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View Full Version : Me262 - shouldn't it be faster in this game?



WildeSau
12-27-2004, 08:08 AM
When I take the Me262 up against a Mustang, I am only about 50 km/h faster than it.

According to first hand accounts, it was about 120 km/h faster than anything else up in the air.

Anyone?

Thanks.

WildeSau

WildeSau
12-27-2004, 09:53 AM
what do you think?

Die_Hard1
12-27-2004, 09:56 AM
The 262 was faster than the Mustang. The ME262-1A went a max speed of 540 mph. The max speed of a P51 Mustang was 437 mph. BUT of course the American pilots were better trained than the Germans. The Mustang was the single most feared fighter of the War. The Mustang had 1650 horses...jesus.

sapre
12-27-2004, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Die_Hard1:
The 262 was faster than the Mustang. The ME262-1A went a max speed of 540 mph. The max speed of a P51 Mustang was 437 mph. BUT of course the American pilots were better trained than the Germans. The Mustang was the single most feared fighter of the War. The Mustang had 1650 horses...jesus. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"cough" lufftwhiner approching "cough"

WildeSau
12-27-2004, 10:01 AM
I don't think that the pilots flying the Me262 were not good pilots.

But anyways - my question was if the Me262 shouldn't be faster in this game since it was much faster in reality.

WildeSau

CKY_86
12-27-2004, 10:09 AM
a common trick by mustang pilots was to follow the 262 back to their base then shot them on landing

WildeSau
12-27-2004, 10:19 AM
but then they flew into the Fw-190Ds which had the duty to secure the air around the landing places exactly because of this.

There were specially formed squadrons for this.

WildeSau

CKY_86
12-27-2004, 10:31 AM
true ive just done a test & i can catch a 262 using a late war spit

VW-IceFire
12-27-2004, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WildeSau:
When I take the Me262 up against a Mustang, I am only about 50 km/h faster than it.

According to first hand accounts, it was about 120 km/h faster than anything else up in the air.

Anyone?

Thanks.

WildeSau <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are only 50kph faster? Thats VERY odd...what situation are you speaking of?

For the Me-262, it is nothing to be cruising at 600kph IAS. No problems at all. A slight dive and its easily 700kph. The trick is learning to fly a jet...acceleration is slow...very slow. You have to calculate your manuvers...once you have speed its fairly easy to keep the speed up (these jet engines like the higher speeds and reward with best possible thrust it seems) but if you drain your energy...even say to 350kph then you are meat for an attacking fighter because he can easily out accelerate and blast you.

FoolTrottel
12-27-2004, 10:34 AM
WildeSau,
Are you sure you've 'treated' the jet engines in the correct way?
They were difficult to handle, easy flamed when mistreated. In the game this is also modelled... maybe you took on some engine damage on take-off / flight? Lost some power?

(Well, I dunno, just guessing here... never got to get a 262 in the air, the engines caught fire too easily, and I do not like the jet sound.... ;-)

The_Great_Stonk
12-27-2004, 10:47 AM
somthing people dont realise with the jets in il2 is that you can damage your engine very easily without realising it, you see the overheat message ? THROTTLE BACK! its only safe to go to full throttle once your going fast enough to keep those engines cool. if you had been pushing your engines hard they may have simply been damaged and not working at their full potential, try it again, but treat your motors gently. the 262 will easily outpace a mustang once it gets going, i think your being confused by the fact that most prop fighter will out accelerate a jet at slow speeds with relative ease.

CKY_86
12-27-2004, 10:59 AM
that is a major concern in the jets, when i take of using the voltsjager (he162) i use max throttle then as soon as wheels are off ground i keep it at about 80%

WildeSau
12-27-2004, 11:02 AM
FullTrottle, I think I have treated the aircraft right since I started in the air.

WildeSau

WOLFMondo
12-27-2004, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CKY_86:
true ive just done a test & i can catch a 262 using a late war spit <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Against AI? Try it vs a human who knows what there doinghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

darkhorizon11
12-27-2004, 11:36 AM
Keep your speed up when your fighting in the 262 always stay above 450k maybe 500 even in a climb. Anything below that your just a target to a quicker accelerating prop.

Performance varies at alt. if I remember correctly the maximum TAS of a Mustang at 30,000 feet under standard conditions was about 478mph. The max TAS of the Schwalbe was about 550. About 72 mph faster, about how fast you drive on the highways in America.

Not really thatttt much when you think about it, but it is an edge since the speed barriers between the prop fighters is only a couple of mph making them equals. Like I said if you really want to burn Mustangs in a 262, keep your speed up. Also try to outclimb them as much as possible. IL2 fails to incorporate complex dive accelerations and decels. so climb! This will give you horizontal distance between your opponent but also altitude.

Thats your best bet. Good luck!

Daiichidoku
12-27-2004, 12:41 PM
Icefire was right, it just takes time to get up to speed...

Once u do, u can cruisse at 600kph+ even on relativly low throttle settings

if any prop is catchin ur jet, u have to learn how ot fly a jet better

overheat on take off in any jet is a given, but 79% throtle will always bring temps normal

88% throtle will keep it coolover 300 kph

94% throttle keeps cool over 470 kph, and wont leave telltale smoke

at 620kph, full throttl ecan be used till the fuel runs out, no overheat

takes a lot longer to overheat jets after they have been running at high speed, too, so always best in this regard, not only tactically to enter any engagement at high speed

Akwar
12-27-2004, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>American pilots were better trained than the Germans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Youve got to be joking,

If that was the case US pilots would lead the way in aircraft shot down during the warhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gifNow thats not to say US pilots werent good you just cant compare the two against each other as you described.

WildeSau
12-27-2004, 12:59 PM
thanks to all.

Did I understand that right:

1) start gaining speed by applying 80% throttel
2) wait until it gained speed of about 500 km/ and give 95% throttle
3) then wait until gained more than 600 km/h and give full throttle?

WildeSau

faustnik
12-27-2004, 01:15 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Akwar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>American pilots were better trained than the Germans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Youve got to be joking,

If that was the case US pilots would lead the way in aircraft shot down during the warhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gifNow thats not to say US pilots werent good you just cant compare the two against each other as you described. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What he means is that by the time the Me262 was around that the average American pilot was far better trained than the average LW pilot, which is an understatement if anything.

VMF-214_HaVoK
12-27-2004, 01:42 PM
ME262 is very fast once you get it moving. You must remember that it had extremely poor acceleration. For this reason you want to stay away from E bleeding manuvers. Because once you bleed off your energy the Mustang will catch it quickly. It could also turn inside it. And pilot accounts also confirm that the Mustang could stay with and catch a manuvering 262 in a dive.

VMF-214_HaVoK
12-27-2004, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Akwar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>American pilots were better trained than the Germans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Youve got to be joking,

If that was the case US pilots would lead the way in aircraft shot down during the warhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gifNow thats not to say US pilots werent good you just cant compare the two against each other as you described. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The pilot experience debate goes both ways. It is funny how the arguement works for axis but not allied. Early in the war Axis clearly had more experience then Allied pilots. But for some reason allied fans can not use this arguement when dismissing Axis victories due to that fact. But it seems ok for axis fans to use the same arguement stating that late in the war Allied had more experienced pilots to dismiss Allied victories. Quite a double standard IMO.

p1ngu666
12-27-2004, 01:48 PM
ya but didnt lw jets goto good pilots? experienced... some did anyways

i think jets produce thrust, but it somehow works better at high speed than a prop, which maybe past its effeciency. itll push u forward better at high speed, whatever.

WOLFMondo
12-27-2004, 01:54 PM
I thought 262's were only given to the best pilot in the best units.

WildeSau
12-27-2004, 03:20 PM
so is it right that you first have to get some speed without going full throttle and then, when having achieved around 500km/h, then go full throttle got get most out of the engines?

regarding the pilot debate - I don't think that the US pilots were better - they just had more and could be trained longer before sent to war.

At the begining of the war, the German pilots were certainly the best since the could make real "training" in Spain.

At the end, they were sent to war after only a few hours in the planes the had to fight with and therefore were not as good trained as their US counterparts.

But certainly only good pilots were assigned to an Me262.

WildeSau

p1ngu666
12-27-2004, 04:54 PM
ya they trimmed trainning down
like they couldnt fly on instriments (kinda usefull in clouds)

allied pilots much better prepaired to kope with things

WUAF_Badsight
12-27-2004, 05:35 PM
last time i tested the Me-262 . . . . it hits its proper speed

just its useless over 7.5K

last time i checked (v3.0) , the Mustang got a slight speed boost to its top speed (was too slow by 20 kmh @ 7K in AEP)

VW-IceFire
12-27-2004, 05:39 PM
The German perspective on the opponents they faced was apparently this (I forget where I read this).

Their most capable opponents (this is speaking earlier on in the war 1940-42) were the RAF pilots. They regarded them with a fair bit of respect after the Battle of Britain.

Their second most capable were the Americans. They weren't as highly regarded as this point (most USAAF squadrons were well trained but not experienced at this point).

In third was the run of the mill Russian pilots. However, they placed the VVS Guard pilots (with the badge emblem) up there with the RAF pilots. These things changed throughout the war...German training got shorter and produced less capable pilots while RAF/USAAF and presumably the VVS training got better. The Luftwaffe pilots by the end were often running into battle against superior numbers and superior experience with almost no hours behind their birds. The exception was the rare experten which were just as good as their best allied counterparts.

Its hard to make a generalized statement that X sides pilots were better when the situation changed back and forth during the wars course. Certainly by the end the average Luftwaffe pilot was fairly poorly trained...but there were lots of experienced pilots still on hand too. I don't have all of the details on this subject...but I do know enough that "the best" swapped hands many times during the war.

Back to the Me-262. Here's procedure for flying:

1) On takeoff, use 90% throttle to get upto speed.
2) Once airborne, throttle back to 80% or 70%.
3) Once the speed kicks up...you can increase the throttle to somewhere between 70%-95%.
4) Once you have gained cruise speed you can throttle pretty far back to 60% or less.

This works for me. Even at 60-70% power you can reach 600kph IAS. It just takes a while...the key is acceleration...you don't have alot. You do have awesome speed but virtually any prop can catch you until you start really going. Don't do anything to loose speed in the combat zone!

Revolter_
12-27-2004, 05:49 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Die_hard1,

You ain't done your homework dude... I suggest reading ; "German Aces of the Russian Front: by John Weal.Osprey. Also check out any of the LW Squadron websites and check the number of kills per fighter pilot. Both Allied and Axis training programs were good...well, probably not the ruskies in the early days of WWII.

note: Erich Hartmann. LW Experten. check his totals !

Akwar
12-27-2004, 07:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Revolter_:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gifnote: Erich Hartmann. LW Experten. check his totals ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup,

And god rest his soul.Now one will EVER beat his score.

F4U_Flyer
12-27-2004, 09:38 PM
# of kills is only relevant if they are against us or raf planes as most of the other countries didnt have near the quality of pilots the previous 2 had. As for the russians i may be wrong on this but i believe they were average but had quanity over the germans leading to there ability to best the luftwaffe on the eastern front.

clint-ruin
12-27-2004, 09:46 PM
Training is not the same as combat experience. Two different things.

VVS pilots after the initial wipeout got thrown into combat against veterans, with as little as 10 hours flight training, and in some cases without understanding what half the controls in the cockpit were for.

LW sortie rates and the fact that the size of the opposing force allowed them a very high frequency of live combat encounters [by comparison to allied pilots] gave them lots of combat time. But towards the end the initial training phase got paired further and further back, and the quality of the training suffered due to experienced pilots being tied to their guns rather than rotating back to training regiments - at least nowhere near as often as say USAAF/RAF/USN etc pilots became trainers. This is not good news for the attrition rate of newbie pilots, which they couldn't afford to lose in the first place, going up against the numbers they had to fight.

Loki-PF
12-27-2004, 11:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Revolter_:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Die_hard1,

You ain't done your homework dude... I suggest reading ; "German Aces of the Russian Front: by John Weal.Osprey. Also check out any of the LW Squadron websites and check the number of kills per fighter pilot. Both Allied and Axis training programs were good...well, probably not the ruskies in the early days of WWII.

note: Erich Hartmann. LW Experten. check his totals ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Revolter,

You should read a little history yourself there pal! American pilots were rotated to the rear after X amount of combat hours to train new pilots, regardless of how many kills they got.

Also if a plane was shot down but the pilot not killed and he was a German, he could often hitch a ride back to the base and climb into another plane. In fact they had to or be shot for desertion after watching their families being shot or worse by the Gestapo.

Another reason for the disparity in number of kills would be that serious action on the western front against the Germans didn't start until well into 42 for the Americans. The Germans had been fighting the Russians and Brits for years.

These are the main reasons that there are such a large disparity in numbers of kills. But believe whatever you want!

p1ngu666
12-27-2004, 11:42 PM
i agree with clint, experience and training are different. a well trained bomber crew in the raf (they where all a high standard) would fly for 8-10 hours and in the dark, had pretty good acuracy in getting to the roughly the target area, and get back. i u think its easy try holding a compass bearing to 1/2 degrees, reaching X point at such a time, and managing engine failure. in fb we dont have wind either.

now that would be entirely beyond a day fighter newbie lw pilot. he could do none of those things any better than we could, argueably worse.

in my guy gibbson book, one of his first ops they took 2000lbs cos they had no idea what would happen. they had never flown with a bombload...
the bombload did increase a fair amount later, btw.

later on he loses a engine on a raid, so they bomb from a lower level.

btw u gotta give credit to russians, they turned around the air war, despite constant pressure.

i think lw stopped instrument flying and navigation (or cut that down), anything they could.

if u cant fly on insturments u cant fly thru cloud/at night..

civildog
12-28-2004, 01:37 AM
All I know is that Chuck Yeager said , "The first time I ever saw a jet I shot it down." That was in a P-51 against a 262. The first credited kill of one, too. Knocked it down while it was on a landing approach.

Like the majority of late war German pilots, 262 pilots got minimal training in the use of their planes. The engines burnt out after very little use because the Germans were running out of skilled labor and metals. They had to be replaced frequently and they didn't allow the pilots to get much non-combat time in them accordingly.

Galland's squadron was probably the exception, but it only proves the rule. Late in the war good German pilots were on the Eastern Front (like Hartmann) so they could try to keep the Russians at bay. The experienced ones on the Western Front were far and few between.

The Doras over the airfields didn't help all that much: most 262s downed were while on a landing approach.

clint-ruin
12-28-2004, 03:27 AM
Pingu wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>btw u gotta give credit to russians, they turned around the air war, despite constant pressure.

i think lw stopped instrument flying and navigation (or cut that down), anything they could.

if u cant fly on insturments u cant fly thru cloud/at night.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. I should mention before someone flames me that the 10 hour figure was only for some of the training camps - at the same time as this was happening, other groups were spending up to over a year training pilots up for the action. They had enough man [and woman] power to contemplate setting up two entirely different streams of pilots to fill up the ranks - one of warm bodys to at least get some aircraft flying, one building up a more experienced core.

Not a lot of fun if you're inducted into the meat-shield training scheme though.

WOLFMondo
12-28-2004, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CivilDog:
The Doras over the airfields didn't help all that much: most 262s downed were while on a landing approach. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flak corridors did allot more damage than those dora's.

p1ngu666
12-28-2004, 07:01 AM
i didnt know that clint http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
guess its what id do :\

i think it took 2 years or so to become a raf bomb pilot/nav/bomb aimer/wireless.
that includes leave, traveling to canada etc.

and yeah wolf, the flak musta got alot of planes.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-28-2004, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CivilDog:
Like the majority of late war German pilots, 262 pilots got minimal training in the use of their planes.

Galland's squadron was probably the exception, but it only proves the rule.

The Doras over the airfields didn't help all that much: most 262s downed were while on a landing approach. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well that's not right.
the first 262 squads were actually reequipped fighter-Bomber / Bomber - Units because Hitler wanted to use the 262 as "quick-strike-bomber".
however these pilots had no training for air to air combat (was a B17 Pilot trained for that?) and they simply couldn't help themselves once the enemy was behind them so the only option was running. (and you have to imagine that overall training at that time in the German AF was pretty poor)
And once they had to land the enemy closed up again, they needed a long distance to get slower in that bird, once slowed down they couldn't accelerate quickly enough and the 262's were shot to pices.

The FIGHER-UNITS equipped with these planes were actually consisting of the Veterans, the ones who were experianced (in air2air combat)
However the landing problem still remained and so the Platzschutzstaffeln (lowlevelbasedefence-squads) were founded.
And they were effective (because Veterans too!), USAAF-Piots got warned not to try messing around with them.