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NextBarbaPapa
09-09-2005, 06:58 AM
Hello all

Two topics:

1. Zoom climb vs sustained climb

Fighters that had better sustained climb (usualy T&B fighters) in most cases had worse zoom climb than their opponents AND worse sustained climb at high speeds. This can be explained simply by physics/aerodynamics: Usualy they (ones with good sustained climb) were lighter, had big wings (so greater drag etc)... Heavier fighters had bigger inertia for zoomclimb, plus less or equal drag. If we take two similar objects, where one is let's say 1.2 times bigger than other, it will have 1.2^3=1.728 times greater mass, and only 1.2^2=1.44 times greater front surface, creating drag, so it should slow down slower than smaller-lighter one.

In this sim it seems this is not completely correct as many heavy fighters cannot use their superior zoom climb to get away from chasing TnB fighters, as the latter seem to outclimb BnZ opponents at ALL speeds and also in zoom climb. Nice example is SpitfireMkIXvFw190A, or Bf109G/K v P51 or P38.

If we observe speed bleeding when pulling from a dive: planes like Fw190A should bleed their speed slower than persuer like Yak9 or spitfire MkIX, or F6F should bleed slower than Ki43 or Zero (be careful: here I am speaking about a dive, where both planes pull out with EQUAL speed)

So, basically fighters like P47, F6F, Fw190A should bleed speed slower than they do in this sim. Fw190 was known to be hard to slow down with on approach, even british test pilots reported about that.

2. Energy retention (in turns)

Yes, B&Z planes turn worse than T&B planes. But in this sim they also do bleed more speed at HIGH speed turns. There are many combat reports claiming that fighters like Fw190D for exaple bleeded way less speed during higs speed turns compared to their TnB oppponents like Spitfire, Yak9 family or La5/7. From physical point of view reasons are quite similar to one above. BnZ planes like Fw190, Tempest, Mustang, F6F, Thunderbolt should bleed less speed than they do in this sim.

From late thirties, when most fighters were turn and burners, till 1945, fighter desing went gradually from TnB to BnZ.

Now, if you get 20 novice flight simmers, that never saw FB-AEP-PF before, and give 10 of them 50 flight hours to learn to fly a particular BnZ plane (Fw190 or a P51), and the other group to learn to fly TnB plane (Me109 or Yak), and then you get them to kill eachother, BnZers are going to get their asses kicked big time.

Nice example is also F6F v A6M5 or even A6M2 in this sim... I probably don't have to say a word, do I?

So, generaly BnZ fighters should be better than they are OR TnB should not be so good as they are.

Anyone, which can support what I wrote above with reliable sources, please do so and post here.

Thank you for reading,

M

NextBarbaPapa
09-09-2005, 06:58 AM
Hello all

Two topics:

1. Zoom climb vs sustained climb

Fighters that had better sustained climb (usualy T&B fighters) in most cases had worse zoom climb than their opponents AND worse sustained climb at high speeds. This can be explained simply by physics/aerodynamics: Usualy they (ones with good sustained climb) were lighter, had big wings (so greater drag etc)... Heavier fighters had bigger inertia for zoomclimb, plus less or equal drag. If we take two similar objects, where one is let's say 1.2 times bigger than other, it will have 1.2^3=1.728 times greater mass, and only 1.2^2=1.44 times greater front surface, creating drag, so it should slow down slower than smaller-lighter one.

In this sim it seems this is not completely correct as many heavy fighters cannot use their superior zoom climb to get away from chasing TnB fighters, as the latter seem to outclimb BnZ opponents at ALL speeds and also in zoom climb. Nice example is SpitfireMkIXvFw190A, or Bf109G/K v P51 or P38.

If we observe speed bleeding when pulling from a dive: planes like Fw190A should bleed their speed slower than persuer like Yak9 or spitfire MkIX, or F6F should bleed slower than Ki43 or Zero (be careful: here I am speaking about a dive, where both planes pull out with EQUAL speed)

So, basically fighters like P47, F6F, Fw190A should bleed speed slower than they do in this sim. Fw190 was known to be hard to slow down with on approach, even british test pilots reported about that.

2. Energy retention (in turns)

Yes, B&Z planes turn worse than T&B planes. But in this sim they also do bleed more speed at HIGH speed turns. There are many combat reports claiming that fighters like Fw190D for exaple bleeded way less speed during higs speed turns compared to their TnB oppponents like Spitfire, Yak9 family or La5/7. From physical point of view reasons are quite similar to one above. BnZ planes like Fw190, Tempest, Mustang, F6F, Thunderbolt should bleed less speed than they do in this sim.

From late thirties, when most fighters were turn and burners, till 1945, fighter desing went gradually from TnB to BnZ.

Now, if you get 20 novice flight simmers, that never saw FB-AEP-PF before, and give 10 of them 50 flight hours to learn to fly a particular BnZ plane (Fw190 or a P51), and the other group to learn to fly TnB plane (Me109 or Yak), and then you get them to kill eachother, BnZers are going to get their asses kicked big time.

Nice example is also F6F v A6M5 or even A6M2 in this sim... I probably don't have to say a word, do I?

So, generaly BnZ fighters should be better than they are OR TnB should not be so good as they are.

Anyone, which can support what I wrote above with reliable sources, please do so and post here.

Thank you for reading,

M

BSS_Goat
09-09-2005, 07:08 AM
I agree....

NextBarbaPapa
09-09-2005, 07:54 AM
Problem here is that it is very hard to find reliable data to back this up. There are only "opinions" or "descriptions" like that one of Walther Romm: "At altitudes between 3 and 8k dora retained energy during high speed tight turns much better than my opponents" He was reffering to yak3 and 9s here.

tigertalon
09-09-2005, 09:12 AM
Generally agree with you, however data is needed. Will try to dig something up.

tigertalon
09-09-2005, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Generally agree with you, however data is needed. Will try to dig something up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/tempest/temptest.html

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Climb
45. The Tempest is behind the Me.109G at all heights, but being almost similar below 5,000 feet. The Tempest is only slightly better in a zoom climb if the two aircraft start at the same speed, but if the Tempest has an initial advantage, it will hold this advantage easily providing the speed is kept over 250 mph.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

FatBoyHK
09-09-2005, 09:28 AM
yes, it is generally agreed that the current game engine favors TnB plane... but don't blame oleg, I bet he wouldn't know this engine would be that popular and still in use after 6 years....

look forward, look BoB.

WOLFMondo
09-09-2005, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NextBarbaPapa:

In this sim it seems this is not completely correct as many heavy fighters cannot use their superior zoom climb to get away from chasing TnB fighters, as the latter seem to outclimb BnZ opponents at ALL speeds and also in zoom climb. Nice example is SpitfireMkIXvFw190A, or Bf109G/K v P51 or P38. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't really buy that. The P47 is the only one thats at a serious disadvantage with its intertia but the 109's are good zoom climbers which the Tempest report above confirms cause the Tempest was considered to have excellent zoom climb, better than most other alied and axis aircraft. Theres also the prop pitch cheat to factor in and whether or not the virtual pilot has used it etc.

The 190A4 vs Spitfire VB used to be pretty accurate if the 190 climbed at the right angle. Not sure about the A9 vs IX but online isn't a good way to make assumptions and neither is against the AI because AI is fubar and online you have no idea about your persuers energy state or even things like how hot there motor is and if at any point they reduce power or in the 190's case using prop pitch correctly and rad settings.

I agree about the Hellcat and wildcat though, something is very wrong there.

NextBarbaPapa
09-09-2005, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NextBarbaPapa:

In this sim it seems this is not completely correct as many heavy fighters cannot use their superior zoom climb to get away from chasing TnB fighters, as the latter seem to outclimb BnZ opponents at ALL speeds and also in zoom climb. Nice example is SpitfireMkIXvFw190A, or Bf109G/K v P51 or P38. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't really buy that. The P47 is the only one thats at a serious disadvantage with its intertia but the 109's are good zoom climbers which the Tempest report above confirms cause the Tempest was considered to have excellent zoom climb, better than most other alied and axis aircraft. Theres also the prop pitch cheat to factor in and whether or not the virtual pilot has used it etc.

The 190A4 vs Spitfire VB used to be pretty accurate if the 190 climbed at the right angle. Not sure about the A9 vs IX but online isn't a good way to make assumptions and neither is against the AI because AI is fubar and online you have no idea about your persuers energy state or even things like how hot there motor is and if at any point they reduce power or in the 190's case using prop pitch correctly and rad settings.

I agree about the Hellcat and wildcat though, something is very wrong there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WolfMondo,

believe or not, up there I made a mistake, I ment P51 and P47, not P38. It is pretty clear that zoom climb between Bf109 and P47 is not correct. P47 should be able to maintain his speed way longer compared to Bf109 in a zoomclimb with equal speed.
This is not the case, he will catch up on you.
The same goes for P51.
Exactly same situation is if you are flying Fw190A or and are pursued by spitfire. In a shallow zoomclimb (I mean climb at speeds between 700kph to 500kph and not lower), Fw should bleed speed slower even than spitIX. In this sim it's not the case, spit will catch up on you.

I never fly against AI and make conclusions after it. And prop pitch might be an issue here, but I never use such tricks, and I fly 109 often - I have a general feeling of what it can do.

carguy_
09-09-2005, 12:18 PM
T&B planes have too high zoomclimb and climb rates overall.

I have a trk where I climb in F2 against an I16 from 4000m to 8000m.There was no deiiference in distance after climbing to 8000m.


Recent patches changed alot.Before PF the T&B planes were particulary prounounced at turning abilities whereas B&Z planes were not enough relatively better at climbing to sustain an alititude advantage after attack.

From 3.01 I think I see T&B planes also have their advantages less and less prunounced.In result we have B&Z planes that are able to turnfight for a limited time and T&B fighters which outclass their better climbing counterparts at certain speeds.

Just make a zoomclimb test I16 vs Bf109E7 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

WOLFMondo
09-09-2005, 12:30 PM
When measuring zoom climb do you take into account superchargers and the altitudes they switch to the next gear?

Take the Spitfire VB 1944 which produced its maxiumum HP at sealevel but at 12,000ft its only producing half its 1500HP. So around 12,000ft its zoom climb will be laughable but at 1000ft its zoom climbs probably pretty good.

NextBarbaPapa, I use prop pitch but I never fly the 109's. You have to use it constantly to fly a 190A and get the most out of it.

NextBarbaPapa
09-09-2005, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
NextBarbaPapa, I use prop pitch but I never fly the 109's. You have to use it constantly to fly a 190A and get the most out of it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I am using it aswell, like you said, you can get a considerable boost to Fw190A and D (but you can fry the D9Late engine without overheat - overrev).

On 109 historically you could get some boost overreving the engine, but for sure not for a few tens of kphs, like in this sim. This is why I don't use manual pitch on 109.

WOLFMondo
09-09-2005, 01:11 PM
I don't use it on the D9, i have tried it but I don't think there is any difference in performance and the risk of burning the motor out is too high.

Jaws2002
09-09-2005, 02:02 PM
I'm not sure about it. I don't think there is a general rule.
I was surprized to find out that the Zero ( great climber but very light) had a much better zoom climb then P40, F4F and other early US planes.
I think zoom climb is more related to individual design of the aircraft.

Kuna15
09-09-2005, 02:42 PM
Interesting read.

Tvrdi
09-09-2005, 03:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NextBarbaPapa:
Hello all

Two topics:

1. Zoom climb vs sustained climb

Fighters that had better sustained climb (usualy T&B fighters) in most cases had worse zoom climb than their opponents AND worse sustained climb at high speeds. This can be explained simply by physics/aerodynamics: Usualy they (ones with good sustained climb) were lighter, had big wings (so greater drag etc)... Heavier fighters had bigger inertia for zoomclimb, plus less or equal drag. If we take two similar objects, where one is let's say 1.2 times bigger than other, it will have 1.2^3=1.728 times greater mass, and only 1.2^2=1.44 times greater front surface, creating drag, so it should slow down slower than smaller-lighter one.

In this sim it seems this is not completely correct as many heavy fighters cannot use their superior zoom climb to get away from chasing TnB fighters, as the latter seem to outclimb BnZ opponents at ALL speeds and also in zoom climb. Nice example is SpitfireMkIXvFw190A, or Bf109G/K v P51 or P38.

If we observe speed bleeding when pulling from a dive: planes like Fw190A should bleed their speed slower than persuer like Yak9 or spitfire MkIX, or F6F should bleed slower than Ki43 or Zero (be careful: here I am speaking about a dive, where both planes pull out with EQUAL speed)

So, basically fighters like P47, F6F, Fw190A should bleed speed slower than they do in this sim. Fw190 was known to be hard to slow down with on approach, even british test pilots reported about that.

2. Energy retention (in turns)

Yes, B&Z planes turn worse than T&B planes. But in this sim they also do bleed more speed at HIGH speed turns. There are many combat reports claiming that fighters like Fw190D for exaple bleeded way less speed during higs speed turns compared to their TnB oppponents like Spitfire, Yak9 family or La5/7. From physical point of view reasons are quite similar to one above. BnZ planes like Fw190, Tempest, Mustang, F6F, Thunderbolt should bleed less speed than they do in this sim.

From late thirties, when most fighters were turn and burners, till 1945, fighter desing went gradually from TnB to BnZ.

Now, if you get 20 novice flight simmers, that never saw FB-AEP-PF before, and give 10 of them 50 flight hours to learn to fly a particular BnZ plane (Fw190 or a P51), and the other group to learn to fly TnB plane (Me109 or Yak), and then you get them to kill eachother, BnZers are going to get their asses kicked big time.

Nice example is also F6F v A6M5 or even A6M2 in this sim... I probably don't have to say a word, do I?

So, generaly BnZ fighters should be better than they are OR TnB should not be so good as they are.

Anyone, which can support what I wrote above with reliable sources, please do so and post here.

Thank you for reading,

M </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


ofcourse, you can catch anything in anything in this sim...in climb and dive....I guess its a compromise for better gameplay...imagine all those noobs, kids and nervous respawners in dog when they realise they could not reach somebodys plane....Its not the only thing tuned so we can have bigger community online....f it...for the same reason they changed FM after betapatch...so we can all play like in the f kindergarten..its time for the real sim..i hope BoB would separate sim hardcorers from the FPS/CFS paratroopers..the second group wouldnt last long in BoB

Badsight.
09-09-2005, 03:23 PM
real tactics dont work when your real life isnt in danger

i do all i can to bag the person who shot at me . . . . . instead of running as fast as i can for safety

Kuna15
09-09-2005, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
real tactics dont work when your real life isnt in danger

i do all i can to bag the person who shot at me . . . . . instead of running as fast as i can for safety </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the most sane sentences I have read lately. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif