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View Full Version : It is not MK108, it is the Experte !



Hristos
03-18-2005, 12:22 AM
title says it all...

Don't feel bad about being shot down by MK108, as you have probably stumbled upon a better pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HayateAce
03-18-2005, 12:43 AM
"Mk108 is been given unrealistic accuracy, due to player complaint."

- Oleg

Marc-David
03-18-2005, 12:44 AM
Maybe it is the MK108 in the hand of an Experte?
And regarding the Kotzehub-Violin-Statement: Give me saxophon and I will make earpain to your ears. But give me my trusty Ibanez guitar, and I'll have a superiour speed, better climbing, and some realy fast turning melodies all the day. Even in a none-tube-amplifier altitude http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif No way I could do this in a Les Paul or a Strat...
IT's the united effort of superior craftsmanship combined with superior technic or the tehcnic that fits yours personal fighting style to 100%. Marsaille started to score the dozens after receiving their new Friedrichs. Not while flying in an Emil.

http://www.lemonade-music.de/Bilder10012004/hsn_2004/images/DSC02721.jpg

Yours, MD

p1ngu666
03-18-2005, 12:58 AM
or a noob, someone who needs a crutch, a average lw player, a troll, a fisherman http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

to follow hayateace, its also 5% too strong, cos of player whining http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jagdklinger
03-18-2005, 01:03 AM
Well, it's the only weapon that can actually down anything in one pass (well, that was a biiittt of a generalisation) - does anyone else think planes (except for maybe P47, much as I hate to admit it) are incredibly tough compared to what they were in WWII?

I'm naming my firstborn son 'Mark' in it's honour - 'Mark 108 Smith'... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Hristos
03-18-2005, 01:15 AM
So, HayateAce believes 5% makes an Experte ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG54_Arnie
03-18-2005, 02:26 AM
Its the easiest spray and pray weapon now.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anarchy52
03-18-2005, 02:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
Its the easiest spray and pray weapon now.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is accurate but not precise (shells scatter a lot). Has signifficant shell drop and low velocity very hard to use for deflection shooting unless you're close.
I'd say it's pretty accuratelly modelled.

The thing I don't like about it is inconsistency -
it either blasts the opponent to pieces or causes only minor damage - the other day one of my buddies hit a King Cobra with mk108 and caused minor smoke from the engine no impact on the performance, guy turned and I fired a burst from FW-190A8, deflection of about 45degrees, hit him in the wingroot and fuselage, observed at least one mk108 explosion (user STAT counted 15 hits in that burst) but he merrily flew on until veteran AI focke with 20mm blasted it apart.

mk108 is the only thing that keeps late german planes competitive.

JG54_Arnie
03-18-2005, 02:41 AM
Oh cool, I'm an alliedwhiner now? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Hey stop editing your post. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

My point still stands. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And I wonder if it will really change when, if, we get MG shells in the 151/20 cause the 108 will still be the easy quick kill weapon, a lot more than the 151/20 will ever be.

What we need is a way to limit loadouts for users, so you can have an early 43 mission with the G6 but without 108's for example.

And for you info, on late war missions I enjoy flying the A9 for example, but I dont use the 108's and can kill the enemy fine. 4 of the current 151/20's still pack a punch..

Hristos
03-18-2005, 02:53 AM
I'll reiterate that it takes an Experte to bring that potato gun to bear.

Too low muzzle velocity, too short range, too low rate of fire.

In fact, if you get hit by MK108, you probably did something very wrong. You could be hit just as well by a monkey throwing rocks.

JG54_Arnie
03-18-2005, 03:05 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif funny guy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Do you know how I see it work online? for example last night, I was in a P-47, got a little too slow after a few BnZ runs and a 109 was some 400 meters behind.. I was slowly climbing and in a slight turn to keep an eye on my six. Then this guy fires a burst of two seconds high up, got one hit on my wing and gone was my wing.

For a cannon this big it has an excellent rate of fire, its trajectory is very easy to get a hang of, so when you know where to point, hold the trigger for a second or two and voila, one shell is bound to hit the target == kill. I think only the yak9T is capable of the same trick? Try this in the P-39. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now this would be all fine and cool if this weapon was used on a more limited basis and mostly on bombers. But you see it used on dogfights where blue always has the numbers in their favour and 9/10 people fly a 109 with 108 mounted. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Hristos
03-18-2005, 03:12 AM
Arnie, you probably met a Hartmann or Rall there, no doubt. Do not be surprised that he hit you. Those guys were that good !

But you can't simply consider every guy who jumps in a blue plane to be Hartmann himself !

Do not base your theories on just one bad example. Take an inferior pilot, some Spit driver for example and give him a MK108 armed 109. He will use all his ammo and still won't hit you. Just try it.

carguy_
03-18-2005, 03:18 AM
Looks like the LW lobby is torn in two.

