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View Full Version : Problems that have been around from versions Pre-4.05!



MAILMAN------
05-08-2006, 07:08 PM
My questions are in regards to bug fixes and flight model corrections that occured prior to version 4.05 ADD ON and is directed to OLEG, if he even reads these anymore.

If a fix becomes available for example regarding a bug or correction to a flight model or weapons innaccuracy or graphics or sound will the fixes only be made available to those of us who purchased the game and are running version 4.04 stand alone and/or merged installations? If so would this be in the form of a patch or file editting such as copy and paste a particular line or lines to particular location?

One example is that the F4U-1D never indicates a full gas tank when 100% fuel was selected and not even with extenal tanks added. The other versions of the F4U do not have this problem and indicate correctly (Didn't check the Corsair IV.) The gage reads correctlly at 25%, 50% and 75%. Print screens of each cockpit and fuel selection for all of the F4U's were sent to the PF@1C.ru many many many months ago. There are other issues, but this is not the thread for that.

How about it OLEG? Are we going to get product fixes? These are questions from a paying customer, like many others, who has purchased IL2, FB, AEP and PF.

crazyivan1970
05-08-2006, 07:55 PM
Why so many ppl are upset lately all of a sudden http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MAILMAN------
05-09-2006, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Why so many ppl are upset lately all of a sudden http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

How did upset get derived out of the post that started this thread?
It is a simple question that I think deserves an answer from either Oleg, since this is the Oleg Ready Room, or someone who directly represents him.
If and when a fix is made to a bug or a feature(s) that was in the original retail version or subsequent corrections/patches that occurred from v4.04 and earlier, will a patch or file editing corrections be made available for these identified problems only?

lbhskier37
05-10-2006, 05:06 AM
Support is dropped for old versions of game, just like always. If you think you are being treated unfairly go buy CFS3 and ask Microsoft for patches to fix bugs that shipped with the game.

WWMaxGunz
05-10-2006, 08:52 AM
Considering that most changes occur in SFS files and take a long time to make, verify and go
through the debug process then what you say would mean a seperate continual development for
every product they have made even if sometimes it is the same basic fix.

Intel and AMD should also go back and fix the minor bugs of all CPU's at least to 486's.

MAILMAN------
05-10-2006, 07:27 PM
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Man when did Oleg changed his name.</span>


Originally posted by lbhskier37:
Support is dropped for old versions of game, just like always. If you think you are being treated unfairly go buy CFS3 and ask Microsoft for patches to fix bugs that shipped with the game.


Stick to this product in the discussion. The way Microsoft arrogantly treats its customers is the comparison you use to support your argument justifying dropping customer support for a purchased product? Oh yea I forgot that in this day and age two wrongs do make a right.


Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Considering that most changes occur in SFS files and take a long time to make, verify and go
through the debug process then what you say would mean a seperate continual development for
every product they have made even if sometimes it is the same basic fix.

Intel and AMD should also go back and fix the minor bugs of all CPU's at least to 486's.



You are making Excuses for them!!!!! Let them come in here and defend their decisions instead of relying on surrogates, like the two of you, to do it for them. In my view quality is much more desireous than quantity. Hold off on new features until the the old features work without flaw. There is a saying in the Navy "One aww $xx! wipes out 10 attaboys."

Human beings make mistakes, it is inevitable. People are on the payroll for quality control. Hold them responsible and make them accountable if they miss these items in the reviews. Do right by the customer and fix the mistakes before you move on. Nobody would think any less of them. Most would applaud the effort. Business philosophy used to be "The customer is always right" or "I will make the customer happy."

I am not asking them to go back and fix items in IL2 Sturmovik nor Il2 Forgotten Battles and the Aces Expansion Pack. I am asking them to fix their retail version of Pacific Fighters. It has gone from v3.0 to v4.04 without the issues being fixed. Now we are required to pay for v4.05m and beyond and there is no assurance that the flaws will be addressed even then in the merged version let alone the stand alone version.

What you call seperate development I call fix what you left out or screwed up. Own your mistakes and swallow the cost of fixing them, that is the price of doing business.

I could just see myself screwing up by leaving out a feature included on the blueprints for building a house and telling the homeowner he or she has to pay extra money for my neglect because I did the rest of the house correctly and I now need to move on to the next jobsite. I would have to eat the extra cost of correcting my misake or I would have a lawsuit filed against me before I left the premises in addition to a ruined reputation to future customers.

MucusG
05-10-2006, 09:33 PM
Mailman, I agree in principle with you. I dont really care if a fuel gauge reads wrong (I dont live long enough to run out of fuel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) and I dont expect it to be fixed EVER.

The part that I agree completely with you about is the way it is completly normal and acceptable for software to be released that is not functional as advertised. This point is not releating to this sim (which seems to be very well supported/stable) but is a comment of software in general.

If a supplier of anything else in my life failed to deliver on what it was stated to do then I wouldnt pay/would expect my money back and I would be on the legal high ground. Software is for some reason different. I have never understood this. Sure its complex but so is a 747 and I expcet that to work each time I get on one, not to receive a spare part (patch) when the engine is on fire.

I do think that th IL2 series is a very high quality product as far as software goes. Is it perfect - no. Is it the best - YES

-HH-Quazi
05-11-2006, 12:53 PM
From what I understand, support for 4.04 has ended. It is what it is. That is not to say that this fuel guage fix for the Corsair will not be addressed in the next two paid addons as support should continue until the last addon\patch is released for the paid versions. Of course whether it is address and a fix supplied is totally dependent on their descision to, or not to, do so.

WWMaxGunz
05-11-2006, 08:50 PM
I'd like to see MAILMAN go back and redo an entire corner or end of a house because the
new owner felt that the walls were not perfectly square within 1 cm or some other nit
pick.

There are minor imperfections with every COMPLEX product ever made. If the problem is
not causing the product to be unusable to some real degree then that's the way it is.

Here's a saying, it only takes one a-hole to ruin a party.

IL2 wasn't just so, neither was FB or PF. Someone tells you compare to CFS and you miss
the point entirely that CFS got less than 10% of the support that what you're whining
about did.

MAILMAN------
05-15-2006, 06:02 PM
That is why owners hire attorneys, and not only do you have to fix the problem you end up paying an amount equal to the cost of the owner's attorney. Additionally as a payback the owner can try to get your license suspended or revoked as part of a settlement so it pays to do it right the first time or or at the very least fix the mistake when it is discovered, regardless of whether you or I consider it picky. As the Fram Oil Filter commercial used to say, "Pay me now or pay me later". Either case you fix what you screw up. When someone pays several hundred thousand dollars for a house nothing is too picky.

Seems to me WWMaxGunz is the HOST of the party.

I didn't miss the point of the CFS series, so you can climb down from that soap box of yours. I agreed it was lousy customer support. This sim's customer support is better (remember IT is being compared to the CFS Series) so that is not saying much, but it pale's to what the older original combat type of flight simulators had for customer support for both offline and online play. The games may have been crude technically compared to today, but were cutting edge in their day and I don't recall ever not having a question answered regardless of whether I agreed with the answer or not. The developers and customer support people made themselves accessible to their customers.

The point is they have known of certain problems for long periods of time, the fuel gage issue was just one example. They should have addressed the problem when it was correctly pointed out or fixed it while they made new patches. Another quick example or two is the early US insignia that has the light blue background where the white star points are out past the blue border when markings are enabled for certain US planes (USN,USMC,USAAF) like the P-39 or F4U-1 (birdcage, Corsair I) where as the correct early US insignia was a dark blue circle with white star as what shows up on the P-400. The NGEN campaigns do not work correctly uneless you spend some time tyring to figure out how to tweak it to get some of its basic features/choices to work.
I am just not ready to give these guys a free pass on their mistakes or customer service like some others are willing to do just by comparing it to another company's lousy support. So I guess I just respectfully disagree with some people on the issue. I guess we may as well agree to disagree and just leave it at that.

Once again the simple question remains unanswered and what answers are being given in this thread as difinitive are not coming from the horse's mouth so to speak.

WWMaxGunz
05-16-2006, 04:32 AM
Considering which end of a mule the thread started from you ain't worth pointing realities
out to.

IL2-chuter
07-10-2006, 04:57 AM
I agree with mailman . . . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


I think Oleg can speak for himself. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


I have always wondered how so much detail could be claimed for flight models and yet things as simple as pitot tubes and markings could be so wrong. The fuel gage thing should be an easy fix, eh?

That said, we're lucky to have what we do.

Wingstrut_1
07-10-2006, 06:22 AM
add to that completly unflyable unstable P-51B/C.

lbhskier37
07-10-2006, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Wingstrut_1:
add to that completly unflyable unstable P-51B/C.

I really am not sure what P51 others have in this game, because in the game I have the P51 and Corsair which by reading these forums is probably the second most "unflyable unstable" aircraft in the game, are two of the most fun to fly and nice handling aircraft.

JG52Karaya-X
07-10-2006, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by MAILMAN------:
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Man when did Oleg changed his name.</span>

Nice going http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif


I could just see myself screwing up by leaving out a feature included on the blueprints for building a house and telling the homeowner he or she has to pay extra money for my neglect because I did the rest of the house correctly and I now need to move on to the next jobsite. I would have to eat the extra cost of correcting my misake or I would have a lawsuit filed against me before I left the premises in addition to a ruined reputation to future customers.

Basically Oleg ONLY has to fix bugs that make the sim unplayable or unstable - something like a memory leak, incompatibility issue, ...
A non-working gauge hardly renders the program unusable. It might be annoying for you but why don't you calm down and enjoy the rest.

And considering that Oleg and crew gave us numerous FREE(!!) addons with new flyable planes, maps, objects, campaigns, and a completely new FM doesn't leave the impression of bad support to me.

Chef-Scott
07-10-2006, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by MAILMAN------:
That is why owners hire attorneys...

And that is why software companies have EULA's
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

JFC_Rautaristi
07-10-2006, 08:41 AM
I once made a test with my friend to see if the problem is the gauge or fuel quantity. We used AI F4U-1A 100% and F4U-1D 100% fuel at 300km/h cruise. The -1D model ran out of fuel well before -1A.

In the end, however, the test is far from concrete proof. the AI might have different fuel usage model than a human pilot, and a lot better management...

I would also like to point out that the problem wasn't there in the beginning, but was introduced in 4.01. And in is in both F4U-1D and corsair mk. IV

zaelu
07-10-2006, 08:48 AM
I can't remember reading in the EULA that you can demand for fixes and answers in this forums.

Yes I know is Olegs Ready Room...

If something is realy bothering you and you want to ask something from the devs why don't you mail them? Or sue them? Do you think users from this forum has some obligation to support your opinion?

If a user with the name Oleg Maddox responds to your question is that make you happy? maibe is his secretary...

Support for old products get droped... live with it.

... next somebody will come and say the neck of the pilot is too stiff and needs to be fixed... at once... or else.

PS Do you know IAR 80 has no adjustable in flight rudder trim? Well... lucky me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

DuxCorvan
07-10-2006, 02:02 PM
I was about to fully read this thread, but I prefer to have sex instead.

