PDA

View Full Version : Night Flying, Time Over Target, and Astro/Celestial-Navigation in IL2



Hanglands
11-24-2006, 12:09 PM
Hi,

I have been thinking how good it would be if astro-navigation was included in BoB, especially with the potential (heres hoping) of the RAFs heavies.

But also, I did this exercise because I was thinking of making a Hurricane night intruder campaign (lone Hurris nip accross the channel, shoot up some landing bombers and head back, a la No.1 sqdn Apr-Jul 1942), and the compass in the Hurri is hidden by the stick So I though about using the stars instead.

I though it might also be useful if your compass was shot out, alas there seem to be a few instruments that never get hit, the compass being one of them. Wouldnt it be good blind flying a damaged aircraft at night? No?

So to begin with I looked at the stars at different times of the night on various maps. It seems that whilst the sun and the moon move as in RL, the stars do not, they are fixed. Whats more the stars are the same on every map. This to me was good news because it means I only have to produce one map.

This map is not of the whole sky, it only shows one screen capture of the horizon and above. this is mostly what you would navigate by, Ive omitted the overhead stuff.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/starshot3.jpg

I havent highlighted any constellations, I cant say if the ones shown are real, but for my purposes that is irrelevant. The bearings given by the stars are shown at the bottom. I think this is accurate to +/- 4 degrees (1.1%).

So to test this out I decided to fly a He-111 accross the Gulf of Finland map from the bombardiers position (you only have altitude and indicated airspeed instruments there, you also get a better view of the stars).

So I plot a course:

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/finlandmap.jpg

Take off from Humalainen, climb to 2km
Head 90km west, bearing 270

Turn South West bearing 225 for 70km

Turn South, bearing 180 for 110km Land at Lyhvi-Ahtme.

So, while Im using old methods to navigate, I'll use time over target to tell me where I am along a given path :

All subsequest calculations are based on a constant indicated airpeed of 250km/h (283km/h TAS). Also, the distance of the diagonal in a 10x10km gridsquare is rounded down to 14km.

Also, I fly mostly with speedbar off, but I just covered the bearing bit with a piece of card (does toggle speedbar get rid of the bearing bit too?)

283kmh/60= 4.71km per minute.

Humalanien to first turn is
90/4.71=19.1minutes flying time.

From first turn to second turn is
70/4.71=14.86 minutes.

From second turn to Iyhvi-Ahtme is
110/23.4 minutes.

Thats a little over 57minutes in the air (excluding takeoff and landing) and a distance of 270km.

I used the kitchen timer to tell me when to turn. Must remember to put that back where I found it.

Once I had climbed to altitude, I started off from roughly over the center of Humalainen airfield. 57 Minutes later this is where I was :

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/finlandpocketmap.jpg

I promise I didnt use the map whilst navigating, I only used it for this screenshot

Jaws2002
11-24-2006, 12:21 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

You keep surprising us with your experiments. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/Shot1.jpg

TIR 4 Pro -$25 Off- From Forgotten Assassins (http://trackir.naturalpoint.com/forgottenassassins/)


Hunter 82's Uber PC Component Shop (http://www.magnum-pc.com/)

Waldo.Pepper
11-25-2006, 04:14 AM
It shows me about 400m from where I should be.

My god! Personally I am extremely impressed. Not only with the 400m thing, but in the whole concept of what you did. Extremely clever.

Much of this replicates navigation at night the old way. Now ad some clouds, and really bad weather. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I must try this.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

MrMojok
11-25-2006, 04:25 AM
VERY impressive!

You, sir, are an innovater. Now I'd like to see you navigate by the stars to intercept a flight of night bombers and drop a Mistel on them.

J/K http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://members.cox.net/f1dude/P51_sig.jpg

FlixFlix
11-25-2006, 04:41 AM
Astonishing! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Haigotron
11-25-2006, 11:46 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif wow, simply wow<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/haigotron/il2banner.png
The End is Nigh: The World will END in two weeks...be sure!

Haigotron
11-25-2006, 11:48 AM
Also, I fly mostly with speedbar off, but I just covered the bearing bit with a piece of card (does toggle speedbar get rid of the bearing bit too?)

yes, just press it a few times until it vanishes - its actually toggling b/w the different speed units which are not visible (b/c you chose no speedbar), hence why pressing once doesnt make it go

bottom line - press speedbar (bind it first) a few times, it should begone<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/haigotron/il2banner.png
The End is Nigh: The World will END in two weeks...be sure!

leitmotiv
11-25-2006, 11:51 AM
Marvelous stuff. I am a math cretin and I'll be relying on my navigator to guide my shot up Lanc back to Scrampton!

Gitano1979
11-25-2006, 05:45 PM
nice... wish we'll see this on SOW:BOB. It shouldn't be difficult to implemente a real all-sky map with real constellations, and with stars up to, let's say, 6th magnitude (circa 3000 stars)

LEXX_Luthor
11-25-2006, 06:06 PM
Gitano::
It shouldn't be difficult to implemente a real all-sky map with real constellations, and with stars up to, let's say, 6th magnitude
Done! ~> http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2257


http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/73db0b66.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

ouston
11-25-2006, 06:29 PM
This is a most impressive experiment. I can also understand why IC-Maddox might decide to design their game with less than total authenticity in the night sky however. From my reading star sights were not easy to obtain and perhaps in the later part of the war not the principal means of navigation. Night intruder missions in Hurricanes would presumably involve map and compass work with little use of the stars.

If Oleg Maddox is slightly more sympathetic to 3rd party designers and developers perhaps the next BOB sim could be expanded to include the Lancs, Halifaxs, Wimpeys and Stirlings so dear to the hearts of some of us. If one can dream perhaps the Tiffie and the Meatbox - the later being the operational Allied jet fighter of WWII rather than some of the back of a *** packet designs modelled in the 46 add on. The 46 package looks
good and I will buy it but it is frustrating that we do not have the Meteor let alone a flyable Blenheim or Whirlwind.

Pip pip
Ouston

RCAF_Irish_403
11-25-2006, 06:43 PM
WHOA http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Originally posted by marc_hawkins:
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. A 108:0 kill ratio is insignificant next to the power of the Force

http://www.fas.org/main/home.jsp

LEXX_Luthor
11-25-2006, 06:51 PM
ouston::
I can also understand why IC-Maddox might decide to design their game with less than total authenticity in the night sky however.
Making a realistic starry sky is trivially easy and to do and offers zero grafix performance hit over the non-realistic stars, and the stars are a core element of the WW2 night air warfare environment. Expanding a sim to certain night op theaters like RAF vs Luftwaffe may always be an option among the planned Theater additions to BoB And Beyond. Any amatuer can do a correct night sky http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, as I did it myself in a Fortran90 DOS program a few years ago, and even went to 7th magnitude and 14,000 stars and included Milky Way clouds that cut the sky into two halves.

Target For Tonight interview (RAF vs Luftwaffe, cancelled sim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )...

Eddie::

~> http://www.womengamers.com/interviews/t4t.php

page 2
....Also there will be the Aurora Borealis (we thought of it before Microsoft announced it was in FS2002!), accurate stars to allow for navigation, fire, tracers, flak, searchlights, flares, "FIDO" (a system to clear fog where perforated pipes were laid alongside runways, filled with petrol, and then set alight!), and so on. It will be far from dull!
<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A...in FB Gold...and...Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Thanatos833
11-26-2006, 01:52 AM
Sweet. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

I am amazed by the dedication to realism by the forumers here.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9285/do17in9.jpg

The Dornier Do-17, another brilliant example of German engineering, a ???Schnellbomber" which could just outrun all fighters, this plane led to the German victory in the Battle of Britain and indeed, the Second World War.

Gitano1979
11-26-2006, 04:35 AM
hmm... i'm not sure about the max magnitude allowed: 0 magnitude stars are 1000 time brighter than 6th, so it'd be hard to render this difference with point-like sources IMO: i had the same problem drawing my telescope observation long time ago... better to stop to 3rd magnitude, just to recognize constellations

raaaid
11-26-2006, 06:01 AM
i heard that pilots were taken to planetariums to learn stars navigation

i recomend you the free software stellarium

LEBillfish
11-26-2006, 06:45 AM
Good Stuff Hanglands http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK">"Does this make my Hien look big?"
"I love my Ha-40's"
"She loves teh Swallow"
"Don't call me cho-cho san"
</span>

Choctaw111
11-26-2006, 07:23 AM
A "Real" night sky would be a very nice and welcomed addition in BoB. It is true that not everyone would notice the constellations or the moon phases but for those that are familiar with such things this would only push the immersion level even further...and as stated ealier in this thread adding a real night sky would not be that difficult and would add so many more possibilities to BoB.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Alienware P4 3.2 EE
2 Gigs RAM
Intel D875PBZ MoBo
GeForce 7800 GS
CH Fighterstick, ProThrottle, ProPedals
TrackIR3 w/ 6DOF

Philipscdrw
11-26-2006, 08:21 AM
Hanglands, you should be recruited by 1C as a tester!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

------------------------------------------------------------
PhilipsCDRw

PF_Tini's Simple Guide to Switching 4.04m, 4.05m, and 4.07m. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7351046415)
Flying on Hyperlobby as EAF_T_Dozer

Hanglands
11-26-2006, 09:27 AM
Thanks all, for your very positive comments. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Photobucket has reduced the size of the star map shown. If anyone wants to dabble with astro-nav you can PM me and I'll send a copy thats a good size for printing.

Regards.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/logoHH.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/hanglands/)