First group exaggers LW flaws/dev flaws and likes to whine pretty much about everything.The other group isn`t afraid of saying some truth about online LW experience compared to real life.


MK108 has bad accuracy being it worst flaw.Firing from distances bigger than 120m is a lottery.

Also many times because of the low ROF I fired a 6shell burst at a passing plane and not one hit him.I happens pretty often so some LW pilots just press on the trigger for 2 secs hoping they hit something.If you ask me that looks terrible.Firing 12 or 15 shells in one burst of while the complete amount is somewhere around 60shells.What a waste!


I choose MK108 either because my superior orders me to or I hunt for IL2.For fighter sweeps I take always MG151/20.The second weapon has a funny psyche effect on me.If I miss with MK108 few times I mine aswell go back to base cuz I`m helpless."No ammo" message appears too often with this weapon whereas I can shoot a long burst and still have lots of ammo with me 20mm.Even if it is too weak.

Besides both weapons present similar effectiveness at ranges higher than 150m -minor damage,terrible accuracy.

Ppl say MK108 is great against 2-4 engine bombers.Complete lie.To shoot down such bombers with this weapon you need to get in effective range which is sueside.A single MK108 is not an option for bomber busting and MG151/20 gunpods(with MG shells DUH) do very good job from ranges up to 220m.A 2 sec well aimed burst at a safe range and speed brings down a B17 which gives out a potential of 3-6 B17 shot down with MG151/20 gunpods.Only MK103 gunpods on FW190 are better.


I don`t like MK108 but I must choose it to fight against IL2 or Yaks or P39.

Hristos
03-18-2005, 03:23 AM
If you want to train discipline in shooting, MK108 is your best bet. Be sure !

Anyone ever heard of Hajo Herman ? Well google up some info and you'll know what I mean.

JG54_Arnie
03-18-2005, 03:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristos:
Arnie, you probably met a Hartmann or Rall there, no doubt. Do not be surprised that he hit you. Those guys were that good !

But you can't simply consider every guy who jumps in a blue plane to be Hartmann himself !

Do not base your theories on just one bad example. Take an inferior pilot, some Spit driver for example and give him a MK108 armed 109. He will use all his ammo and still won't hit you. Just try it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I did say it was an example right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And it wasnt a hartmann or whatever other guy, well it was some other guy, but not... well you know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And it does take a little to get used to, I said that as well. But its not that hard, my guess would be that this, so called, not so experienced pilot would be able to get a kill somewhere in his first sorty with the 109. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PlaneEater
03-18-2005, 03:32 AM
Everybody knows REAL aces use their .45 cal sidearms to bring down their targets.

ploughman
03-18-2005, 03:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Take an inferior pilot, some Spit driver for example <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oooh. You're asking for it buddy, outside right now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

flyingscampi
03-18-2005, 04:55 AM
Dogfight servers have little resemblance to real life combat so why complain about the use of unrealistic weapons?

I've read several war diaries of LW pilots who regularly shot down aircraft with only the MG's as the cannon regularly jammed. Sometimes they acheived a kill with only one 7.62 firing.

That would be some achievement in an IL2 dogfight server http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GUARD4000
03-18-2005, 05:22 AM
many many red players would trade all their weapons on their planes for a mk108 if they can.
I would.But since it is impossible,people have to get used to what they have.

And to carguy:u said that 15 shells in one burst while the whole ammo u get is 60 shells.That might be a waste of ammo.But it is far better to waste a chance.With 15 shells u are certain that guy will die, while with other weapons people usually cant kill that guy in one pass and have to shoot him again and again.Often his buddies will come.

Roy_15JG52
03-18-2005, 05:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GUARD4000:
many many red players would trade all their weapons on their planes for a mk108 if they can.
I would. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hispanos and ShVAKs for MK108? Geez...

WUAF_Toad
03-18-2005, 05:39 AM
Don't be so naive. It is much easier to get a kill with the MK108 because scoring one big hit with a snap shot is much easier than scoring multiple tracking shots with a weaker weapon.

Hristos
03-18-2005, 05:46 AM
Close you red books and don't open no more !

Anyone who seats in a blue plane immediately becomes an Experte. Unless he gets shot down, in which case he switches to red side.

JG54_Arnie
03-18-2005, 06:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyingscampi:
Dogfight servers have little resemblance to real life combat so why complain about the use of unrealistic weapons?

I've read several war diaries of LW pilots who regularly shot down aircraft with only the MG's as the cannon regularly jammed. Sometimes they acheived a kill with only one 7.62 firing.

That would be some achievement in an IL2 dogfight server http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, I'd rather fly in an environment where the situation is as close to reality as possible and within that range we can have unrealistic fights because of the john rambo feeling and refly button. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Doesnt mean things like limiting loadouts dont matter, they would make the balance a lot better in servers.

They would allow for 110's in a 1942 setting without 108's and such. Or 108-less 109's in a fighter vs fighter only dogfight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

MEGILE
03-18-2005, 06:36 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

I like MK108 because it blows stuff up.