MAILMAN------
07-11-2006, 05:21 AM
"JFC_Rautaristi

Posted Mon July 10 2006 07:41
I once made a test with my friend to see if the problem is the gauge or fuel quantity. We used AI F4U-1A 100% and F4U-1D 100% fuel at 300km/h cruise. The -1D model ran out of fuel well before -1A.

In the end, however, the test is far from concrete proof. the AI might have different fuel usage model than a human pilot, and a lot better management...

I would also like to point out that the problem wasn't there in the beginning, but was introduced in 4.01. And in is in both F4U-1D and corsair mk. IV"

That would make sense seeing as the fuel gage in the F4U-1D & Corsair MkIV indicate a maximum of 75% or there about even though you select 100% and/or select external fuel tanks.
This indication problem does not exist in the other Corsair versions including the F4U-1C.

LEBillfish
07-11-2006, 10:00 AM
These threads are getting so very tiresome simply due to the "you owe me and will be my eternal slave" aspect BESIDES the obvious "you will forever support me, though I have abandoned you" attitude........Most of all in how truly unreasonable they are, the actual goal clear.

We all, well anyone who takes 2 seconds to think about it must realize that no matter how perfect the sim might be, there will always be those that "disagree" with this that or the other thing. In the end that essentially means based on the logic above, that Maddox Games would have to either be a life long slave to the current outdated sim......Or.....eventually have to do what it has done.

The sim can never be "perfect" to all....If not some disagreement of aircraft facts then it will be that it is not up to date with graphics, or hardware, etc..

What makes such threads REDICULOUSLY unreasonable however is, that it is clearly stated "I refuse to stay devoted to you (as in progressing with the add-ons), yet demand you stay devoted to me though I have ended our even/fair relationship with 4.04".

Will fixes come in later versions?....Possibly.
Can all the little errors and/or plane/sim performance and/or hardware related issues ever be resolved to everyones liking?....Nope.
Is Maddox Games obligated to fix them?.....Nope.
Is there a possible solution?......YES!

The solution is, if there was an older version that did not have the bugs an individual see's in 4.04, they can always go back to it.....

However, if an individual has stated they refuse to advance past 4.04, then it is impossible to supply them with a fix for anything..........We all know the real point of this though don't we, as we all know how unreasonable the request is to build 10+ versions of the same fixes, that simply leading to demands for more.....The real point to "give" all subsequent versions away, then a fix to come whenever is fine....

I personally hope that never happens.....Stick with them to advance, or choose to cease your advancement at any point you want. Yet in the end "we each" have chosen at what point Maddox Games support to us ends......Not the other way around as has been proven for years now.

Targ
07-11-2006, 07:09 PM
Well, I had never really noticed to tell you the truth but if it is than ya it would be nice to have it fixed.
What I dont understand is why you are so upset about it.
It's pretty low on the priority list ya know with BoB coming out within a year or so.
To say Maddox games has poor customer service though is a farce and shows how ill informed you are.
I have never seen better customer service from any software company.
The passion that Oleg Maddox has for his product is amazing and his continued support of this game since 2001 is amazing.
Using your logic (IL2 as a house) than Maddox games free of charge built a pool, guest house a new 5 car garage and an extra level adding 1200 sq feet to the original house for free.
You are unhappy becouse a faucet drips in the guest bathroom and telling everyone not to buy a house from him as you were ripped off.

MAILMAN------
07-11-2006, 10:05 PM
Hey for all I care this thread can be deleted/removed. I was finished with it in May. My mistake was somehow checking the box to be notified of responses.

And since I was notified of a response my sole purpose of my last reply was to shed some light on why possibly the F4U-1D / Corsair MkIV ran out of fuel before the the F4U-1A when JFC_Rautaristi did his tests.

People who get tired of reading these types of posts or threads should follow their instincts and not read them then. Notifications are off so I won't have any reason to be checking back here.

WWMaxGunz
07-12-2006, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by MAILMAN------:
That is why owners hire attorneys, and not only do you have to fix the problem you end up paying an amount equal to the cost of the owner's attorney. Additionally as a payback the owner can try to get your license suspended or revoked as part of a settlement so it pays to do it right the first time or or at the very least fix the mistake when it is discovered, regardless of whether you or I consider it picky. As the Fram Oil Filter commercial used to say, "Pay me now or pay me later". Either case you fix what you screw up. When someone pays several hundred thousand dollars for a house nothing is too picky.

Seems to me WWMaxGunz is the HOST of the party.



No, this is YOUR party and you don't want anyone crashing it. Besides, I don't like your
handling of the metaphor. It's not direct to the situation. Fix it please right now.
And don't just reply, oh no! You have to go and redo every post you made in this thread.
If anyone changes their post then you have to change your responses even a year later.
By your light I believe this is reasonable and no excuses!

Yeah, I can see a judge having a house redone for extremely minor imperfections... NOT!
If you were smarter then you'd point out that building tolerances are printed right on
the blueprints but I guess that's what they pay the guys with the brains to know.

Compare this product to industry standard under $50 PC flight sims and if the guages on
your pick are always correct then we look at the FM and other less visible areas and
that's why for example that CFS4 was dropped, not enough people want CFS4 or even CFS3.

As for the guage... maybe it is wrong but I've seen other fuel guage threads where son of
a gun Oleg was right and that guage only read for the last tank. In that case and the
F4U-1D is it possible to run out of fuel without seeing the needle drop?

Funny but when I attended systems training the pilots there were not so hot on fuel
guages. The things are not accurate, the reading changes as fuel moves around in the
tanks when the plane tilts at all. If the needle reads really low then you may have a
problem. That is why they check the tanks before taking off by looking in the hole
you put the fuel nozzle in. That is why they are very careful to know how much fuel
by weight went into the plane and they keep track of time and engine settings while
flying. The guage is good to have if you have a leak but that's the other end than
full you care about. So is this a critical problem if it's a problem at all?

