms and 4x 303s

MrMojok
02-22-2007, 06:25 PM
Would you prefer the bombers spent a significant portion of their journey unescorted, because the older sister was too much of a fat drinker to follow them that far?

That's what I mean. The range isn't insignificant at all.

BlitzPig_DDT
02-22-2007, 08:10 PM
The bombers didn't have the effect you'd like to beleive. The Jug smashed the industry and Wehrmacht on the ground, AFTER softening the LuftWaffe in the air for the P-51s to follow.

We aren't talking about deeds anyway, we are talking about capability. The P-51 got it's rep ONLY because it could do what it could do (which was only just 'enough'), longer. That's it.

MrMojok
02-23-2007, 03:05 AM
The bombers didn't have the effect I'd like to believe? The Jug did it all, then.

This one is going in the archives.

B17, P51 not needed: P47 wins teh War.
--------------------------------------------

1)The Jug was fastest
2)Jug had more firepower
3)Was tougher
4)Could carry far more ordnance than P51
5)Jug did the dirty work on the ground while B17s bumbled around ineffectually for three years

Why stop there?

6)Jug first to break sound barrier
7)Jug ended U-boat threat vs. England
8)Didn't need to prove anything by escorting bombers unreasonable distances
9)Does not have a blinking 12:00 on its vcr

BlitzPig_DDT
02-23-2007, 07:43 AM
1 - 5 are about right actually. The bombing raids were not that accurate, despite what the history books (aka - propaganda after the fact), and hollywood, tell you.

If you really want to do high alt level bombing, we had the tool over in the PTO to do it, and no escort needed.

Nevermind the fact that even without escorts the Germans couldn't have stopped the bombing raids anyway. Simply no way to deal with that number of bombers, with that number of guns, effectively.

How do you think the soviets got to Berlin so fast anyway? It certainly wasn't from huge daylight bombing raids. I think the IL2 might have played a bit of a role in that. lol

I know it stings, what with you being a fanboi and all. Just remember, nobody is saying the P-51 was ****, just that it's rep is unwarranted and there were far better combat aircraft, that's all.

MrMojok
02-23-2007, 05:29 PM
As far as being a fanboy, my favorite plane in the game and in real life isn't an American one. I fly the Mustang and Jug a lot in the game, though.

But I have to say, this revelation you preach in here is one of the most astounding ones I've ever had the ummm... pleasure to have revealed to me.

Why, if the B17 raids were such a waste of time, didn't they just divert all resources to building an enormous, unstoppable Air Force of all P-47s?

BlitzPig_DDT
02-23-2007, 11:42 PM
Why, if the B-17 raids were so effective, did the soviets reach Berlin so quickly, and ahead of everyone else.

Why, if the P-51 isn't your all time favorite, are you here pushing this off topic thread diversion - just bored and like being in internet fights?

I honestly can not beleive you could ask the question with a straight face other than a poker one. The answers are too many and too obvious for this to be anything other than either a troll, or a blind hollywood fanboi-ism.

MrMojok
02-24-2007, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Why, if the B-17 raids were so effective, did the soviets reach Berlin so quickly, and ahead of everyone else.

Perhaps we failed to turn our high-altitude bombing focus and precision, against the right people in time.


Why, if the P-51 isn't your all time favorite, are you here pushing this off topic thread diversion - just bored and like being in internet fights?

I honestly can not beleive you could ask the question with a straight face other than a poker one. The answers are too many and too obvious for this to be anything other than either a troll, or a blind hollywood fanboi-ism.

If my last couple of posts were attempts to troll, what were your last posts?

Why accuse me of fanboism, but then in the same breath say the P-47 rendered Fortresses and Mustangs obsolete?

Perhaps we have the same aim.

Wtornado_439th
02-24-2007, 04:03 AM
If you master any P-51 and get 3 kills per
online Coop mission without stalling spinning out overbleed than you can fly anything.

The P-51 and the FW-190 Anton planes are a
handfull.

lowfighter
02-24-2007, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Acersales:

3.- keep straight with BOOST (done this at 3500m and 7500m, where mustangs are supposed to "rule")

4.- i keep gaining advantage (from 0.5 to 1.90 or so in 3 minutes...)

5.- engine still not overheated, and plane going straight with triming, no flaps, no radiator open...

6.- suddenly, start loosing distance, and get from 1.9 to 0.5

7.- loose mission.

THE END

in point nº6, ive tried going up, but decreased distance faster, and going down, but got to nº4, to get finally at 7.

Acersales, I'm not a good P51 player, but try lowering your fuel from 100% to 50% and see what happens, the P51 is pretty sluggish with 100% fuel.
Also I looked at the maximum speeds for the 2 aircraft and the difference is about 50 Km/h in favour of the P51. That's not so much of a difference taking into account that the AI's are perfectly trimmed in level flight, so they will accelerate faster than humans. If lowering the fuel doesn't help try a match against even lower performance AC then go up the ladder.

BlitzPig_DDT
02-24-2007, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
...(more typical trolling ****)...

Your aim is to troll and derail a topic. End of story.

UNLESS.... you're too dim to understand what's being talked about, and thus, are a pure fanboi. Which is it?

You started the derailment, and you continue it. It is therefore on YOU, not me. Sorry.

I'm tempted to correct you, but my tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt keeps telling me you KNOW this stuff, and you're just trolling, and perhaps a little bit upset that someone would say anything less than spectactular about your sig plane.

And again, none of this ****, that YOU started, and YOU insist on continuing, has anything at all to do with the thread. So why not take it to PM or just let it go?

I'd be REALLY surprised if you do.

BlitzPig_DDT
02-24-2007, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Wtornado_439th:
If you master any P-51 and get 3 kills per
online Coop mission without stalling spinning out overbleed than you can fly anything.

The P-51 and the FW-190 Anton planes are a
handfull.

Anton, yes. P-51... not so much. It's zoom is never-ending and it's dive, and even turn, are good enough to all add up to one hell of a performer.

Excepting gunnery accuracy, if you can succeed in the 190, you can do much better in the P-51 - in this game.

MrMojok
02-24-2007, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
And again, none of this ****, that YOU started, and YOU insist on continuing, has anything at all to do with the thread.

You are right. Apologies to the threadstarter.

HellToupee
02-24-2007, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
The bombers didn't have the effect you'd like to beleive. The Jug smashed the industry and Wehrmacht on the ground, AFTER softening the LuftWaffe in the air for the P-51s to follow.


sorry, but the jug couldnt even reach the industry targets, how could it smash it.

Its rep is deserved, jug may have done somethings better, hell xiv could probly fly rings around it but thats not what its rep was for. One could say the spit soften the lw for the jug :P