Jumoschwanz
03-18-2005, 07:02 AM
If anyone calls the mk108 uber then they have not used it that much.

The single mk108 in the nose of the late 109 is really hard to land a shot with. In a high-deflection shot the chances are the target will fly between your rounds three out of four times.
If you load up with the dual mk108 gunpods then it gives you a higher rate of fire, but the plane is then so heavy it flies worse than an Il2.
This is why I don't fly with it unless I am going after bombers. I prefer the 20mm cannon options for the 109. They have a high rate of fire and though not as effective as the other 20mm cannons in the sim, landing any hits is better than none with the mk108.
I am far from the best shot with this sim, but usually my FBD daemon stats put me close to 10% hit rate, which is at least average.
When you do land a shot with the mk108 or mk103, yes it is devastating, but it should be, it was a big-a$$ shell full of explosives.

If the .303 and fifty caliber, spray and pray online-jocks flew with the single mk108 for a month they would not be able to hit a thing for a long time, and would change their tune.

The mk108 sucks!

Jumoschwanz

KGr.HH-Sunburst
03-18-2005, 07:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
For a cannon this big it has an excellent rate of fire, its trajectory is very easy to get a hang of, so when you know where to point, hold the trigger for a second or two and voila, one shell is bound to hit the target == kill. I think only the yak9T is capable of the same trick? Try this in the P-39. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now this would be all fine and cool if this weapon was used on a more limited basis and mostly on bombers. But you see it used on dogfights where blue always has the numbers in their favour and 9/10 people fly a 109 with 108 mounted. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

@Arnie i agree 100% with you and im glad you see it the same way i do
you are one of the few LW guys that doesnt have a problem with flying red.

as for the mk108 being an experten weapon is a joke
and its the reason i started flying red because
we all want that 1 hit 1 kil weapon and blast away in our 109.
i remember the old days when the mk108 was harder to use because it did less damage,harder to aim and a huge muzzle flash to deal with
but thats not the way it is anymore
and we all use it because the MG151 is less capable and harder to kill with
and 1 or 2 rounds from mk108 is a 99,9% of the time a kill,so how can it be an experten weapon?

you want to be an experten?, take up a G2 or G6 in late war servers with MG151/20 and try to kill a P51,P47,P38

FatBoyHK
03-18-2005, 07:34 AM
As you may know, I am a Mustang jock. Several months ago, when I just started playing online, I spent one night flying 109G6/AS with MK108. After I fried 5 engines in a row, I finally made it to the front line, what a noob I was.... But when I RTB, I got 4 kills already, all spitfires (which many consider them uber), and I should have plenty of ammo left.

My feeling is, MK108 is very easy to use... one snapshot, job done. I like making snapshot, even with Mustang's "weak" 50cals, so MK108 really suit my style perfectly.

And I tried MK108 offline too, I found that it is actually also a good spray-n-pray weapon. It will not give you many kill in one mission, but it will certainly enough for one or two kills, if you are not totally noob.

It is easy to deny a tracking shot solution, but it is extremely hard to deny a snap shot solution. Haha, I am quite confident with my snapshot skill, it take some hard work to evase my bullets, haha, but for most blue player, it is no big deal, 9 out of 10 of the time I can't kill them in one pass. Sometimes they just have a gamble, give me a snapshot opporunity, and take an opporunity for extension in return. It is a smart gamble nonetheless. Now, think about what may happen if I have one of two MK108s....

JG54_Arnie
03-18-2005, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
If anyone calls the mk108 uber then they have not used it that much.



The single mk108 in the nose of the late 109 is really hard to land a shot with. In a high-deflection shot the chances are the target will fly between your rounds three out of four times.
If you load up with the dual mk108 gunpods then it gives you a higher rate of fire, but the plane is then so heavy it flies worse than an Il2.
This is why I don't fly with it unless I am going after bombers. I prefer the 20mm cannon options for the 109. They have a high rate of fire and though not as effective as the other 20mm cannons in the sim, landing any hits is better than none with the mk108.
I am far from the best shot with this sim, but usually my FBD daemon stats put me close to 10% hit rate, which is at least average.
When you do land a shot with the mk108 or mk103, yes it is devastating, but it should be, it was a big-a$$ shell full of explosives.

If the .303 and fifty caliber, spray and pray online-jocks flew with the single mk108 for a month they would not be able to hit a thing for a long time, and would change their tune.

The mk108 sucks!

Jumoschwanz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you gotta be kidding me! I have tried the 108 enough to know that its easy to hit with. Only when you want to be really carefull with your ammo and are trying to hit with every cannon shell thats in that gun it will be a bit of a challange. Especially the 90 degree deflection shot, but hey, that cant be easy, try to get one shell, from a cannon mounted on a moving plane, on top of an enemy plane from a 90 degree angle, when that plane is moving 400 Km/h or more. But thats not the point.
This cannon is used by people who dont care about their ammo, fly at a persons six and blast away with it.
If you think this weapon sucks you need to try the allied side again, fly in a P-40 on a 1943 map where you end up in 1v2 or more fights against 109's with their '****ty' 108's.. then come back and let me know if you still feel the same way..
Maybe the .50's were a spray and pray weapon, but not anymore, you really need to get your bursts on target with it now.

x__CRASH__x
03-18-2005, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
"Mk108 is been given unrealistic accuracy, due to player complaint."

- Oleg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And yet we still are killers with it.

Real men don't need laser beams.

flyingscampi
03-18-2005, 10:20 AM
@Arnie - I'm all for realism myself! I just think that the reason the MK108 is so popular is that most dogfight servers have unlimited ammo and that the LW machine guns and 20mm seem to need a long burst of accurate fire to cause any critical damage.

The good LW fliers can acheive this but amateurs like me who rarely get a target in the crosshairs are always going to be tempted by the 30mm to rack up a few points.

p1ngu666
03-18-2005, 10:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyingscampi:
@Arnie - I'm all for realism myself! I just think that the reason the MK108 is so popular is that most dogfight servers have unlimited ammo and that the LW machine guns and 20mm seem to need a long burst of accurate fire to cause any critical damage.

The good LW fliers can acheive this but amateurs like me who rarely get a target in the crosshairs are always going to be tempted by the 30mm to rack up a few points. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

indeed. hristos is fishing or trollin too....

MK108 is a n00b weapon, cos ROF is 10 rounds a sec? same as hispano think mg151 and .50cal spit out 13 rounds a second.

flying p38 abit, doesnt seem much difference with weapons to a g6...

stop using mk108, and get some skill tbh

btw, i get kills with mg151, and im no lw plane experten http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

geetarman
03-18-2005, 10:38 AM
Contrarty to what Guard said, as a Mustang jock, I would not trade one MK108 for a battery of 6 .50's and a K-14 gunsight.

diomedes33
03-18-2005, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
If you think this weapon sucks you need to try the allied side again, fly in a P-40 on a 1943 map where you end up in 1v2 or more fights against 109's with their '****ty' 108's.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has been annoying me the whole thread.

You're comparing a 1/2 inch machinegun round to a 30 mm grenade. See how many times you can through a hand grenade on an airplanes wing and it keeps flying.

I use the MG151/20 loadout more times then I don't. I like the accuracy of the cannon, if they are a bit weak. I tore up an A-20 at 400m with about a 1/2 second burst in a FW-190A-8. Btw it surprised the h*ll out of me.

The only time I can hit anything with the 108 is if I'm right on their tail (<100m) or lucky.

JG54_Arnie
03-18-2005, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyingscampi:
@Arnie - I'm all for realism myself! I just think that the reason the MK108 is so popular is that most dogfight servers have unlimited ammo and that the LW machine guns and 20mm seem to need a long burst of accurate fire to cause any critical damage.

The good LW fliers can acheive this but amateurs like me who rarely get a target in the crosshairs are always going to be tempted by the 30mm to rack up a few points. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough if you are only talking about the dogfight servers with such settings, but I am talking about those with harder "realism" settings. GreaterGreen for example, great server with great missions, but thats where I got my "crowd grabs 108 for quick kills" experience from. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
But I also saw it on EasternHotshots (same settings as GG, but with bigger icon distances) when we were still hosting it, as soon as a 109 with 108's is available, everybody jumps in one and we had to keep asking people to switch sides.

Ofcourse, it is fun to do this so now and then, but to see it around you as constantly as always gets boring sometimes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG54_Arnie
03-18-2005, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
This has been annoying me the whole thread.

You're comparing a 1/2 inch machinegun round to a 30 mm grenade. See how many times you can through a hand grenade on an airplanes wing and it keeps flying. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not comparing them, nor did I say a .50 round should do the same as a 108 round, duh! This is not about comparing weapons, its about the use of the different weapons.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
I use the MG151/20 loadout more times then I don't. I like the accuracy of the cannon, if they are a bit weak. I tore up an A-20 at 400m with about a 1/2 second burst in a FW-190A-8. Btw it surprised the h*ll out of me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

diomedes33
03-18-2005, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
I'm not comparing them, nor did I say a .50 round should do the same as a 108 round, duh! This is not about comparing weapons, its about the use of the different weapons.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the problem is people taking 108s on the Bf-109G-6's? Most 190 guys I talk to bring the 108s because the 20s are weak and the American Planes can soak them up like a sponge and show little effect.

Other than that I don't see what the big deal is. The 108 is a devastating single hit weapon as it should be.

I would wager that if the mg151/20s are changed to be more on par with the Shvak and Hispanos you'll see less people using 108s.

