PDA

View Full Version : 20mm



XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 07:28 PM
why is german 20mm so inefective against VVS planes?
u can shoot yaks at close (30m) range half sec burst at em, with not much of an effect, no matter that enemy plane fills ur windscreen almost totally. and german 20mm cannon shell has way much more He content than Russian He rounds, and He content itself is far better than russian too. why are they still so ineffective??
is the damage only calculated by kinetic energy weapons have? or how? no chemical energy counted?
kinetic energy counting is bit buggy, because there is several spots on planes where u can shoot throught without damaging the plane, only making holes, nothing more.

but now in game, no matter where u hit enemy, it always seems to "suck" all the kinetic energy of the round. no matter if its only would in RL pierce lil hole in fuselage, without hitting anything critical.

and tell me now why nowadays almost every fighterplane has HE cannonrouds almost like what germans had back in WW2?? (thin shelled ones http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)
cos u gotta hit direct hit with cannon to make damage on enemy, there is no fuses like what AAA uses againstAC:s, timed fuses...

i think german weapond needs some upgrade on hitting power or VVS planes need some downgradin on DM. deltawood aint so special, cos it only has volyme twice the wood has , so its frigging heavy material.and that way, it makes planes bit more clumsy etc. now it looks like VVS planes has metal structure FM, not Deltawood, but still they have Deltawood DM offcourse. odd thing too, that Yak3 and other metal made VVS planes still takes more damage than 109. i find it bit "unfair" and it puts me thing a bit like bias or something.

PS. dunno where i put my tinfoil hat, but i sure need it soon when Masses of VVS fanboys takes me as their target http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

PPS. forget my pills and run out of beer..

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 07:28 PM
why is german 20mm so inefective against VVS planes?
u can shoot yaks at close (30m) range half sec burst at em, with not much of an effect, no matter that enemy plane fills ur windscreen almost totally. and german 20mm cannon shell has way much more He content than Russian He rounds, and He content itself is far better than russian too. why are they still so ineffective??
is the damage only calculated by kinetic energy weapons have? or how? no chemical energy counted?
kinetic energy counting is bit buggy, because there is several spots on planes where u can shoot throught without damaging the plane, only making holes, nothing more.

but now in game, no matter where u hit enemy, it always seems to "suck" all the kinetic energy of the round. no matter if its only would in RL pierce lil hole in fuselage, without hitting anything critical.

and tell me now why nowadays almost every fighterplane has HE cannonrouds almost like what germans had back in WW2?? (thin shelled ones http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)
cos u gotta hit direct hit with cannon to make damage on enemy, there is no fuses like what AAA uses againstAC:s, timed fuses...

i think german weapond needs some upgrade on hitting power or VVS planes need some downgradin on DM. deltawood aint so special, cos it only has volyme twice the wood has , so its frigging heavy material.and that way, it makes planes bit more clumsy etc. now it looks like VVS planes has metal structure FM, not Deltawood, but still they have Deltawood DM offcourse. odd thing too, that Yak3 and other metal made VVS planes still takes more damage than 109. i find it bit "unfair" and it puts me thing a bit like bias or something.

PS. dunno where i put my tinfoil hat, but i sure need it soon when Masses of VVS fanboys takes me as their target http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

PPS. forget my pills and run out of beer..

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 07:54 PM
Back to beta05, German 20mm guns were great in it! One pass, one kill /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 08:23 PM
ya they sux

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 11:11 PM
Lets see clint-ruin will be here shortly whith is track files to show that you are wrong.

But gotta agree if its german it doesnt have a chance at any uberness of any kind



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 11:26 PM
Howdy

I think it's more of DM's on certain planes.

The Lagg's seem far more durable than the LA's to
20mm. I guess the La5's should have the same DM from
the firewall back though.

The I-16's and 153's were pretty much impervious to 20mm
in 1.0. They blow up, and lose wings well.

The Yaks have always been tough to bring down.
Hopefully their DM will be corrected. Then again
it's just a guess that they were pretty fragile.

I guess if you put enough Dope on canvas eventually you'll
become superman.