If Oleg spent an entire YEAR just answering complaints and questions to tell of every
little detail in the sim that someone or other did not like or agree with then he would
only be beginning the task. Especially here with the people who won't take anything
but what they want to hear. And be sure there would be a list of things to change, most
very small to miniscule, enough to keep a team busy for another year for zero pay.

A sim to your expectations would run at least $20 per plane unless you decide to get
picky on FM and DM and other internals. Then multiply by at least 5 unless very few
people actually buy the thing. And I can give you an idea of what state of the art,
everything just so costed back about 1987. State of the art was full motion boxes on
hydraulic stilts with a full cockpit inside and I can tell you that every guage, light
and button reacted perfectly. What you saw out the windows was night and lights and
very little else (runway was lit, I won't say how the scene was made). And the box
did not fly exactly true to real as it would only tilt so far and never generated more
than a fraction of a G. Good enough for commercial jet training but I can hear the
whine... take it back and give me one that turns upside down and can pull 15 G's!
What did such a box cost back then? FIVE MILLION BUCKS. And for that you could not
roll upside down even though the view outside would.

Now strip out the box itself and the instruments and put them all on a PC screen but get
every working detail down just right and in 1987 dollars you are still talking over a
million easy and that only after selling a lot of licensed copies.

Tell you what. Build me one of those great houses for 10 grand but every detail just
so exactly as good as a $500,000 house and I'll back you up.

LEBillfish
07-12-2006, 07:59 AM
Sadly in contrast to the suggestion to simply "not read such threads", one is somewhat forced to, to try and insure the sim keeps rolling along advancing......

Now that may sound as though I have some belief that I have some authority.....Yet in actuallity it is simply a responsibility to the sim I love to fly and its continued "positive" growth.

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease...he who shouts the loudest wins...the vocal minority" etc., whatever.........We have a number of folks here who will scream and shout, deliberately trying to stir up those either new to the sim, ignorant to the topic, or simply enjoying the drama of causing trouble. Now that would not be a problem if Maddox Games would simply ignore it........Yet they don't, as they have proven to me long ago they really care what the customer thinks.

So, though YOU claim they don't appear and directly respond to YOU as though Emperor they at your beckon call.....I say you're wrong in that they do often not in simple soothing text yet action.........That action taking them away from the important tasks at hand, asked for responsibly by those supporting the sim, with the only intent of bettering the sim as they "are here".

Are some complaints valid?.....yep. Are many not?.....Yep. Are many simply meant to try and rile up the masses so the initiator can unjustly get something they want for no rhyme or reason?...Absolutly.

So call me "fangoil".....Or a Maddox games kiss azz....or anything you want. Yet being this is a sim I support and wish to do well in all regards within reason, I'll continue to responsibly stick my nose in where "I" think it's needed............

You may have been gone for 2 months long ago abandoning the sim due to some pouty "I don't wanna pay for what I demanded long ago".....Yet I'm still here and a part of this community.

Guess what?...............At that point only my opinion counts. I win, you lose, 2 months running.

VW-IceFire
07-13-2006, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by MAILMAN------:
My questions are in regards to bug fixes and flight model corrections that occured prior to version 4.05 ADD ON and is directed to OLEG, if he even reads these anymore.

If a fix becomes available for example regarding a bug or correction to a flight model or weapons innaccuracy or graphics or sound will the fixes only be made available to those of us who purchased the game and are running version 4.04 stand alone and/or merged installations? If so would this be in the form of a patch or file editting such as copy and paste a particular line or lines to particular location?

One example is that the F4U-1D never indicates a full gas tank when 100% fuel was selected and not even with extenal tanks added. The other versions of the F4U do not have this problem and indicate correctly (Didn't check the Corsair IV.) The gage reads correctlly at 25%, 50% and 75%. Print screens of each cockpit and fuel selection for all of the F4U's were sent to the PF@1C.ru many many many months ago. There are other issues, but this is not the thread for that.

How about it OLEG? Are we going to get product fixes? These are questions from a paying customer, like many others, who has purchased IL2, FB, AEP and PF.
Support for pre 4.05m has pretty much ended. From PF we got fixes from 3.01 through 4.04...several patches worth of fixes. Not sure if they fixed the Corsair fuel tank bug in 4.05 or not but everyone got lots of fixes and new stuff for free. Should the guys who played IL-2 complain that Forgotten Battles fixed things but they shouldn't have to pay for it? Should the guys who have Forgotten Battles but not Ace Expansion Pack complain about the fixes in AEP that were not part of Forgotten Battles? Should the folks who bought FB and AEP but not Pacific Fighters complain that Pacific Fighters fixes all sorts of things (the muzzle flash thing was huge for Pacific Fighters) but they shouldn't have to pay for that?

We've always paid for fixes or enhancements or addons and there is nothing wrong with that. Not when its part of a new product that adds a whole bunch of other things and also boasts new and improved features. Thats how it goes. Certain things like the game crashing and having known software bugs are another matter...publishers/developers tend to release fixes for those sorts of things. Gameplay enhancements are another story altogether.

Its the economics of the situation. Its not something you should be railing against unless you want to rail against the whole capitalistic system in which case feel free...but then at least we're being honest about it.

WWMaxGunz
07-13-2006, 05:20 PM
So strange that the sim runs on an OS that you have to keep buying new versions (called
upgrades sometimes) to get fixes for but never, ever is everything right. Same company
made the OS that made the competing combat flight sim and as bad as that sucked they did
not fix every last problem with it. In fact, they ended the product line so the users
of that one can't even buy fixes through a next version.

IMO there's a lot of CFS people who will take cheap shots and blow little things up all
over the web to make Maddox Games look bad.