Von_Rat
03-18-2005, 11:48 AM
exactly, if the mg151s worked right, why would anybody take the slow firing hi arc mk108. i wouldn't. and im real good with a mk108.

as for to powerfull, ive seen p51s and spits soak up mk108s, somtimes 5 or more of them.

as i said before ALL FIGHTER PLANES ARE TO TOUGH, except p47 and maybe fw.

Von_Rat
03-18-2005, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
"Mk108 is been given unrealistic accuracy, due to player complaint."

- Oleg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

can't somthing be done about people using the developers name in a fraudelant manner.

i realise its a joke because ive seen hayateace kinda of posts before. but other people may not realise it a joke.

NorrisMcWhirter
03-18-2005, 11:57 AM
^ Agreed. I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say it's a 1-shot-1-kill weapon as it normally takes 2-3 hits (or maybe more with P47).

I don't like to use the mk108s especially against fighters but you get a little fed up when you damage something with 20mms only to have someone turn up and take it down with 108s.

As to it being too accurate...I don't know - I find it a hit and miss affair like the P39 cannon.

I suppose that, if it is overmodelled, at least that brings it in line with allied guns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers
Norris

p1ngu666
03-18-2005, 12:09 PM
no, the quote of oleg maddox is correct http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

maybe not word for word, but oleg did do that...

F19_Olli72
03-18-2005, 12:10 PM
On GG all you see is blue team stacking the teams and 100% of blue flyers use mk108s. I think its hillarious when they claim to want realism in ORR http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

If the title of this thread got tested by the Mythbusters....it would be so busted! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

carguy_
03-18-2005, 12:28 PM
I also think using MK108 against fighters is hilarious.But MG151/20 forces to do sohttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Hristos
03-18-2005, 12:39 PM
Exactly !

MG151/20 is useless. Sure it is easy to hit with, but hits don't hurt other planes. Not only Experten need all the skill they can get to bring the MK108s on target, but they are forced to fly in contrast to history.

I fear that even if MG151/20 gets fixed, they will stick to the challenge of having to fight with MK108s on.

Von_Rat
03-18-2005, 12:46 PM
are you sure pingu666, do you have a link.

i know he said somthing like that about the 50 cal, i read that post myself. i haven't seen one that says that about mk108.

anyway if its not a exact quote it shouldn't be used. we all know that many of olegs posts read like chinese fortune cookies, and are subject to wide interpetation.

not that im any better, and english is my only langauge.

JG54_Arnie
03-18-2005, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
So the problem is people taking 108s on the Bf-109G-6's? Most 190 guys I talk to bring the 108s because the 20s are weak and the American Planes can soak them up like a sponge and show little effect.

Other than that I don't see what the big deal is. The 108 is a devastating single hit weapon as it should be.

I would wager that if the mg151/20s are changed to be more on par with the Shvak and Hispanos you'll see less people using 108s. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps, but its shouldnt be available as much as it is now as its being sort of abused. If you would want a server with more realistic environments, the 108 is one thing that would have to be limited, if only for the timespan in which is wasnt used, but in which the G6 already flew.
But I'd like to see mapmaking options where you can set the maximum amount of 109-G6 flying for example. Or allow the 108 loadout for only a few fighters and the bulk will have to take the 151/20.

And yes, that 151/20 is a little weak, but still capable of doing its job, plus its much more fun to use. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And ofcourse, I hope Oleg will fix the problem with them.

Badsight.
03-18-2005, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
it is a shame that the Mk108 has been undermoddeled for so long

i think ill go shoot myself <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>youd be doing the world a favour mate

Jagdklinger
03-18-2005, 04:13 PM
Could I ask what convergance all these 108 fans are using? I'm thinking the 109s single gun especially (as it's easier to hit with gunpods/multiple loadout). Does anyone score hits regularly beyond 200m? (My convergance is 150 as I am a fan of the 'cut them in halves'snapshot) But I'd be interested to see if anyone 'snipes' with them at longer ranges.

Some Fw190 pilots say they use 1000m convergance - would this mean they have to aim below the plane at say 150m? How does that work?

OldMan____
03-18-2005, 05:28 PM
Just my 2 cents.

many people here are talking bull@##$* !!

All blue got for bf 109 +Mk108.. LOL


For quite some time I've been tracking usage of blue planes in server I fly on. (mainly greatergreen). Whenever both 190 and 109 are available.. most of time you have more 190 flying than bf109.


If people can't speak the true about something so simple as plane distribution.. what about weapons? I pay quite som attention on it and barely 1/3 of LATE 190 uses Mk108.

And please. use your brain to discover why blu uses Mk108 so much!!

Example. In WC you have absolute most 109 with MK108.. because LATE LW 109 ONLY have mk108!!! Do you expect blue players to select an inferior plane just to use a weapon that red players don't dislike ? LOL! Give blue a K4 with a hispano and you will see NO ONE using mk108!! Be sure of it!!

All blue guys hate hispanos too.. so lets make a deal.. no hispanos anymore also? Does any red agree?


If G10 and G14 had mg 151 we would have a larger ammount of non mk108 flyers than we do now. A decent Mg 151/20 damage would help too. But we dont have it! So face it! bf109 guys will use mk108 and there is nothing anyone can do about it!! FW 190 guys use mk108 in a quite reasonable rate (best FWs can use it.. like A4 and D9)


I really hate mk108 myself.. I usually can hit at 350-400 m range with my mg151.. and that is the range I fire. With mk108 I need to get at least to 200 meters... that means twice the time buggin behind an enemy.



It takes lees skill to kill with a Mk108.. maybe.. but it takes even LESS skill to come here and start complaining because you want to have all advantages of world.

p1ngu666
03-18-2005, 06:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
are you sure pingu666, do you have a link.

i know he said somthing like that about the 50 cal, i read that post myself. i haven't seen one that says that about mk108.

anyway if its not a exact quote it shouldn't be used. we all know that many of olegs posts read like chinese fortune cookies, and are subject to wide interpetation.

not that im any better, and english is my only langauge. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dont im afraid, think it was a quote from back in the day. think theres a couple

made it too acurate, made it damage 5% more than it should, and reduced a russian 37mm down 5%. i also remmber oleg said something vaguly recently about every "ace" whineing about ki84c, and what do they fly 109 k4...

Von_Rat
03-18-2005, 06:02 PM
i dunno it sure sounds like what he said about 50 cal.

p1ngu666
03-18-2005, 06:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristos:
Exactly !

MG151/20 is useless. Sure it is easy to hit with, but hits don't hurt other planes. Not only Experten need all the skill they can get to bring the MK108s on target, but they are forced to fly in contrast to history.

I fear that even if MG151/20 gets fixed, they will stick to the challenge of having to fight with MK108s on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

perhaps your allergic to piss poor ballistics?
theres not much difference to gettin mk108 on target compaired to a 20mm...

p1ngu666
03-18-2005, 06:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
i dunno it sure sounds like what he said about 50 cal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

indeed, but he did say it about 50cal AND mk108

p1ngu666
03-18-2005, 06:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
Just my 2 cents.

many people here are talking bull@##$* !!

All blue got for bf 109 +Mk108.. LOL


For quite some time I've been tracking usage of blue planes in server I fly on. (mainly greatergreen). Whenever both 190 and 109 are available.. most of time you have more 190 flying than bf109.


If people can't speak the true about something so simple as plane distribution.. what about weapons? I pay quite som attention on it and barely 1/3 of LATE 190 uses Mk108.

And please. use your brain to discover why blu uses Mk108 so much!!

Example. In WC you have absolute most 109 with MK108.. because LATE LW 109 ONLY have mk108!!! Do you expect blue players to select an inferior plane just to use a weapon that red players don't dislike ? LOL! Give blue a K4 with a hispano and you will see NO ONE using mk108!! Be sure of it!!

All blue guys hate hispanos too.. so lets make a deal.. no hispanos anymore also? Does any red agree?


If G10 and G14 had mg 151 we would have a larger ammount of non mk108 flyers than we do now. A decent Mg 151/20 damage would help too. But we dont have it! So face it! bf109 guys will use mk108 and there is nothing anyone can do about it!! FW 190 guys use mk108 in a quite reasonable rate (best FWs can use it.. like A4 and D9)


I really hate mk108 myself.. I usually can hit at 350-400 m range with my mg151.. and that is the range I fire. With mk108 I need to get at least to 200 meters... that means twice the time buggin behind an enemy.



It takes lees skill to kill with a Mk108.. maybe.. but it takes even LESS skill to come here and start complaining because you want to have all advantages of world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, alot who fly g6as take mk108, while yes late 109's are stuck with mk108.
actully ive flown g6 or g6late, and done surprisingly well with it (takeing 20mm), even managed to chop megiles spitfire in half http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
thats where the quote in sig is from http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

imo, ppl take mk108 because its WAY more powerful than 20mm (any 20mm), and cos mg151 is abit underpowered, its a more noticeable difference. also mg151 missing mine shell isnt always a bad thing, sometimes the tighter spread of 2 types of rounds will help, and the explosive round we have now, well that might be just the round u need sometimes.

ppl who fly red and blue, say mg151 still works, ppl who fly blue near exclusivly think it hardly works.

ive also decided not to fly with mk108 anymore http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

oldman, on the servers i fly at, its very rare for someone to take mg151 over mk108

MEGILE
03-18-2005, 06:23 PM
Did some testing offline in various planes...
I had enough ammo in the FW-190D9 to shoot down 8 Spitfire IXe... probably could have done more if I was more precise. The 20mm on the D9 seem weaker than the Hispanos, but not by an excessive amount, which I'm told is realistic.
As for MK108? Generally its 1 shot 1 kill and the plane will disintegrate. Sometimes the plane won't fall apart after 1 hit, but you will give it fuel leaks, oil leaks, and take the plane out of the fight. The second MK108 will 99% explode the plane.

