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Wildnoob
09-14-2009, 11:32 AM
folks, gonna let clear that this is not a tread to complain about the modelation of the aicraft performance.

well, I been using the Zero in combat in early war operations and are not being able to see it's superiority over the enemy, and I mean an enemy who generally don't use the proper tactics to fiogth me wich would meant their figthers can be far more deadly.

for example, I was flying online and make a dive firing pass in a furball. I open up at about 450 km/h and immedetely pull up in the vertical for avoid any pursuiters, in the case F4F Wildcats.

surprisingly, I spoted that a Wildcat was coming from low level fligth and get in the vertical to chase me. guess he was not very fast, as was in the furball, and I thougth: "no, I enter in the vertical in high speed, no way, he gonna stall". but not, a few seconds passed and the Wildcat was behind me and get with firing range. then I deployed flaps, was at maximum angle of attack of my airplane, and the Wildcat doesn't have show any signals of enter in stall.

I don't know wat's wrong with me, always that I take the combat to the vertical the enemy caugth me. I enter in high speed, with energy. I make loops also, somewat similary like the ones you gonna se in the video bellow, all tactics that supossed should work.

in Saburo Sakai's biography he says that a twist spiral our just a vertical climb, logic with energy starting, should make a P-40 or a Wildcat stall, they simple couldn't follow the Zero in such maneuvers.

but I don't know wat I'm doing wrong in IL2, because I can't put in pratic those maneuvers.

so would ask you folks, please, how do you use the vertical advantages of the Zero to foolish early war enemy planes, in a summary, how do you start the maneuvers, I really don't figure out how to use this great edge of the A6M.

ok, I know that the Dogfigths series is not a historical reference for pretty much anything, but take a look at this part of a episodie about the Hellcat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...WEfs&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY8FIjRWEfs&feature=related)

it starts at 1:05, a comparison is made that if was a Wildcat it would probably stall, and the pilot use it because it was one of the favorite tactics used by Japanese pilot's against planes like the Wildcat.

I analize the tactic, the way it was done, and still don't figure out where is my error, why I can't use this advantage against those early planes that way.

Sillius_Sodus
09-14-2009, 11:43 AM
Hi Wildnoob,

It must be the Ai's revenge for not being able to outdive the Zero http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Seriously though, I've had the same thing happen to me, I usually use horizontal maneuvering with the Zero. Loops can work well also, especially when the enemy is within a few hundred meters.

I have a bad habit of keeping the throttle at 95%-100% whenever I am in combat, however with the Zero you can get better turn performance if you vary the power settings more.

Hope this helps.

K_Freddie
09-14-2009, 11:48 AM
Your first mistake, like many others in this game, is assuming that RL tactics are 'gospel'.

No doubt the WW2 pilots talk about tactics that work at a certain time, but one cannot assume that this is always the case.

At high speeds (>350kph) the Wildcats/P40's are nearly as manuverable as the Zero.. the Zero only shines at speeds less than 300kph.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

megalopsuche
09-14-2009, 11:50 AM
You misjudged the bandit's energy state.

The A6M is much more difficult to succeed with in early war than it's historical reputation would suggest because your opponents know not to turn with you. The F4F is a far better fighter in most combat situations except for 1 vs 1 duel.

Wildnoob
09-14-2009, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Sillius_Sodus:
Hi Wildnoob,

It must be the Ai's revenge for not being able to outdive the Zero http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Seriously though, I've had the same thing happen to me, I usually use horizontal maneuvering with the Zero. Loops can work well also, especially when the enemy is within a few hundred meters.

I have a bad habit of keeping the throttle at 95%-100% whenever I am in combat, however with the Zero you can get better turn performance if you vary the power settings more.

Hope this helps.

of course that help buddy, thanks! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

gonna analize carefully your recommendations and possible others to try put then in pratic to my Zero manual.

thanks for your reply!

Wildnoob
09-14-2009, 11:58 AM
thanks for the replies!

I gonna let clear I'm not complaing about the sim or anything, just would like to know some tactics for vertical combat with the Zero you folks use, because I'm not having many sucess with my ones.

TS_Sancho
09-14-2009, 11:59 AM
I've deployed flaps, was at maximum angle of attack of my airplane


I believe you answered your own question Wildnoob.