Well, take Winblows Any Version as The Standard and measure the IL2 Series by that.
What I get is that Maddox Games has delivered many times over on value and we have
a FAR BETTER product from them than we would ever get from the Empire of Gates.

Maybe MAILMAN really builds Ivory Towers?

Treetop64
07-13-2006, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by MAILMAN------:
The point is they have known of certain problems for long periods of time, the fuel gage issue was just one example. They should have addressed the problem when it was correctly pointed out or fixed it while they made new patches. Another quick example or two is the early US insignia that has the light blue background where the white star points are out past the blue border when markings are enabled for certain US planes (USN,USMC,USAAF) like the P-39 or F4U-1 (birdcage, Corsair I) where as the correct early US insignia was a dark blue circle with white star as what shows up on the P-400.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

MAILMAN must really be a BARBER, because this dood really knows how to split hairs...

Col_Tibbetts
07-17-2006, 11:04 PM
It never ceases to amaze me the zealous devotion people have to Oleg and this sim. Jim Jones would be proud! Cool aid anyone?

Yes I know I said that in another thread but it is so true. I really should make it my sig.

Anyway, lets make this real simple folks. How about a little "All I need to know about life I learned in Kindergarten" philosopy.

Oleg made a toy.
He sold me this toy so now it is my toy.
He didn't give it to me or lend it to me, he SOLD it to me.
Therefore it is now MY toy.
Oleg, with the best of intentions, broke my toy when he patched it and ruined the AI.
My mommy taught me that if break someone's toy I am obligated to fix it or at least say "I'm sorry".
Oleg hasn't done this.
Oleg is a naughty boy.

NOW do you understand why people are upset? Think real hard now... Should you be upset?

WWMaxGunz
07-18-2006, 02:19 AM
Funny but just when was there no silly b!tching about the AI?
"It doesn't have the saaaaaaame FM! FIX IT!"
and since then
"It doesn't behave riiiiiight! FIX IT!"

Please make a low cost computer game so I can define your work at no extra cost to me.
I want everything just so since you feel it is okay. Forget the standards, you WILL do
better at every turn for as long as I care to say. I will decide what is right, you just
work and keep paying specialists to do the parts you can't, except any decisions must be
approved by me, personally. And I can change my mind at any time so screw thinking you
can ever be free of me and anyone I take ideas from.

EDIT:ADD
BTW, read the EULA you agreed to when you installed the software instead of making your
own definitions as to what should be.

Go ahead. And then the EULA that came with your operating system just for laughs.
In fact, go find one EULA that gives you the power you seem to think you have........
Until then, the only K-level thinkers here are doing pre-school whining.
Only thing is that while you toddlers can be yelled at, no one is allowed to whack yer
selfish butts.

F6_Ace
07-18-2006, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by Col_Tibbetts:
It never ceases to amaze me the zealous devotion people have to Oleg and this sim. Jim Jones would be proud! Cool aid anyone?

Yes I know I said that in another thread but it is so true. I really should make it my sig.

Anyway, lets make this real simple folks. How about a little "All I need to know about life I learned in Kindergarten" philosopy.

Oleg made a toy.
He sold me this toy so now it is my toy.
He didn't give it to me or lend it to me, he SOLD it to me.
Therefore it is now MY toy.
Oleg, with the best of intentions, broke my toy when he patched it and ruined the AI.
My mommy taught me that if break someone's toy I am obligated to fix it or at least say "I'm sorry".
Oleg hasn't done this.
Oleg is a naughty boy.

NOW do you understand why people are upset? Think real hard now... Should you be upset?

lol. Yes, utter devotion - if only Oleg could cash in on it. Oh sorry, he already did.

The Defenders of the Faith (TM) feel the need to pronounce most when their deity is absent...notice that when "Svetovid" is not here, some of the higher order rally to hold the fort. Abundance "He" hath provided, for sure...an abundance of easy to solve problems that have been asked to be looked at many times over without a result.

Bobsqueek
07-18-2006, 05:20 AM
Every day oleg doesn't release a patch I hurt myself.

Col_Tibbetts
07-18-2006, 10:40 AM
BTW, read the EULA you agreed to when you installed the software instead of making your
own definitions as to what should be.

Go ahead. And then the EULA that came with your operating system just for laughs.
In fact, go find one EULA that gives you the power you seem to think you have........
Until then, the only K-level thinkers here are doing pre-school whining.
Only thing is that while you toddlers can be yelled at, no one is allowed to whack yer
selfish butts.


Oh I am well aware of EULAs. They are the little lawyer spawned goodies that allow software companies to wiggle out of actually making their software work. I know that Oleg is not LEGALLY obligated to do the right thing. However you Oleg worshipers go on and on about how Oleg is so much better than your average software company because he cares. Well if he is now hiding behind his EULA when asked to fix something he broke, he really is no better than the evil Microsoft now is he? Oh how the mighty have fallen...

Furthermore what is all this nonsense about selfish behavior on the part of people who complain that the product they bought doesn't work as advertised. Let me get this straight. You never complain about anything you buy no matter how poorly it matches its advertised qualities? If that is the case then I've got some lovely swampland in Florida to sell ya! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

GET REAL PEOPLE! Oleg is a businessman, not a God. He sold you a game. He didn't give it to you out of the goodness of his heart so you have no reason to be greatful. When people take your money it is expected that they provide quality in return. That is how business works. We have a BUSINESS relationship with Oleg. Not a friendship, not a blood brother bond, a BUSINESS relationship.

We have every right to complain!

Scen
07-18-2006, 11:04 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Chivas
07-18-2006, 11:48 AM
There are going to be bugs in such a complex game. Fix one break two. If the fuel gauge problem was a major flaw that most people found very distracting, Oleg would definitely find a way to fix it. Unfortunately for Mailman 99.5% of people don't know this very minor bug exists or could care less. Most of us are very happy with the thousands of hours of very cheap entertainment and don't sweat the small stuff. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Col_Tibbetts
07-18-2006, 12:45 PM
There are going to be bugs in such a complex game. Fix one break two. If the fuel gauge problem was a major flaw that most people found very distracting, Oleg would definitely find a way to fix it. Unfortunately for Mailman 99.5% of people don't know this very minor bug exists or could care less. Most of us are very happy with the thousands of hours of very cheap entertainment and don't sweat the small stuff.

You are right about the small stuff Chivas. However the primitive and flawed AI is a MAJOR part of the offline experience. In fact, there really aren't "thousands of hours of very cheap entertainment" when the AI abandons you during a dogfight or flies 30 mins with you to a target only to throw their bombs into thin air. I agree that those "thousands of hours" are attainable in the online experience, however for a lot of us an online experience is not possible.

We did buy a sim that advertised an immersive offline expereince though so I am sure you can understand the frustration.

Chivas
07-18-2006, 01:09 PM
You are probably right about some AI issues. I don't fly off-line to much because it so much more interesting flying with and against real people with are own flawed intelligence. You can yell at your real wingman and he may still ignore you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I would imagine the AI program is almost impossible to get right. Hopefully Oleg will be able to program the AI in BOB a little closer to the holly grail of off-line combat flight sims.

WWMaxGunz
07-18-2006, 04:36 PM
Who here can saw what the last days are being spent working on?

I have a GF who is raising one of her granddaughters since the Mom feels she needs to pursue her
own selfish wants and money for things like rent and food are better spent on other things.
The kid is a chip off the block, she throws tantrums and trashes the place when the food that
is being cooked isn't ready the instant she is. Even to start a video takes too long when the
kid is in the mood and then no matter what is prepared or begins to run cannot be good enough.
And then I come here and see the same out of supposedly grown people.

Read the effing EULA, children!

The FM got a major overhaul and it's more true to life than ever before. There has been a
program to include many planes with numerous details. It is reasonable that something as
difficult as the AI is being worked on and reasonable that no matter what it still will not
be what is expected.

AI is an extremely difficult area to approach at best even with the cheats it was allowed
back at the start, which were compared to now major although from the whine posts I'd expect
they should never, ever fly slower or better than average or sub-average players no matter
what those players ignore like coordination of rudder or entire aspects of engine management.
And still somehow the presence of AI should not have much impact on framerate while being
able to at least minimally pass a Turing Test while operating in numbers up to dozens.
Yeah sure, good luck!

Perhaps as in the case of the FM there will be progress made in the major effort of SOW that
gets carried over into FB just as the FM was --WE CAN ONLY HOPE-- and no guarantees including
just when.

So when my GF is trying to get the food cooked she is trying to explain to a screaming kid
that it takes time and the brat will have none of that and feeling perfectly right about it.
The kid can't stand to wait while the food cools down enough not to burn her young mouth.
Obviously there should always be a supply of whatever the want is no matter what time or
whatever else has had to be and me I just shake my head slowly as when I was raised that
kind of acting up would have left my face burning and my head ringing and I knew it even
then. But kids these past 20+ years are unbelievable and then I come here and see the same
basic pattern, spoiled brats that only want it all na-aoooow-woow and appreciate little of
what they already have.

WWMaxGunz
07-18-2006, 04:58 PM
BTW there is a wide gap between polite and reaonable to rude and demanding. One step only
from rude is not polite. One step only from demanding is not reasonable. Hint only that
perhaps something 'asked' for may not happen and the politeness veneer is gone completely.

Is it any wonder there is so little answer from the makers? Every time they are told to
stay and engaged in unending 'dialog' that goes right to demands and insults when answers
do not match expectations. How the feck is work to be done when the time is taken with
endless 'dialog'? There is not and has not been money to hire a babysitter who somehow
will know every detail of the game parts, the sim parts and WWII history parts plus all
ongoing development that who in the crew knows ALL of it? And yet it is considered by
many entirely 'reasonable' to expect answers to every question they think up.

You MAY not get everything you want. The team MAY be scrambling around working on demands
and the MAY instead be working by plan and budget on the best possible end result. MAY.
If you don't know about cooking then how can you say what needs to be done and when it may
be done? The actual best most reasonable thing to do is sit down, shut up and wait. That
is what ADULTS do in places like restaurants unless of course they are overgrown kids out
for a night and then they sit and make noise and push until no one is comfortable including
the people trying to eat what they have. It is just rude and childish. And what comes of
it once the behaviour affects the kitchen is never what could have been either. Understand
the parallels? They Are Real.

F6_Ace
07-18-2006, 04:59 PM
http://www.danleys.org/x19/ebay/LOTR%20Singles/12R155.jpg

All Hail The White Hand!

TSmoke
07-18-2006, 11:05 PM
Dang looks like MaxGuns has his knickers in a twist. Settle down you'll blow a bloody gasket.

MailMan asked a civil and very simple question.

He is right in my view on the majority of his points and wrong in others.

However we are all intitled to our opinions.

So why all the hassle from the usual crowd of bigmouths?

WWMaxGunz
07-18-2006, 11:17 PM
"Oleg Owes Us"
"He bwoke it"
"He better fix it!"
Yadda
Yadda
Yadda

Those big mouths?
Somebody got a hair across it before the tread started.
Poooooor baaaaabies.

BBB_Hyperion
07-19-2006, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by MAILMAN------:
Problems that have been around from versions Pre-4.05!