This is offline though.. online realy isn't good for testing gun strengths, with lag + packet loss etc.
Ever notice how your guns seem more effective if you have a really low ping to the server? I do..

Flying on a LAN seems like flying offline.

NorrisMcWhirter
03-18-2005, 06:49 PM
8 spitifires?

bollocks

norris

carguy_
03-18-2005, 07:12 PM
Yeah well I do qmb very often and I need an average of 3 shells hit to down a fighter.

Don`t remember making a plane explode with LW weapons online or offline.Mostly I hit wingtips and elevators-little black stains appear on the whereas they should be blown off completely.

Nah,enemies explode lots of times when the wing guns converge on the engine but I don`t take gunpods against fighters anyways.

Very iritating when I hit a plane so it smokes and has holes but turns around and busts me friends.A little different from what allied crowd speak of two 20mm hit crippled planes.

A single Hispano on the P38 shows very nicely the difference from MG151/20.


I had been hit by some friendly LW pilots on some sorties.Two times I had been hit with MK108 I almost LMAOed,my Me109 caughted up some oil and continued flying.

Nah,not even a direct 70deg direct cockpit hit doesn`t do its job nowadays.

LBR_W.Zellot
03-18-2005, 08:17 PM
Oldman said it all...

First of all, G-14, G10 and K4 do not have the 20mm option.
Second of all, the 20mm has no minengeschoss rounds, something that became more pronouciated after Oleg made overall structural failures harder to achieve on all of the aircrafts.
Last, but not least, later and subsequently more armored aircraft(Yak-3, La-7, P-51D, Spit Mk9 and P-47) can receive more hits from 20mm and still fly on.

I sometimes feel that the 20mm on the Fw190 is worse than the 20mm on the 109, and I realised it's due to the fact that they have convergence settings, while the 109 will hit straight on.

What is the belt composition of the Ki-84 20mm? It's sure more powerful than the MG151/20, adn they had no minengeschoss...

drose01
03-18-2005, 10:15 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by carguy_:
Don`t remember making a plane explode with LW weapons online or offline.

Multiple times in online games I have been completely vaporized while in a Spit or P-51: flying untouched one minute, then BOOM!!!
Instantaneous fireball.

I assume that this is the 108 in action.

Just for fun, I made an offline mission with 4 Il-2s flying in formation as I attack from behind in a 109k with 108 pods. Lets just say that the sky was shortly strewn with detached wings and fireballs.

JG54_Arnie
03-19-2005, 01:53 AM
Interesting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well, I managed to shoot down 16 P-39 in a QMB fight with one loadout in the A6, and I had ammo to spare, I dont find it hard to believe Megile shot down 8 spitfires with the dora, if you cant do that with spending all your ammo you need practise pretty bad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oldman, its kinda weird you say that you see something totaly different, since we seem to fly on the same server? Are you in America? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe the difference in what is being used on the server is a geographical problem. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif All europeans use the 108, but all Americans prefer the 151/20? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Then, ofcourse, I know late war planes only have the 108, but most mission in GG are in 43/42 where the 108 is also available for the LW and its way overpowered against the planeset the allies can bring to the field.

Plus, I'm not complaining about it because I get shot down by them all the time, or that I want all the advantages in the world. Just looking for a better online experience http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif For all of us, seeing both sides of the picture a little bit.

Hristos
03-19-2005, 02:53 AM
Just today I found another benefit of MK108.

While flying MG151/20 armed Fw 190, I fought and shot up a P63. Just before he would die, the red punk disconnected on me.

If I had Mk108s, he would be long desitegrated before he could even think of pressing that button.

Bottom line is - expect no quarter and give none. Allow enemy plane a chance and he will use it, come around and shoot you. Now enter Mk108.

Nubarus
03-19-2005, 04:19 AM
Trolling and fishing in progress.

Big fat yawn.

MEGILE
03-19-2005, 04:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
8 spitifires?

bollocks

norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite right Norris, it was rather poor shooting.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Well, I managed to shoot down 16 P-39 in a QMB fight with one loadout in the A6, and I had ammo to spare, I dont find it hard to believe Megile shot down 8 spitfires with the dora, if you cant do that with spending all your ammo you need practise pretty bad. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Be sure this is true, I am no sniper. It depends where you hit them... shots at convergeance in the wing will saw it off with one burst. But generally my shots weren't in the wing.
8 is poor be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Next time I will strive to do better http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Hristos
03-19-2005, 04:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:


Next time I will strive to do better http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once you get real good, you can try the Mk108. Much harder to hit, takes an Experte http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Nubarus
03-19-2005, 04:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
8 spitifires?

bollocks

norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO, if NorrisMcWhiner cannot do it it's bollocks.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
03-19-2005, 04:54 AM
Actually no, I didn't notice that he said it was in QMB (probably due to the number of pints I'd had).

If they were dumb AI (even at ace), I can well believe it.

Pardon my misunderstanding there, Megile.

Cheers,
Norris

Von_Rat
03-19-2005, 10:27 PM
pingu666 wrote

ppl who fly red and blue, say mg151 still works, ppl who fly blue near exclusivly think it hardly works.

_______________________________________________

i fly red quite abit,,, about 25% of my kills on warclouds before stat reset were flying red. mg151 sucks. .50 are better and hispanos are terriffic.

flying a p51 is like flying a dora with great view and GUNS THAT WORK.

TX-Zen
03-20-2005, 12:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
Could I ask what convergance all these 108 fans are using? I'm thinking the 109s single gun especially (as it's easier to hit with gunpods/multiple loadout). Does anyone score hits regularly beyond 200m? (My convergance is 150 as I am a fan of the 'cut them in halves'snapshot) But I'd be interested to see if anyone 'snipes' with them at longer ranges.

Some Fw190 pilots say they use 1000m convergance - would this mean they have to aim below the plane at say 150m? How does that work? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use 1000m convergeance for all guns but even at 150m you still have to aim slightly high. If I fly the TA152 I will fire only at point blank, naturally the 108 is remarkably accurate at 100m or less. It's difficult to catch a target directly at convergeance, so instead I just get in point blank to shoot. What I found is that with 1000m convergeance, shots fire nearly straight out which gives a better chance to hit at such close ranges, plus it helps considerable for steady head on shooting as well as strafing ground targets. Anything less than 1000m makes it more difficult for anything other than air to air shooting, but the nature of scripted missions means that often enough you will do something other than just dogfight. It's bothersome for me to change my arming screen options depending on what I am intending to do that sortie and really bothersome to have things set for one thing only to run into something else, so I ended up just setting 1000m and leaving it alone.

On another note, there is no question in my mind that the 151/20's are poor performers. They are short range, have high arc and do little damage unless 4-5 shells hit the same area in the same burst. They also don't seem to have a cumulative damage effect...hitting a target 5 times one shot at a time across the whole airframe doesn't seem to have nearly the same chance to take a plane down when compared to 5 random hits from a Hispano. I simply take it for granted that I will rarely get 1 pass kills, especially against a manuevering enemy who presents only a tough deflection shot. Single hits to wing areas rarely impose any manuever penalty on the target and this effectively means that one must make repeated passes to get the job done.

There is also no question in my mind that if the 151/20's performed similar to the Hispano that not only would more people fly the 190, but the reliance on the 108 would drop considerably. People don't take big guns because they're big, they take them because they want to kill other planes and hence they use whatever is easiest or whatever is uber. Look at the infamous Yak9K and the P39 armed with the 37mm...why don't we see them in mass numbers anymore? Oddly enough they used to dominate servers back when big guns were easy to hit with, only now they aren't nearly so easy and so you simply don't see them anymore. Coincidence? Hardly. Big gun ballistics have been towned down and so the uber factor is nearly gone and as usual the crowd migrates along to whatever works best.

This is something I sincerely hope will be addressed in BoB, by all accounts I've read the 151/20 should end up close to the Hispano in overall effectiveness, but we simply don't see that in game currently. The 151/20s do get the job done, but it takes patience, steady aim and a gift for deflection shooting. It is by far one of the hardest weapons to score a kill with and just one more thing that can be frustrating for FW pilots to deal with.

At least the good news is that if you shoot someone down with a D9, there is no question as to why because there is simply nothing else but the pilot that it can be blamed on.

DarthBane_
03-20-2005, 06:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Take an inferior pilot, some Spit driver for example <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oooh. You're asking for it buddy, outside right now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The spit drivers are truly the bottom, the low end pilots. If there are **** planes then they are the **** pilots.

Nubarus
03-20-2005, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarthBane_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Take an inferior pilot, some Spit driver for example <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oooh. You're asking for it buddy, outside right now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The spit drivers are truly the bottom, the low end pilots. If there are **** planes then they are the **** pilots. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

High horse bull, as usual.

So far nothing new has been said in this thread that hasn't been posted over and over before by the very same people like a broken record.

ploughman
03-20-2005, 07:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The spit drivers are truly the bottom, the low end pilots. If there are **** planes then they are the **** pilots. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Darthane, I'm so glad I'll never have to meet you in person. You let yourself down there buddy.

p1ngu666
03-20-2005, 07:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
pingu666 wrote

ppl who fly red and blue, say mg151 still works, ppl who fly blue near exclusivly think it hardly works.

_______________________________________________

i fly red quite abit,,, about 25% of my kills on warclouds before stat reset were flying red. mg151 sucks. .50 are better and hispanos are terriffic.

flying a p51 is like flying a dora with great view and GUNS THAT WORK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i still get kills with mg151, but maybe its the 2 12.7mm on the g6 that does it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif