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View Full Version : This AI madness has to end!



Tomas_W
04-03-2006, 04:28 PM
So, there we were, August 16th, 1942, Kuban front. We were going to tranfser further west, but something went terribly wrong.

- A short while after takeoff, number 3 and 4 in my flight(of Bf-109G-2's)collided with each other. One of 'em lost a wing and bailed out safely. The other one lost the left elevator, did not bail out for some ******* reason, crashed in a shallow dive and got scattered over a large area.

- Later, about halfway to our new base, the Ju-52's started to mess up real bad. It appears some kind of collision took place in the formation of nine planes; seven of them fell to the ground rather quickly, one crashed somewhat later due to loss of one engine.


Seriously, this madness has to end. Preferably in a not too distant future. Cause it's an immersion killer at the same level as parasitic, kill stealing wingmen that apparantly enjoy insubordination.

To make a long story short;
I found that a flight of eight virtually defenseless Li-2's were separated(by 70+km or so)from their escorts. I thought; - "Sweet, 16 engines, 1600 points, just for me.....".

Ok, so i order my entire squadron to "loiter" so that they won't stand between me and that promotion and the Knights Cross. Schwarm 2 obeyed, Schwarm 1 didn't - they followed me. Ok, nothing to do about it.

So, when the four of us got to the Li-2's, the others in my flight started attacking MY sitting ducks, without my permission. So i ordered them to return to base. None of them seemed to care, just kept shooting down MY targets as if i didn't recently order them to back the fudge off! Those bastards stole at least five twin-egnine kills from me, despite my orders.

mortoma
04-03-2006, 07:31 PM
I'm seeing similar problems when I have an escort mission, and the bombers my flight are to escort spawn in mid-air. Many times two of them will instantaneously collide when the mission starts.

"Airstart" bomber spawning in mid-air is not new to the game, but this tendency to spawn and collide seems to be new.

VW-IceFire
04-03-2006, 07:51 PM
Immersion killer? Collissions did happen between human pilots...we expect far too much out of the AI as it is. They aren't perfect...they are stupid and some things do need to be fixed so are we talking about collisions that happen say 75% of the time or rare freak occurances. A proverbial AI bad day.

I know my opinions on AI aren't popular here but I gotta say my bit. Would it be better if they were perfect 100% of the time?

aussieosprey
04-03-2006, 08:14 PM
yes i've noticed how bad the friendly AI has become in the later few patches. I'm usually leader of the squad, i'll tell them to form finger 4 formation in a large spacing, before we engage enemy aircraft thats suspected in an area. When they get close to the enemy they will attack without my order. Before they never did that u used to have to tell them to attack now they do it by free will. Another thing that bugs me is that i'll make a mission with huge formations of B-17s. I'll have a few staffels of me-262s, my guys will always attack from rear but i usually climb then dive onto the b-17. I'll pounce on the b-17 at close to 600mk/h but an AI gunner will fir e short burst and kill me instantly. The AI gunners are like snipers, its always bugged me except for one patch where it was fixed but now it seems its reverted back to its original setting.

leitmotiv
04-04-2006, 02:12 AM
The AI can be a horrible pain and it demeans a really good simulator---having said that, it can blow you out of the sky, and that is pretty amazing. I can get 15 AI Do 335s to assume line astern formation and bomb two bridges into oblivion and then form on me after, even while having to deal with annoying Allied fighters---this I find very impressive. Even the obtrusive victory glutton AI cutting in front of you to chop your target looks like something right out of American gun camera film from WWII. Rumors suggest the Maddox people are working on a radical jump ahead in AI. Let's hope so.

Tomas_W
04-04-2006, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Immersion killer? Collissions did happen between human pilots...we expect far too much out of the AI as it is. They aren't perfect...they are stupid and some things do need to be fixed so are we talking about collisions that happen say 75% of the time or rare freak occurances. A proverbial AI bad day.

I know my opinions on AI aren't popular here but I gotta say my bit. Would it be better if they were perfect 100% of the time?

In this specific campaign i'm flying, AI collisions are actually acceptably rare. But c'mon, ten out of seventeen planes crashed due to collisions in the relative safety of formation flying in clear weather over friendly territory.

With this in mind i'm surprised that there aren't more mid-air collisions during intense dogfights.

Rammjaeger
04-04-2006, 07:20 PM
Exactly the opposite happened today to me as I was flying a mission in VVS Polish fighter campaign (April 1945). Fw-190s and Stukas were attacking vehicle convoys nearby, we were sent to intercept. The Germans were outnumbered about 3:1, soon all but one of their fighters were finished, surviving Stukas were heading home.

I downed two Fw-190s, jumped on a 3rd (the last one still in the air), damaged its engine and then ran out of ammo (I was flying a Yak-9D). There I was near the frontline, with the Fw-190 trying to evade and land on German soil. No VVS fighters were nearby, everyone was returning to base. I thought "f--- chivalry, this Fw-190 must meet its end today" so I called home base to send more fighters in the area.

Apparently all other members of the squadron were content with their performance that day because everyone refused to help me out and just kept landing at our airbase! Thankfully the Fw-190 blew up soon after the landing.

BR_Swoop
04-13-2006, 10:45 PM
Boy have I seen every single missbehavior described by you all... I HATE the AI changes in behaviour. As enemy, It can maneuver very hard and be in your 6 quite fast. But, as wingman, it really tends to fly away from you. I hate when I detect a bogie getting into my 6 and call for my AI wingman to help, it says it's dumb "I've got you covered" and keeps following you. Has the moron not seen the enemy?? The other day, I was in a Quick Mission flying a Do-335 along with other 3 friendlies against 4 yaks, friends and foes set to Aces, and I spotted an enemy closing in my 6. As I was in a Dornier, a shallow climb kept the yak a good distance from me and going away. What bugged me was the fact that the enemy was straight in my 6, and my wingman was 80 meters away from the bogie (.08) and never fired a shot until the enemy shot me (obviously because I slowed down). I swear we kept like that for about 5 minutes. And the moron AI never fired a shot, but shot as soon as the enemy shot. I guess my wingman kept the bogie tight in his aim until the bogie shot, because he never made it past the third bullet, just exploded because of the MK103. What angers me is that you can come in a low 6 behind the enemy and it will magically see you. Besides, if you try that against a plane being followed by his wingman, his wingman will engage you before you can shot the first round.

I have already tried telling my wingman to engage a fighter, and it turned away to engage an enemy further than 5Km... just out of sight. If the enemy is beyond 5km, and you tell him to engage, he will reply as "unable".

I have tried to padlock that enemy and tell the wingman to engage. It takes a looong distance (after an eternal series of turns and tuneaus) and then engages, even if he was in the enemie's dead six... needless to say, you can see the entire fight comfortably from your parachute, because you were shot down by the enemy just a few minutes after asking for help, just when the wingman started the engagement, from 5km afar.

Also, the Wingman never warns you about enemies in your 6 before the enemy shots. By that time, it is just useless, the warning, because, most probably, the shot became a hit, and you are falling, or fighting to keep the plane flying long enough to make it back to the base...

Making it short, the AI NEEDS urgent reviews to make offline experience better.

The_Gog
04-14-2006, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Immersion killer? Collissions did happen between human pilots...we expect far too much out of the AI as it is. They aren't perfect...they are stupid and some things do need to be fixed so are we talking about collisions that happen say 75% of the time or rare freak occurances. A proverbial AI bad day.

I know my opinions on AI aren't popular here but I gotta say my bit. Would it be better if they were perfect 100% of the time?


Oh that's gold, pure gold!!

Are you on some kind of illicit substance?

Adam906
04-14-2006, 01:15 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I just set up a series of offliners flying the P-51D against Fw 190D-9, 4 on 4 and all set to ace. I told my formation to engage (so three engages with his wingman) and then I told my wingman to engage - what does the clown do? He split-sed and flew off in the other direction. I tried to call him back and all I get is: 'Roger, engaging" and he just keeps on going his own merry little way!

I don't bother keeping my wingman around anymore - I learnt long ago they aren't worth the pixels they're made from. As soon as a bandit is detected I let 'em loose. They may as well be out there taking the heat off me for a while as providing cover for any bogey on my 6.

-If you recall your wingman they don't return, -if you tell them to engage they just wait till you've been blasted to Valhalla and back before doing anything about it,
-if you want them to attack ground targets they are "Unable" unless they are practically sitting on top of them.

The situation is beyond a joke!

-AI pilots/gunners are crack shots (I never go up against bombers anymore unless I absolutely have to and then I'm usually content to sit back and wait for the formations to be split up by others. It's either frontal attacks only or high slashing attacks once the formatin is busted open).
-They can pull maneouvres you just can't because you either black/red/stall out of them, -they are immune to engine management problems (ie over-heat - the 262 is the worst for this!)
-they will shoot through you to get a kill
-the thing that p's me off the most though is ground-attack. I set up a airfield attack in the coral sea (ie a/c carrier) and had 3 aces with me. These things were no more than 2 clicks out and they were "Unable" to perform ground attack on them. Flying right above the bloody things being blasted by flak and they still were unable. Only when I put my kite in a dive and they followed did they finally get the message, at which point they dropped their bombs as if they were attacking other a/c... to set up for attacks - uh-oh, here comes that whole what can you kill with machine guns thing again.
-the AI never seem effected by structural damage. They can still pull their crazy turns and loop the loops with half a wing shot off or massive wholes in the airframe or vertical stabilisers missing. At least if you hit them in the engine they disengage immediately and do at least seem to suffer the effects of a misfiring/smoking engine!

I used to spend up to an hour a day playing this game (I only play offline) but thanks to the AI I hardly spend two hours a week playing this game (and that includes setting up missions!)

Some people like the challenge of this AI incarnation - certainly if the poll on the main site is anything to go by - but I bought this game and it's expansion packs for the experience.

There seems to be more people out there complaining about this AI than actually like it so lets hope Oleg et al pays attention. I can deal with idiotic wingmen (mostly) I can't deal with sniper gunners on bombers and AI that a)can defy the laws of physics b)don't fly by the same flight management/models we do.

SeaFireLIV
04-14-2006, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Immersion killer? Collissions did happen between human pilots...we expect far too much out of the AI as it is. They aren't perfect...they are stupid and some things do need to be fixed so are we talking about collisions that happen say 75% of the time or rare freak occurances. A proverbial AI bad day.

I know my opinions on AI aren't popular here but I gotta say my bit. Would it be better if they were perfect 100% of the time?

I definitely agree with this. In no way should AI be perfect as Humans aren`t perfect.

But there is something wrong with the control\aggressivity (my new word) of AI. They are acting very unrealistically compared to 4.03/2 AI.

All though I ddin`t see this problem with recalling wingmen or getting them to RTB. But I must admit not playing with 4.04 AI at all since early release...

4.04 AI is definitely BROKEN.

VW-IceFire
04-14-2006, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by The_Gog:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Immersion killer? Collissions did happen between human pilots...we expect far too much out of the AI as it is. They aren't perfect...they are stupid and some things do need to be fixed so are we talking about collisions that happen say 75% of the time or rare freak occurances. A proverbial AI bad day.

I know my opinions on AI aren't popular here but I gotta say my bit. Would it be better if they were perfect 100% of the time?


Oh that's gold, pure gold!!

Are you on some kind of illicit substance? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I live in a cold and dark country filled with endless stocks of beer. Need I say more?

VW-IceFire
04-14-2006, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Immersion killer? Collissions did happen between human pilots...we expect far too much out of the AI as it is. They aren't perfect...they are stupid and some things do need to be fixed so are we talking about collisions that happen say 75% of the time or rare freak occurances. A proverbial AI bad day.

I know my opinions on AI aren't popular here but I gotta say my bit. Would it be better if they were perfect 100% of the time?

I definitely agree with this. In no way should AI be perfect as Humans aren`t perfect.

But there is something wrong with the control\aggressivity (my new word) of AI. They are acting very unrealistically compared to 4.03/2 AI.

All though I ddin`t see this problem with recalling wingmen or getting them to RTB. But I must admit not playing with 4.04 AI at all since early release...

4.04 AI is definitely BROKEN. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have noticed them doing some wacky things as of late. My Tempest campaign is starting to show this as the fights are almost all pure energy fights and the AI seems to have a magical edge over your efforts to beat them in an energy fight. Something is definately different...I didn't notice it right away because of the campaigns I was playing but I started testing various scenarios and it started to appear.

Nonetheless...I still expect them to make errors and be stupid sometimes both because they are AI and because they are supposed to look like humans. Right now they are over the top...but crashing into the ground or each other? Take a look online for 10 minutes and watch how many headon collisions, taxiing errors, and utterly moronic moves that completely human controlled planes will do. Some people make the AI look suprememly good really...

CapBackassward
04-14-2006, 03:17 PM
S,

Well, the Tempest is fairly new, and it may well need more tweaking. Just a thought.

I have made a lot of missions with it lately and have seen a few anomalies, but nothing game breaking. I had the number 4 plane in a flight dissappear at low level. I assumed it crashed. When I looked back, or scrolled thru planes, it was gone. Has happen a couple of times. And this was in realtively flat terrain. I've had little problems with planes following orders when ground pounding, and I don't remember but one collision and that may have been aided by ground fire(flak). Over all it looks pretty good but it does seem to me that the AI aces and veterans aren't fighting as well as they should in the Tempest.

I have also lost a 4th plane in a low level Mosquito attack - several times - after a long flight.

Another thing I've noticed after making about twenty missions over the last two weeks, planes fly better at certain altitudes. Each plane has a best altitude of performance. If I make missions that takes advantage of a planes strong points (i.e. best altitude of performance, and not too low angle of attack) the planes fly better and carry out their functions better.

It seems to me the sim has always had a problem with AI planes flying low for long periods of time since its inception. So when I make missions, most of the time I set all planes at 1000 meters or higher until about 15 kilometers before they strike. I find I get less crashes like this.

I also give planes a large enough turning radius at waypoints when turning around. If the waypoints turn too sharply, it can induce collisions.

Just a few thoughts,

Rick

Chuck_Older
04-14-2006, 04:47 PM
Did somebody say Madness??


Good morning miss
Can I help you son?
Sixteen today
And up for fun
I'm a big boy now
Or so they say
So if you'll serve
I'll be on my way

Box of balloons
With the feather-light touch
Pack of party-poppers
That pop in the night
A toothbrush and hairspray
Plastic grin
Miss Clay on all corners
Has just walked in

Welcome to the House of Fun
Now I've come of age
Welcome to the House of Fun
Welcome to the lion's den
Temptation's on his way
Welcome to the House of

N-n-n-n-n-n-no no miss
You misunderstood
Sixteen big boy
Full pint in my manhood
I'm up to date
And the date's today
So if you'll serve
I'll be on my way

Welcome to the House of Fun
Now I've come of age
Welcome to the lion's den
Temptation's on his way
Welcome to the House of (Fun)

I'm sorry son
But we don't stock
Party gimmicks
In this shop
Try the House of Fun
It's quicker if you run
This is a chemist's
Not a joke shop!

Party hats
Simple enough clear
Comprehende savvy understand
Do you hear?
A pack of party hats
With the coloured tips
Too late!
Gorgon heard gossip
Well hello Joe, hello Miss Clay
Many happy returns from the day

Welcome to the House of Fun
Now I've come of age
Welcome to the House of Fun
Welcome to the lion's den
Temptation's on his way
Welcome to the House of Fun

Welcome to the House of Fun

VW-IceFire
04-14-2006, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by CapBackassward:
S,

Well, the Tempest is fairly new, and it may well need more tweaking. Just a thought.

I have made a lot of missions with it lately and have seen a few anomalies, but nothing game breaking. I had the number 4 plane in a flight dissappear at low level. I assumed it crashed. When I looked back, or scrolled thru planes, it was gone. Has happen a couple of times. And this was in realtively flat terrain. I've had little problems with planes following orders when ground pounding, and I don't remember but one collision and that may have been aided by ground fire(flak). Over all it looks pretty good but it does seem to me that the AI aces and veterans aren't fighting as well as they should in the Tempest.

I have also lost a 4th plane in a low level Mosquito attack - several times - after a long flight.

Another thing I've noticed after making about twenty missions over the last two weeks, planes fly better at certain altitudes. Each plane has a best altitude of performance. If I make missions that takes advantage of a planes strong points (i.e. best altitude of performance, and not too low angle of attack) the planes fly better and carry out their functions better.

It seems to me the sim has always had a problem with AI planes flying low for long periods of time since its inception. So when I make missions, most of the time I set all planes at 1000 meters or higher until about 15 kilometers before they strike. I find I get less crashes like this.

I also give planes a large enough turning radius at waypoints when turning around. If the waypoints turn too sharply, it can induce collisions.

Just a few thoughts,

Rick
Well I know that, although my opponents are 1945 FW190D-9s and Bf109K-4s the Tempest is a early 1944 boost model so its not really holding up in the speed department. That said...the AI seem to still have some magical energy abilities that the player does not.

I haven't had too many problems with the AI crashing. I almost always set a minimum waypoint altitude of 500m and usually 1000m or more depending on the scenario. This campaign I've spent more time under 1000m than before. And yes your right...too many tight waypoints can be a serious problem. I've avoided doing that altogether. Wayponts are laid out in a simple and easy to follow fashion for both the AI and the player.

The_Gog
04-14-2006, 05:48 PM
Thankyou for yet another useless post Older!

Back to the topic at hand,

There seems to be two camps in regards the frequency of AI "incidents", an incident being some kind of error, fault, mistake or general stuff up by the AI pilot/s that results in,

a: The AI plane crashing,
b: The AI plane doing something it was told not to,
c: The AI plane doing nothing,
d: The AI plane taking out one or more of his allies through incompetent flying.

Generally, that will cover all the most common things an AI plane will do. Camp A, says because it did happen in RL, then it must be in the game, Camp B says it didn't happen anywhere near as much as it is reflected in the sim. So regarding the frequency of incidents in the game now, is it accurate? Well, we all know that real life pilots did all those things didn't they, but did they do them as often as it happens in this game? That is the question!

Lets take a look at the hundreds of thousands of sorties flown by a nations airforce during WW2. Now I don't have the figures, I doubt if anyone has, but you can fairly safely make an assumption on the kinds of things that can go wrong on any given sortie. Lets try and rank them from most to least common shall we?

In descending order,

1. Enemy action
2. Mechanical fault
3. Weather
4. Navigational error
5. Communications misinterpretation
6. Pilot error

Enemy action is a given, no-one complains when the AI aircraft get shot down or shoot someone down whilst doing their job, that's what they are there for. Mechanical fault is not modelled into the game, it probably should be as it was a fairly common occurance. Weather remains fairly constant in the game, it can get better or deteriorate but generally doesn't change enough to impact on playability. Navigational error, lets face it, it's pretty hard to get lost in this game. So, where does that put the AI pilots crashing into eachother, disregarding orders and generally doing stupid non-sensical things?
It puts them in the worst bracket of pilot error, where the stupidest and most inexperienced pilots were. These pilots did exist, in every airforce, they are the ones that died on their first mission or died during training, BUT the number of times this happened in relation to all the sorties that an airforce flew is a miniscule number! To say "it happened, therefore it should be in the game" in this case is illogical, as there were any number of other things that went wrong far more frequently (as listed above).
In order for this sim to be 'as close' to accurate as possible, the AI pilots should in fact not ever make a mistake, they should always follow orders, whether to attack, follow, rejoin, return to base or whatever because in the vast number of sorties flown in the war, this is what most pilots, by an overwhelming majority, actually DID!!!!!

There are other things, other variables that should be modelled/fixed waaaaay before we should be accepting the **** AI that is currently in the game. Once we have mechanical problems, poor communications with other aircraft and ground control, accurate weather patterns etc, THEN we can ask for the odd AI pilot to do something a bit screwy, but even then it should only happen very rarely, just like it was in WW2.

CapBackassward
04-14-2006, 07:12 PM
WV-IceFiresaid:
That said...the AI seem to still have some magical energy abilities that the player does not.



I agree. Have you ever watched a plane, or followed it down, and it can dive without ripping off an aileron, but if I try to do it, I 1st - blackout, or 2nd - something snaps off the airplane.
But I also think some of it may be that the AI can fly much more efficient to the FM of the plane than a human pilot can. Kinda like newbies complaining of not being able to keep up with the rest of the flight until they get better at flying the plane.

Rick

Chuck_Older
04-15-2006, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by The_Gog:
Thankyou for yet another useless post Older!



I'm curious- why did you decide to take that innocuous post to heart so much?

I'm also curious as to what you consider "useless"

I'll quote a reply from this very thread for you. I'm curious as to whether or not you consider this post "Useless" and why or why not:


Oh that's gold, pure gold!!

Are you on some kind of illicit substance?


Hmmm...now was that post constructive? hard to tell...maybe abrasion equals constructivity? Jeez I dunno...what do you think, Mr. On-topic-as-a-rule-and-helpful-to-fluffy-bunnies? Was that little Gem useless, or not? Give me your input on what that poster was doing to be considered 'useful'.

Chuck_Older
04-15-2006, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by CapBackassward:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> WV-IceFiresaid:
That said...the AI seem to still have some magical energy abilities that the player does not.



I agree. Have you ever watched a plane, or followed it down, and it can dive without ripping off an aileron, but if I try to do it, I 1st - blackout, or 2nd - something snaps off the airplane.
But I also think some of it may be that the AI can fly much more efficient to the FM of the plane than a human pilot can. Kinda like newbies complaining of not being able to keep up with the rest of the flight until they get better at flying the plane.

Rick </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Ai doesn't experience blackout/redout or engine overheat

You don't have to either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif When they have blackout/redout or engine overheat, I'll turn them back on, but I've had enough of the AI always having these advantages when i do not, so I flipped a couple switches

EiZ0N
04-15-2006, 07:49 AM
As an Artificial Intelligence student, I have to say that the idea of having to code up AI for this game gives me nightmares.

PBNA-Boosher
04-15-2006, 09:54 AM
It probably the most impressive job on AI we'll have seen to date, although I agree some things are wrong.

For example: in a full power dive yesterday, offline, an A6M3 Zero caught up with my P-47D-10 in a vertical dive from 6000 meters. When I started pulling out I was at 800 kph. Nothing had happened structurally at all to the AI Zeke.

general_kalle
04-15-2006, 10:04 AM
1. as the Zero(or Zeke) is much more lightwaight it wil not pickup as much speed as u but ok 800... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

try taking two relativly equal planes
set them on ace and let them battle out...they acht horribble http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif