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XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:28 PM
Today is the day that the Ace of all Aces died, im talking about Erich Hartmann.Im not sure what year he died, many sources say 1993, or 1995, so I will just put up the day he died. He died at hes home in Stuttgart, Germany. I would like to pay my respects to him.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ejnoomen/hartmann.jpg
Hes Gravestone in Stuttgart
http://users.aol.com/dheitm8612/rit5.jpg
An artist painting of him



http://pilotosdelaluftwaffe.tripod.com/avi/erichhartmannsabre.jpg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Out of all of my accomplishments, Ive never lost a wing man"- Erich Hartmann
He fought for hes country, not for hes leaders.


Message Edited on 09/19/03 03:28PM by Wetwilly87

Message Edited on 09/19/0304:55PM by Wetwilly87

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:28 PM
Today is the day that the Ace of all Aces died, im talking about Erich Hartmann.Im not sure what year he died, many sources say 1993, or 1995, so I will just put up the day he died. He died at hes home in Stuttgart, Germany. I would like to pay my respects to him.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ejnoomen/hartmann.jpg
Hes Gravestone in Stuttgart
http://users.aol.com/dheitm8612/rit5.jpg
An artist painting of him



http://pilotosdelaluftwaffe.tripod.com/avi/erichhartmannsabre.jpg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Out of all of my accomplishments, Ive never lost a wing man"- Erich Hartmann
He fought for hes country, not for hes leaders.


Message Edited on 09/19/03 03:28PM by Wetwilly87

Message Edited on 09/19/0304:55PM by Wetwilly87

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:36 PM
I know that quite often the people who fought in World War II were victims of circumstance, but nonetheless it feels odd to "pay respects" to a man who essentially fought on Hitler's side. Was he very much like Werner von Braun in that he was "enlisted" on the "dark side" and didn't really fight "for Hitler," per se? Just curious.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:37 PM
i guess i can respect him as an WW2 pilot and ace, but i feel naturale rejection towards him since he fought for the Nazi regime, and could have been a nazi himeself.



Message Edited on 09/19/0310:39PM by ohadbx

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:40 PM
Regardless he was THE Ace of WW2. It's funny because I just read about him in Borders on one of my book recon missions.... Wether or not he was a full fledged Nazi is irrelevent to me. There is enough blood guilt to go around on all the nations who fought in WW2, either during, before or after the war. No nation is innocent and guilt free. For his achievements I give a hearty ~S~.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:48 PM
Its not like I hate the guy but I just could not salute him either.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:49 PM
I agree with bearcat99 S`

just shows how easily the mass public is manipulated, they all believed they were fighting with good intentions for thier country name.

I pay respect for the greatness of flight


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:50 PM
As a historical figure and a pilot, I can respect his accomplishments. On the other hand, if he had seen my father in his tank during the war he would have tried to kill him.

Therefore... I'm glad he's dead and he can bloody well stay that way.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 11:52 PM
Just want to add my big S! to Erich "Bubi" Hartmann.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:01 AM
year of death unknown?

is that why it says "1996" on the stone? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:07 AM
There is written "23.3.1924-3.2.1996"

"in Liebe für immer" --> in love forever.



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif


http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/Forums/

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:07 AM
1996 is his wife /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

1993 is for Hartmann

<center>http://www.geocities.com/welshdaz_uk/190.txt



http://www.join.jzg23.de

"Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:10 AM
He is my hero, many of the pilots did it because of the love to fly, and when they see each other on the ground afther one of them was shoot down in either side, they would talk to each other as friends not as anemy or as least as good sportmen, the german aces were a example to follow even if you were an allied pilot

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

MicroSoft Most Wanted
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/the-aztek-eagles/oleg.jpg


"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

MicroSoft Most Wanted
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/the-aztek-eagles/oleg.jpg


"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

MicroSoft Most Wanted
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/the-aztek-eagles/oleg.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:11 AM
Oh, and his gravestone says 20th September, but it is now 20th here in the UK

<center>http://www.geocities.com/welshdaz_uk/190.txt



http://www.join.jzg23.de

"Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:17 AM
~S~


Message Edited on 09/19/0311:18PM by steve_v

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:20 AM
Bearcat99 wrote:

- No nation is innocent and guilt free. For his
- achievements I give a hearty ~S~.

What exactly were his achievments? As far as I can see he just killed a lot of badly-trained Russian teenagers. He certainly did little to make the world a better place.

I can't regard him with anything other than indifference or pity - certainly not admiration.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:23 AM
For the uninformed:
Hartmann spent years in prison in USSR, after being handed over to them by the USA. After release, he was instrumental in the formation of the modern German Luftwaffe, and worked closely with NATO, as well as the US Govt. He was, and is NOT considered a war criminal by ANY government.

Tsisqua

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:26 AM
S!

Whether is was or was not a Nazi.

He was the greatest Ace of all time.

Can't take that from him!


-Salute-

Falcon

<center>http://777AVG.com/sigs/sig07.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:27 AM
Its a pity some of you feel that way about a solider. Maybe ya need to go talk to some of the WW2 vets that have become very good friends with there enemy of 50+ years ago.

As far as him being a Nazi. The people loyal to the Nazis were a minority in Germany. As its amazing what one man can do to a country. And this happened in more then just one country at the time which i wont name here to avoid being flamed.


S~ Erich Hartmann



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"



Message Edited on 09/19/0306:28PM by LW_lcarp

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:36 AM
Erich Hartmann, ~S~

PS: He was not a Nazi!

http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:42 AM
I can understand people's willingness to overlook his politics or the side he gfought for and focus on his achievements, but it tends to slip when you get into the what if's.

What if Russia had lost and Herr Hartmann killed not hundreds but thousands of Russians, chasing and dogfighting and straffing civilians all way to the Urals?

What if after that he was posted to the western front and helped kill British and then the nazis invaded Britain and now was chasing and killing British all the way across the country?

And then when North America was the target and the great ace was killing Americans and Canadians and bombing civilians and straffing refugees?

All this was part of the Nazi plan and the good pilot that he was he would have gone along for the whole ride. I wonder at what part of the killing his "humanity" would have kicked in and he would have decided that he wasn't a part of the Nazi killing machine but just a "feel good" pilot out to joust with other gentlemen?

My respects lie for those on this side of the fight.

(Sorry for the speech)



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:42 AM
After the war in Europe ended, the British turned him over to the Russians, and the Russians tryed him as a war criminal because killed so many of thier pilots, of course he wasnt. They offerd him a chance to train thier Russian pilots in combat tactics, since they knew he was very good at it. He refused, and they threw him in prison, he was in a prison camp for 10 years before being released by the West German goverment. While in prison, he got some sort of disease that eventually killed him. After being released and recovering, he joined the West German Aiforce and help train thier pilots. I dont know about you, but most Nazi's fled Germany all together, like Adolf Galland, and Hanz Rudel, either to Spain or some other countrys. I dont consider him a Nazi at all, he was just doing hes job as a soldier. My grandfather fought for Germany during the war, and he wasn no Nazi, the only people I think that were Nazi's were the SS, or party officials. Also, he proved that he can take on American planes and shoot them down too, when he shot down 6 P-51D Mustangs over Romania, I dont know if this was in one day or a month, but the only German ace to shoot down the most Mustangs was Wilhelm Steinmann and he got 11+, and he had been fighting for the Luftwaffe since the war began.



http://pilotosdelaluftwaffe.tripod.com/avi/erichhartmannsabre.jpg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Out of all of my accomplishments, Ive never lost a wing man"- Erich Hartmann
He fought for hes country, not for hes leaders.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:46 AM
Hartmann was judged in his lifetime, and found "not guilty". He became a contributor to the science of aviation, and the entire lot of you are indebted to him for that. Now . . . flame on!