S!
Weasel

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 05:46 AM
I fly the 190 almost exclusively and I find the 20mm cannons to be effective even when just using two 151's. And please people, stop saying the Yak is too tough, it is pretty fragile now IMHO (the DM was re-worked and fixed, check your readme file). Before the Yak had the most overmodelled DM easily, now it along with the Lavochkins have a great DM. The only broken DM's in the game are the Lagg and 190 which use a simplified model. The 109's control surfaces are a little too vulnerable as well and the P-47 sometimes explodes with one hit but these are isolated bugs not the DM as a whole.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

Message Edited on 09/30/0304:48AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 04:15 PM
Uh?? I love the 151/20mm in 1.11. No problem taking down VVS anymore.

"Ich bin ein W√ľrgerwhiner no longer"

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:40 AM
Howdy

>And please people, stop saying the Yak is too
- tough, it is pretty fragile now IMHO (the DM was
- re-worked and fixed, check your readme file). Before
- the Yak had the most overmodelled DM easily,

ohh if it is written it must be true....

My "research" tells me that the Yaks still are flying
tanks/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The DM's for them are vastly improved (PK and EK's happen
now), but major structural damage is few and far between.
There still is quite a bit of room for improvement....
I'd rate the 41's Lagg as easier to kill than an early war
Yak.
Wings come off of the Lagg far more readily than the Yak
after 20mm MGFF hits.

And yes the 190 could use quite a bit of DM tuning, along
with the P-39 and a host of others,,,TB3 not to be excluded.
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!
Weasel

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 08:44 AM
Weasel, we must be playing two different games then because I can destroy Yaks with ease. I am not trying to argue, its just my opinion. Oh well.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 03:56 PM
Kyryle, are u playing it in online or offline?

i really wonder those odd situations when i get really close to VVS plane, shoot it at 10-30m distance, long burst from nose to tail, and still it is able to fly.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 04:55 PM
because at this range the guns convergances are all screwed up, the 20mm shell should actually increase speed reaching its optimum at the convergance distance. therefore causing more damage.

try re-configuring your convergance, i find that at this close range the weapons are less effective than at say 300m, which is what i typically have mine set to.

http://www.il2skins.com/skins/screenshots/438.jpg



"You can teach monkeys to fly better than that! Spring chicken to S.h.y.t.e.h.a.w.k in 3 easy lessons"

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 05:06 PM
"the 20mm shell should actually increase speed reaching its optimum at the convergance distance. therefore causing more damage" eh??

so, 20mm cannon shell accelerates after it leaves cannon ballel?? is there rocket behind the round???

anyways, if its He round with delayed Fuse, the extra speed doesnt help at all, cos it explodes almost right after the hit. extra speed affects on AP rounds, increasing penetration. (douple the speed, quad the penetration, douple the mass, douple the penetration :P)

so, im using 100m-150m of convergence range, and over that range its quite stupid to shoot other fighter in dogfigt. if target flyes straight etc, then could use longer range to open fire.

but still, single LW 20mm round doesnt make ‚¬īmuch damage, as being full of H4A1, which is over 2 times as effective as TNT.

How much there is He in VVS side 20mm ammo, in grams?

Svak and other guns. i mean He rounds. (or HEI etc)

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 05:33 PM
Enofinu wrote:
- Kyryle, are u playing it in online or offline?
-
- i really wonder those odd situations when i get
- really close to VVS plane, shoot it at 10-30m
- distance, long burst from nose to tail, and still it
- is able to fly.
-

"nose to tail" I know what you mean

Someone knows where the La5 and the Yaks have their fuel tanks?

when shooting from short distance at La/Yak I often get the "pilot kill" message just the moment the tail of my target has come off.

The problem might be the "empty" (no critical parts) tail of this planes, it perfectly protects pilot and engine until it falls off. Damage to the fuselage shows also no effect in FB until it quits (as far as I know).

109 and 190 have fuel tanks modelled at their tails, one time I flew a 190A8 offline with hit arrows on, a 20mm hit my !!! elevator !!!, ONE shrappnel hit the tail behind the cockpit and the plane started burning



quiet_man

second foundation member of the EURO_Snoopy fan club!

