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gxr_vallug
08-28-2005, 09:11 PM
Hello http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif First of all, I am very new to the game (one week?) and I love it. I used to fly a very old flight simulator but I cannot anymore because it's too old.

I've taken some of your advice and learned to fly well enough by practicing in quick mission buildier. I started off with a few bombers to practice aiming (engines) and worked my way to fighting enemy pilots of veteran skill.

I have been flying fairly well but I seem to be stuck against this skill level. One of the things that ALWAYS sets me off balance is when the enemy pilot half rolls to the deck and starts rolling all over the bloody place. I ease way back on the throttle and try to match his rolls but it does not seem to be of any use, I always shoot past him and his cannons rip through me :P

So, any advice/tips on a scissor fight (I'm assuming this is what I'm having trouble with, excuse my new-ness) would be really helpful.

Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

P.S: How old are most of you o.O

[edit] I have the Forgotten Battles and Expansion Pack, just in case that will help you..

sunflower1
08-28-2005, 09:48 PM
See the "Who we are thread" above.

Here's how I often handle that:

Let the bandit torch his energy level. He's getting lower and using big control inputs, bleeding off potential energy each time. Just let him do it while preserving your energy state or improving on it. Keep the bandit someplace below you where you can plan a boom and zoom when he stops acting foolishly.

If you try to stay in a firing position you're inviting his homeboys to whup up on you even if you don't end up in front of his guns.

Scissors is the process of trying to gain advantage. You're already in a firing position but the bandit is evading like the Ki-43's do and they're hard to hit when they're doing that. Just be patient and take a moment to check your own six. The bandit isn't going anywhere unless his a/c can extend in a dive and you're up high.

Preserve or improve your advantage and look for a better shot.

My 2 cents.

-HH-Dubbo
08-29-2005, 03:12 AM
It's funny, I came in here expecting a description of two guys going at each other with a pair of scissors (Not the good scissors Mum!) Unfortunately I have nothing to contribute. Listen to Sunflower though - he knows his craft and in spite of his 85+ years, usually manages to convey pointers quite well. Just be thankful he didn't start his response with "Well, when I was a boy..." because they usually prove to be quite lengthy and sometimes he falls asleep before arriving at the point ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tully__
08-29-2005, 05:22 AM
As soon as he starts that nonsense, break off and gain height instead of cutting throttle. When you get a bit of separation he'll settle back to level flight and you dive back down for another pass.

dieg777
08-29-2005, 06:00 AM
Hi

All fights are controlled by the energy of the planes. A scissors or break is trying to use your excess energy against you. There are moves to counter these see here for some good links

http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Air_combat_manoeuvring

good luck

Kuna15
08-29-2005, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
As soon as he starts that nonsense, break off and gain height instead of cutting throttle. When you get a bit of separation he'll settle back to level flight and you dive back down for another pass.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif that advice works in just about any plane you're in.

Also you may want to try Bf-109G, these are champions in decceleration, so if AI tries scissors with you should be able to follow. Deploy flaps as well.

Best thing is maybe that you regain alt, and try another pass, as Tully and sunflower1 suggested.

vanjast
08-29-2005, 03:26 PM
Have a look at this..

http://www.vanjast.com/images/Elite.avi (53MB)

(NB: Listen to the FW engine sounds)

This online shot was in Full Real (FR) mode. Energy fighting is very difficult in FR mode. You will lose sight of your opponent, as it happend 3x in this movie (P51 = 2x, me=1x). This enabled me to gain the advantage.

On easy setting energy fighting is a breeze, actually it teaches you nothing. ASAP convert to FR settings (offline with rookie pilots is a start) and you learn very quickly what needs to be done in order to 'survive'. everybody has their own developed formula's for this.

Good Luck
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

VW-IceFire
08-29-2005, 03:35 PM
Ahh...not truly a scissors fight. The AI doesn't even do a good barrel roll well...but its closest to a barrel roll and not really a scissors.

In any case, just let the AI do its silly thing, shoot them if you can, don't bother to match the moves, and wait till they pull out at the bottom. Then torch them.

vanjast
08-29-2005, 03:55 PM
Oh VW, is your comment to me ??

anyway if so, Nope there's no AI here, but here's some AI (yaks) and flying much better than online guys, as the AI always knows where you are.. so cammo does not help. These are just quickie movies that I made in 3/4 hours worth.

http://www.vanjast.com/images/FWTut.avi

gxr_vallug this is how you handle yak3's. Nothing short of Full Real settings

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hristo_
08-29-2005, 04:33 PM
Scissors work best against a plane on your six with much greater speed and preferably worse low speed handling. A slow plane on your six will have many opportunities to shoot you down before you capitalize on the scissors. Even more so if the opponent flies a dedicated turner.

Learn to fly your plane while looking back. Practice it so much that you can do scissors while looking back all the time. Watch your pursuer. Always try to have 180 degrees bank difference.

Enemy will have snapshot opportunities. To minimize those, try to roll to the ground and below his nose instead up.

Sometimes the opponent will choose to zoom up while you scissor in front. Watch for that moment. He may lose sight of you. Use this time to gain speed and separation, head for friendlies if you can. You now have a decent chance to get away. The moment he notices what you've done, you can be sure he will latch on you and will not pull up again. This time he will press the attack.

Don't try to finish the fight in scissors. In many vs many it is all too easy to get ********ed. Instead, try to cross paths as close to 180 degrees as possible. Once this happens, just get away. Be satisfied that you've survived, you don't need to kill every plane that attacks you. Greed kills.

109, IMO, is the king of scissors. The draggy hotrod is a so eager to slow down as it wants to accelerate once you push the throttle.(Here I will use the opportunity to thank all the people who insisted how draggy the 109 was. You made it all possible to use this to great effect when one needs to slow down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.) You may want to cut the throttle, dump flaps and use PP to slow down. Just not at the wrong moment, be careful not to become a sitting duck. The whole purpose of scissors is to make an enemy overshoot. Once he does that, firewall the throttle and park on his six.

190 is good in scissors, but its roll rate is not what it should be. Maybe in new versions it will become better. Generally, use rollrate to maneuver out of plane of your pursuer. Pull on the stick until he aligns his wings with yours, then roll back.

Christos_swc
08-29-2005, 05:21 PM
As a rule of thumb, whenever an opponent does something that bleeds energy, climb.
If you have an energy advantage you have nothing to worry about other than killing him before you run out of ammo or get attacked by someone else.
Also whenever in a vertical fight and diving to gain speed, pull your nose up and start regaining alt before your speed gets too high or you'll be losing energy to drag.
Avoid too much input with the stick and once you get the E advantage land on their head.
Perhaps you should practice flying the FW 190A.
It's no good for anything other than energy tactics and stalls easily, especially with the quick roll that will lure you into violent manouvres.
Strange thing about the quick roll of the 190 though, I fly so smooth I don't really use much of it other than to make quick correction for shot.

Hristo_
08-29-2005, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Christos_swc:
As a rule of thumb, whenever an opponent does something that bleeds energy, climb.

Not always, he may get away. I've tricked more than one Spit on my six in a 190. I scissored, he climbed, I extended. End of fight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.



If you have an energy advantage you have nothing to worry about other than killing him before you run out of ammo or get attacked by someone else.


One factor you disregarded is time needed to make the kill. Any second you waste is gonna come back in your face. In form of reinforcement already on the way to the plane you are fighting. This is not a duel, your time is very limited.



Strange thing about the quick roll of the 190 though, I fly so smooth I don't really use much of it other than to make quick correction for shot.

It is a blessing. Try 109 and then come back to 190 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. As things are now, we are not enjoying the full 190 rollrate. With correct values, scissors may become even more valid option for the 190.

Christos_swc
08-29-2005, 05:40 PM
Actually I didn't disregard time to make the kill, I think it's right there in the sentence.
I don't see myself doing anything other than vertical fighting in the 190s.
Scissors?
That will be the day.
The only a/c I seem to have a chance of surviving when at a disadvantage is the Dora.
Diving for the ground and rolling at the very last moment to pull up in the opposite direction will do it every time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
08-29-2005, 05:50 PM
First of all I am quite new to flying online and am not sure what 'scissors' are but from what you wrote I will attempt to answer your question.


Forget slowing yourself down,

COme up behind him fast and get a shot or 2 in then pull up so that you are above him (this will stop you overshooting but you will keep your speed/height. ( you should be directly above him travelling in his direction.)

Then take a look down at which direction he is heading now and dive back down on him, take another shot, if you miss then just repeat.

Pull back up about 50-75m so you dont overshoot, take a look down and dive back on him.

Eventually you will get him and are totally safe from his guns.

The only probelm with this is that you are very vulnerable to other fighters as you pull up above him to save the overshoot.


Oh and I'm 31.

OldMan____
08-29-2005, 06:26 PM
Scissors are fun to make when your enemy drop too much confident.

For example.. one of best ways fot a FW to evade a P38 late now is drag it for a slow scissor fight . WHAT! Slow!!?? Yes! Slow.. He WILL comit since he feels he has the edge at slow fight (mostly ture), but when it tries to roll at 270 kph he will see he made a very bad mistake. Same about a Mustang III.. they usually drop like rocks when scissoring at very low speeds.

Think about that. You may decide to never commit to a sicssor unless your plane is able to do it without too much danger. That means 109 and Spit mostly.


As a Rule of thumb.. I just quit and forget of any enemy that is aware of me and I cannot get a clear shot solution in next 5 seconds.... Go look for some unaware target.