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View Full Version : Spitfire - big joke with its zoom climb and dive



Kwiatos
05-06-2005, 10:44 AM
Probably these theme was talking many times but i write it one more time. As i read Spitfire until model MK XIV wasn't good in dive and zoom climb. They were much worse than Fw 190 even in dive were worse than Bf 109. But what happens in these game is big mistake. I know from many test and books that Spitfire was good in turnrate and in climb rate (expecially later models - MK IX) but for god sake not in dive and zoom climb. What could Spitfre expecialy MK IX in ZOOM CLIMB IS JUST BIG JOKE. I wonder why 1C and Oleg M. dont see these. I fly allside planes and my sqn 303 fly in red side but i dont want to fly such bad moddeling plane. I just want Spitfire to be normal plane not such ufo. All spitfire flyers are called noobs in spits , spitfire is called noobfire etc. Why Spitfire can't be normal plane not ufo??

crazyivan1970
05-06-2005, 10:52 AM
That`s a weak argument Kwiatos, you gotta do better then this, at least in ORR. Hit us with something good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kwiatos
05-06-2005, 10:56 AM
Ivan have you any doubt that zoom climb and dive of Spitfire exp. MK IX is amazing, too amazing?

FA_Whisky
05-06-2005, 11:06 AM
Is this gonna be another fun thread?

I do agree btw (note sig.)

Kwiatos
05-06-2005, 11:09 AM
See these document and comments about dive and climb from dive:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/109gtac.html

As we see Bf 109 G in dive can leave Spitfire MK IX without any difficulty.
In climb from dive both planes are equal.

And these site:
http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire9v190.htm

Some notice:
- The FW 190 is faster than the Spitfire IX in a dive, particularly during the initial stage. This superiority is not as marked as with the Spitfire VB

- The initial acceleration of the FW 190 is better than that of the Spitfire IX under all conditions of flight, except in level flight at altitudes where the Spitfire has a speed advantage.
Yea try acceleration of Fw 190 in FB/PF these plane is like big mule !!!

Hetzer_II
05-06-2005, 11:18 AM
no, no...

i was quiet behind Kwiatos on warclouds this time... he began the climb with a much greater speed than the spit but the spit gets closer and closer with time... Kwiatos was shot by the spit on the upperpoint of his climb... he attacked the spit from above with a good speed advantage. and than gets into climb...

This behaviour is not much more than a bad joke... anty gravity pads are not fair ;-)

Tvrdi
05-06-2005, 11:28 AM
I agree with u 100%....like you, I red so many books (including RAF and LW aces interviews) and what I found there I will summarize in this few notes/facts:

Spit IX was slightly faster than FW190 (from the same period) at most hights and their climb rates were comparable. However, FW190 was faster in a dive and had superior roll rate. BF109 from the same period was faster in a dive and their zoom climb capablities were comparable but SpitIX was better in turns.....

Spit V was inferior to the LW planes from the same period, it was better ONLY in turns....

Spits II was about equal to the Emil (Emil was slightly better diver and climber than Spit I and had stronger armament)


ehh Spit XIV entered into the service when LW existed only on paper...and it was already too late for the LW....anyway Spit XIV was superior to any BF109 and superior to any FW190 (except Dora)....


Ivan, for some things which are so obvious u even dont need any docs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif you can recognize them from the moon if you call urself a serious aviation fan

BBB_Hyperion
05-06-2005, 11:34 AM
Why we talk always about zoomclimb lets talk about i16 top dive speed and then the speed possible ingame. Maybe we get closer to the point of whats wrong and what is right then ,) BTW this problem influences zoomclimb and divespeed to similar degrees. Maybe someone can do a independed test ?

Kwiatos
05-06-2005, 11:39 AM
Yea Hetzer today's sesion in Warclouds make my nerves very badly exacly after such stupid actions.
I remeber 1 of them when i had adventage from Spitfire IX and i was in spiral climb in my Bf 109 G 14. Spitfire was lower and in my 3 o'clock. After few cirles i saw that he hasn't too much energy and i was ab. 300m higher in circle. I got ab. 280 km/h so i get straight then made zoom climb and at the end reverse. During reverse i looking at Spitfire and he just closing to me and shooting. He get the same hight as i then get my six. How these end is not hard to guess.
I fly Spitfires and know what these plane can do.

Tvrdi
05-06-2005, 11:41 AM
I think it was mentioned long before here...Dive speed differencies are almost non existable in the game....thats the f problem....I said this before - YOU CAN CATCH EVERYONE IN EVERY PLANE WITH EVERY PLANE FROM THE SAME PERIOD BECAUSE OF THE BETTER GAMEPLAY....otherwise our community wouldnt be so big http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tvrdi
05-06-2005, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Kwiatos:
Yea Hetzer today's sesion in Warclouds make my nerves very badly exacly after such stupid actions.
I remeber 1 of them when i had adventage from Spitfire IX and i was in spiral climb in my Bf 109 G 14. Spitfire was lower and in my 3 o'clock. After few cirles i saw that he hasn't too much energy and i was ab. 300m higher in circle. I got ab. 280 km/h so i get straight then made zoom climb and at the end reverse. During reverse i looking at Spitfire and he just closing to me and shooting. He get the same hight as i then get my six. How these end is not hard to guess.
I fly Spitfires and know what these plane can do.


yes I noticed that when Im in Spit I can catch anyboy who is in Messer when climbing....I can drink a f coffe and climb and in short time Im with big f smile filling him with my bullets...thats why Im not flyin this plane any more (and i looove Spit)...

SlickStick
05-06-2005, 11:56 AM
All your LW planes are belong to us. MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

P.S. - Whatcha gonna do when the Mk. XIV gets here?!?!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

P.S.S - Rants without facts fall on deaf ears around here, just FYI. When a guy like Robban75 or similar actually take the time to test and post actual numbers, those are the types of facts that get looked into.

robban75
05-06-2005, 12:07 PM
At what speed range can the actual zoom climb be measured? I'd love to do some testing if I could get a good procedure to work with. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

According to my testing there is something not right with the current Spitfire dive acceleration. Not even the mighty MkXIV could catch a Fw 190 in a dive. In the game the IX can effectivelly keep pace with the 190. The 190 almost needs to reach transonic speeds before it begins to pull away.

I can post the results if you guys would want that.

Thanks for the kind words SlickStick! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

robban75
05-06-2005, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Tvrdi:
I think it was mentioned long before here...Dive speed differencies are almost non existable in the game....thats the f problem....I said this before - YOU CAN CATCH EVERYONE IN EVERY PLANE WITH EVERY PLANE FROM THE SAME PERIOD BECAUSE OF THE BETTER GAMEPLAY....otherwise our community wouldnt be so big http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Not true anymore! Differential dive acceleration has been modelled for quite some time actually. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
05-06-2005, 12:27 PM
that's true the FW is unable to seperate from the IX and VIII spits in a dive nor climb.

faustnik
05-06-2005, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by robban75:


I can post the results if you guys would want that.



Yes please. Level acceleration would be interesting too, if you are the testing mood. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

SlickStick
05-06-2005, 12:36 PM
Hmmm, very strange to hear others results for diving, because the Spitfire I'm flying is good for about 720 - 730km/h in a dive. Anything after that and bits are flying off.

Even trying any type of turn at 690ish and it is usually wingsnap city. I generally fly the Mk. VIII and LW birds like the K4 and 190-A9 regularly dive away from me easily. Even on the deck the K4 and 190-A9 are faster than the Mk. VIII.

The trick is staying close enough to not let them turn around without at least a 1.5km extension. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

robban75 wrote: "Thanks for the kind words SlickStick!"

I always give credit where credit is due. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LeadSpitter_
05-06-2005, 12:56 PM
all spitfires are not that bad opponents, 109s can outroll them highspeed, keep higher speed much longer, 109s have much better stall characteristics, 109s have much better elevator high speed then the spitties yak lagg mig etc.

Problem with the spitfire is when it should have no energy it can climb only 50m higher then a 109 with no E thats it, more then enough range for 20mm to explode it in one burst.

right now thats the only advantage the spit has over the 109 which is not correct. Still the spit still gets slaughtered online.

I would like to see the floating 50kmph stall of the 109s changed but give them thier climb advantage. And make 20mm somewhat difficult to aim and losse rudder like the real ac had.

Right now the 109s huge advantage is its floating, its top dog fighting weapon 108 cannon which is second best dogfighting weapon in the game, first is shvak. The 109s huge advantage is in a 790kmph in dive trottle back to 120kmph in seconds then ram throttle forward and be at 560kmph in seconds, no other plane can do this and why it does so well online, also its overev exploit which is still used.

Hopefully the patch will work on alot of these issues.

faustnik
05-06-2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
109s have much better elevator high speed then the spitties yak lagg mig etc.


What??? I don't fly the 109 much but, the times that I've had to, the high speed elevator authority was awful. Maybe I don't understand exactly what you are talking about???

robban75
05-06-2005, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robban75:


I can post the results if you guys would want that.



Yes please. Level acceleration would be interesting too, if you are the testing mood. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

About the acceleration comparison, should I use auto prop pitch or 100% prop pitch. I'll refrase that, should I use auto pp or 100% pp when testing the Fw 190 period? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

faustnik
05-06-2005, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
About the acceleration comparison, should I use auto prop pitch or 100% prop pitch. I'll refrase that, should I use auto pp or 100% pp when testing the Fw 190 period? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Do you even have to ask me that question Robban? You know what I'll say, "both please!"
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BuzzU
05-06-2005, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
all spitfires are not that bad opponents, 109s can outroll them highspeed, keep higher speed much longer, 109s have much better stall characteristics, 109s have much better elevator high speed then the spitties yak lagg mig etc.

Problem with the spitfire is when it should have no energy it can climb only 50m higher then a 109 with no E thats it, more then enough range for 20mm to explode it in one burst.

right now thats the only advantage the spit has over the 109 which is not correct. Still the spit still gets slaughtered online.

I would like to see the floating 50kmph stall of the 109s changed but give them thier climb advantage. And make 20mm somewhat difficult to aim and losse rudder like the real ac had.

Right now the 109s huge advantage is its floating, its top dog fighting weapon 108 cannon which is second best dogfighting weapon in the game, first is shvak. The 109s huge advantage is in a 790kmph in dive trottle back to 120kmph in seconds then ram throttle forward and be at 560kmph in seconds, no other plane can do this and why it does so well online, also its overev exploit which is still used.

Hopefully the patch will work on alot of these issues.

Reading your post would make someone think the 109 is more of a noob plane than the Spit. Your thoughts on why the Spit is called a noob plane?

Atzebrueck
05-06-2005, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
109s have much better elevator high speed then the spitties yak lagg mig etc.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Tvrdi
05-06-2005, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:

"...Still the spit still gets slaughtered online...."


and what are you think, how many newbies flies in Spit and how many in BF109? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tvrdi
05-06-2005, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Tvrdi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:

"...Still the spit still gets slaughtered online...."


and what do you think, how many newbies flies in Spit and how many in BF109? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

robban75
05-06-2005, 01:50 PM
Ok, some freshly made dive accelerations. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Dive angle ~45deg, full power with boost, 100% fuel.

Planes, Bf 109G-6 late, Spitfire MkIXc and Fw 190A-6.

Alt --- G-6 - IXc - A-6

5050 - 311 - 311 - 311
4500 - 521 - 517 - 517
4000 - 634 - 634 - 634
3500 - 718 - 720 - 720
3000 - 784 - 788 - 790
2500 - 837 - 843 - 852
2000 - 877 - 888 - 902
1500 - 910 - 923 - 944
1000 - 936 - 951 - 980
500 - 956 - N/A - 1009

BuzzU
05-06-2005, 01:56 PM
It would have been helpful to see which planes could pull out of the dive.

robban75
05-06-2005, 02:03 PM
The Fw 190 and Spit have good elevator authority, but I really don't think they could have made a safe pull out. The 109 would have crashed even if I started the pull out at 2000m. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

SlickStick
05-06-2005, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
Ok, some freshly made dive accelerations. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Dive angle ~45deg, full power with boost, 100% fuel.

Planes, Bf 109G-6 late, Spitfire MkIXc and Fw 190A-6.

Alt --- G-6 - IXc - A-6

5050 - 311 - 311 - 311
4500 - 521 - 517 - 517
4000 - 634 - 634 - 634
3500 - 718 - 720 - 720
3000 - 784 - 788 - 790
2500 - 837 - 843 - 852
2000 - 877 - 888 - 902
1500 - 910 - 923 - 944
1000 - 936 - 951 - 980
500 - 956 - N/A - 1009

Hmmm, I haven't dove in a Mk. IXc lately, but you are telling me that the IXc can dive up to 950km/h and still be in one piece?!?!

Methinks it's time to rethink my current Mk. VIII ride or at least truly test it's dive ability as well. I didn't think any Spitfire could dive to that speed and still be flyable. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

carguy_
05-06-2005, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
109s have much better elevator high speed then the spitties yak lagg mig etc.

You imagine things pretty easy.

zunzun
05-06-2005, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Hetzer_II:
no, no...

i was quiet behind Kwiatos on warclouds this time... he began the climb with a much greater speed than the spit but the spit gets closer and closer with time... Kwiatos was shot by the spit on the upperpoint of his climb... he attacked the spit from above with a good speed advantage. and than gets into climb...

This behaviour is not much more than a bad joke... anty gravity pads are not fair ;-)

If you think that is a bad joke then imagine doing the same against a 109 with a p47. Doesn`t matter if you start the zoom climb with much higher speed, the 109 will catch you, shot you and finish the climb higher than you.
I think the problem is that planes can climb too well at low speed so really good climber like 109 or spit can negate easily height advantage to not as good climber as jug or 190.
Not data to suport that just my own experience though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

robban75
05-06-2005, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robban75:
About the acceleration comparison, should I use auto prop pitch or 100% prop pitch. I'll refrase that, should I use auto pp or 100% pp when testing the Fw 190 period? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Do you even have to ask me that question Robban? You know what I'll say, "both please!"
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here you go Faust! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Planes performance this order.

Fw 190A-6 auto pp, Fw 190A-6 man 100% pp, Spitfire MkIXc

250 - ST - ST - ST
300 - 5 -- 6 -- 4
350 - 12 - 12 - 10
370 - 15 - 15 - 13
400 - 20 - 19 - 17
420 - 23 - 23 - 21
450 - 30 - 29 - 28
470 - 36 - 34 - 34
500 - 46 - 43 - 47
520 - 55 - 51 - 1:02
550 - 1:18 - 1:09 - N/A
560 - 1:30 - 1:18 - N/A
570 - 1:50 - 1:33 - N/A
580 - 2:49 - 1:59 - N/A
586 - N/A - 2:34 - N/A

robban75
05-06-2005, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
Hmmm, I haven't dove in a Mk. IXc lately, but you are telling me that the IXc can dive up to 950km/h and still be in one piece?!?!



I forgot to write that the speeds are TAS not IAS. The Spit lost one of the elevators at 880km/h IAS. To be honest, that's the highest dive speed I've ever managed to reach in a Spit MkIX.

faustnik
05-06-2005, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by robban75:


Here you go Faust! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Planes performance this order.

Fw 190A-6 auto pp, Fw 190A-6 man 100% pp, Spitfire MkIXc

250 - ST - ST - ST
300 - 5 -- 6 -- 4
350 - 12 - 12 - 10
370 - 15 - 15 - 13
400 - 20 - 19 - 17
420 - 23 - 23 - 21
450 - 30 - 29 - 28
470 - 36 - 34 - 34
500 - 46 - 43 - 47
520 - 55 - 51 - 1:02
550 - 1:18 - 1:09 - N/A
560 - 1:30 - 1:18 - N/A
570 - 1:50 - 1:33 - N/A
580 - 2:49 - 1:59 - N/A
586 - N/A - 2:34 - N/A

Thanks Robban, not good.

Can you post those in the FW190 Consortium when you get a chance. We need to start a Robban's tests sticky.

robban75
05-06-2005, 03:24 PM
You're welcome Faust. I just posted these tests in the Fw 190 consortium. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Jetbuff
05-06-2005, 03:35 PM
Robban, what are those numbers exactly? I'm guessing you are quoting time to climb a certain increment of altitude at various TASs. Is this correct? And if so, what's the increment?

OldMan____
05-06-2005, 03:54 PM
Sometimes I think the only fair maneuver againsta Spitfire is a RAM.

robban75
05-06-2005, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Robban, what are those numbers exactly? I'm guessing you are quoting time to climb a certain increment of altitude at various TASs. Is this correct? And if so, what's the increment?

Well, in the level acceleration test I use a timer to find out how long time it takes to accelerate to certain speeds. In the dive acceleration tests I just read the speed for every 500m. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

hop2002
05-06-2005, 03:57 PM
Fw 190A-6 auto pp, Fw 190A-6 man 100% pp, Spitfire MkIXc

250 - ST - ST - ST
300 - 5 -- 6 -- 4
350 - 12 - 12 - 10
370 - 15 - 15 - 13
400 - 20 - 19 - 17
420 - 23 - 23 - 21
450 - 30 - 29 - 28
470 - 36 - 34 - 34
500 - 46 - 43 - 47
520 - 55 - 51 - 1:02
550 - 1:18 - 1:09 - N/A
560 - 1:30 - 1:18 - N/A
570 - 1:50 - 1:33 - N/A
580 - 2:49 - 1:59 - N/A
586 - N/A - 2:34 - N/A


I presume these are time taken to reach a particular speed (left hand column), starting from 250 km/h?

Again guessing, the altitude was sea level (judging by the Spit failing to reach 550 km/h).

Faustnik, why do you say the results are "not good"?

faustnik
05-06-2005, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by hop2002:

Faustnik, why do you say the results are "not good"?

Because the Spitfire should not have an acceleration advantage over the Fw190 according to RAF testing.

robban75
05-06-2005, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by hop2002:
I presume these are time taken to reach a particular speed (left hand column), starting from 250 km/h?

Again guessing, the altitude was sea level (judging by the Spit failing to reach 550 km/h).



Correct, my bad for not posting the whole procedure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LuckyBoy1
05-06-2005, 04:08 PM
Ok, this Dude comes up with a couple of links to sites that rabbit pretty much the same information without disclosing the source of the data. As a result, I can't take any of it seriously.

hop2002
05-06-2005, 04:19 PM
Because the Spitfire should not have an acceleration advantage over the Fw190 according to RAF testing.

The only comparison I know of is Faber's 190 against the Spit F IX.

The Spit LF IX, as used in the game, had about 1,000 ft/min better climb rate, and climb rate is directly proportional to acceleration (at climb speed, the better climbing plane will accelerate faster. At high speeds, the faster plane will accelerate better. The crossover between them (if any) depends on the extent of the speed/climb advantages)

The LF IX should outaccelerate practically any (if not all) 190s at low speeds, lose out at higher speeds at altitudes where the 190 is faster.

faustnik
05-06-2005, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by hop2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Because the Spitfire should not have an acceleration advantage over the Fw190 according to RAF testing.

The only comparison I know of is Faber's 190 against the Spit F IX.

The Spit LF IX, as used in the game, had about 1,000 ft/min better climb rate, and climb rate is directly proportional to acceleration (at climb speed, the better climbing plane will accelerate faster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Fw190A6 in sim runs at much higher power ratings than the Fw190A3 tested by the RAF.

robban75
05-06-2005, 04:27 PM
What Fw 190 was used when it was compared to the MkXIV? Not Fabers was it? And was it equipped with C3 boost?

p1ngu666
05-06-2005, 04:47 PM
looking at the test in my spitfire book http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

unknow 190, doesnt state type

0-5000ft, and 15000ft to 20000ft XIV is only 20mph faster- all other heights, upto 60mph faster

maxium climb is considerabley greater than 190 and estimated of 190 with db engine

dive
190 has intial (small) advantage, after which
spitfire has slight advantage

turning circle
XIV can easly turn inside 190, less so on right hand turn.

roll
190 is very much better

conclusion
in defense, XIV should use its remarkable maxi,ium climb and turning circle against any enemy aircraft. in the attack it can afford to mix it, but should be beware of quick roll and dive. if this manoeuver is used by a 190 and XIV follows, it will probably not be able to close the range until 190 has pulled out of its dive.

ive not typed exactly word for word, but its right, baring typo's

p1ngu666
05-06-2005, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by JaBo_HH-BlackSheep:
that's true the FW is unable to seperate from the IX and VIII spits in a dive nor climb.

you is wrong http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
in dive, 190 will get away eventully http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

in climb, spitfire will seperate the 190 with its cannons http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

with IX and VIII, and LF spits probably, u should keep the fight a climbing one if possible, and at slow-medium speeds. 190 should keep fast, and ironicaly horizontal and levelish. teamwork with 190 is very important. specialy if u are not very good in 190, like i am http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Buzzsaw-
05-06-2005, 05:03 PM
Salute

Faber's 190A3 was not the only 190 tested in comparison to British aircraft. It was only used for test comparisons in the early tests versus the Spit V and Spit IXF. After that it was replaced by captured 190A4's and 190A5's.

Among several, including these aircraft:

190A4

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/peter/pe882map-02.jpg

190A5

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/captured/pn999%20raf%20markings.jpg

p1ngu666
05-06-2005, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
all spitfires are not that bad opponents, 109s can outroll them highspeed, keep higher speed much longer, 109s have much better stall characteristics, 109s have much better elevator high speed then the spitties yak lagg mig etc.

Problem with the spitfire is when it should have no energy it can climb only 50m higher then a 109 with no E thats it, more then enough range for 20mm to explode it in one burst.

right now thats the only advantage the spit has over the 109 which is not correct. Still the spit still gets slaughtered online.

I would like to see the floating 50kmph stall of the 109s changed but give them thier climb advantage. And make 20mm somewhat difficult to aim and losse rudder like the real ac had.

Right now the 109s huge advantage is its floating, its top dog fighting weapon 108 cannon which is second best dogfighting weapon in the game, first is shvak. The 109s huge advantage is in a 790kmph in dive trottle back to 120kmph in seconds then ram throttle forward and be at 560kmph in seconds, no other plane can do this and why it does so well online, also its overev exploit which is still used.

Hopefully the patch will work on alot of these issues.

leadspitter means very high speed, i think hes right, the 109 has fairly good elivator when u start to pull, then it goes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

and spit might have the flat climb thing that some found, robban i think, where planes climb at best or near best over a big speed range http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

faustnik
05-06-2005, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

Faber's 190A3 was not the only 190 tested in comparison to British aircraft. It was only used for test comparisons in the early tests versus the Spit V and Spit IXF. After that it was replaced by captured 190A4's and 190A5's.


What is your source for that Buzz? I mean I know they tested the A4 and A5, just not sure when and where.

The A4 would test similar to the A3 anyway.

BTW, nice pictures. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

hop2002
05-06-2005, 05:16 PM
No idea what 190 was compared to the XIV. Did they comment on the relative acceleration? And give speeds?


The Fw190A6 in sim runs at much higher power ratings than the Fw190A3 tested by the RAF.

Certainly. But that doesn't mean that because both planes had more power, the result stands.

The Spit LF IX will outclimb the 190 A6, which means at climb speeds at least the Spitfire will be faster, and for some speeds after that.

I don't have definate figures for the A5/A6 climb rate at 1.42ata, but the A8 gained about 2.8 m/s going from 1.32 ata to 1.42 ata at sea level.

I've got an FW chart for the A5 at 1.32ata, so applying the same figure to that gives a climb rate at sea level of 17.8 m/s at 1.42ata (3500 ft/min)

At 1.65 ata, using the same method from the A8 chart, the climb rate of the A5 should be about 18.8 m/s (3700 ft/min)

Speed, again from FW charts, should be 568 km/h at 1.42 ata, 590 km/h at 1.65 ata (deduced from the A8 chart again)

I've just done a quick graph (can't post it now), it shows the cross over point should be something over 400 km/h, below that the Spit should accelerate better, above it the 190.

Looking at Robban's figures, the Spit is clearly superior at lower speeds, but does seem to lose it's advantage at that sort of speed, and beats the Spit at higher speeds (taking the average of the 2 190 figures, the Spit has a 2 sec lead at 350, 2.5 secs at 400, 2 at 420, 1.5 at 450, 1 at 470, and is slower to 500 km/h)

In fact, looking at my graph I'd expect the Spit to hold on to it's accumulated lead longer than it does in Robban's test, with the 190s and Spit getting to about 520 km/h at the same time, compared to the 9 sec advantage the 190s have.

hop2002
05-06-2005, 05:20 PM
I'm fairly sure Faber's 190 was scrapped some time before the Spit XIV tests were carried out.

VW-IceFire
05-06-2005, 05:31 PM
I'm definately in agreement that there are problems with the Spitfire in modeling. Problems that make my unhappy when I fly it because I'm not getting the proper experience that I should be. I should be using the tactics that RAF Spitfires needed to survive and win...not some hidden potential.

According to RAF records, a Spitfire IX should outpace a FW190A (probably the A-3 that they tested against) at all heights. Thats WHY the LF variant exists...to achieve best possible speeds over the FW190 at all altitudes. Its also my impression from what I've read that the IX was a better climber than the FW190...while the Mark V was not anywhere near capable.

Again, Pierre Clostermans The Big Show provides some insight here. I suspect he had alot of respect for the FW190...as they always described them with their brightly painted noses and big black crosses. He always described that the Spitfires would climb...climb hard...hanging on their props (his words) to get up to where the FW190s were. Presumably because the FW190s almost always appeared above them and because the Spitfires advantages were fighting at co-altitude against the 190.

He also described getting very annoyed and chased one down to the deck and eventually shot it down. So diving is not an automatic escape card. They more often then not escaped by rolling away and diving because they had no fuel left to get into a more involved fight at lower altitudes. Thats the rationale that I read into.

That all said, our Spitfire has some odd things with cooling. It appears to overheat only at higher altitudes. It appears to be able to hold onto energy far too easily...even in hard turns that should have otherwise bled the energy away from other types of fighters.

I'd like to see a comparative study of 109 (G-2, G-6, and K-4) against Spitfire (V, IX, VIII) against Yak (3 and 9) and then match it with the FW190 and say the Corsair or the Thunderbolt. Acceleration vs alt, cooling vs alt, climb/dive, etc. I'm willing to partake in the testing if others are.

faustnik
05-06-2005, 05:32 PM
-climb rate is directly proportional to acceleration-

Hop in the RAF tests with Faber's A3 the Spit IX was slightly superior in climb but, inferior in acceleration.

faustnik
05-06-2005, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I'm definately in agreement that there are problems with the Spitfire in modeling. Problems that make my unhappy when I fly it because I'm not getting the proper experience that I should be. I should be using the tactics that RAF Spitfires needed to survive and win...not some hidden potential.

That being said, there are some tactics that the Spit should use, like low speed turn, that do not work very well against 109s in PF.

robban75
05-06-2005, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by hop2002:
No idea what 190 was compared to the XIV. Did they comment on the relative acceleration? And give speeds?

What Pingu wrote, 0-5000ft, and 15000ft to 20000ft XIV is only 20mph faster- all other heights, up to 60mph faster.

Couldn't have been an 1.65 ata Fw 190 that's for sure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif





In fact, looking at my graph I'd expect the Spit to hold on to it's accumulated lead longer than it does in Robban's test, with the 190s and Spit getting to about 520 km/h at the same time, compared to the 9 sec advantage the 190s have.

The A-6 is about 40+km/h faster than the IX at SL. The Spitfire IX pretty much keeps a steady acceleration all the way up to around 470km/h, after that acceleration rapidly decreases. The Fw 190 gradually accelerates slower and slower till it meets its absolute topspeed. I could be wrong but that behavior seem more realistic. Drag increases gradually, instead of getting the effect of hitting a drag wall all of a sudden.
A perfect example of such behavior is the La-7. It will accelerate like a rocket all the way up 600km/h, and then suddenly, poof, acceleration slows down fast. I like to compare the La-7 to the D-9 as they both have the same top speed. The D-9 starts to slow down quite a bit earlier than the La-7, although it will eventually reach the same top speed as the La. The La-7 refuses to be affected by drag and reaches its top speed a whole minute faster than the D-9.


Wow, look at me blabbering away. Please feel free to disagree with me. It's almost 2 am here, I'm really tired. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I probably wont remember half of this in the morning.

p1ngu666
05-06-2005, 06:01 PM
well, spit XIV does 363mph 584.191872 kph SL on the test in this book

ingame A8 does 580 according to il2 compair

readin this makes me wish for hornet...

12000ft, 388mph in spit XIV, think i read hornet did 460mph at 12,000ft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

hop2002
05-06-2005, 06:01 PM
Hop in the RAF tests with Faber's A3 the Spit IX was slightly superior in climb but, inferior in acceleration.

The report notes the 190 accelerates faster "except at those altitudes where the Spitfire has a speed advantage" (paraphrasing)

In other words, the 190 accelerates faster when it's faster. With climb rate being similar (and the AFDU report gives both planes similar climb rates) then the faster plane wins in acceleration.

Unfourtunately they don't give figures for speed, climb rate, altitudes etc, just rough impressions, so it's hard to split two planes that they found pretty similar overall.

The fact remains that acceleration and climb are directly related. The plane that climbs better at a particular speed will also accelerate better, at that speed.

For both acceleration and climb, the only important net parameters are force and mass. The mass remains the same in climb or level flight, the net forces remain the same as well.

Climb/acceleration are functions of excess thrust. The more you have, the faster you can climb/accelerate. It's as simple as that.

(it gets complex of course because excess thrust is different at different speeds, and doesn't change at the same rate for different aircraft. That's why the faster aircraft does better as the speed increases. At 336 mph at sea level the Spit IX has 0 excess thrust, the P-51 still has quite a bit, so at that speed the Mustang has a much better climb rate than the Spit)

VW-IceFire
05-06-2005, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I'm definately in agreement that there are problems with the Spitfire in modeling. Problems that make my unhappy when I fly it because I'm not getting the proper experience that I should be. I should be using the tactics that RAF Spitfires needed to survive and win...not some hidden potential.

That being said, there are some tactics that the Spit should use, like low speed turn, that do not work very well against 109s in PF. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Although some 109s turned better at low speeds than the Spitfire apparently...but somethings definately off there too. I think the Mark V and the 109F matchup is probably the most enjoyable and realistic...its very close either way...depending on pilots mostly.

Its the energy retention of a few planes that bothers me...it seems quite quite good. I know they should be good but I think its out of proportion. I hear good things about 4.0 and I HOPE that we solve some of these issues.

Because I really want to enjoy the Spitfire...and I also want to see it used properly by pilots or suffer the consequences.

faustnik
05-06-2005, 09:34 PM
The fact remains that acceleration and climb are directly related. The plane that climbs better at a particular speed will also accelerate better, at that speed.

It makes sense that they are related Hop, but, there might be other factors the alter the situation. Obviously, the situation is not as simple as you are trying to make it. Your assertion that "LF IX should outaccelerate practically any (if not all) 190s at low speeds" is not born out by the real world comparisons.

WWMaxGunz
05-07-2005, 01:15 AM
If you and BnZ a target, come bombing down at very high speed and pitch up to level losing
speed, make your pass with perhaps 80 kph higher speed than the target and then another hard
pitch up which loses more E going into your very steep climb away then you should note that;

You are flying in such a way that by distances and angles the target can cut corners and
use less hard pitch changes to catch up to you.

If that is you then don't complain and don't feel the need to seek some error, it is yours.
We've been down this one before many times. Get tracks and run em through devicelink if
need be, impressions count for little.

Buzzsaw-
05-07-2005, 01:28 AM
Salute

Zoom climb of all aircraft may be affected by new inertia physics which we hear is going to be included in patch. If inertia is more realistically modelled, then we may see lighter aircraft zooming less well, and aircraft with weight behind their speed, zooming better.

tigertalon
05-07-2005, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Still the spit still gets slaughtered online.


Hi Lead

Online I am a dedicated fw rider, nevertheless, from time to time I jump into a spit just to get to know my main opponent better. If I take such a great care when I am flying it as when I am flying Fw190, I can get MUCH better results. Average experience that pilots with spit and with Fw have, differs very much. Ones who can already get 3 kills in spit cannot even take of in Fw190, seen it with my eyes!

hop2002
05-07-2005, 06:08 AM
Your assertion that "LF IX should outaccelerate practically any (if not all) 190s at low speeds" is not born out by the real world comparisons.

What real world comparisons?

NorrisMcWhirter
05-07-2005, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Still the spit still gets slaughtered online.


Hi Lead

Online I am a dedicated fw rider, nevertheless, from time to time I jump into a spit just to get to know my main opponent better. If I take such a great care when I am flying it as when I am flying Fw190, I can get MUCH better results. Average experience that pilots with spit and with Fw have, differs very much. Ones who can already get 3 kills in spit cannot even take of in Fw190, seen it with my eyes! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


^ Seen this many times myself, TT. In fact, one Spitfire advocate that I know was once spouting about how uber the FW190 was and how it must be overmodelled. I suggested they took a flight in it and, after managing to take off on the second attempt, they flew around for a bit, moaned that it was slow, heavy and didn't turn well...then proclaimed it was cr*p.

Cheers,
Norris

JG53Frankyboy
05-07-2005, 06:33 AM
is here anybody sure about the perfromance differences the late Spitfires have in the game?

my belivings so far were:
'Spitfire IXc' ,'Spitfire IXe' ,'Spitfire LF.IXc CW' & 'Spitfire LF.IXe CW' have same performance.
the CWs are just a little bit faster because of lower drag.
'Spitfire Mk.VIII' & 'Mk.VIII CW' are slower than the IX series.

any conformation ore am i totaly wrong ?

p1ngu666
05-07-2005, 06:40 AM
VIII is better all round now i think, as it should be http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
but yes, slight performance differences really

OldMan____
05-07-2005, 06:45 AM
lets just hope 4.0 improves E bleeding. I get very sad when I bounce a spit that is flying at 400 kph and I am at 600 .. on OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS!!!! and he just make 180 turn.. climb.. and catch me at top of hill!!!! Last time I saw one doing this I just gut off engine putlled gears out and ejected... in fact stopping in front of him... want my plane? So eat it. Was kind funny since tha spit satlled to avoid crashing on my falling plane and he got in to a flat spin.

Fish6891
05-07-2005, 06:58 AM
Spit morsels.....MMMMMmmmmm

LBHF15
05-07-2005, 07:38 AM
Like Oldman, Ive seen spitfire's with an altitude disadvantage merge 180 degrees out, turn up their own *ss and run me down, while I merely blow through the merge at max speed(no turning)if full WEP in the P-47. Makes me laugh, really. E bleed and structural load factors need a serious overhaul in this sim. Spitfire seems to be the one aircraft able to do these physics defying acts (with some of the La series a close second). I hope 4.0 fixes it. Still love the Sim. Just gotta laugh at some of its querks.

GonzoX
05-07-2005, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Kwiatos:
Probably these theme was talking many times but i write it one more time. As i read Spitfire until model MK XIV wasn't good in dive and zoom climb. They were much worse than Fw 190 even in dive were worse than Bf 109. But what happens in these game is big mistake. I know from many test and books that Spitfire was good in turnrate and in climb rate (expecially later models - MK IX) but for god sake not in dive and zoom climb. What could Spitfre expecialy MK IX in ZOOM CLIMB IS JUST BIG JOKE. I wonder why 1C and Oleg M. dont see these. I fly allside planes and my sqn 303 fly in red side but i dont want to fly such bad moddeling plane. I just want Spitfire to be normal plane not such ufo. All spitfire flyers are called noobs in spits , spitfire is called noobfire etc. Why Spitfire can't be normal plane not ufo??

This is all old news and common knowledge.

This is why Mr Oleg and his forum moderators will never accord you more than a sneering dismissal packed with winkies and smilies.

My guess is that they decided that at least one Uber Noob plane had to be in the game so that the kids could play online. Apparently the Spit is IT.

I will agree with the moderators on one point though. Give it up. You are preaching to the choir and the people who can do something about it have deaf ears on the subject. There are countless other posts asking for a fix.

Let's just hope that the new overhauled FM gives the FW190 a chance to have the documented FM that the actual plane had. Im not holding my breath though as current FMs seem to be geared towards gameplay issues and politics rather than hard data.

Tvrdi
05-07-2005, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by GonzoX:

My guess is that they decided that at least one Uber Noob plane had to be in the game so that the kids could play online. Apparently the Spit is IT.

rather than hard data.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif you said the whole truth in one sentence......btw with such plane theyl invoke some of the FPS players http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (not usually sim fans)

HayateAce
05-07-2005, 08:20 AM
And here we see the Luftcry in action.

Second-rate players get worked in their Noob-O-Nines on Warbirds of Prey and they run to momma to sob on her apron.

Most of the current crop of Whine-O-nine drivers are completely void of any skill whatsoever. At one time, it truly took a good pilot to do well in the 109. Now they now nothing of how to handle an enemy a/c with better turning. Nope, you would rather jerk in circles holding down the trigger to your noob potato gun and pat your back after this brilliant display of Leet skillzors.

THIS is how we ended up with this current mess. So, by all means don't work on your skills, work on your sobbing.

http://www.carolynsandstrom.com/tears%207.jpg

HayateAce
05-07-2005, 08:29 AM
Oh yes,

As to crying about zoom, look no further than the FantasyBogus~109. You can have all altitude and speed advatage you want, and still time after time see FB~109 evade with A6M-type turn, then lift the nose, employ bogus climb, employ no-stall anti-gravity and fire the Easy-Hit, No-Aim Potato108 gun for an easy kill.

More demonstration of Leet Noob-09 skillzors.

Another fellow mentioned so on several pages ago, but it is gloss over by folks who don't want accuracy, they want win.

BuzzU
05-07-2005, 09:50 AM
Does anybody think the 109K climbs too fast? I don't hear the Luftwaffy complaining about this. They claim all they want is accurate FM's. Well?

Tvrdi
05-07-2005, 10:38 AM
being an il2 fan from 2001. flyin for both sides Im not an Luftwhiner nor any other whiner...if I think somethin is wrong i post that - regarding any plane...BuzzU, sure, if we compare K4 from the sim to the real data; K4 in the game climbs too good (but the data differencies are not so big RL vs sim)...but on the other hand K4 overheats too fast....its insane how fast it can overheat,(same with late F4U)....so many things must be corrected in the game,...but still its best ww2 simulator as you know already http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BuzzU
05-07-2005, 10:45 AM
Hopefully BOB will give us what we want.

MEGILE
05-07-2005, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by BuzzU:
Does anybody think the 109K climbs too fast? I don't hear the Luftwaffy complaining about this. They claim all they want is accurate FM's. Well?

Why would you want your plane nerfed in the pursuit of realism? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

robban75
05-07-2005, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by BuzzU:
Does anybody think the 109K climbs too fast? I don't hear the Luftwaffy complaining about this. They claim all they want is accurate FM's. Well?

Here you go Buzz! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Time to alt and m/sec.

Full fuel

1000 - :37 - 27.0
2000 - 1:12 - 28.6
3000 - 1:47 - 28.6
4000 - 2:23 - 27.8
5000 - 3:01 - 26.3
6000 - 3:45 - 22.7
7000 - 4:39 - 18.5

And here it is with 25% fuel

1000 - :34 - 29.4
2000 - 1:05 - 32.3
3000 - 1:37 - 31.3
4000 - 2:10 - 30.3
5000 - 2:43 - 30.3
6000 - 3:22 - 25.6
7000 - 4:10 - 20.8

NorrisMcWhirter
05-07-2005, 01:14 PM
Hayate - have the authorities tested the water supply in your area for aluminuium contamination?

Just a thought http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Norris

p1ngu666
05-07-2005, 01:15 PM
nice test robban http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

p1ngu666
05-07-2005, 01:20 PM
http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//spitvs109.jpg

robban got close to max out of k4 ingame, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

i dont have time to make up a graph with all teh results on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

p1ngu666
05-07-2005, 09:35 PM
wow dont belive i killed this one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif!

OldMan____
05-07-2005, 09:49 PM
Don´t know if K4 clmbs too well. If it does.. it should be corrected. But Spit does not even need tests.. just look some weird reversals you can do without E bleed. I never saw a 109 do that same kind of reversals... although I do not pay too much attention on them since I fly 190 when in blue side. You can anytime put yuor nose up.. by elevator or rudder.. an you will never stall.

HellToupee
05-08-2005, 12:16 AM
109 can do those moves to, u can come in for a high speed pass in a spit, the 109 goes zero throttle and turns full you overshoot and them zoom, 109 goes full throttle and points its nose at you with its super gun and bam, after they cut throttle to nothing do a full turn and they can still zoom yet no complaints.

Ifly spit 109 190 often and the 109 while cant turn as tight is as noob as any spit. The g2 is even easyer to fly than a spit.

JamesBlonde888
05-08-2005, 06:11 AM
lol... Is dump, is fat old cow.

p1ngu666
05-08-2005, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
Don´t know if K4 clmbs too well. If it does.. it should be corrected. But Spit does not even need tests.. just look some weird reversals you can do without E bleed. I never saw a 109 do that same kind of reversals... although I do not pay too much attention on them since I fly 190 when in blue side. You can anytime put yuor nose up.. by elevator or rudder.. an you will never stall.

oldman, me and ice will probably do some testing later today, your welcome to join us http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
p1ngu666 on HL, im on there alot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

OldMan____
05-08-2005, 08:16 AM
what hours? I won't have much time available today sine I have to finish my master's thesys.. but I can amek 1 hour or so.

Skalgrim
05-08-2005, 08:58 AM
k4 with db605dc has 40% better powerload as g2 at sealevel

g2 with 1300ps has 21m/sec initialclimb

that means k4 climb 40% better at sealevel as g2, with same wing is climb proportionally depent from the powerload.



30m/sec initialclimb with 100% fuel are at least theoretical possible, and flightsim is only theoretical.

and keep in the mind, almost all plane are overmodel at climb, only 190 seem right at climb.

or look at the p39, that had much better rollrate as real etc, perhaps the next patch fix it.

Kurfurst__
05-08-2005, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by hop2002:
The Spit LF IX, as used in the game, had about 1,000 ft/min better climb rate, and climb rate is directly proportional to acceleration .

Climb rate has nothing to do with level acceleration. Acceleration is dependent on thrust/weight/drag ratio.
I even have British notes for Spit pilots that call up their attention to the 'poor accleration' of the Spitfire. It`s not surprising, as the Spitfire had a lot of drag with those large wings. But drag is not that important in climbs.


The LF IX should outaccelerate practically any (if not all) 190s at low speeds, lose out at higher speeds at altitudes where the 190 is faster.

That`s only your hypothesis/fiction/wishful thinking. But every single dive test I have seen shows the Spitfire is outdived by practically any other RAF, USAAF or LW type. You are the only one who says otherwise.

hop2002
05-08-2005, 11:48 AM
Climb rate has nothing to do with level acceleration. Acceleration is dependent on thrust/weight/drag ratio.

What on earth do you think determines climb rate?

Please don't say lift...


I even have British notes for Spit pilots that call up their attention to the 'poor accleration' of the Spitfire. It`s not surprising, as the Spitfire had a lot of drag with those large wings. But drag is not that important in climbs.


Drag is as important in climbs as it is in low speed acceleration.

It's far more important in high speed acceleration.

Acceleration and climb are both dependent on excess thrust.. In fact, they're both almost entirely dependent on excess thrust and weight.

When you break it down, those are the only 2 important parameters.


That`s only your hypothesis/fiction/wishful thinking. But every single dive test I have seen

Where do I mention dive at all?

I talk about level acceleration, you counter with something about dive?

jugent
05-08-2005, 02:06 PM
Dont make the mistake to think that this game should be as it was during WWII.

The chart shown doesnt match the reality of the game IMO.

According to the chart made for AEP a certain plane was supposed to outcurve another plane, but after trying this 10 times and got shoot down 10 times, I deleted the file from my harddrive.

I banter a bit but this make many writers to answer.

The biggest market is USA and most gamebuyers dont want to experience that a Zero or FW is as good or better, than the Mustang, P40 P47 etc etc. The Spit was a fabulous plane so it belongs to the "John Wayne" family of planes. You know its equipped with hero ammo, the one that always hits. Hollywood-heroes have this ammo. The badguy ammo moves dirt around the heroes feet, hirt it a bit, but not so much that it loose.
The doom-raised player want to do things they have seen in patriotic movies like Pearl Harbour and other second grade movies.
They wont buy a game where this is impossible.
Some gamebuyers like me want a balanced unbiased game.
IMO the best game regarding bias and balance is AH but the graphics and "eye-candy" is best in UBI-softs products, so I fly both games but prefear UBI-soft, and accept that LW-planes dont reach the standard I assume they must have had.

OldMan____
05-08-2005, 06:28 PM
Today Me, IceFire and Pingu made some online tests whith several planes.. sie by side. Testes acceleration, top speed low, high, climb to 6k meters, zoom from 400 kph, zoom from max speed, dive (without desintagrating), tunr a t slow speed, at medium speed etc...

We made some tracks.. we found some very usefull info. Some if teste we will probably do again to check but finnaly some proofs of some suspect behaviors.

ElAurens
05-08-2005, 10:22 PM
I readily admit that I do not have deep knowledge of the performance figures of the real aircraft in question. However, I do fly online a lot and these are my observations.

The Spitfire (any mark) cannot catch a 109/190 of similar time frame in level flight, regardless of altitude. Unless the Spit has a very large E advantage (altitude) it cannot out dive or zoom climb any of it's Germanic opponents. It cannot out roll any of it's adversarys. It's steady state climb is no where near as good as the 109. Any advantage it has in the turn can be overcome in a 109 by simply using the 109's totally unrealistic deceleration and forcing the Spit to over shoot. (Same goes for catching a 109 in the dive.)

The Spit is well armed, but the German planes are equally well armed. No advantage to either side here.

In short, the German birds are probably the best aircraft in the game. True they take skill and patience to fly, but once mastered they are the owners of the sky.

I'm just saying.

Gwalker70
05-08-2005, 11:57 PM
I swear on my mother.. you can tell in no icon servers.. if you are way up looking down at some dots fighting.. you can tell which ones are the Spits.. they go back and forth.. back and forth back and forth like a firefly in the forest

OldMan____
05-09-2005, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
I readily admit that I do not have deep knowledge of the performance figures of the real aircraft in question. However, I do fly online a lot and these are my observations.

The Spitfire (any mark) cannot catch a 109/190 of similar time frame in level flight, regardless of altitude. Unless the Spit has a very large E advantage (altitude) it cannot out dive or zoom climb any of it's Germanic opponents. It cannot out roll any of it's adversarys. It's steady state climb is no where near as good as the 109. Any advantage it has in the turn can be overcome in a 109 by simply using the 109's totally unrealistic deceleration and forcing the Spit to over shoot. (Same goes for catching a 109 in the dive.)

The Spit is well armed, but the German planes are equally well armed. No advantage to either side here.

In short, the German birds are probably the best aircraft in the game. True they take skill and patience to fly, but once mastered they are the owners of the sky.

I'm just saying.

they should LOOSe in dive and zoom, but they WIN in zoom from reasonable speeds (we tested) and they keep together in dive until cery late .

geetarman
05-09-2005, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by jugent:
Dont make the mistake to think that this game should be as it was during WWII.

The chart shown doesnt match the reality of the game IMO.

According to the chart made for AEP a certain plane was supposed to outcurve another plane, but after trying this 10 times and got shoot down 10 times, I deleted the file from my harddrive.

I banter a bit but this make many writers to answer.

The biggest market is USA and most gamebuyers dont want to experience that a Zero or FW is as good or better, than the Mustang, P40 P47 etc etc. The Spit was a fabulous plane so it belongs to the "John Wayne" family of planes. You know its equipped with hero ammo, the one that always hits. Hollywood-heroes have this ammo. The badguy ammo moves dirt around the heroes feet, hirt it a bit, but not so much that it loose.
The doom-raised player want to do things they have seen in patriotic movies like Pearl Harbour and other second grade movies.
They wont buy a game where this is impossible.
Some gamebuyers like me want a balanced unbiased game.
IMO the best game regarding bias and balance is AH but the graphics and "eye-candy" is best in UBI-softs products, so I fly both games but prefear UBI-soft, and accept that LW-planes dont reach the standard I assume they must have had.

------------------------------------------------

This is one of the dumbest, most idiotic posts I've read in long awhile here. Jugent, you really believe that? I can see the board meetings at UBI. "Yup, to hell with a top-notch product the virtual pilots of the world can love. Just give the Yankees their Mustang."

Jeesh, and they call Americans ignorant.

BuzzU
05-09-2005, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by jugent:
Dont make the mistake to think that this game should be as it was during WWII.

The chart shown doesnt match the reality of the game IMO.

According to the chart made for AEP a certain plane was supposed to outcurve another plane, but after trying this 10 times and got shoot down 10 times, I deleted the file from my harddrive.

I banter a bit but this make many writers to answer.

The biggest market is USA and most gamebuyers dont want to experience that a Zero or FW is as good or better, than the Mustang, P40 P47 etc etc. The Spit was a fabulous plane so it belongs to the "John Wayne" family of planes. You know its equipped with hero ammo, the one that always hits. Hollywood-heroes have this ammo. The badguy ammo moves dirt around the heroes feet, hirt it a bit, but not so much that it loose.
The doom-raised player want to do things they have seen in patriotic movies like Pearl Harbour and other second grade movies.
They wont buy a game where this is impossible.
Some gamebuyers like me want a balanced unbiased game.
IMO the best game regarding bias and balance is AH but the graphics and "eye-candy" is best in UBI-softs products, so I fly both games but prefear UBI-soft, and accept that LW-planes dont reach the standard I assume they must have had.

Stupid post of the year.

p1ngu666
05-09-2005, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
Today Me, IceFire and Pingu made some online tests whith several planes.. sie by side. Testes acceleration, top speed low, high, climb to 6k meters, zoom from 400 kph, zoom from max speed, dive (without desintagrating), tunr a t slow speed, at medium speed etc...

We made some tracks.. we found some very usefull info. Some if teste we will probably do again to check but finnaly some proofs of some suspect behaviors.

yep from the tests we did, imo 190 was the worst plane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

HellToupee
05-09-2005, 03:44 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ElAurens:
The Spitfire (any mark) cannot catch a 109/190 of similar time frame in level flight, regardless of altitude. Unless the Spit has a very large E advantage (altitude) it cannot out dive or zoom climb any of it's Germanic opponents. It cannot out roll any of it's adversarys. It's steady state climb is no where near as good as the 109. Any advantage it has in the turn can be overcome in a 109 by simply using the 109's totally unrealistic deceleration and forcing the Spit to over shoot. (Same goes for catching a 109 in the dive.)
[QUOTE]

Dunno if in game or rl ur speaking but the spitfire wasnt slower reguardless of altitude, High altitudes the spitfire generally had the advantage being faster and had a higher cealing than the 109s. It also outrolled the 109 unless ur talking fabric alerions and clippy outrolled 190 at very low speeds.

OldMan____
05-09-2005, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ElAurens:
The Spitfire (any mark) cannot catch a 109/190 of similar time frame in level flight, regardless of altitude. Unless the Spit has a very large E advantage (altitude) it cannot out dive or zoom climb any of it's Germanic opponents. It cannot out roll any of it's adversarys. It's steady state climb is no where near as good as the 109. Any advantage it has in the turn can be overcome in a 109 by simply using the 109's totally unrealistic deceleration and forcing the Spit to over shoot. (Same goes for catching a 109 in the dive.)
[QUOTE]

Dunno if in game or rl ur speaking but the spitfire wasnt slower reguardless of altitude, High altitudes the spitfire generally had the advantage being faster and had a higher cealing than the 109s. It also outrolled the 109 unless ur talking fabric alerions and clippy outrolled 190 at very low speeds.

yeap at very very slwo speeds.. when both are rolling out of control in stall.

ElAurens
05-09-2005, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ElAurens:
The Spitfire (any mark) cannot catch a 109/190 of similar time frame in level flight, regardless of altitude. Unless the Spit has a very large E advantage (altitude) it cannot out dive or zoom climb any of it's Germanic opponents. It cannot out roll any of it's adversarys. It's steady state climb is no where near as good as the 109. Any advantage it has in the turn can be overcome in a 109 by simply using the 109's totally unrealistic deceleration and forcing the Spit to over shoot. (Same goes for catching a 109 in the dive.)
[QUOTE]

Dunno if in game or rl ur speaking but the spitfire wasnt slower reguardless of altitude, High altitudes the spitfire generally had the advantage being faster and had a higher cealing than the 109s. It also outrolled the 109 unless ur talking fabric alerions and clippy outrolled 190 at very low speeds.

HellToupee, these are my observations made while flying online. And there is no way a Spit in game will out roll any German bird, at any speed or altitude, especially the fantasy roll rate of the FW 190.

VW-IceFire
05-09-2005, 10:20 PM
Just to chime in with what pingu, Oldman, and myself seemed to find.

TURN
The 109 and Spitfire were very similar (VIII vs G-6 Late). Similar turns, similar acceleration (109 seemed to be a bit better in some cases), while the FW190's chief proponent was speed. Although the FW190 accelerated slower...it definately was faster at sea level upto about 4000-5000...at which point Pingu and I had trouble keeping formation and were generally flying out infront. Infact, when we both maxed the throttle...we left Oldman behind...this was at higher altitudes...around 20,000 feet and better.

SPEED
The speeds seem fairly consistent with what we know. At 20,000 feet I saw my first overheat (in the test of course)...and I replicated overheats a few times at those altitudes...6000-7000m seem to be where the Spitfire heats up quite a bit. At low altitudes, I was able to run for a VERY long time without overheat...not sure why.

ROLL
Spitfire rolls slower than both the 190 and 109.

DIVE
FW190A-8 pulled out infront...starting at 6100m to near sea level the gap was widened between 0.25km to 1.5km. The FW190 was clearly superior in a dive...however...at the bottom...particularly in the zoom climb...the Spitfire caught it easily. Had we been fighting, I would have gunned him down easily. This is partially historically true...I've read similar stories...however...not all of it appears to be right (see conclusions).

ZOOM CLIMB
This is the odd part...the 109G-6 Late seemed to fall off the quickest...with the FW190 and Spitfire stalling about the same time. In-part due to Oldmans excellent skill in keeping the FW190 from stalling. We both reached about the same point after a high speed pullout (about 700-750kph). This I feel to be wrong...the Spitfire holds a bit too much E for its type of fighter in this position.

IDENTIFIED ISSUES WITH SPITFIRE FM
The basics like turn, roll, and speed are well modeled. The plane behaves quite properly in these respects being neither seriously over or undermodeled. But there are two issues:
1) Energy retention
2) Overheat modeling

Energy appears to be held for a bit too long...some Yak variants and the 109G-2 seem to also be guilty of this. They are stable at very low speeds (historically so) but this translates into some unusual behavior when flying at high AoA's. Nose pointing is the worst part. This is the probable source of the "UFO" behavior so often complained about.

Overheat is very odd. At low alts...its quite fine. At high alts, with 100% throttle and WEP on...it will overheat...fairly quickly. Similar to a 109. This needs further detailed testing but I noticed it quite a bit. This is true for the VIII/IX and not the V or Seafire III which appear quite different.

GR142_Astro
05-09-2005, 10:57 PM
I.F.

How do you make the claim that the Spit's energy retention is too great. What scientific/instrument data from RL aircraft vs what In-Game data are you using to make this claim?

Seems like more of a "feeling" to me.

Truly interested......

http://www.iris.dti.ne.jp/~telly/gallery03set/240z.jpg

ImpStarDuece
05-09-2005, 11:08 PM
IceFire, P1ngu and Oldman; would you be willing to repeat your flight testing when 4.0 is released? While I actually don't think that the difference will be massive I would be very interested what differences will creep in.

Also, are you going to write up your results in a seperate thread for everyone to see? My thoughts are that it will generate a lot of interest if you three wrote up how you see things from three seperate points of view and then put them all into one thread. We can look at this objectively and emperically as well as comparatively and come up with some good conclusion that way.

Oh, and if you need a P-47 driver for some dive and energy retention tests, I'll be more than willing to volunteer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hristos
05-10-2005, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:

... especially the fantasy roll rate of the FW 190.

This little tidbit just pulled this thread down the drain, IMHO.

p1ngu666
05-10-2005, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
IceFire, P1ngu and Oldman; would you be willing to repeat your flight testing when 4.0 is released? While I actually don't think that the difference will be massive I would be very interested what differences will creep in.

Also, are you going to write up your results in a seperate thread for everyone to see? My thoughts are that it will generate a lot of interest if you three wrote up how you see things from three seperate points of view and then put them all into one thread. We can look at this objectively and emperically as well as comparatively and come up with some good conclusion that way.

Oh, and if you need a P-47 driver for some dive and energy retention tests, I'll be more than willing to volunteer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

pm me on hl or here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

DarthBane_
05-10-2005, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by geetarman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
Dont make the mistake to think that this game should be as it was during WWII.

The chart shown doesnt match the reality of the game IMO.

According to the chart made for AEP a certain plane was supposed to outcurve another plane, but after trying this 10 times and got shoot down 10 times, I deleted the file from my harddrive.

I banter a bit but this make many writers to answer.

The biggest market is USA and most gamebuyers dont want to experience that a Zero or FW is as good or better, than the Mustang, P40 P47 etc etc. The Spit was a fabulous plane so it belongs to the "John Wayne" family of planes. You know its equipped with hero ammo, the one that always hits. Hollywood-heroes have this ammo. The badguy ammo moves dirt around the heroes feet, hirt it a bit, but not so much that it loose.
The doom-raised player want to do things they have seen in patriotic movies like Pearl Harbour and other second grade movies.
They wont buy a game where this is impossible.
Some gamebuyers like me want a balanced unbiased game.
IMO the best game regarding bias and balance is AH but the graphics and "eye-candy" is best in UBI-softs products, so I fly both games but prefear UBI-soft, and accept that LW-planes dont reach the standard I assume they must have had.

------------------------------------------------

This is one of the dumbest, most idiotic posts I've read in long awhile here. Jugent, you really believe that? I can see the board meetings at UBI. "Yup, to hell with a top-notch product the virtual pilots of the world can love. Just give the Yankees their Mustang."

Jeesh, and they call Americans ignorant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That post is the essence of problems inside this game, and yours is not only amero ignorant but also stupid and uninformed. Try flying blue and than red. Even americano should see that ****** can fly for red, but not blue side.
Performance of allied planes goes hand in hand with market and ability of children to use tham easily and eficiently. They saw on tv that americanos won, and they wonna win too. Who cares about E retention when money is in question? Judging by allied planes in this game 1c doesnt.

geetarman
05-10-2005, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by DarthBane_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by geetarman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
Dont make the mistake to think that this game should be as it was during WWII.

The chart shown doesnt match the reality of the game IMO.

According to the chart made for AEP a certain plane was supposed to outcurve another plane, but after trying this 10 times and got shoot down 10 times, I deleted the file from my harddrive.

I banter a bit but this make many writers to answer.

The biggest market is USA and most gamebuyers dont want to experience that a Zero or FW is as good or better, than the Mustang, P40 P47 etc etc. The Spit was a fabulous plane so it belongs to the "John Wayne" family of planes. You know its equipped with hero ammo, the one that always hits. Hollywood-heroes have this ammo. The badguy ammo moves dirt around the heroes feet, hirt it a bit, but not so much that it loose.
The doom-raised player want to do things they have seen in patriotic movies like Pearl Harbour and other second grade movies.
They wont buy a game where this is impossible.
Some gamebuyers like me want a balanced unbiased game.
IMO the best game regarding bias and balance is AH but the graphics and "eye-candy" is best in UBI-softs products, so I fly both games but prefear UBI-soft, and accept that LW-planes dont reach the standard I assume they must have had.

------------------------------------------------

This is one of the dumbest, most idiotic posts I've read in long awhile here. Jugent, you really believe that? I can see the board meetings at UBI. "Yup, to hell with a top-notch product the virtual pilots of the world can love. Just give the Yankees their Mustang."

Jeesh, and they call Americans ignorant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That post is the essence of problems inside this game, and yours is not only amero ignorant but also stupid and uninformed. Try flying blue and than red. Even americano should see that ****** can fly for red, but not blue side.
Performance of allied planes goes hand in hand with market and ability of children to use tham easily and eficiently. They saw on tv that americanos won, and they wonna win too. Who cares about E retention when money is in question? Judging by allied planes in this game 1c doesnt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------------------------------------

Darthbane - you must be drinking the same funny tasting Kool-Aid that Jugent is.

VW-IceFire
05-10-2005, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
I.F.

How do you make the claim that the Spit's energy retention is too great. What scientific/instrument data from RL aircraft vs what In-Game data are you using to make this claim?

Seems like more of a "feeling" to me.

Truly interested......

http://www.iris.dti.ne.jp/~telly/gallery03set/240z.jpg
Its totally a feeling. I'm relating my feelings of the test to you folks. If I wanted to be scientific then I'd present numbers...since I'm not much of a math or stats guy I'm not terribly good in cooking ways up to relate things in true fashion. However, most people use their feelings to understand FM models and thats not all wrong. Even Oleg uses some pilot accounts to build the "feel" of an aircraft...one that can't always be captured strictly with mathematics. Its not a true way to represent things here but its a half way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In any case, I'm relating mostly of a "what happened" nature. Its been long said that the Spitfire retains energy in manuevers...it appears to be true. The FW190 is supposedly the beter zoom climber (according to what we've read) but I caught him at the bottom of the dive and outzoomed him. I'm pretty sure thats not right but I leave that for the rest of the people in the know to decide.

I think Pingu, Oldman, and myself approached this more like what would "normally" happen in a dogfight scenario. We didn't do some tests in a very specific fashion because we wanted them to be more off the cuff like how most pilots fly these planes. Some other folks like Robban have done some great tests on their own with a different approach...one that I appreciate as well. Its an overall approach that we have to take to confront these issues.

BuzzU
05-10-2005, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by geetarman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarthBane_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by geetarman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jugent:
Dont make the mistake to think that this game should be as it was during WWII.

The chart shown doesnt match the reality of the game IMO.

According to the chart made for AEP a certain plane was supposed to outcurve another plane, but after trying this 10 times and got shoot down 10 times, I deleted the file from my harddrive.

I banter a bit but this make many writers to answer.

The biggest market is USA and most gamebuyers dont want to experience that a Zero or FW is as good or better, than the Mustang, P40 P47 etc etc. The Spit was a fabulous plane so it belongs to the "John Wayne" family of planes. You know its equipped with hero ammo, the one that always hits. Hollywood-heroes have this ammo. The badguy ammo moves dirt around the heroes feet, hirt it a bit, but not so much that it loose.
The doom-raised player want to do things they have seen in patriotic movies like Pearl Harbour and other second grade movies.
They wont buy a game where this is impossible.
Some gamebuyers like me want a balanced unbiased game.
IMO the best game regarding bias and balance is AH but the graphics and "eye-candy" is best in UBI-softs products, so I fly both games but prefear UBI-soft, and accept that LW-planes dont reach the standard I assume they must have had.

------------------------------------------------

This is one of the dumbest, most idiotic posts I've read in long awhile here. Jugent, you really believe that? I can see the board meetings at UBI. "Yup, to hell with a top-notch product the virtual pilots of the world can love. Just give the Yankees their Mustang."

Jeesh, and they call Americans ignorant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That post is the essence of problems inside this game, and yours is not only amero ignorant but also stupid and uninformed. Try flying blue and than red. Even americano should see that ****** can fly for red, but not blue side.
Performance of allied planes goes hand in hand with market and ability of children to use tham easily and eficiently. They saw on tv that americanos won, and they wonna win too. Who cares about E retention when money is in question? Judging by allied planes in this game 1c doesnt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Your first post made stupid post of the year, and this one is a tie for first. Congrats for making the two top stupidest posts of the year. Want to try for the top three?

I'm not going to waste my breath on telling you why you're 100% wrong. Try and figure it out Einstein.

hop2002
05-10-2005, 09:23 AM
ZOOM CLIMB
This is the odd part...the 109G-6 Late seemed to fall off the quickest...with the FW190 and Spitfire stalling about the same time. In-part due to Oldmans excellent skill in keeping the FW190 from stalling. We both reached about the same point after a high speed pullout (about 700-750kph). This I feel to be wrong...the Spitfire holds a bit too much E for its type of fighter in this position.

If you are holding the climb until the stall, you are no longer zooming, but steady state climb. The Spitfire is going to gain at the end of the climb as the speed drops, because it climbs better.

Here's the AFDU on the Tempest (best zoom climber they tested, iirc) against the Spit XIV:

"The Tempest is not in the same class as the Spitfire XIV. The Tempest V however, has a considerably better zoom climb, holding a higher speed thoughout the manoeuvre. If the climb is prolonged until climbing speed is reached then, of course, the Spitfire XIV will begin to catch up and pull ahead."


Its been long said that the Spitfire retains energy in manuevers...it appears to be true.

It should be true, of course. Energy retention is about low wingloading and high powerloading, and the Spit has both.

(Lower wingloading means less induced drag in pitch movements, higher powerloading means energy is recovered quicker, and needs to be shed less to maintain the manouever)


The FW190 is supposedly the beter zoom climber (according to what we've read) but I caught him at the bottom of the dive and outzoomed him. I'm pretty sure thats not right but I leave that for the rest of the people in the know to decide.


It's not right, but testing can account for this. You said the 190 opened a considerable gap in the dive. When it began it's pullout, it was lower? If the trailing Spit begins the pullout at the same time, it is "cutting the corner", and starts it's pullout higher than the 190. That means it has a headstart in the zoom, (this is more dramatic the steeper the angle of the initial dive), plus of course it burns less energy in the pitch up, again more of an issue the steeper the dive.

robban75
05-10-2005, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
And there is no way a Spit in game will out roll any German bird, at any speed or altitude, especially the fantasy roll rate of the FW 190.

The Spitfire shouldn't outroll the Fw 190 at any speed. But at low speeds it comes pretty close when using rudder. A full 360 deg roll can be made in 2.4 seconds. That's just .5 second slower than the fastest roll rate of the Wurger with rudder.

Another example. The max roll rate for the P-40 is .10 seconds slower than that of the 190 which is 2.10 for a full roll. Which means the P-40 has a roll rate of 160-170deg/sec when it should be 95deg/sec according to the NACA roll chart.

Anyways, rollrates for planes in the sim are generally overmodelled.

Kasdeya
05-10-2005, 10:46 AM
Hey P1ngu, I would also like to extend my hand at the P47. Get ahold to me on HL tonight or here. Will be on same time as last night. BTW how'd you do in the B25 last night?

ElAurens
05-10-2005, 10:49 AM
Thanks for your mature response robban.

The NACA roll chart for the P40 reflects roll rates for the later models, E and M in the sim. The early P40s have roll rates much closer to the high numbers you cited.

OldMan____
05-10-2005, 10:54 AM
We all started zoom when we reached sea level. Probably no more than 10 m difference among them. And Wing loading meanso NOTHING when you are going STRAIGHT UP!! Wing loading helps in lift vector.. !! not to your front. Bt the contrary.. a lower drag 190 wing should be advantage when going straight up.

The fact is that the spit recovered a 1.5 KM difference during the zoom. If both planes started together... he would have passed by me for LOOONG way.


We will be doing more tests as required (BTW ICE.. i discovered why my microphone was not working.... pink connector was not connected :P )

p1ngu666
05-10-2005, 10:57 AM
robban i think the curve for teh p47 is wrong, it should peak at a higher speed than it does currently http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

hop2002
05-10-2005, 11:01 AM
. And Wing loading meanso NOTHING when you are going STRAIGHT UP!! Wing loading helps in lift vector.. !! not to your front. Bt the contrary.. a lower drag 190 wing should be advantage when going straight up.

If you pull up into a vertical climb from horizontal flight, you are first completing a 90 degree turn, and usually a pretty sharp one at that.

If you pull up into a vertical climb from a dive, yout are turning more than 90 degrees, indeed up to 180 degrees, depending on how steep the dive was.

The tighter that turn, ie the sharper the pull up, the more advantage it gives the Spitfire, which will lose less energy than the 190 during the pull up.

A turn is a pitching movement, whether that's in the horizontal or vertical plane, it's exactly the same as far as energy bleed goes.

robban75
05-10-2005, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Thanks for your mature response robban.

The NACA roll chart for the P40 reflects roll rates for the later models, E and M in the sim. The early P40s have roll rates much closer to the high numbers you cited.

The P-40 on the NACA chart is an F model, and since they had the same wing(at least that's what it lookes like from the outside) I thought the models would all roll pretty similar to each other. I didn't know there was such a big difference though. My bad. Sorry 'bout that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

p1ngu666
05-10-2005, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Kasdeya:
Hey P1ngu, I would also like to extend my hand at the P47. Get ahold to me on HL tonight or here. Will be on same time as last night. BTW how'd you do in the B25 last night?

sure if your about gimme a poke http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mixed in the b25, i shot down a 190, damaged a 109 but a ai stole the kill, my game was running REALLY badly, i managed to improve it abit by alt tabin and shutting things down, i got a ship and i clipped 1 of the wires on my next run and blew up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
think i jurked just at the wrong momoment... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

hop2002
05-10-2005, 11:05 AM
The fact is that the spit recovered a 1.5 KM difference during the zoom. If both planes started together... he would have passed by me for LOOONG way.

What do you mean if you were both starting from sea level?

If you mean the Spit was 1.5 km behind the 190, which levelled out, then stayed at sea level until the Spit also reached sea level, then both pulled up at the same time, then the Spit HAD to cut the corner to arrive anywhere near the 190, and the 190 also burned speed holding level flight at sea level waiting for the Spit to complete it's dive.

Could you explan the dive/ zoom climb procedure a bit more? Because I'm having a hard time visualising what you mean.

BuzzU
05-10-2005, 11:09 AM
I think we need to wait for the new FM in 4.0 before we get too serious about testing. I have a feeling a lot is going to change.

CUJO_1970
05-10-2005, 11:16 AM
The FW190 actually has a smaller roll advantage over many fighters in the sim than it did in real life, it's been tested extensively.


Heve you guys tested high-speed climb rates?

For example, I've found that zooming to vertical after a dive is not always a good idea online while I'm flying the FW190A against planes like the Spitfire.

What does work really, really well is to "flatten out" into a high-speed climb maintaining at least 250mph(minimum). I'm normally climbing at 275mph.

Or I can simply choose to out run the Spitfire.

The FW190 can climb all day long at high speeds/low angles and I've used this against Spitfires very successfully. Spitfires can't seem to resist following a FW190 that is climbing. It works like a charm in drag-n-bag situations especially.

p1ngu666
05-10-2005, 11:17 AM
hop i think both me and ice cut the corner abit, but im not sure by how much ice did...

OldMan____
05-10-2005, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
hop i think both me and ice cut the corner abit, but im not sure by how much ice did...

yeap.. but by simple trigonometrics it is impossible to you to cut more than 50% of difference. So you guys gained a lot. The point is.. 1.5 KM advantage in a FW is not helpful against a SPIT MK9. You would need about 2 km.


Also I did not went straight up.. I went to 90 degrees up ina SMOOTH PULL out. So they cut not much distance. And I lost not more than 10 kph waiting for otehrs reach same level. At end of dive we 3 were in a quite shallow dive to avoid desintegration.



We tested climb, me at 330 kph and others at their desired slow speeds. For some time FW went well openning more horizontal difference than SPIT and G6 were doing at vertical, but as soon as 2000m was reached.. things got very bad for FW. I also overheated fairly soon if compared to others so I had to reduce pitch a little bit too soon and lost even more time.

Another interesting data. In turning, while speed was >370 kph the FWA8 kept in turn with G6 and SPIT. Then it started loosing SPEED fast. At 400 kph I was still overtaking their turn. Form the several turns my impression is FW does turn well as long it enters the turn fast. It cannot ENTER slow in a turn.

p1ngu666
05-10-2005, 12:21 PM
well, id say the 190 was worse in going up than spit and 109 unless its very very fast.. (maybe)
so the 190 pretty much hasto stay level or dive to "gain" a advantage of performance over spit or 109, going up the spit or 109 has the advantage.

its also why id rather fly 109 in some ways vs 190
190 cos 109 can outclimb and outspeed spitfire if its a mw50 109 that is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Badsight.
05-10-2005, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
leadspitter means very high speed, i think hes right, the 109 has fairly good elivator when u start to pull, then it goes no he isnt

& no it doesnt

& dude , you got to stop using il2compare or that other plane compare

base your opinion on what you get the plane to do yourself , il2 compare topspeed & climb dont also show overheat or pitch /rad settings & isnt relevant to "in a DF"

its good your testing & all because just looking at il2compare will give you a wack impression of what planes in FB-PF can do

Badsight.
05-10-2005, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I think the Mark V and the 109F matchup is probably the most enjoyable and realistic...its very close either way...depending on pilots mostly. that or a G2 struggle

the Mk5 in FB are magic

slower than they should but meh , so what , top speed dont win DFs , just makes getting away eaiser

Badsight.
05-10-2005, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
lets just hope 4.0 improves E bleeding. I get very sad when I bounce a spit that is flying at 400 kph and I am at 600 .. on OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS!!!! and he just make 180 turn.. climb.. and catch me at top of hill!!!!. you must have turned off your motor , because with speed management , you cannot do what you just claimed happened , in FB-PF

you cannot keep speed in a full hard turning 180

you cannot catch someone going faster than you

you either climed without proper speed management , or did something else that you shouldnt have

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
bla bla bla

bias

& more bla bla bla. Hayate Hater , you dislike overmoddeling

if this is the case , then why do you like Spitfires

the answer is that you just want easy-to-kill axis planes

when are you going to tell this board what your real login is ?

Gwalker70
05-11-2005, 12:11 AM
the luft planes overmodelness is livable to the allied.. but some of the allied planes energy retention just makes things crazy in the fight for blue side. fixing all the games FM problems will make the blue side smile a whole lot more than red side. The Spit 9 is just crazy.. like I said before I fly low icon server.. when I look down and see the little dots fighitng below me.. I always know which dot to latch on to for boom and zoom.. its the one going back and forth.. back and forth.. back and forth .. with no speed lose. 95% of the time its a Spit 9 .. or Yak 3 when its a russian plane set.

At least it coulda been a REAL plane with balls that had FM uberness.. like a P38 or 47 lol not some little ***gy planes like spits or yaks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
The Spitfire (any mark) cannot catch a 109/190 of similar time frame in level flight, regardless of altitude. Unless the Spit has a very large E advantage (altitude) it cannot out dive or zoom climb any of it's Germanic opponents. It cannot out roll any of it's adversarys. It's steady state climb is no where near as good as the 109. Any advantage it has in the turn can be overcome in a 109 by simply using the 109's totally unrealistic deceleration and forcing the Spit to over shoot. (Same goes for catching a 109 in the dive.)

The Spit is well armed, but the German planes are equally well armed. No advantage to either side here.

In short, the German birds are probably the best aircraft in the game. True they take skill and patience to fly, but once mastered they are the owners of the sky. partially true

kills are not made by running tho , & the Spitfire is the best plane out of those 3 in a DF , out of any other plane too by my experience

that being said , in a multiples situation , the Spitfire has to be left alone to get a FW-190 killed

the FW is simply too fast at med alts , its a high speed only plane , as in you will get owned fast at low speeds . but if you dont slow down . . . . .


Originally posted by Gwalker70:
its the one going back and forth.. back and forth.. back and forth .. with no speed lose. 95% of the time its a Spit 9 .. or Yak 3 when its a russian plane set. hard turning in FB without speed loss is not possible in v3.04 (probably never was in any other patch either)

fly the Yak-3 or La-7 in v3.04 (your posting like you havent)

those 2 planes are NOTHING like what they used to be in a DF

somewhere along the line (probably after we recieved PF) they have changed Big Time , for the less capable

Gwalker70
05-11-2005, 12:17 AM
well you know what I mean.. obviously not ZERO speed lose. just very very little .. my god.. we got a scientist in the house.. better be literal now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 12:26 AM
or you could just be objective & not try to make planes sound better or worse than they really are in FB

try it , being objective isnt hard

Gwalker70
05-11-2005, 12:26 AM
Old man.. dont fight the spit 9's anymore.. you have to gang up on them .. or bounce them while they are busy... dont go 1 on 1 with them till we see what the patch is all about.. its like pissing in the wind.. you have to fly at 150% of your skill if you are in a luft plane.. while he only has to fly at like 50% of his (unless you are in a Spit 9 as well lol)

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 12:30 AM
Gwalkwer , they (109s & Spits) are basically the same

except for looping , Spits have excellent E abilities

same turn , same accelleration , similer climb in-a-DF

MW50 Bf109s have a higher top speed

all F G & K 109s roll far better at 300 & over speeds

Gwalker70
05-11-2005, 12:31 AM
badight please shutup,, everybody knows you are the magpie of the boards here.. I dont feel like dancing around the problem.. .. ill say it even harder now.. SPIT 9 IS A JOKE. how you like them apples???

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 12:36 AM
please show something that proves what i just posted above you is wrong

if you cannot , then id stand by the opinion that YOUR problem is between your Keyboard & your chair

Gwalker70
05-11-2005, 12:39 AM
like I said before.. many planes have FM issues.. both allied and german planes are guilty.. but I said TO WHAT DEGREE COMPARED TOO... and when you look at the problem planes right now.. allied planes have more "fun busting" issues.. it has to do with energy retention.. thats the biggest thing on the list that can kill historical aura while playing the game.

dont try and be cute with words and phrases...I see through that BS.

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 12:44 AM
so in other words , all you have is an opinion that Bf109s are not like Spitfires in performance

& no real knowledge of what they really are like in FB-PF

please , dont take this the wrong way , just test , youll see it too . Bf109s are so close to Spitfires performance that it comes down to pilot skill

that being said , any Spitfire in FB-PF has the edge in E

pourshot
05-11-2005, 12:45 AM
you have to fly at 150% of your skill if you are in a luft plane.. while he only has to fly at like 50% of his (unless you are in a Spit 9 as well lol)

What a load of rubbish, let me guess you get killed alot by spits http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Spits and whine O 9's are closer than most people are willing to admit, this **** that you are elite if flying axis is getting old.

Gwalker70
05-11-2005, 12:48 AM
ok you wanna do a full breakdown at 12 am PST for 4 hours? I suggest if you really want to take it to heart, it should be a community effort with all concerned.

dont be cute and use the "give me full scientific report on your claim" bull**** .. thats an old tactic here on the boards ok.. again.. I see through your magpie ways

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 12:52 AM
i can only wish it was a old ploy , then we would see more accurate posts

instead we see a lot of opinions posted that seem to be totally based on what happens in a DF

a "full" report isnt necessary at all , just take the time out to fly FB alone for a bit & do some basic testing

you cant take DF events & say this is how planes are

you need to test them properly

if your unwilling to do this , then your not open to others viewpoints & are holding onto an opinion that wont be correct

Gwalker70
05-11-2005, 12:59 AM
well whatever.. I mean there we go you have an opinion.. and so do I ... what kills me is not that most fly the spit 9 and have fun killing planes out of context.. but the fact that a lot of people here while they fly thier "plane of the patch" to get good kills and be on top of the "game", defend the fualts like a rapid banshee and then even speak up to counter blue side and call us who want to question the fact "losers" "whiners" "no skill pilots" ect ect.. so to all who challenge me go F yourself.. get back in the sim and crawl into your bullsh1t planes .. pretend your are mr joe cool and ruin the game experience for the rest of us "normal" people who just want the **** game historical to begin with.

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 01:04 AM
"well whatever" are you trying to say that because this isnt the fun of a DF or coop that it isnt worth your time ?

if you are , then never post your opinion of how planes in FB perform , ever again

btw : an opinion is only an opinion till its backed up with testing , i sense your opinion is only an opinion

Gwalker70
05-11-2005, 01:23 AM
I sense you need to get KTFO in real life lol

pourshot
05-11-2005, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Gwalker70:
I sense you need to get KTFO in real life lol

LoL I sence you need to take another pill and have a lay down.

Gwalker70
05-11-2005, 04:18 AM
I sense I need to do your wife .. DOH http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ploughman
05-11-2005, 05:09 AM
"...and G******70 takes thread to new low, Mr Rational Debate puts his coat on and takes his dog for a walk as G******70 accuses Spitfire and Yak-3 of being butt buddies and then suggests a three-in-a-bed session with anyone who disagrees with him.
'Pointless even reading some peoples posts,' said Mr R. Debate. 'So I got the lead out and took Rover down the pub for a swift one.'

Does this game model drag realistically?

OldMan____
05-11-2005, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Gwalker70:
Old man.. dont fight the spit 9's anymore.. you have to gang up on them .. or bounce them while they are busy... dont go 1 on 1 with them till we see what the patch is all about.. its like pissing in the wind.. you have to fly at 150% of your skill if you are in a luft plane.. while he only has to fly at like 50% of his (unless you are in a Spit 9 as well lol)

I have no problem in not being able to knife fight a SPIT 9. I would just want to be able to evade froma SPIT tha I just bounced while climbing. Even if I pass it at higher speed I need to dive. if I try regain my altitude it will catch me in that ultra slow climb that some planes can do (some bf109 an yak too) but in wich none has such perfect control of nose as the spit has. It will just keep climbing until I level.. than it will fire on me from bellow since he noes do not shake at 45 degree ultra slow climb.

Hope improved torque effect will remove this ability from all planes but P38.

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 08:22 AM
Don't need to read through all the posts to make a good recommendation. Here you go;

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3421088913

Kind Regards,
Fritz Franzen

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by Gwalker70:
I sense I need to do your wife .. DOH http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Now there's a show of intellegence. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fritz Franzen

CUJO_1970
05-11-2005, 11:38 AM
Listen to Badsight. He speaks true things.

Calling all Spitfire pilots noobs is complete nonesense.

I think you guys are climbing too slow in the FW190 in your tests.

400kph is a slow climb for me on WarClouds. If there are no bandits near, I'll reduce pitch to 90%, throttle to 90% and open the radiators in the climb.

jessi1
05-11-2005, 11:39 AM
I thought the g in gwalker stood for GAY cause thats how you sound with remarks like that, always little boys with there little boy comments, go play donkey kong little noob boy and dont waste our time. You thought you had a pubic hair till you pee'd out of it.

pourshot
05-12-2005, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by Gwalker70:
I sense I need to do your wife .. DOH http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Reported http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Gwalker70
05-12-2005, 01:40 AM
like your not guilty.. taking a shot at me in the middle of the thread.. whatever.. dont push a guy in the chest.. then when you get hit, run to teacher and taddy tale

pourshot
05-12-2005, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by Gwalker70:
like your not guilty.. taking a shot at me in the middle of the thread.. whatever.. dont push a guy in the chest.. then when you get hit, run to teacher and taddy tale

It has been a long time since I was at school but when I was I never started a fight by pushing, I much prefered to just king hit them end of story.

The fact is you resorted to foul insults when a smarter person would have used a little wit. Suggesting you will screw someones wife is going too far IMHO.

Gwalker70
05-12-2005, 03:10 AM
well.. maybe I get banned.. .. but you will learn your lesson for piping in out of context next time... becuase then you will have developed a pattern and reputation

OldMan____
05-12-2005, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
Listen to Badsight. He speaks true things.

Calling all Spitfire pilots noobs is complete nonesense.

I think you guys are climbing too slow in the FW190 in your tests.

400kph is a slow climb for me on WarClouds. If there are no bandits near, I'll reduce pitch to 90%, throttle to 90% and open the radiators in the climb.

Mayebe yes, but >400 during all climbs is not easy. Also dues to much highes acceleration from spit and lower E bleed... spit is usually fatsre than the FW 5 seconds after their engange maneuver id complete if they started with FW only 100 kph faster.


Late 109 can do almost everything an Spit can.. when I spea here I am speaking ain a 190 poitn of view. I am convinced acceleration is main issue here.

Simple speed tests tell not the hole story. When we 3 made that test online we could see that when runing spit will probably batch teh FW since it will take too much time to FW reach a reasonable speed. Also if FW just bounce spit... the RAF guy may just turn evade and re accelerate very fast. Unless FW190 speed is >=500 the spit will catch it! I am trying hard to change my tatocs to keep >500 kph.. but is quite boring since you cannot engage anythign that knows you are there.

Diablo310th
05-12-2005, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
Listen to Badsight. He speaks true things.

Calling all Spitfire pilots noobs is complete nonesense.

I think you guys are climbing too slow in the FW190 in your tests.

400kph is a slow climb for me on WarClouds. If there are no bandits near, I'll reduce pitch to 90%, throttle to 90% and open the radiators in the climb.

Mayebe yes, but >400 during all climbs is not easy. Also dues to much highes acceleration from spit and lower E bleed... spit is usually fatsre than the FW 5 seconds after their engange maneuver id complete if they started with FW only 100 kph faster.


Late 109 can do almost everything an Spit can.. when I spea here I am speaking ain a 190 poitn of view. I am convinced acceleration is main issue here.

Simple speed tests tell not the hole story. When we 3 made that test online we could see that when runing spit will probably batch teh FW since it will take too much time to FW reach a reasonable speed. Also if FW just bounce spit... the RAF guy may just turn evade and re accelerate very fast. Unless FW190 speed is >=500 the spit will catch it! I am trying hard to change my tatocs to keep >500 kph.. but is quite boring since you cannot engage anythign that knows you are there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you FW pilots think that's bad...try doing the same in a Jug. E-bleed is even worse in the Jug. Pull up into a zoom climb after diving and in no time you're at stall speed and no matter who was on ur tail they have you. Lets hope the inertia is better modeled with 4.0

p1ngu666
05-12-2005, 07:49 AM
well i could nearly hang with ice in his VIII in a g6late, not a big gap by any means either
g2,g6as,g10 might well be able to hang with spit. g6as and g10 are also faster and more climby than spit...

190 is probably undermodeled abit, 109 is probably overmodeled. but thats ok cos its a 109 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

robban75
05-12-2005, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Diablo310th:
If you FW pilots think that's bad...try doing the same in a Jug. E-bleed is even worse in the Jug. Pull up into a zoom climb after diving and in no time you're at stall speed and no matter who was on ur tail they have you. Lets hope the inertia is better modeled with 4.0

Here's a zoom comparison between the Spitfire MkVIII, Fw 190A-6 and P-47D-27.

Pull-up speed 750km/h. Climb angle ~45deg. Time from the start of the pull up till 45deg was reached ~8 seconds.

Spd - VIII - A-6 - P47

750 --- 6 --- 6 --- 6
700 - 124 - 156 - 150
650 - 306 - 360 - 357
600 - 507 - 570 - 580
550 - 725 - 796 - 802
500 - 934 - 1010 - 1023
450 - 1138 - 1221 - 1238
400 - 1338 - 1417 - 1434
350 - 1530 - 1604 - 1631
300 - 1725 - 1777 - 1816
250 - 1922 - 1943 - 1989
200 - 2123 - 2095 - 2152

MEGILE
05-12-2005, 10:40 AM
The P-47 holds its energy well from this data.
The FW-190A pulls away first, then the P-47 gains and over takes it. The FW-190A starts to drop off rapidly at the end, whereas the P-47D holds steady http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Having said that, zooming away in any plane does not seem to be a good escape tactic if the bandit is very close.

http://img225.echo.cx/img225/971/zoom7eb.jpg

Proof of the pudding will be in the BF-109 zoom climb, any chance Robban? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

robban75
05-12-2005, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
Proof of the pudding will be in the BF-109 zoom climb, any chance Robban? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Which version? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

WUAF_Toad
05-12-2005, 12:15 PM
I think it's time I need to butt in and put a stop to this nonsense about "zoom climb" before you guys make Oleg jacks up the climb rate because of the whinings. Just picture two balls of the same size but one is heavy and one is light. Roll them down a hill and the heavy one will rolls much farther. Tie them up and swing them like pendulums and they will rise up to almost the same height. E-fighting lesson of the day is inertia doesn't really do jack for your so called "zoom climb", what it does is it helps you to extend in the horizontal. For example, the P47 is the best plane to trade altitude for speed. The key is to dive down till your speed is above your top speed, then level out and use your inertia to its fullest. Once you need more speed just repeat the procedure. You should be able to leave the spit in the dust if you do this correctly. It doesn't look good whining about stuff you don't truely understand.

MEGILE
05-12-2005, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by robban75:


Which version? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

hmm, BF-109G6A/S is probably the most commonly used 109 in Western Front 1944 servers.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

p1ngu666
05-12-2005, 03:31 PM
g2 and k4, if u have time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

OldMan____
05-12-2005, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by WUAF_Toad:
I think it's time I need to butt in and put a stop to this nonsense about "zoom climb" before you guys make Oleg jacks up the climb rate because of the whinings. Just picture two balls of the same size but one is heavy and one is light. Roll them down a hill and the heavy one will rolls much farther. Tie them up and swing them like pendulums and they will rise up to almost the same height. E-fighting lesson of the day is inertia doesn't really do jack for your so called "zoom climb", what it does is it helps you to extend in the horizontal. For example, the P47 is the best plane to trade altitude for speed. The key is to dive down till your speed is above your top speed, then level out and use your inertia to its fullest. Once you need more speed just repeat the procedure. You should be able to leave the spit in the dust if you do this correctly. It doesn't look good whining about stuff you don't truely understand.

FW190 should zoomclimb better than SPIT not cause of wieght (that is plain stupid) but because of LOWER DRAG!

HellToupee
05-12-2005, 08:24 PM
if at high speed, lower speed powerloading takes over

BuzzU
05-12-2005, 08:47 PM
You all really need to wait for 4.0.

p1ngu666
05-12-2005, 10:06 PM
thought zoomclimb was more about weight, that u keep the momentum more?
thinking of p47 vs spit...

Badsight.
05-12-2005, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
I am trying hard to change my tatocs to keep >500 kph.. but is quite boring since you cannot engage anythign that knows you are there. if you do stay over 400 at all times , you too will see how the FW totally rules Spitfires as of RIGHT NOW , they are too slow to compete with you

look at Robbans test , FW has better accelleration in the upper half of the speed range

this game teaches turn & E fighting , you are not going to beat Spits at their own game , you have to fly the "FW way"

you said before that you passed a guy at 600 & he was doing what you thought was 400 , & he did a hard turn & caught you

that is not possible to do in FB unless you slowed down , you cannot turn full hard & keep speed , regardless of plane in this game

Badsight.
05-12-2005, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
190 is probably undermodeled abit, 109 is probably overmodeled. but thats ok cos its a 109 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif for the longest time , the only plane in FB with a undermoddeled climb rate was , you guessed it , the FW-190