Flaps and high angle of attack dont make for your best possible climb rates.

My guess is the wildcat may have had more E than you going into the zoom.

A tactic I will use against zeros is to get below them with a lot of speed and then catch them on the way back up, just as you described.

Remember as well its all subjective to the relative energy states of the aircraft.

The wildcat can reach a much higher dive speed which if you allow will make him the winner in the zoom climb.

All things being equal the A6M will easily best the F4U in sustained climb but you still have to gain enough seperation to keep the wildcat from getting a high angle snapshot.

Superior climbrate wont do squat to beat bullet velocities.

Hope this helps and good luck!

Wildnoob
09-14-2009, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Your first mistake, like many others in this game, is assuming that RL tactics are 'gospel'.

No doubt the WW2 pilots talk about tactics that work at a certain time, but one cannot assume that this is always the case.

no, I know that Freddie, but every case is a specific case, logic. using energy tactics with the Hellcat and the Corsair against the Zero I have magific sucess. but of course, there are parameters of performance that are drastically different.

Wildnoob
09-14-2009, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've deployed flaps, was at maximum angle of attack of my airplane


I believe you answered your own question Wildnoob.

Flaps and high angle of attack dont make for your best possible climb rates.

My guess is the wildcat may have had more E than you going into the zoom.

A tactic I will use against zeros is to get below them with a lot of speed and then catch them on the way back up, just as you described.

Remember as well its all subjective to the relative energy states of the aircraft.

The wildcat can reach a much higher dive speed which if you allow will make him the winner in the zoom climb.

All things being equal the A6M will easily best the F4U in sustained climb but you still have to gain enough seperation to keep the wildcat from getting a high angle snapshot.

Superior climbrate wont do squat to beat bullet velocities.

Hope this helps and good luck! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh, yeah...

I was expecting him to stall, I deployed flaps, but flaps cause drag, I know that, I just deploy the flaps when was as about 140 km/h, was almost without control and stalling.

but this point is very interesting sir, because I should had look for the enemy tactics against me, and not just my tactics against the enemy: big mistake from my part.

now you put my non existent brain to work, thanks buddy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

TinyTim
09-14-2009, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
For example, I was flying online and make a dive firing pass in a furball. I open up at about 450 km/h and immedetely pull up in the vertical for avoid any pursuiters, in the case F4F Wildcats.

surprisly, I spoted that a Wildcat was coming from low level fligth and get in the vertical to chase me. guess he was not very fast, as was in the furball, and I thougth: "no, I enter in the vertical in high speed, no way, he gonna stall". but not, a few seconds passed and the Wildcat was behind me and get with firing range. I've deployed flaps, was at maximum angle of attack of my airplane, and the Wildcat doesn't have show any signals of enter in stall.

Did you record and then review the situation? I'm pretty sure this wildcat was at your altitude or maybe even higher than you before the engagement (or had more E). Either that, or he cheated. There is no way a Wildcat can fly and maneouver at such low speeds where Zero can (using flaps). Is it possible to see the track of the situaton?

Scolar
09-14-2009, 12:12 PM
That spelling has made my eyes bleed.

TinyTim
09-14-2009, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Scolar:
That spelling has made my eyes bleed.

So why don't we discuss this in OP native language then? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ba5tard5word
09-14-2009, 12:20 PM
IIRC he's from Brazil so his English isn't perfect, I can understand him and he's a nice guy.

anyway...


A) fly a Wildcat and see what it can and can't do, but still remember that the AI is tricky. In fact I find that the AI for almost all American Naval planes is generally poor and lazy, especially Hellcats, but Wildcats too, so I'd try to exploit that rather than trying to outlast them in a climb.

B) Wildcats have always felt rather heavy so I wouldn't really be surprised if one could keep its energy up in a climb. They are good planes and have a good top speed for early naval WW2 planes, and IIRC the main reason they did poorly in early WW2 because American pilots were untested in combat and were not trained to take advantage of the Wildcat and to take on the Zeros.

Wildnoob
09-14-2009, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
For example, I was flying online and make a dive firing pass in a furball. I open up at about 450 km/h and immedetely pull up in the vertical for avoid any pursuiters, in the case F4F Wildcats.

surprisly, I spoted that a Wildcat was coming from low level fligth and get in the vertical to chase me. guess he was not very fast, as was in the furball, and I thougth: "no, I enter in the vertical in high speed, no way, he gonna stall". but not, a few seconds passed and the Wildcat was behind me and get with firing range. I've deployed flaps, was at maximum angle of attack of my airplane, and the Wildcat doesn't have show any signals of enter in stall.

Did you record and then review the situation? I'm pretty sure this wildcat was at your altitude or maybe even higher than you before the engagement (or had more E). Either that, or he cheated. There is no way a Wildcat can fly and maneouver at such low speeds where Zero can (using flaps). Is it possible to see the track of the situaton? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no, TinyTim, seeing those facts he probably was with probably energy as you saied, I was very wrong.

that's where my error was.

guess I meet planes with more energy then me, and for that they caugth me so easly, very, very logic.

well, the doubt with my mistakes is solved now.

Wildnoob
09-14-2009, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Scolar:
That spelling has made my eyes bleed.

oh, please forgive me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

making a review of my posts I really commited some unacceptable errors and correct then, but don't know if are the far worst ones.

if you folks don't mind to read again, if yes, it's better now?

Xiolablu3
09-14-2009, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
You misjudged the bandit's energy state.

The A6M is much more difficult to succeed with in early war than it's historical reputation would suggest because your opponents know not to turn with you. The F4F is a far better fighter in most combat situations except for 1 vs 1 duel.

Exactly.

The Zero dominated early ww2 when US and British/commonwealth pilots didnt know its strengths and weaknessses.

Once the Zero had been captured and tested, the Allies knew to keep very fast and not to close-in dogfight it.

Once pilots know a planes strengths and weaknesses they become a much less formidable opponent. If a pilot doesnt know the enemy planes weaknesses he is basically in a guessing game.

Once the Zero had been captured and tested, the order went out not to turn with it, especially at lower speeds.

Wildnoob, you simply estimated wrongly the bandits energy state, we have all done it and paid for it.

Wildnoob
09-14-2009, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Wildnoob, you simply estimated wrongly the bandits energy state, we have all done it and paid for it.

exactly.

now I know that was my error.

AllorNothing117
09-15-2009, 10:26 AM
Yours and the AI's

mortoma
09-15-2009, 10:32 AM
In a Zero?? Climb, climb and then climb more. Stay above the fray and then it's easy to dive down with an advantage. And after the dive down, climb back up in a zoom. I use the same tactic in Oscars and it works every time. Once you start those loops it's fairly easy to maintain the vertical attack mode.

BillSwagger
09-15-2009, 10:52 AM
I've always said you can't compare this sim to real life scenarios, and especially against AI.

I can say that i enjoy the P-40 and everything you describe is accurate if the planes are moving slower which is why the advantage of the Zero is really in slow turns.
The AI can also fly with perfect CEM so you are likely fighting against a foe that can make the subtle adjustments to prop pitch in a climb with the pitch increasing in proportion to how the plane slows. Depending on a human player's set up, they might only be able to adjust incrementally and with much less accuracy.

This is why i always manage to force an over shoot against AI, because they rarely slow down, and out of all the planes in the game the zero is probably one of the more accurate models, IMO. I have a lot of fun flying P-40 vs Am6 missions because they are evenly matched in most respects. The Zeros have hard hitting cannons at short range while the P-40s can lite the A6M up from a decent distance.



BTW, your english is fine. Im not even sure i can spell Portuguese, let alone speak it.

Bill

Xiolablu3
09-15-2009, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
In a Zero?? Climb, climb and then climb more. Stay above the fray and then it's easy to dive down with an advantage. And after the dive down, climb back up in a zoom. I use the same tactic in Oscars and it works every time. Once you start those loops it's fairly easy to maintain the vertical attack mode.

The problem with this in a Zero is that it has very pooor controls at high speed, especially roll rate.

K_Freddie
09-15-2009, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The problem with this in a Zero is that it has very pooor controls at high speed, especially roll rate.
I've outturned a 'sleeping' zero pilot in a p40, by zooming down and rolling into a tight opposite turn, then applying flaps to tighten the turn asap, as you only get one chance to do this.
This is similar to FW tactics.
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