~S~ Herr Hartmann

Tsisqua

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:48 AM
he was a pow in russia for 10 years after the war ended.
till 1955ish. can u belive that?
lou69

THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN WON WITHOUT THE CANADIANS

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:50 AM
History is turgid, there are no black and white photos of good and evil-men fight for what they believe in, and in many cases (reperations that were imposed on Germany) nationalism was the catalyst for creating extrodinary men.

We can all footnote well written history books and primary resources until we die but this man fought for his family, his country, (the ultimate goal of the 3rd R wasn't known to common soldiers), his family, and his ideals.

What would you have done (if you've read enough history)?

rogo



<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Message Edited on 09/19/0304:54PM by Rogodin

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:53 AM
don't wish to demean the solemnity of this thread, but today is also birthday of Jack Daniels distillery.

Here's to both of them.

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif


She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:57 AM
how many he get? i dont like the eagle on the gravestone :\
the nazi's lied to the german ppl, said communists where barely human etc

shame he was on the wrong side really /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:59 AM
Salute!!!!

screw you guys if you cant salute a good pilot. Im american and i can deal with it. If you cant deal with life and the way it turns out, Well your going to have a real tuff time so you may as well start crying now.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:02 AM
My fish died today, September 19 2003. He couldn't fly any aircraft and he certainly can't do internet so who cares, right?

<marquee>http://www3.sympatico.ca/palmer.john/ju87-002.jpg </marquee>

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:08 AM
was it a flying fish?

I care.

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif


She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:09 AM
Salute to Mr.Hartmann (not the regime he fought for)./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


(btw,sorry about the fish,psychopetey/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif )

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:10 AM
Beirut wrote:
- a bunch of drivel then added:
- My respects lie for those on this side of the fight.

Those who did what? Fire bombed Dresden civilians. Nuked two Japanese towns. Let's not even get started on the attrocities of Stalin and his henchman Bersia.

It's been said already, there's blame enough on both sides.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:23 AM
psychopetey wrote:
- My fish died today, September 19 2003. He couldn't
- fly any aircraft and he certainly can't do internet
- so who cares, right?

this comment was somehow not funny nor useful...

i think, Erich Hartmann was a great fighter pilot, and therefore he earns respect. he fought on the side of the third reich, thats true, but that does not logically mean he is a nazi. average german people didnt "like" the government because of its plans to kill everyone not fitting into the thoughts of those sick nazibrains (they hardly even knew about them), they voted for them because they did many good things to the economy and industry, like buildung most of the motorways that are in germany today and so on...
thats what the folks have seen, they havent seen the jews in the KZs...
but everyone should know what he wants to believe, that was just my point of view

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:30 AM
They voted for them as they wanted to feel better after the depradations of the Treaty of Versailles and, to some extent, were duped. Autobahnen were largely built with camp i.e. slave labour.

Let's keep this one on topic, eh?

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif


She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif


She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:45 AM
DeBaer.534 wrote:
-
- psychopetey wrote:
-- My fish died today, September 19 2003. He couldn't
-- fly any aircraft and he certainly can't do internet
-- so who cares, right?
-
- this comment was somehow not funny nor useful...
-

I couldn't agree more

and, concerning the German citizens, and the Nazis:



- . . . they voted for them because they did
- many good things to the economy and industry, like
- buildung most of the motorways that are in germany
- today and so on...
- thats what the folks have seen, they havent seen the
- jews in the KZs...
- but everyone should know what he wants to believe,
- that was just my point of view
-
-


Every citizen of every nation needs to know that this is possible in their own countries. This thread was dedicated to the memory of a man, who as great as he was during a futile war, truly distinguished himself during his imprisonment, and through subsequent events after the war. Before being disrespectful, please look into the story of this man . . . the truth will inspire you, no matter what your nation.


Tsisqua



http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:49 AM
There is nothing wrong with repecting a German soldier. They fought for what they thought was good intentions for there country not Hitler. I can respect all who step up and fight for what they believe in even if I feel they are wrong. In WW2 there was a suvey done. The question was to a large number of American soldiers. (How many of you would like to kill a German?) Only 4% responded with a yes. However when the same question was ask in the pacific. (How many of you would like to kill a Japanese?) The response jumped upto 44%. You see we had are own share of propaganda here in America as well.
S~

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:53 AM
^S^ Erich Hartmann,

May you and your wife rest in eternal peace together.

-----------------------------------------------------
</center>http://members.fortunecity.com/stg77/stg77banner.jpg
-----------------------------------
When a German Infantry unit's advance is halted...who do they call?? The Fighter jocks? Get real!!...They call the STUKA Pilots !!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://members.fortunecity.com/stg77/index.htm

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:01 AM
the japs did awful things to captured soldiers remmber :\
rip tho

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:01 AM
I agree with what bearcat said and the man only did what every other ww2 pilot did, he fought for his country

http:// .



HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS WINS

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:01 AM
Oh My god! Thank you for let me know and show us his rest in peace. Right stuff! Horrido.

cheers

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:02 AM
oh the nazi's stopped elections after they got in power didnt they?
cos they needed time without opposition or sumin :\

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:12 AM
He did in his life what any patriot would do. He answered the call from his leaders to defend the country. I am an American and would do the same thing. Many of the soldiers from around the globe do not and did not agree with or want a war. But they all do/did the honorable thing. Right or wrong he was defending his country. I can respect that.

...and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you long to return.
~leonardo de vinci

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:21 AM
I think the forum is getting a little out of hand, now you guys are talking about 60 year old history, Nazism, etc.. what about the game and the fun of flying a simulator, the ways to get better at it, my fish dying. The point of that comment was it is pointless, like this string. Nazis are history. Forget about them, good fighter aces are fine, Luftwaffe still exist as well as the Werhmach army, I know this because I use to live on a Military base in Shilo Manitoba, (Canada) and they use to train there with Canadian soldiers. Anyway ditch the crap about the Nazis and get on with the game.

<center>http://www3.sympatico.ca/palmer.john/He111
<marquee>place text here</marquee>

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:34 AM
This has nothing to do with the game, this was started because I wanted everyone to remember the day the Greatest Ace in History died today, I didnt bring up the Nazi subject, someone else did, so shame on them.

http://pilotosdelaluftwaffe.tripod.com/avi/erichhartmannsabre.jpg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Out of all of my accomplishments, Ive never lost a wing man"- Erich Hartmann
He fought for hes country, not for hes leaders.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:43 AM
Good point, let's string up the Nazi. I just did a search of this guy, surprising what is on the internet these days. talks alot about him and his tactics, seems he was very talented and set some of the standards for modern fighter tactics, interesting fellow.

<center>http://www3.sympatico.ca/palmer.john/He111
<marquee>place text here</marquee>

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:47 AM
You should /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

when your irony shows psch.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 02:57 AM
http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 03:01 AM
<center>http://www.mszp007.hu/html/ww2/lexikon/hartmank.jpg

<center>The Blonde knight

there he is....check out some history of him at http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/hartm/hartm.htm

How about his sig....http://www.hotlinecy.com/images/Displays/00HartmannCard.JPG

or maybe a nice pic..http://www.mszp007.hu/html/ww2/lexikon/hartmank.jpg




<center>http://www3.sympatico.ca/palmer.john/He111
<marquee>place text here</marquee>

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 03:18 AM
Chadburn,

I apologize for the "drivel". Just my .02 cents.

As a fellow Canadian though, I might remind you; they started it! They asked for a whoopin' and they got one.

And don't even start about the atomic bombs. If humanity is your ultimate concern, why don't you mention any of the miryad of conventional bombing that killed far more than the atomic bombs. 83,000 died in one night in Tokyo, how come you don't mention that but bring up the A-bombs that killed tens of thousand less. I think you may be lost in humanitarian propaganda and revisionist history.

Always remember - they started it. Not us. They enslaved entire countries. Not us. They commited genocide by the millions. Not us. They conducted torturous experiments on POWs and civilians. Not us. They were the ones who were wrong. Not us.

"Proud to be Canadian!"



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 03:55 AM
While I certainly will agree that the U.S. GB, and the other "Western" powers committed fewer deliberate atrocities than the Germans and Japanese, I am not sure that the same can be said about Stalin. It has been years since I have seen the figures but I believe Stalin and Hitler were relatively close in the number of innocents killed. I think Hitler did it out of an insane concept of race and purity (the myth of Aryans -- did you know that some British soldiers of Indian ethnicity were conscripted as POWs and fought for the Germans). Stalin slaughtered millions because of his quest for absolute power and paranoia about being overthrown.

It fate of the German POWs captured by the USSR is frequently mentioned on this forum. What about the fate of the Soviet POWs captured by the Germans? What about the fate of the Soviet POWs after they escaped or were released at the end of the war? Were not 1,000s sent to camps because they were suspected of ideological contamination?

Did you know that the U.S. neglected 1,000s of German POWs who were housed in camps without shelter and inadequate provisions? While it is true that this was mostly the result of logistics we still carry some stigma.

If you want to understand the roots of WW2 then read "Out of the Night." It was written by a German communist who moved to the U.S. around 1940 after Stalin's betrayal which was done to appease Hitler.

I am an American. I volunteered for Vietnam. I read history (lots of it) and don't depend upon movies for my knowledge. Hitler and the Nazis were evil. Stalin and his regime were not much better. And if you don't think it could happen in the U.S. if we had another great depression, I think you don't know human nature. Just think about what the U.S. would be like now if we did not have at least a partly free press. By the way, I am an anarchist but I spit my vote between the Republicans and Democrats.

Read W.H. Auden's September 1, 1939 (google search) which has these lines:

"I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return."

As for Hartmann, he fought well for a bad cause. Many men have done so.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 04:05 AM
Actually with the birthing deaths caused by the radiation the casualties of the two bombs were over 500,000.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/120903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 06:56 AM
GMichaelP, well said.

S! to a soldier.


SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 07:40 AM
for my part , i don´t care about an ace, allied or axis.

but i have read Bearcats99 statement .

although i wrote few comments about some of the US guys /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , still i like America and the people there .


Johannes Steinhoff said in an interview:
...... my first trip to the USA , i could not believe what i saw: they show me so much respect, were friendly , i have not seen hostile reaction.........



well said , bearcat , i like you /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

Message Edited on 09/20/0306:46AM by Boandlgramer

fluke39
09-20-2003, 11:58 AM
Boandlgramer wrote:
- for my part , i don´t care about an ace, allied or
- axis.
-
- but i have read Bearcats99 statement .
-
- although i wrote few comments about some of the US
- guys /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , still i like
- America and the people there .
-
-
- Johannes Steinhoff said in an interview:
- ...... my first trip to the USA , i could not
- believe what i saw: they show me so much respect,
- were friendly , i have not seen hostile
- reaction.........
-
-
-
-
-
-
- well said , bearcat , i like you



you can always rely on bearcat to say the right thing... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

i don't think i've EVER seen him angry or upset (a little charged perhaps but thats about it/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif )

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 12:48 PM
This whole thread makes me want to take a shower!! Oh wait mabe not.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:00 PM
Erich Hartmann was the farthest from a Nazi you could get. Infact, many Luftwaffe pilots werent Nazis, they were just fighter for their country. I wish I could've met Erich Hartmann. Maybe in the afterlife. Salute to him and all of our other deceased aces.

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Sigs are over rated. Screw them. Screw them all.

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 01:05 PM
Erich Hartmann was a great man. My respect to him.

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