I'm quiet_man, but if I post I post quiet much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 05:40 PM
quiet man, its because of VVS HEI ammo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:06 PM
Enofinu has a very good point last night i was playing online flying 190,s and 109's mostly against la7's in all their UFO glory, every time i got in a shot being on six or a leading shot with 20mm and 30mm against these planes all that would happen would be a visible indication of a hit then bits would fly off or maybe some smoke, this was happening alot which was fustrating to say the least.

On a few ocasions i was flying a g2 after gaining an advantage was hitting them 5 or 6 times with cannon and all they do is smoke then they hit u once or twice even with small cal and you are toast, i nearly threw my joystick across the room last night i just got so pi$$ed off was having a 1 on 1 in g2 against la7 i would score hits to little or no effect after much effort to keep an advantage then he would finish me with a small burst on 1 pass i was so pi$$ed off.

And another thing i am sick of getting an alt and speed advantage engaging la7's and then them clinging to ur but on the zoom back up with hardly any effort like they are magnetised to u or something hope all this gets sorted in next patch....

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 10:17 PM
I play offline and online and have had no problems with the 20mm's in German planes. If you get better results offline than you do online then it is likely lag or some other information transer problem that is causing the discrepency, not the game. To me the cannons work fine for both.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 10:29 PM
Try taking a FW 190 up against a Bf 109 and you'll find that it quickly falls apart under the 190's power like it does against Russian cannon equipped planes.

In some cases, its probably the feeling that because the Bf 109 (which is a fairly vulnerable plane) falls apart so quickly, why doesn't the other sides aircraft do so.

Even the single cannon on the Bf 109 I find to be very effective. Historically, after looking at some gun charts, the VVS tended to have the better cannons but there isn't a huge difference between the best German 20mm's (like those on late model FW's) and the Russian 20mm.

I usually find it more difficult to hit a target in a FW 190, despite practice, but I know that targets, if hit properly and consistently will go down very quickly. Try being on the other end of it as well.

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 12:02 AM
yes. I use 190A5's MG151/20mm+MGFF;I enconted some problems like above said. Now I use 120~180m consignment setup and make snap-shot in close range, then I almost can make the VVS plane burn...

But noticed that:

1>In balance of VVS side weapones, The German MG151/20 and MGFF's power is a bit weaker. I guess this is not the wrong of german-weapone's damage model. It's something wrong with the VVS plane's DM. And in other hand, something also quite strange of VVS's weapones.

2>But ofcause german's 20mm cannon can also works well(but not very bloody effect) in FB1.11 - use it more closer and more stabilization.

3>Dont talk anything when you use LW's 20mm againist AIs or just online-rookies, That's no meaning. For example, even just a level-and-straight flying P47, We can shot down him very easier use those 20mm canons. But against Online-Aces, you have no change of that easy killing. 190s only have Just a little chance of high-speed-pass and big-warp-angle shottings. So the correct DM in that way, is very very important.

I have a wish of that, MADDOX can turn the MG151/20 and MGFF a bit of more damage level, It will be great.

http://dof.cn/bbs/php/upfile/1064885776918Weaponeseff.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 02:06 AM
Howdy

-kyrule2 wrote:
- Weasel, we must be playing two different games then
- because I can destroy Yaks with ease. I am not
- trying to argue, its just my opinion. Oh well.

Perhaps we are, I'm playing IL2 FB ver 1.11. I don't
see why I can take the wing off a lagg41 with a snap shot
and just have a fuel leak on a Yak1 or Yak7B.
Or why a the .50's on the B239 would be more effective
at dismembering a Yak1 or Yak7b than the MGFF in a 109E?

It's just my opinion too.

S!
Weasel

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 03:35 AM
Weasel. I respect your opinion, I just happen to disagree. The .50's do seem particularly destructive against VVS planes, more so than against other planes. I used to scream about the Yak DM because it was so ridiculous, but to be honest I think it is great now, online and off. And I do find the 151/20's and MG-FF's to be very effective in snap shots or high deflection shots, not just parking on someone's six (which never happens online). Also, I fly the 190 all the time so I am only making high speed shots and never get the guns on target before long before overtaking my opponent. I agreed with what most people are saying here but after 1.11 I think the weapons and DM's are very good except Lagg and FW-190 which use a simplified model. I think the 109 should be a little tougher, especially where control surfaces are concerned, but this plane was historically fairly fragile by pilot accounts. Lastly, I think all small caliber mg's need a slight boost as they are almost completely ineffective. Just my thoughts.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

Message Edited on 10/02/03‚ 02:37AM by kyrule2

Message Edited on 10/02/0302:37AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 09:29 AM
3>Dont talk anything when you use LW's 20mm againist AIs or just online-rookies, That's no meaning. For example, even just a level-and-straight flying P47, We can shot down him very easier use those 20mm canons. But against Online-Aces, you have no change of that easy killing. 190s only have Just a little chance of high-speed-pass and big-warp-angle shottings. So the correct DM in that way, is very very important.

This, really, made me laugh.

What you're basically saying, is:

"Make the DM weaker for enemies of the 190, so we can shoot them down with one burst. Getting in really good hits against maneuvering pilots are so damn hard, as they never give us a chance to land consecutive hits on a single point! I want them going down the moment I hit them!"







-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:12 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
- I play offline and online and have had no problems
- with the 20mm's in German planes. If you get better
- results offline than you do online then it is likely
- lag or some other information transer problem that
- is causing the discrepency, not the game. To me the
- cannons work fine for both.
-

what do you aim for?

When firing from >100m distance or from high deflection you have a good chance to hit critical points (engine, wings, elevators, ...) and I is not hard to destroy/damage VVS planes this way.

I think the problem is when aiming straight at the fuselage from short distance as you "only" hit the fuselage.


once a La5FN pulled up in front of my 190A8, it was perfectly hanging in front of me turning a bit sideways, I had all guns convergence at 100m and opened fire at something less 100m, receiving a good burst he was still flying

I have no problem downing VVS planes, I wondered that he was still flying but the fight was over as he had lost his elevators and the engine left a small but final trail of black smoke

after reading this discussion I thought about it:

I fired from left behind slightly high, all six guns hit the target, with the aim wandering from tail to engine

some shells from the right cannons hit the elevator at the start of the burst and some shells from the left cannons hit the engine at the end of the burst

either the FEW shells at the begin or end of the burst would have ben enough to END the fight

the ~50 cannon and MG rounds between had NO effect

of course one more MG round and the whole plane might have fallen apart, but as FB has no overstress he could have continued flying like with an undamaged plane!

I think THIS IS THE POINT when people complain about "ineffectiv LW guns"

THEY AIM TO GOOD /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



quiet_man

second foundation member of the EURO_Snoopy fan club!

I'm quiet_man, but if I post I post quiet much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 04:52 PM
that CHN_EagleHearst table shows some data about Lw and VVS guns. look at 20mm cannon total energy and exlosion energy, compare Svak and Mg/ff20, Lw cannon should be 1.5 times as effective as Russian cannon. Dont know how accurate that table is, cos it says Mk108 has only 45 grams of He content, i thought it was 85 grams, which is H4A1 explosive, which is 2,7 times better than Ordinary TNT.

it should count a "bit"

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 05:32 PM
Enofinu wrote:

- Mk108 has only 45 grams of He content, i thought it
- was 85 grams, which is H4A1 explosive, which is 2,7
- times better than Ordinary TNT.
-
- it should count a "bit"



IIRC 45g is about the explosive content of 30mm HEI round, not MG which indeed has the mentioned 85g.

-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 06:04 PM
Gemtlemen, please, pay attention - in CHN_EagleHeart table values for muzzle velocity and "bullet" weight for ShVAK are incorrect in the table for some reason.

Both AIT and FI rounds weighted the same 96g and had same muzzle velocity - 815m/s.

Therefore - values for "muzzle energy" and "total energy" calculated incorrectly.

AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy



Message Edited on 10/02/0301:04PM by Bogun

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 09:03 PM
Bogun, do u have better tables somewhere, and info about what explosives russians used in 41-45 era rounds? TNT, tetryl??

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:52 PM
I'm amazed this thread has gone as far as it has without even one single track file being posted.

If you think the Shvak does "too much" damage, post a track of what you think is an excessive result from the number of shots fired. People can then examine it with arcade mode set to on and see exactly where the shots have hit and which plane sections the damage is applied to, frame by frame.

Ditto for German 20mm.

It's so incredibly easy to do and takes far less time than thinking up some new witty variation of Luftwhiner or VVSwhiner.

Typically the burden of proof is on the person making the claim in the first place, though I've had to make some of my own when some people have adamantly refused to post ones of their own and continue to spout crap regardless.

So. Let's see it.

My personal opinion is that if you are having issues with the power of the Luftwaffe cannons, you're probably not hitting the target at convergence range. 6 hits from and FW190A's 20mm and 13mm rounds sounds good, but it doesn't do much if two go in each opposite wingtip, two in each wingroot, and two 13mm bullets go in the tailplane. Get them all to hit the same place and it's an instant explosion kill 99% of the time. All of the soviet planes bar the early Il-2's have their 20mm's stuck on the nose, so there are few convergence issues to deal with. 109's also have the nose mount, but only half or one third as many cannons. Something you might want to think about.



http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 04:15 AM
Enofinu wrote:
- Bogun, do u have better tables somewhere, and info
- about what explosives russians used in 41-45 era
- rounds? TNT, tetryl??
-
-
-
-

There is a new great book - "Flying Guns WORLD WARII" by AnthonyG. Williams & Dr Emmanuel Gustin - it covers almost everything with barrels flying during WWII.

On a page 44 is shows for two ShVAK's HEI round (weight 91g and 96g) - 4.7 and 6.1g of RDX explosive (derivative of Cyclonite, like Hexogen).
This book actually state - ShVAK and B-20 muzzle velocity 860m/s.

Russians usually called ShVAK rounds not "high-explosive, incendiary" but "fragmentation, incendiary".


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 12:26 AM
still, german 20mm is too undermodelled. just a min ago played at online, scored long burst at enemy yaks and la:s, they only popped bit fuel, and if bit lucki, some light smoke. burst was bout 1,5 sec, which all hitted at enemy. it didnt lose wing, ailrons, elevators, only holes on it and bit smoke/fuel. thats it. it was still able to turn fight with me.
i dont know that does VVS planes have much toughter "skin" or what.
but please check again that. now it really feels really stupid, when u can down 109 with short Svak burst when need reeeaaaallly long hitted bursts on downing VVS planes.
it really annoys me.

my hit percentage in online is between 12-20%, depends of my mg usage, if i use it as harassing enemy far away etc. used to shoot when target under 150m away.

just try german 109 with 20mm in online, and u will notice how really fecking ineffective it is.

then try to shoot wooden air control tower with german 20mm, after that, try la5 and shoot at wooden tower, BIG difference in ammo what needed to blow it.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 01:43 AM
Hi Enofinu,

Please go back and read my previous post in this thread.



http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 06:07 PM
what does convergence range mean, if ill make all my cannon shells hit at target, while flying 109 G-2 without pods?? it only has cannon and 2 light mg:s on nose. where i need the "correct" convergence range then??

and for posting a track, im not able to do so, because can post only 1 meg files thru email. sure i can upload somewhere if ur able to give me an adress where to UL some.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 11:21 PM
johno__UK wrote:
- And another thing i am sick of getting an alt and
- speed advantage engaging la7's and then them
- clinging to ur but on the zoom back up with hardly
- any effort like they are magnetised to u or
- something hope all this gets sorted in next
- patch....

None of this will get fixed, ever.
Better just either to resort to the pre-1.1 test versions, or 1.1b, or to ban these abominations altogether.

I had the joy of playing the pre-1.0 FB release. It was a better game in many respects.


http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

prkl

XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 01:44 AM
Hi Enofinu,

The reason I ask you to post tracks is because of quotes from you such as this:

then try to shoot wooden air control tower with german 20mm, after that, try la5 and shoot at wooden tower, BIG difference in ammo what needed to blow it.

...

what does convergence range mean, if ill make all my cannon shells hit at target, while flying 109 G-2 without pods?? it only has cannon and 2 light mg:s on nose. where i need the "correct" convergence range then??

Track files can be very, very small, especially if they're compressed first. They're just a text file and they compress very well.

From the two quotes above from your last two messages to the thread, it kind of sounds to me like you're using one german Bf109 nose 20mm cannon and comparing the results to those from two soviet La5 nose 20mm cannons.

So. Like I keep having to say to you. Let's see what you think is the problem. And not with an unrecorded story about what happened to you online, or pleas for me to go and compare a plane with half as much armament as another for evidence of 'bias' - show me what you think is the matter. With a track file.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 10:51 AM
I have no problem of killing my VVS-opponents in FB 1.11 with MG151/20.. in 1.0 It was different, where you needed douzenz and douzens of hits to Yaks and I-16s.. Luckily Luft-whining paid off, and I have no problem of killing Migs and Yaks with only few hits. MG151/20 is probably modelled about right, but some planes indeed have a simplified DM, making it harder to bring down with MG151/20. Lavochkin-series need lot more work to bring, for example, than a Migg3.. ANd some bombers, such as PE-2 and Pe-3, series are very hard to bring down, since they have rather simple DM.. like you can't shoot their engines (sure the engines fall off, if you keep shooting them, but they don't start to burn making kills kinda hard).. in FW-190 PEs are naturally not a problem, but it is rather hard to bring down PE-2 with 109 F-4 for example..

I have a bigger problem with some other weapons, such as German MG17 beeing kinda ineffective, and some VVS-weapons beeing superpowerfull, like UBS and SHKAS. UBS is he without doubt the best HMG in this game, much better than MG151/15 or US M-2. A single 1 sec burst snaps of the wing of 109, while it takes 3 second burst to do the same from P-47's 8x .50cals.. and SHKAS is very powerfull MG for such light caliber, often makes me wonder if the bullets should be that powerfull (like compare them to Browning .303s.., browning are total crap).

Indeed, MG/FF in this game is more effective than MG151/20.. only problem is you gotta get really close to do the damage. One sec burst from EMils to a Lagg3, will blow the Lagg3 off. IT takes much longer time to do the same in F-4 or G-2.. Funny...



____________________________________



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/sig3.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 06:02 PM
Yeah that's for sure...
MG 151/20 is superior to Oerlikon in any way (except weight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

But still we can bring the russians down... Even with such guns.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 10:15 PM
Vipez- wrote:
- Indeed, MG/FF in this game is more effective than
- MG151/20.. only problem is you gotta get really
- close to do the damage. One sec burst from EMils to
- a Lagg3, will blow the Lagg3 off. IT takes much
- longer time to do the same in F-4 or G-2.. Funny...
Maybe because there are two MG/FF's in the Emil vs 1 MG151/20 in the other series?



http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/reincarnation.jpg (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
Are you damned? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
<

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 12:55 AM
I just had the most difficult time in QMB with the Mig 3ub-not the 1942 model but the earlier one. Unloaded all my 20mm shells of my 109f4 into it and she kept on flying. I had arcade on and I had about 8 good hits and no kill. The later Mig blows up with 7.7mm bullets. no consistancy

http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/insignia/italy/incocca-tende-scaglia.jpg
Saluti!
<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 03:00 AM
Howdy

-clint-ruin wrote:
- Track files can be very, very small, especially if
- they're compressed first. They're just a text file
- and they compress very well.
-

trk files don't play back correctly, when I've tried them.
ntrk files do not compress. I assume they are compressed
before they are written.

Posting track files is a good idea.. Being able to post
said track files is an entirely different story however.

Are you volunteering trk hosting space?

S!
Weasel

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:38 AM
FiNaZZi wrote:
-
- Vipez- wrote:
-- Indeed, MG/FF in this game is more effective than
-- MG151/20.. only problem is you gotta get really
-- close to do the damage. One sec burst from EMils to
-- a Lagg3, will blow the Lagg3 off. IT takes much
-- longer time to do the same in F-4 or G-2.. Funny...
- Maybe because there are two MG/FF's in the Emil vs 1
- MG151/20 in the other series?
-
-


NO.. I meant I did some tests with FW190 A-5, and Two outer wing MG/FFM was indeed more effective, than inner wing MG151/20 on A-5.. Or it is just my imagination.. but I only need couple of hits with MG/FF to shot down a PE-2, and lot more with MG151/20.. In EMil its the same, seems about 4-8 hits with MG/FF blow up Lagg3 everytime, and when you shoot 4 hits with F-4, Lagg3 is still far from beeing blown away from the sky..


____________________________________



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/sig3.jpg </center>