I get still shot down since version 1.0 . Hopefully next upgrade will consider long time users as more damage resisting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

LT.INSTG8R
07-20-2006, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
"Oleg Owes Us"
"He bwoke it"
"He better fix it!"
Yadda
Yadda
Yadda

Those big mouths?
Somebody got a hair across it before the tread started.
Poooooor baaaaabies.

So why is it you figure you have to be the one to tell these people in multiple threads to give it rest? Your the first guy in every thread to whine about the whiners and then wonder why threads that start off as polite and non flaming turn into smoking ruins......Perhaps YOU should give it a rest and let them make there points without instantly jumping on them from the other side of the fence.

WWMaxGunz
07-20-2006, 12:01 PM
Oh Yes Sir Mr. Instigator!

Try looking at the thread on the same subject over in GD.

The other week I went out with friends to the IMax to see the Superman movie.
It wasn't worth the $10 to watch. Maybe that for a DVD.
Did I get up in the theatre and complain loudly?
NO.
Did I stand out front and see how many people I could get to not go?
NO.
Did I throw any kind of spastic exaggerating fit?
NO.
How odd. From you clowns posts I'd think it would be required.

Bu-bu-bu-bu---- I bought a ticket so THEY OWE ME!
There was only 20 minutes of 3D and it's supposed to be a 3D movie!
I want them to fix it! Go back and film the parts in 2D if need be.
I don't CARE what it takes. The whole movie was RUINNNNNNED for me!
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! !!!!!!!

Oh wait, I'm not you. Or Tibbets. Or MAILMAN.
So I just enjoyed what I saw and left.
I guess there are some advantages to not being childish.

Jaws2002
07-20-2006, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by zaelu:

PS Do you know IAR 80 has no adjustable in flight rudder trim? Well... lucky me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Not for long buddy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Is going to be removed together with the ailerons trim, and the excessive torque. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

So enjoy the rudder trim while it lasts. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

BBB_Hyperion
07-21-2006, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Bu-bu-bu-bu---- I bought a ticket so THEY OWE ME!
There was only 20 minutes of 3D and it's supposed to be a 3D movie!
I want them to fix it! Go back and film the parts in 2D if need be.
I don't CARE what it takes. The whole movie was RUINNNNNNED for me!
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! !!!!!!!


When no one does this they do a sequel that is even worse. But when all say this loud and noticeable to gathered crowd , press etc it will be remembered and maybe something is improved over time. But on the other hand maybe the film was 100 % ok and would be "unrealistic" because filmmaker did give in to requests.

Without feedback no developement or with partly wrong feedback maybe wrong developement. No choice at all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
07-21-2006, 05:15 AM
Ratio of people who feel qualified to give feedback of FM alone to those who feel that just
anything they think from some reading or whatever is a very small number.
Signal to noise is low enough but we have here all the time false signals.

As to the movie, I don't go to any more there and it will make little difference.
If I want to send feedback then there are non-public ways to do so.
Even in public there is polite and there is rude.
Is my opinion of the movie so much that others should have their experience ruined?
NO!

LT.INSTG8R
07-21-2006, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Oh Yes Sir Mr. Instigator!

Try looking at the thread on the same subject over in GD.

The other week I went out with friends to the IMax to see the Superman movie.
It wasn't worth the $10 to watch. Maybe that for a DVD.
Did I get up in the theatre and complain loudly?
NO.
Did I stand out front and see how many people I could get to not go?
NO.
Did I throw any kind of spastic exaggerating fit?
NO.
How odd. From you clowns posts I'd think it would be required.

Bu-bu-bu-bu---- I bought a ticket so THEY OWE ME!
There was only 20 minutes of 3D and it's supposed to be a 3D movie!
I want them to fix it! Go back and film the parts in 2D if need be.
I don't CARE what it takes. The whole movie was RUINNNNNNED for me!
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! !!!!!!!

Oh wait, I'm not you. Or Tibbets. Or MAILMAN.
So I just enjoyed what I saw and left.
I guess there are some advantages to not being childish.

My point is why do YOU figure YOUR the "What Can Be Discussed/Debated Police"?? and there you go with the same "whine about the whiners" BS
you get it yet?? your contributions to these threads are merely flame fodder. so WHAT if they want something fixed why is that you figure YOU are the one to tell them to stop whining,dreaming etc. are you Olegs Lap Dog?? Do you secretly wish you were a Moderator?

WWMaxGunz
07-21-2006, 01:05 PM
So if I exaggerate and act rude and pushy it's not okay but if yuns do it is?
Sure.
You want. You want. You Want. You Want. You WANT. You WANT. Etc.

sudoku1941
07-21-2006, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by LT.INSTG8R:
...are you Oleg's Lap Dog?? Do you secretly wish you were a Moderator?

+1 +1 +1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I haven't seen something so on target in ages....

LT.INSTG8R
07-22-2006, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
So if I exaggerate and act rude and pushy it's not okay but if yuns do it is?
Sure.
You want. You want. You Want. You Want. You WANT. You WANT. Etc.

I dont recall asking for anything than leaving your less than useful contributions out these types of threads.....

WWMaxGunz
07-22-2006, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by sudoku1941:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LT.INSTG8R:
...are you Oleg's Lap Dog?? Do you secretly wish you were a Moderator?

+1 +1 +1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I haven't seen something so on target in ages.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awwwww, Stiggie. And we all know how you have no agenda here.

WWMaxGunz
07-22-2006, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by LT.INSTG8R:
I dont recall asking for anything than leaving your less than useful contributions out these types of threads.....

Ahhhh and what was that you were saying about forum cops?

Just ignore what you want and gimmie your grief.

goshikisen
07-22-2006, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
The other week I went out with friends to the IMax to see the Superman movie.
It wasn't worth the $10 to watch. Maybe that for a DVD.
Did I get up in the theatre and complain loudly?
NO.


A movie theatre is for sitting and watching while an online forum is for discussion. Odd analogy.

LT.INSTG8R
07-22-2006, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Ahhhh and what was that you were saying about forum cops?

Just ignore what you want and gimmie your grief.

Says the Surrogate Forum Cop......

WWMaxGunz
07-22-2006, 04:53 PM
Well I posted reasons why those requests are useless and did try to explain.
All you do is bait and call names.
Right now search in unavailable but it will be back up and I will be looking because I
don't think I've ever seen YOU post anything except complaint and support for complaints
so I'm gonna take a look.

Siggi/Suckduko/TW-beotch is another that only bothers to post when it's to drag things down.
Same with a number of y'all. Hate the sim, hate the maker, love to come and **** it.
Either yer all sick and got nuthin better to do or badly in need of attention and approval.

So keep postin yer nothin game.
What changes we get are already decided.
It's the end of the cycle.
Last call for drinks, not for future planning.

But I guess since you work for free and live for free that you have no concept of those
who do not and can not. And very few people can except for one large group: kids.

LT.INSTG8R
07-22-2006, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Well I posted reasons why those requests are useless and did try to explain.
All you do is bait and call names.
Right now search in unavailable but it will be back up and I will be looking because I
don't think I've ever seen YOU post anything except complaint and support for complaints
so I'm gonna take a look.

Siggi/Suckduko/TW-beotch is another that only bothers to post when it's to drag things down.
Same with a number of y'all. Hate the sim, hate the maker, love to come and **** it.
Either yer all sick and got nuthin better to do or badly in need of attention and approval.

So keep postin yer nothin game.
What changes we get are already decided.
It's the end of the cycle.
Last call for drinks, not for future planning.

But I guess since you work for free and live for free that you have no concept of those
who do not and can not. And very few people can except for one large group: kids.

Lets see where to start :

1: When did you become the authority on whats in and whats out? do you work for 1C? Ubi?

2:I think you will be hard pressed to find what your looking for as far as my complaining posts go minus complaning about you complaining about complainers(but certainly feel free to try)

3:I dont recall baiting or calling anyone names(Im sorry did the Olegs Lapdog comment count as name calling?)

4: whatever gave you the impression that I live work for free? I work damn hard for my 40hrs a week and earn every penny(well Kroner to be exact) and last time I checked I was 31 so I dont think that qualifies me as a "kid"

As for the "nothing game" I only started this becuase any thread I went into that someone asks for something(no matter what it was, reasonable or unreasonable) your the first guy there to tell em to give it up(relates back to my Moderator comment)I DID use the search(funny it worked for me yesterday)and just filtered thru YOUR "nothing game" but gave up trying to quote you as there was just far too much of it. Maybe you could start a Forum of your own so you could throw your "expert opinion" around there about the fate of this sim because it really seems you have all the answers.

WWMaxGunz
07-23-2006, 02:13 AM
You certainly expect the dev team to work for free. To fix every little bit that someone
finds not correct esp in their opinion is a never ending no-pay job. But would you do it?
I guess not.

As I have posted here there are a number of changes I have asked and campaigned for since
the start. Once I understand that they would not be changed which did not take so long
as years then that was it, as an adult I accept that Maddox Games has good reasons to do
with hardware limits and budget and what can and cannot be fit together at once and run
so I leave off from asking for those changes. And sometimes later the change was made
anyway... while something else changed also including hardware needed to run same speed.

I wrote software for 19 years and I have experience with these things. You?

The reason why there are so much fewer flight sim producers left is because of the pushy
demands as representatives of the industry came up stated in 1998-1999 why so many then
promising sims were cancelled. Were you around the community then?

IL2 series is a product just as any other software sold is. Read the EULA before saying
what is reasonable. No one had to install or patch whatsoever or buy anything else.

Jaws2002
07-23-2006, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
You certainly expect the dev team to work for free. To fix every little bit that someone
finds not correct esp in their opinion is a never ending no-pay job. But would you do it?
I guess not.

As I have posted here there are a number of changes I have asked and campaigned for since
the start. Once I understand that they would not be changed which did not take so long
as years then that was it, as an adult I accept that Maddox Games has good reasons to do
with hardware limits and budget and what can and cannot be fit together at once and run
so I leave off from asking for those changes. And sometimes later the change was made
anyway... while something else changed also including hardware needed to run same speed.

I wrote software for 19 years and I have experience with these things. You?

The reason why there are so much fewer flight sim producers left is because of the pushy
demands as representatives of the industry came up stated in 1998-1999 why so many then
promising sims were cancelled. Were you around the community then?

IL2 series is a product just as any other software sold is. Read the EULA before saying
what is reasonable. No one had to install or patch whatsoever or buy anything else.



+1.

greypeace
07-27-2006, 12:08 PM
Seeing the tittle of the thread :"Problems that have been around from versions PRE-4.05 !"
Noticing the "!"I though it could be interesting and CONSTRUCTING.
Not denigrating.
Reading along I decided to share the reply speed to my one and only inquiry to Oleg .
One or 2 days later the answer came by E-mail ,crisp and sensible.
That was , maybe , because the enquiry was sensible.........

Obviousely there are things that I am not happy with ,but I leave it to the specialists to
sort it out .
I certainely have no beef with the way this sofware is going.

The AI for me is the main problem ,but it must be difficult to implement intelligence with
limited means.(while running a full mathematical data base of flight dynamics looking after the
position (in 3 D).....etc etc...

So lets wait and see.

The crew have I suppose read all the suggestions and will implement the possible and manageable to
the best of the computers capabilities.

Hoping to see BOB this year http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif