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CRUDFACE
12-14-2011, 12:36 AM
Okay, I know Ubisoft doesn't want a complete stealth game like Splinter Cell and I respect that, but this game kind went on the premise hat Assassins were at least mildly hidden.

These days they are very open, like extremely open.

Ezio always was. Seeing as they had posters of him, he did public speaking in his Assassin robes and none of the npc's looked remotely like him. And he wears so many ornaments and high priced armor that he does stand out a bit too much.

And now they're having full on war in the streets.

Does anybody else think the Assassins are far to open?

LordWolv
12-14-2011, 12:39 AM
I do think they are too notorious. But then again, they always were. Even in the original game; the most secretive, the assassins were in full possession of a darn castle, not particularly secretive, mm?

LightRey
12-14-2011, 01:01 AM
They're secretive about their goals and the scale of their order. In ACR they're clearly playing the "role" of a gang. That way they seem like some cult or a group of delinquents (similar to the Byzantines in the game) instead of a well established, almost global order.

CRUDFACE
12-14-2011, 01:01 AM
Lol, very true! But that was when History had them down as actually being there. And it was after Altair's time that they were supposed to be more underground instead.

I think they're idea was supposed to show how they go more and more underground.

On a side note, i feel like your profile pic is actually talking to me.

@Lightrey: been a while, huh? Actually, the heralds as well as guards and such talk about how you're anything BUT a gang. As they talk of the assassins and such in open crowds. Also, people who are picked up and trained by the assassins already know who the assassins are.

As some say how you want them to do something good with their lives and such. So they know that Assassins are anything but a gang.

Oh, yeah, and gangs don't enter full on warfare with tanks and soldiers right in the middle of the street. while they're not as well funded as the Templars, they have military weapons, traps and access to Barricades equipped with things like Greek fire and cannons.

deadly_thought
12-14-2011, 02:00 AM
ACR is a stupid it completely throws the storyline out the window with respect to what youre talking about

after altair they went underground in this they are the friendly neighbourhood bad boys fighting
with cannons in the streets

a long way from the days of altair who was well hidden and discreet he did live in a castle yes but they maintained secrecy and mystique and were unseen

they were those mysterious killers from masyaf

in ACR ur nothing more than a 14th century spiderman with friends

taking over cities?? massive street battles with cannons?? mobile flamethrowing machines?? rifles??? grenades??

'we work in the dark to serve to the light' << pull the other one mate

LightRey
12-14-2011, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by t260z:
Lol, very true! But that was when History had them down as actually being there. And it was after Altair's time that they were supposed to be more underground instead.

I think they're idea was supposed to show how they go more and more underground.

On a side note, i feel like your profile pic is actually talking to me.

@Lightrey: been a while, huh? Actually, the heralds as well as guards and such talk about how you're anything BUT a gang. As they talk of the assassins and such in open crowds. Also, people who are picked up and trained by the assassins already know who the assassins are.

As some say how you want them to do something good with their lives and such. So they know that Assassins are anything but a gang.

Oh, yeah, and gangs don't enter full on warfare with tanks and soldiers right in the middle of the street. while they're not as well funded as the Templars, they have military weapons, traps and access to Barricades equipped with things like Greek fire and cannons.
Eh, yes they do. Ever heard of gang wars? Those have been around since the Romans, if not before.

The common man would have seen no difference between the kind of group the Assassins were and the kind of group the Byzantines were, except for how good they were to the people. That's why the Assassins were generally more popular in Constantinople.

CRUDFACE
12-14-2011, 02:48 AM
deadly_thought: while I don't want to call the AC series entirely stupid, they are when it comes to this, lol.

Works in the dark? even Batman didn't wear his cape until night when it was better to sneak around. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif


Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
Lol, very true! But that was when History had them down as actually being there. And it was after Altair's time that they were supposed to be more underground instead.

I think they're idea was supposed to show how they go more and more underground.

On a side note, i feel like your profile pic is actually talking to me.

@Lightrey: been a while, huh? Actually, the heralds as well as guards and such talk about how you're anything BUT a gang. As they talk of the assassins and such in open crowds. Also, people who are picked up and trained by the assassins already know who the assassins are.

As some say how you want them to do something good with their lives and such. So they know that Assassins are anything but a gang.

Oh, yeah, and gangs don't enter full on warfare with tanks and soldiers right in the middle of the street. while they're not as well funded as the Templars, they have military weapons, traps and access to Barricades equipped with things like Greek fire and cannons.
Eh, yes they do. Ever heard of gang wars? Those have been around since the Romans, if not before.

The common man would have seen no difference between the kind of group the Assassins were and the kind of group the Byzantines were, except for how good they were to the people. That's why the Assassins were generally more popular in Constantinople. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't have to be sarcastic about it. And yes, I know about gang wars and how much they stand out based on membership, money and weapons. to say Ezio is more than just the leader of a gang.

But what you're missing out is how much money and resources they have as well as fighting basically all around the world. And the heralds and other people know them as Assassins, not one person outs you as a gang or just a petty gang member.

And what gang had basically the same equipment as the military and also, seeing as the Byzantines specifically targeted them, they are more than just a gang.

They even recognized Ezio by face and just word of mouth when Ezio was near and people asked him to help him out in Brotherhood.

Especially in AC2's dlc when Ezio stands in front of a crowd after killing someone and gives lectures on being your own man. Based on what we know and what we've seen, Assassins are more like terrorists than gangs.

But can you show like some proof that people thought of them like that? gang wars of that magnitude didn't happen and when they escalated it had go through a cooldown of sorts. Ezio is always fighting.

ProdiGurl
12-14-2011, 02:49 AM
Well you have to figure that when Ezio comes into town, Yusuf's Assassin network already have been working in the city & they all openly wear one set of clothing.
ANYONE wearing identical "uniforms" in public is going to be noticed as a group of some sort.

The Heralds have been out ranting against Assassins too...
I don't see how they can avoid detection by the people & clearly the Byzantines identify them immediately.

One last thought - I think that if Assassins are known by the people to some degree in some areas, it doesn't mean they're wide open everywhere else or that they should leave the area.

Do enough assassinations in one city and you can naturally expect some notoriety.

This is another issue where I believe that this is where we have to understand that this is a GAME.
It's not going to be SO realistic that it hinders fun gameplay & forces us to do all our assassinations in a dark closet type of thing.

I allow AC room to loosely create a good game that isn't So realistically anal that it makes gameplay essentially boring.

CRUDFACE
12-14-2011, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by ProdiGurl:
Well you have to figure that when Ezio comes into town, Yusuf's Assassin network already have been working in the city & they all openly wear one set of clothing.
ANYONE wearing identical "uniforms" in public is going to be noticed as a group of some sort.

The Heralds have been out ranting against Assassins too...
I don't see how they can avoid detection by the people & clearly the Byzantines identify them immediately.

One last thought - I think that if Assassins are known by the people to some degree in some areas, it doesn't mean they're wide open everywhere else or that they should leave the area.

Do enough assassinations in one city and you can naturally expect some notoriety.

This is another issue where I believe that this is where we have to understand that this is a GAME.
It's not going to be SO realistic that it hinders fun gameplay & forces us to do all our assassinations in a dark closet type of thing.

I allow AC room to loosely create a good game that isn't So realistically anal that it makes gameplay essentially boring.

Exactly, that's where I'm coming from. I know as a game it has to somehow rely on suspension of disbelief, but since AC is one of the only games around that has a story these days, it sucks that the hidden aspect of the series is dwindling away and probably crushed.

But I was more interested on who was thinking the same thing as me. Just happy I wasn't alone in thinking like this.

MaKaVeLiTL
12-14-2011, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Isaac500:
I do think they are too notorious. But then again, they always were. Even in the original game; the most secretive, the assassins were in full possession of a darn castle, not particularly secretive, mm?
Why do you have LightRey's twitter and facebook in your sig?

ProdiGurl
12-14-2011, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ProdiGurl:
Well you have to figure that when Ezio comes into town, Yusuf's Assassin network already have been working in the city & they all openly wear one set of clothing.
ANYONE wearing identical "uniforms" in public is going to be noticed as a group of some sort.

The Heralds have been out ranting against Assassins too...
I don't see how they can avoid detection by the people & clearly the Byzantines identify them immediately.

One last thought - I think that if Assassins are known by the people to some degree in some areas, it doesn't mean they're wide open everywhere else or that they should leave the area.

Do enough assassinations in one city and you can naturally expect some notoriety.

This is another issue where I believe that this is where we have to understand that this is a GAME.
It's not going to be SO realistic that it hinders fun gameplay & forces us to do all our assassinations in a dark closet type of thing.

I allow AC room to loosely create a good game that isn't So realistically anal that it makes gameplay essentially boring.

Exactly, that's where I'm coming from. I know as a game it has to somehow rely on suspension of disbelief, but since AC is one of the only games around that has a story these days, it sucks that the hidden aspect of the series is dwindling away and probably crushed.

But I was more interested on who was thinking the same thing as me. Just happy I wasn't alone in thinking like this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Well I'm just wondering why AC is the poster child for Realism in the first place.
I think people assume that because AC includes historic fact and details to the game, that it's also got to be realistic in many other things.

But in gaming I just don't think it works.
Including weaponry options. I don't know if real Assassins only use blades . . but hey, the bombs are fun, I like poison darts & the crossbow. I'm not sure why that should be so limited.
Even movies have to resort to unrealistic things to make it interesting.

But in one way I do think there's a point, the game itself states that they "work in the dark to serve the light" - well, ... that sorta means they aren't exactly having matching T-shirts made that say ASSASSIN on their backs.
lol
But . . I think they do well enough to stay incognito. Most of who does the open killing is us as gamers.
I could do alot less killing in the open than I do.

Noble6
12-14-2011, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by ProdiGurl:

Even movies have to resort to unrealistic things to make it interesting.

.
But movies (and games) don't always need those kind of things to be interesting. In fact hollywood movies are often annoying because they are so full of unrealistic things. I hope that if next AC were in lets say... French revolution assassins would be less open.

ProdiGurl
12-14-2011, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Noble6:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ProdiGurl:

Even movies have to resort to unrealistic things to make it interesting.

.
But movies (and games) don't always need those kind of things to be interesting. In fact hollywood movies are often annoying because they are so full of unrealistic things. I hope that if next AC were in lets say... French revolution assassins would be less open. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya that's true but I'm about positive that into the 4th game of AC, you'd have people complaining about only being able to use blades or what-not.
Anything of a realistic limitation wouldn't be ok 4 games later.

Dagio12
12-14-2011, 09:46 AM
I will agree to an extent that Brotherhood and Revelations kind of make the Assassins seem a lot more open then the previous games. The only thing in Revelations that really makes this stand out is the Den Defense game IMO, having a huge open confict with guns, barricades... etc. When I am not doing den defense however, I definitely feel a lot more hidden in Revelations... almost like the original, because I really try to avoid fights with guards, I walk amongst the crowd and try to strike with stealth. Its inevitable that after a few fights and assassinations that the heralds will be making remarks about assassins, as someone or something randomly assassinating someone will most likely be dubbed as an assassin. I think its fair that because of the brotherhood growing in size within the city because the war is only getting larger, people will start to recognize these two parties in conflict with each other, however, the true intentions of either party is probably well hidden to the public.

As far as the crowd is concerned, there is somekind of "civil" war between two parties that seem to be going on, but I dont think they identify the Assassins as Assassins... just a group of well trained people killing other people.. if that makes sense. I also think the fact that 'WE' as players know every second of what Ezio is doing, along with the fact that we know about the brotherhood and what they are up to might make it seem as though everything is way more open. Whereas someone in the public, as a passerby-er, may only see a hooded man pass right by them, or witness a small fight across the street, and then run for home. The assassins try to strike quickly and disappear and some people may never even witness it, but since we see every second of it, it seems like more.

I will agree that renovating every part of the city, and the way den defense is set up, makes it seem a little much tho. I always liked how in AC2 you only worried about your villa, not the whole cities, your presence in the city was merely to take out targets, not really take over the city, and I think that goes along way with making assassins have too much of that 'celebrity' status. I think expanding to the whole city is a little too much.

phoenix-force411
12-14-2011, 05:25 PM
OMFG! All of you who think that the renovating meta-game system and the whole stealth thing disappearing is stupid, you are completely WRONG!!!! In ACB, the Borgias brought there influence in and Rome was corrupted. The Borgia influence did not allow shops to open. Only some were. Ezio took them down to destroy the Borgia influence in the area so that he may renovate shops. Also, the Assassin Order was in a weak state. By making Rome their main Assassin HQ after the villa was destroyed, the order was restored. Duh! He rid of the Borgias influence in Rome.

In ACR, he left Rome, and went to go search and learn the wisdom of Altair. Yusuf STATES that the Assassins have a strong and bigger presence in Constantinople. Due to the Byzantines ruling over the Dens, the surrounding shops within its influence could not open nor could they be renovated!!! And the Byzantines were templars. The Den defense has its own story and purpose to it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif There's a back story to everything, and renovating just a villa doesn't expand very far, plus, there's not much to do after renovating one freaking building!!!

Saying that the game now lacks of stealth, you are COMPLETELY WRONG!!! You approach situations the way you want to, if you wish for a stealthy approach, you go stealth with it. If you want an aggressive approach, you go head-on! Gosh people! Think before you speak, think thoroughly and analyze!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

ProdiGurl
12-14-2011, 05:34 PM
Thanks for the mention of why Ezio was buying up the real estate, I had mentioned that in another thread somewhere yesterday . . I think perceptions might me off where Ezio's reasoning is concerned at times.
Maybe because he's such a strong character, things get lost in his bravado?

But his whole motive in ACB was the Liberation of Rome.

dxsxhxcx
12-14-2011, 05:56 PM
just because den defence and the renovation of the city have a back story this doesn't mean they're good features (MY OPINION)...

DavisP92
12-14-2011, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by ProdiGurl:
Do enough assassinations in one city and you can naturally expect some notoriety.

This is another issue where I believe that this is where we have to understand that this is a GAME.
It's not going to be SO realistic that it hinders fun gameplay & forces us to do all our assassinations in a dark closet type of thing.

I allow AC room to loosely create a good game that isn't So realistically anal that it makes gameplay essentially boring.


you'd have people complaining about only being able to use blades or what-not.
Anything of a realistic limitation wouldn't be ok 4 games later.

that's one reason why i want AC3 to have more then one city.

Also, I don't know what u mean when u say realistic. But to me AC1 was realistic and fun and made sense. While ACR, yea is fun, but it's not realistic at all when compared to to AC1. I like AC1 over all the other games as for story and how it plays. Making a game realistic doesn't make it boring at all

And i haven't seen anyone complain about only using blades, and realistic limitations are always good when they are applied correctly. example: Want the game harder, then limit the amount of health u get from medicine.

Animuses
12-14-2011, 06:33 PM
They are way too open in Brotherhood and Revelations. It's ridiculous how open they are in Brotherhood. I understand they were open in the first two game, but they were open in their own cities.

Originally posted by dxsxhxcx:
just because den defence and the renovation of the city have a back story this doesn't mean they're good features (MY OPINION)... Those features are crap.

LightRey
12-14-2011, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
Don't have to be sarcastic about it. And yes, I know about gang wars and how much they stand out based on membership, money and weapons. to say Ezio is more than just the leader of a gang.

But what you're missing out is how much money and resources they have as well as fighting basically all around the world. And the heralds and other people know them as Assassins, not one person outs you as a gang or just a petty gang member.

And what gang had basically the same equipment as the military and also, seeing as the Byzantines specifically targeted them, they are more than just a gang.

They even recognized Ezio by face and just word of mouth when Ezio was near and people asked him to help him out in Brotherhood.

Especially in AC2's dlc when Ezio stands in front of a crowd after killing someone and gives lectures on being your own man. Based on what we know and what we've seen, Assassins are more like terrorists than gangs.

But can you show like some proof that people thought of them like that? gang wars of that magnitude didn't happen and when they escalated it had go through a cooldown of sorts. Ezio is always fighting.
That wasn't sarcasm. Sarcasm would've involved me saying something I clearly didn't mean. I was just emphasizing. Of course Ezio is more than just the leader of a gang, but to the people he would not have stood out much from the rest of the assassins.

Practically nobody in those days except traders and politicians would've even set foot outside the borders of their cities, let alone that they would've been aware of any kind of international organization such as the Assassins, especially since that is one piece of information they have always kept hidden. A regular person would not have even been able to know that there was even something resembling the assassins of their city in other cities. Remember, these are the days when people thought that people in China had extra limbs or heads. Of course the heralds called them assassins. That's not because they knew of the order, that's because by then the name assassin has simply become a word for people who commit similar murders. Besides, the one time in ACR that it is untranslated and spoken in Turkish (I think), they do not use a term resembling the word "assassin" at all, so to assume that every time someone uses the term "assassin" when it is simply translated by the animus, would be wrong.

Not really. Gangs in those days were basically small armies. It was not uncommon at all to be walking around in full plate armor. In basically every city there were mercenaries/bodyguards for hire too. The only difference between a regular gang and the Byzantines is that they had an ulterior, political motive and that they had strong ties to the Templars, which was actually not that uncommon for gangs in those days (except the Templar bit of course).

Only the high-ranking members did. The regular Templars just knew he was an Assassin and had probably heard only rumors at best. They were Templars after all, so of course they knew. All Templars know of the Assassins, but only high ranking ones, such as Manuel, Shahkulu and Ahmed would truly have been (somewhat) aware of the scale of both orders.

I assume you are referring to the Bonfire of the Vanities. As is clear from what can be heard at the beginning of said DLC, he was basically known in Florence as "The Assassin" and he seemed to be more of a myth than anything else. The people show no sign of having been aware of there being an order or even a small group of Assassins right in their city. Ezio's speech in the end is the speech of a man nobody truly knows. They were likely aware that he was "The Assassin", but nothing more than that.

Proof? How about the fact that in Project Legacy, if you connect it with Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood and use it to unlock the extra PL missions, there is one in particular that accurately describes how hard the order works to keep itself secret. They went as far as to threaten someone who thought their fight was just and found that showing the people just what the assassins were responsible for would help their cause.

Either way I'm not the one with the burden of proof here. You think Ezio and the order are not hidden, while as I've described every argument you've brought up to support it could (more) easily be used to contradict your very point, making it moot. You're the one with the theory, so you're the one with the burden of evidence.

Sarari
12-14-2011, 08:31 PM
I've been saying this for such a long time haha. The assassins don't really follow the rules of the creed anymore. They're pretty much discrete, as in you can easily tell them apart from others, over than having to blend in with the crowd.

Yusuf even said that everybody knows that the assassins decided to help Constantinople in the beginning when he was giving you a tour lol.

@Isaac Well, they were located in the middle of nowhere in really high mountains. I'm pretty sure it wasn't to difficult to find them but, how else would other assassins find their way back lol.

CRUDFACE
12-15-2011, 01:32 AM
@Lightrey: you said allot, so don't want to make a gigantic quote pyramid and will just respond like this. Sorry I took so long to reply though, was busy.

-They wouldn't have been aware? People don't just go ignoring something as big as a group of "gangs" who seem to be killing officials, nobles, and high valued Templars. also, they raided the an entire area towards the end of the game.

Also Darby McDevitt (how do you spell his name?) even said how the heralds changed from looking for Ezio or another assassin to "Assassins" instead.

-you keep saying it's not uncommon to walk around in armor. It is uncommon to walk around with expensive armor, especially those bearing crests and such such as the assassins. Especially since they had posters of Ezio and the fact that nobody but him and people like him wore those robes.

-Actually,

-with Bonfire of the Vanities, yeah, you assumed right, I wasn't going so much into the fact of multiple assassins, but I was talking about how everyone knew Ezio was the assassin. With the descriptions given out by the heralds, posters for the face. And Ezio does attract attention. go ahead, bug a guard and he'll talk to you, tell you how weird you look and let you go for some reason.

I was pointing out how he stands out and shows himself off too much, noting his lack of stealth.

-I know about PL, those were in Brotherhood to, remember? While I was happy they tried to stop it, flaunting their power, wardrobe, skills and such, wasn't really concealing it.

Also just saying, in PL, they need to get their stories straightened out.

-Just squeezing this in, but since "The Fall" is cannon and a man remembered Nikolai more than a decade later, I'm showing that up as proof that people do remember him. And one of the things you said before was how people attacked by Ezio wouldn't remember much beyond the hood, then all they would have to do is see one poster.

-Every argument I've brought up? Okay every time someone brings something like that up against the series, most of the time, all you every say is, "no, you're wrong" in a slightly different way.

Such as:

when you said there's a good reason for vidic attacking the assassins with guards armed only with batons.

Or how guards can't swim because of their armor, but even agile guard who run faster than Ezio at times and wear less than him.

Edit: Also, having your main headquarters in the city where people can see you going in and out of your lair doesn't help either.

ProdiGurl
12-15-2011, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by Sarari:
I've been saying this for such a long time haha. The assassins don't really follow the rules of the creed anymore. They're pretty much discrete, as in you can easily tell them apart from others, over than having to blend in with the crowd.


Well here again, you have the assassins in their assassin garb - when you wear HOODS you already stand out... same with matching clothing of any kind.

People were loving the face masks for the Recruits in ACR. I love that too, but don't you think that stands out a little in any crowd?

Then I was reading some complaints that Ezio's garb didn't look Kool enough - so he was blending in TOO much & to fix that, it was boring...

I'm sorry but there's no winning for losing with this issue.

Plus Den Defense comes to the Assassins by the Templars, it's not being instigated by the Order - they're having to defend territory so it's not like they're electing to out themselves .

Most of what they do is discreet but definitely not all of it.

LightRey
12-15-2011, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by t260z:
@Lightrey: you said allot, so don't want to make a gigantic quote pyramid and will just respond like this. Sorry I took so long to reply though, was busy.

-They wouldn't have been aware? People don't just go ignoring something as big as a group of "gangs" who seem to be killing officials, nobles, and high valued Templars. also, they raided the an entire area towards the end of the game.

Also Darby McDevitt (how do you spell his name?) even said how the heralds changed from looking for Ezio or another assassin to "Assassins" instead.

-you keep saying it's not uncommon to walk around in armor. It is uncommon to walk around with expensive armor, especially those bearing crests and such such as the assassins. Especially since they had posters of Ezio and the fact that nobody but him and people like him wore those robes.

-Actually,

-with Bonfire of the Vanities, yeah, you assumed right, I wasn't going so much into the fact of multiple assassins, but I was talking about how everyone knew Ezio was the assassin. With the descriptions given out by the heralds, posters for the face. And Ezio does attract attention. go ahead, bug a guard and he'll talk to you, tell you how weird you look and let you go for some reason.

I was pointing out how he stands out and shows himself off too much, noting his lack of stealth.

-I know about PL, those were in Brotherhood to, remember? While I was happy they tried to stop it, flaunting their power, wardrobe, skills and such, wasn't really concealing it.

Also just saying, in PL, they need to get their stories straightened out.

-Just squeezing this in, but since "The Fall" is cannon and a man remembered Nikolai more than a decade later, I'm showing that up as proof that people do remember him. And one of the things you said before was how people attacked by Ezio wouldn't remember much beyond the hood, then all they would have to do is see one poster.

-Every argument I've brought up? Okay every time someone brings something like that up against the series, most of the time, all you every say is, "no, you're wrong" in a slightly different way.

Such as:

when you said there's a good reason for vidic attacking the assassins with guards armed only with batons.

Or how guards can't swim because of their armor, but even agile guard who run faster than Ezio at times and wear less than him.

Edit: Also, having your main headquarters in the city where people can see you going in and out of your lair doesn't help either.
-Not so much ignoring as not noticing much. Officials and nobles are exactly the kind of targets (cult-like) gangs target besides rival gangs. We're not talking about gangs like the Crips and the Bloods or something. In those days gangs fought for actual influence over districts. When they took an area of the city they also took control over the shops, security, etc. That is exactly what the Assassins and the Templars are doing. Yes, Assassins, as in, the "gang" of assassins. They just have to spread the news they're given. They wouldn't have been aware at all about the organization itself. They would have had no idea of their involvement in any events in other cities.

-No, it really isn't. Especially not for those wearing crests. Those wearing crests in those days would have either been nobles or members of a church or cult. Both nobles and cult members could often be found carrying weapons and if nobles took to the streets, they often had mercenary bodyguards as well. Where did you get this ridiculous idea that people didn't carry weapons or armor in those days? There were people like that everywhere. Not to carry armor or a weapon was much too dangerous.

-Of course they knew. They don't care much about the people being aware of the assassins. It's not about being completely hidden, it's about being just open enough that the things you want to keep hidden (such as the fact that it's more than just a localized group) stay hidden. That is hiding in plain sight.
The people would not have known more of him than what they heard from the stories of 20 years before. In the end, all they knew was what he looked like, that he was an assassin and that he had friends. That is nothing. They didn't know they were active in other cities, that they were part of a secret order or that they were fighting another secret order. All these important things were always completely unknown to the people.

Ezio is stealthy enough. He wasn't showing off, he was trying to teach the people a lesson (hence his speech). He's always has a good reason for breaking cover and nobody other than the Templars and those closely involved, such as Leonardo and Suleiman, has shown any signs of being aware that the brotherhood was any more than a cult/gang.

-Not much point hiding who you are if the guy's already aware of it all. They needed to intimidate him, so showing their affiliation would be useful.

-Yes, the occasional overly impressed individual that actually met a specific assassin could remember said assassin after a period of years. However, things like that rarely happen and even when they do it is unlikely it will have an impact on anything serious.

-I say you're wrong, because you're just saying that you're right. You barely go into detail with your arguments, most of them are more statements about things that you say happened in the games and you claim to know the exact ways and reasons they happened, even though they weren't at all explained in such detail at any point.
You're also quick to jump to the assumption that people for some reason can easily notice everything around them, which is utter bull. If anything is true, it's almost the exact opposite. Human minds aren't built to monitor, they are built to innovate, to think of solutions to problems. You have come with not a single piece of evidence regarding your theory that people would have noticed something like that. No research, no scientific terms, not even a wikipedia page. All you've come with is stuff like "I think I would have noticed that", which, from a scientific perspective, contributes about as much as informing everyone that you need to clip your toenails.

I did explain why there is a good reason for Vidic to have his guards attack with batons. First of all they're not part of the military or police. To have guards running around with guns not on Abstergo premises would've raised much suspicion from the authorities.
Vidic also wasn't aware of the fact that Desmond would be there, let alone any assassins at all. Abstergo isn't the maffia. Those people were in many ways not more than mere security guards.

You really have a bad memory don't you? We already know that it's possible to swim without armor. Ezio's speed is somewhat unrealistic, but that's simply there for gameplay reasons. As for the guards being unable to swim, well duh. As I said back then most people (except maybe in Venice) will not have known how to swim, so them falling in the (likely cold) water with clothes and armor on would have been equal do a death sentence. Let's also not forget that if the armor were the only reason the guards would die because they fell in the water, regular citizens would have been fine if they fell in, which we know isn't the case. Regular citizens die when falling into the water just like guards do. Ergo, the solution is simple they couldn't swim. Most people couldn't in those days. Hell, even now there are quite few cultures in which it is actually normal to learn how to swim as a kid.

-People can see you go in and out of a building. The headquarters, in both ACB and ACR, were below ground, under the buildings you enter. They were again hiding in plain sight. The buildings themselves were never the hideouts and let's not forget there were many more buildings Ezio and other assassins entered and left regularly.

CRUDFACE
12-15-2011, 06:28 AM
IDK, allot of your reasons seem to be based on things just happening. No guard in all of Rome can't swim? None of the other nobles can't swim, who've had a life close to Ezio? Nothing is 100% and that is something where for some reason 100% of guards couldn't swim would be impossible. And Ezio in full bodies armor floats just fine.

-Actually in ACR they put the symbol on the door...and the tower...and their bomb crafting and pigeon coops. If they know Assassins by their clothing and uniform and the fact that they all act the same, then they'd know about the stylized A they wear and show around.

-It's the same thing like a Meme, or your signature and banner. You know my new pic? Remember how before I didn't have one? One day, Krieger changed his and I instantly noticed it because I'm used to the picture of Ezio in AC2 that he always has.

-Would you stop saying gang? I already said how in game the heralds as well as everyone calls them assassins. It's in game. And what do you mean I just say I'm right? Every time I say something I back it up by something in game, whether it be how people/guards

-and can you back off with calling me ridiculous? It's insulting and I've talked to you before about being like that. Damn. I've yet to say anything of the like against you. already beginning to flame me. Act like an adult. Actually, people have to know it was you doing things such as stealing or whatever, else the posters wouldn't go up in the first place. Plus, when you do enough in a city, becoming notorious like Ezio who has...about seven towers with the insignia of the assassins on them, people do know. When you famous enough, it does spread, this has been proven time and time again.

-Did you just say Suleiman and Leonardo didn't know they weren't an entire order? You're ignoring things now. Leonardo checked/translated ALL of the codex pages as well as lived in Ezio's villa and was part of finding a temple, and was in his hideout in Rome. Also in Project Legacy, he built some of the hidden devices of the order. He was basically everything but a member.

-Suleiman knew. First of all, one of the trailers for the game say outright how he has the assassins by his side. Second, he was there when the Assassins raided an entire part of the city. He also knew how they saved his life.

-Don't say he could, he did. That's a fact from the game when people recognize Ezio on the street and ask him to do things for him (as the guy everyone talks about) as well as when it happened in "The Fall." It did happen. It does happen. It will keep happening when you wear the same set of robes all the time.

-You're memory sucks. They can't remember Ezio? Posters are everywhere. Another poster put up the dancing bear video and you said that's what you meant. But once you've seen Ezio, and keep seeing him, it does stick. Plus, I'm fine with him joyriding on lines through the city. Batman did it and it works. What I'm not fine with is him running around in the same exact outfit people are familiar with.

BTW, can i ask you a question real fast? Not insulting or anything like that.

Edit: about the nobles, most were Templar or affiliated with them therefore they would know. And because they did know, they would make the assassins more notorious and alert people to their presence. Also on the guards, where did you get the idea that they weren't trained and needed to be of the police or military to use guns? Doesn't matter if he knew or not, his protection wasn't armed? That makes no sense.

This is a criminal organization. The guy in my corner store is allowed to have a gun. They would to.

LightRey
12-15-2011, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by t260z:
IDK, allot of your reasons seem to be based on things just happening. No guard in all of Rome can't swim? None of the other nobles can't swim, who've had a life close to Ezio? Nothing is 100% and that is something where for some reason 100% of guards couldn't swim would be impossible. And Ezio in full bodies armor floats just fine.

-Actually in ACR they put the symbol on the door...and the tower...and their bomb crafting and pigeon coops. If they know Assassins by their clothing and uniform and the fact that they all act the same, then they'd know about the stylized A they wear and show around.

-It's the same thing like a Meme, or your signature and banner. You know my new pic? Remember how before I didn't have one? One day, Krieger changed his and I instantly noticed it because I'm used to the picture of Ezio in AC2 that he always has.

-Would you stop saying gang? I already said how in game the heralds as well as everyone calls them assassins. It's in game. And what do you mean I just say I'm right? Every time I say something I back it up by something in game, whether it be how people/guards

-and can you back off with calling me ridiculous? It's insulting and I've talked to you before about being like that. Damn. I've yet to say anything of the like against you. already beginning to flame me. Act like an adult. Actually, people have to know it was you doing things such as stealing or whatever, else the posters wouldn't go up in the first place. Plus, when you do enough in a city, becoming notorious like Ezio who has...about seven towers with the insignia of the assassins on them, people do know. When you famous enough, it does spread, this has been proven time and time again.

-Did you just say Suleiman and Leonardo didn't know they weren't an entire order? You're ignoring things now. Leonardo checked/translated ALL of the codex pages as well as lived in Ezio's villa and was part of finding a temple, and was in his hideout in Rome. Also in Project Legacy, he built some of the hidden devices of the order. He was basically everything but a member.

-Suleiman knew. First of all, one of the trailers for the game say outright how he has the assassins by his side. Second, he was there when the Assassins raided an entire part of the city. He also knew how they saved his life.

-Don't say he could, he did. That's a fact from the game when people recognize Ezio on the street and ask him to do things for him (as the guy everyone talks about) as well as when it happened in "The Fall." It did happen. It does happen. It will keep happening when you wear the same set of robes all the time.

-You're memory sucks. They can't remember Ezio? Posters are everywhere. Another poster put up the dancing bear video and you said that's what you meant. But once you've seen Ezio, and keep seeing him, it does stick. Plus, I'm fine with him joyriding on lines through the city. Batman did it and it works. What I'm not fine with is him running around in the same exact outfit people are familiar with.

BTW, can i ask you a question real fast? Not insulting or anything like that.
-No guard in all of Rome that Ezio actually saw fall into the water can swim. I already explained this to you. You have to remember that the Animus simulates memories, meaning that if something relativel unusual happens, such as the rare occasion that a guard that can swim even with armor on falls into the water, it has to have been something Ezio actually experienced.

-I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. The Assassin main hideout in ACR had no symbols on it whatsoever. It looks like a regular building. The only places that have assassin symbols on them are the Dens and those are exactly there to signify their presence in a district, not hide it.

Yes he calls them assassins. Why do I have to explain this again? Just because he says "assassins" doesn't mean he knows what they are. He calls them assassins, because that is the English word for people that do the things they do, not because the heralds know they're part of some basically global order with that name. There is absolutely no indication of that.
Think about it. If there ware some kind of gang in the cities that focused on killing specific influential figures, then what would you call them? Assassins of course, because that's what they would be.
You don't back it up with something that happened within the game. You use your own interpretations of things that happened in the game to back it up, which is something completely different as a different interpretation would yield much different, if not contradicting conclusions.

-That is because you basically saw it every day and suddenly it changed. Here, a person's signature and avatar are what represents them. Changing them is like getting a haircut or changing your style of clothing. It's noticed, because it's a sudden change in what people look for to recognize you.

-Here we go with the nagging again. I wasn't calling you ridiculous, I was calling your claims ridiculous. Stop trying to change the focus of this discussion into your feeling insulted by me. It's a low attempt to avoid having to use logical arguments to "win" a discussion and it's one I have very little respect for.
Ezio becomes notorious as a killer, not as being part of some secret order. Not to mention that the notoriety system was there to signify the very fact that assassins like Ezio work hard to become anonymous again. If anything it's a sign that they most definitely are well hidden.

-No, I said the exact opposite. I said that that was the case save for members of the orders and [b]those closely associated with them[b]. Pay more attention to what you read.

-point moot because of what I stated above.

-I'm not saying he didn't. I'm saying it's something that very likely rarely happens and if it does it's even more rare that it's at a time and place where it poses a problem or risk.

-Now that is an insult. Btw, in that context it's "your", not "you're", unless you're trying to say that I am something called "memory sucks". Posters are everywhere of everyone. Ezio wasn't the only person back then with a bounty on his head. Any criminal, especially those that took criminal action against rich/important figures would have had a serious bounty on their head.
Most people wouldn't have been familiar with his outfit. Cities are big places. Very few people would even have seen his robes and the picture of someone with a hood just wouldn't have been enough. Hoods were certainly not uncommon to wear in those days. It's ridiculous to assume that a significant portion of the city would even have seen Ezio (and have realized it). Let us once again not forget that since Ezio started wearing Assassin robes, he only stayed in places like Florence for months if not weeks at a time. The only exception would've been Venice and Rome, as he stayed there for several years.

That would depend on what the question would be about. If it's something you wish to be informed about regarding science or the like than try google. I'm not in the mood to help people that say my memory "sucks".

ProdiGurl
12-15-2011, 07:17 AM
Just for the record, every time a guard hits the water, they never come back out.
Seemingly, they drown to death & that's the end of them.
?

LightRey
12-15-2011, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by ProdiGurl:
Just for the record, every time a guard hits the water, they never come back out.
Seemingly, they drown to death & that's the end of them.
?
I believe they (sometimes) float back to the surface for a little while.

GunnarGunderson
12-15-2011, 08:52 AM
What annoys me is that everyone in Rome knew Ezio's name and that he was an assassin but the animus database claims that historians don't know he was an assassin

LightRey
12-15-2011, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by BradKinn:
What annoys me is that everyone in Rome knew Ezio's name and that he was an assassin but the animus database claims that historians don't know he was an assassin
What are you talking about? Who knew his name?

DavisP92
12-15-2011, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
IDK, allot of your reasons seem to be based on things just happening. No guard in all of Rome can't swim? None of the other nobles can't swim, who've had a life close to Ezio? Nothing is 100% and that is something where for some reason 100% of guards couldn't swim would be impossible. And Ezio in full bodies armor floats just fine.

-Actually in ACR they put the symbol on the door...and the tower...and their bomb crafting and pigeon coops. If they know Assassins by their clothing and uniform and the fact that they all act the same, then they'd know about the stylized A they wear and show around.

-It's the same thing like a Meme, or your signature and banner. You know my new pic? Remember how before I didn't have one? One day, Krieger changed his and I instantly noticed it because I'm used to the picture of Ezio in AC2 that he always has.

-Would you stop saying gang? I already said how in game the heralds as well as everyone calls them assassins. It's in game. And what do you mean I just say I'm right? Every time I say something I back it up by something in game, whether it be how people/guards

-and can you back off with calling me ridiculous? It's insulting and I've talked to you before about being like that. Damn. I've yet to say anything of the like against you. already beginning to flame me. Act like an adult. Actually, people have to know it was you doing things such as stealing or whatever, else the posters wouldn't go up in the first place. Plus, when you do enough in a city, becoming notorious like Ezio who has...about seven towers with the insignia of the assassins on them, people do know. When you famous enough, it does spread, this has been proven time and time again.

-Did you just say Suleiman and Leonardo didn't know they weren't an entire order? You're ignoring things now. Leonardo checked/translated ALL of the codex pages as well as lived in Ezio's villa and was part of finding a temple, and was in his hideout in Rome. Also in Project Legacy, he built some of the hidden devices of the order. He was basically everything but a member.

-Suleiman knew. First of all, one of the trailers for the game say outright how he has the assassins by his side. Second, he was there when the Assassins raided an entire part of the city. He also knew how they saved his life.

-Don't say he could, he did. That's a fact from the game when people recognize Ezio on the street and ask him to do things for him (as the guy everyone talks about) as well as when it happened in "The Fall." It did happen. It does happen. It will keep happening when you wear the same set of robes all the time.

-You're memory sucks. They can't remember Ezio? Posters are everywhere. Another poster put up the dancing bear video and you said that's what you meant. But once you've seen Ezio, and keep seeing him, it does stick. Plus, I'm fine with him joyriding on lines through the city. Batman did it and it works. What I'm not fine with is him running around in the same exact outfit people are familiar with.

BTW, can i ask you a question real fast? Not insulting or anything like that.
-No guard in all of Rome that Ezio actually saw fall into the water can swim. I already explained this to you. You have to remember that the Animus simulates memories, meaning that if something relativel unusual happens, such as the rare occasion that a guard that can swim even with armor on falls into the water, it has to have been something Ezio actually experienced.

-I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. The Assassin main hideout in ACR had no symbols on it whatsoever. It looks like a regular building. The only places that have assassin symbols on them are the Dens and those are exactly there to signify their presence in a district, not hide it.

Yes he calls them assassins. Why do I have to explain this again? Just because he says "assassins" doesn't mean he knows what they are. He calls them assassins, because that is the English word for people that do the things they do, not because the heralds know they're part of some basically global order with that name. There is absolutely no indication of that.
Think about it. If there ware some kind of gang in the cities that focused on killing specific influential figures, then what would you call them? Assassins of course, because that's what they would be.
You don't back it up with something that happened within the game. You use your own interpretations of things that happened in the game to back it up, which is something completely different as a different interpretation would yield much different, if not contradicting conclusions.

-That is because you basically saw it every day and suddenly it changed. Here, a person's signature and avatar are what represents them. Changing them is like getting a haircut or changing your style of clothing. It's noticed, because it's a sudden change in what people look for to recognize you.

-Here we go with the nagging again. I wasn't calling you ridiculous, I was calling your claims ridiculous. Stop trying to change the focus of this discussion into your feeling insulted by me. It's a low attempt to avoid having to use logical arguments to "win" a discussion and it's one I have very little respect for.
Ezio becomes notorious as a killer, not as being part of some secret order. Not to mention that the notoriety system was there to signify the very fact that assassins like Ezio work hard to become anonymous again. If anything it's a sign that they most definitely are well hidden.

-No, I said the exact opposite. I said that that was the case save for members of the orders and [b]those closely associated with them[b]. Pay more attention to what you read.

-point moot because of what I stated above.

-I'm not saying he didn't. I'm saying it's something that very likely rarely happens and if it does it's even more rare that it's at a time and place where it poses a problem or risk.

-Now that is an insult. Btw, in that context it's "your", not "you're", unless you're trying to say that I am something called "memory sucks". Posters are everywhere of everyone. Ezio wasn't the only person back then with a bounty on his head. Any criminal, especially those that took criminal action against rich/important figures would have had a serious bounty on their head.
Most people wouldn't have been familiar with his outfit. Cities are big places. Very few people would even have seen his robes and the picture of someone with a hood just wouldn't have been enough. Hoods were certainly not uncommon to wear in those days. It's ridiculous to assume that a significant portion of the city would even have seen Ezio (and have realized it). Let us once again not forget that since Ezio started wearing Assassin robes, he only stayed in places like Florence for months if not weeks at a time. The only exception would've been Venice and Rome, as he stayed there for several years.

That would depend on what the question would be about. If it's something you wish to be informed about regarding science or the like than try google. I'm not in the mood to help people that say my memory "sucks". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

gotta say that's a lame excuse u gave for the drowning, they drown cuz the developers didn't give them the ability to swim. Not cuz the animus and yadda yadda yadda.

The assassins did have their symbol all over Istanbul. he has a point lightrey, the assassins aren't stealthy like they were in AC1. And even at that, Altair disbanded the Syrian Assassins hideout so that they could spread out and hide within the cities and not be open which Ezio did not do since AC2.

About the gang thing, u both have a good point. Yea the harolds call them assassins and they probably don't know what they truly do. But assassins aren't gangs lightrey, assassins are normally considered to be skilled and trained killers. While gangs are normally just a bunch of ppl willing to kill but aren't trained to do it. So the fact that he's saying assassins means he understands that they are trained in the art of death.

He also has a point with the outfit and notoriety. Ezio wears the same outfit and fights hundreds of guards and thousands of ppl see him, for u to say that they won't remember what he looks like is ridiculous. commen sense would normally prevent someone from saying that. and either way the concept of removing the notoriety doesn't make sense too, if ppl are talking about u and have been and there are posters/ were posters (acr doesn't have them) ppl would hear and see that just cuz u told a person to stop by bribing them or ripping the poster down doesn't mean that the entire city will forget about ezio. That's ridiculous too, pretty much it's gossip that is spreading around about Ezio (be it true or not it's gossip) and once it's out there u can't take it back. That means lightrey that ppl Will know about Ezio even if he bribes ppl and wat not. The only reason it's not in the game like that (realistically) cuz again the developers didn't do it.

And as for the Assassins being known, they were known. When recruiting someone they already know who Ezio is and of him and his order. Also there is a recruit that screams assassin and follows u before u even speak to him so he knows as well. Add the mercenaries, the first mission u do with them the guy knows ur name when u never met him before (never shown or explained how he knows u). The entire city knows of Ezio and his order really. They kinda fail at the lets be secretive idea that Altair made.

I apoligize if i came of rude or disrespectful.

Edit: another reason why the guards should know what Ezio looks like is the fact that a lot of them run away when u fight a group and kill some of them. That would mean that the ones that run, would know what Ezio looks like, his face, outfit and what weapons he has (crossbow cuz that never changes) and would tell other guards about him.

SolidSage
12-15-2011, 10:17 AM
I don't think Assassin's in general need to be stealthy or light on the pack out. I see a lot of talk about Ezio having too large an arsenal to be realistic, lately.
His packout is certainly growing and there's no way he could carry all that stuff AND free run, but I don't think the amount of equipment has any bearing on whether or not he is a realistic Assassin.

A good Assassin may only need a plan and a vial of something toxic, but who's to say that an Assassin has to be hidden at all? His or her job is to kill someone, how they do it is either up to them or defined by mission parameters.

I mean, to say that 'really' they should only have a hidden blade and a dagger or whatever, isn't 'really' based in any kind of fact. If they were supposed to be hidden there wouldn't be all the chase missions and exotic game play sections.
Stealth is certainly a valuable tool to an Assassin but not mandatory or necessary. They could use a tank, or a nuke or pay a ****** to do it if they wanted, or any other number of possibilities, as long as they got the job done.

Creed allows the player to choose what kind of Assassin they want to be, and offers the large variety of equipment so players can choose from them as they like, not necessarily so players will run around and load up on every piece of equipment and armor available, play the game and en complain about there being too much of it.

If you like the minimalist approach, obviously not buying armor or equipment is the way to go, but another thing I do, is BUY A HEAVY WEAPON AND THROW IT AWAY. As long as you don't pick up another weapon on accident, which does happen some times, you can run around with JUST THE HIDDEN BLADES AND THROWING KNIVES. Unless you purchased a dagger, in which case you'll have that too. I haven't tried unequipping a dagger or sword at HQ yet, I think you have to replace them, rather than unequipping, if thats ghe case the only work around is not purchasing a dagger initially and throwing the heavy weapin away.

crash3
12-15-2011, 01:25 PM
I totally agree with this topic, ACB and ACR felt more like all out gang wars in the city rather than a secret struggle behind the scenes of history. Assassins need to be more stealthy and there should be bigger consequences for comprimising the brotherhood. Guards and enemies in general should be a lot tougher and more challenging to fight so that we have a proper incentive to be more stealthy-assassins arent invincible warriors.

As good as it feels to have people in the street being friendly to you, I think the assassins should be more reclusive, striking from the shadows and disappearing again. AC1 felt a lot more stealthy-you had to be as the guards would attack you on site instead of having those ridiculous triangles that fill up above their heads and they were more aggressive

Basically I think a more challenging game would make us have a need to be more stealthy

DavisP92
12-15-2011, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by SolidSage:
I don't think Assassin's in general need to be stealthy or light on the pack out. I see a lot of talk about Ezio having too large an arsenal to be realistic, lately.
His packout is certainly growing and there's no way he could carry all that stuff AND free run, but I don't think the amount of equipment has any bearing on whether or not he is a realistic Assassin.

A good Assassin may only need a plan and a vial of something toxic, but who's to say that an Assassin has to be hidden at all? His or her job is to kill someone, how they do it is either up to them or defined by mission parameters.

I mean, to say that 'really' they should only have a hidden blade and a dagger or whatever, isn't 'really' based in any kind of fact. If they were supposed to be hidden there wouldn't be all the chase missions and exotic game play sections.
Stealth is certainly a valuable tool to an Assassin but not mandatory or necessary. They could use a tank, or a nuke or pay a ****** to do it if they wanted, or any other number of possibilities, as long as they got the job done.

Creed allows the player to choose what kind of Assassin they want to be, and offers the large variety of equipment so players can choose from them as they like, not necessarily so players will run around and load up on every piece of equipment and armor available, play the game and en complain about there being too much of it.

If you like the minimalist approach, obviously not buying armor or equipment is the way to go, but another thing I do, is BUY A HEAVY WEAPON AND THROW IT AWAY. As long as you don't pick up another weapon on accident, which does happen some times, you can run around with JUST THE HIDDEN BLADES AND THROWING KNIVES. Unless you purchased a dagger, in which case you'll have that too. I haven't tried unequipping a dagger or sword at HQ yet, I think you have to replace them, rather than unequipping, if thats ghe case the only work around is not purchasing a dagger initially and throwing the heavy weapin away.

who says that they have to be hidden u say http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, well Ubisoft says so when they made AC1 and Altair after AC1. In fact if u really played and payed attention to the concept Altair was taught and continued to teach and i think it was said in AC2 as well. "Blade in the crowd" and "we work in the dark to serve the light" all refers to the concept of stealth.

yea i did the same thing with the throwing the heavy weapon :P, but that still isn't the same thing. The game should provide both options rather then one and the only way to get the other one is to throw a weapon away. And once u buy a dagger i think it stays with u right? Also think about it this way, if ur one of the few that is carrying a weapon the guards should look at u more then anyone else thus the game should be harder (meaning the notoriety system should work into the game that u are carrying a weapon while those that don't should remain undetected more easily).

lol i'm sorry but i think it's too funny u say that assassins don't need to be stealthy and make it seem like they shouldn't. U might be trying to say it like that but that's how i read it, so please tell me if i'm wrong here. But in today's gaming normally when someone says assassin or hitman or something there is stealth in it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LightRey
12-15-2011, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
gotta say that's a lame excuse u gave for the drowning, they drown cuz the developers didn't give them the ability to swim. Not cuz the animus and yadda yadda yadda.

The assassins did have their symbol all over Istanbul. he has a point lightrey, the assassins aren't stealthy like they were in AC1. And even at that, Altair disbanded the Syrian Assassins hideout so that they could spread out and hide within the cities and not be open which Ezio did not do since AC2.

About the gang thing, u both have a good point. Yea the harolds call them assassins and they probably don't know what they truly do. But assassins aren't gangs lightrey, assassins are normally considered to be skilled and trained killers. While gangs are normally just a bunch of ppl willing to kill but aren't trained to do it. So the fact that he's saying assassins means he understands that they are trained in the art of death.

He also has a point with the outfit and notoriety. Ezio wears the same outfit and fights hundreds of guards and thousands of ppl see him, for u to say that they won't remember what he looks like is ridiculous. commen sense would normally prevent someone from saying that. and either way the concept of removing the notoriety doesn't make sense too, if ppl are talking about u and have been and there are posters/ were posters (acr doesn't have them) ppl would hear and see that just cuz u told a person to stop by bribing them or ripping the poster down doesn't mean that the entire city will forget about ezio. That's ridiculous too, pretty much it's gossip that is spreading around about Ezio (be it true or not it's gossip) and once it's out there u can't take it back. That means lightrey that ppl Will know about Ezio even if he bribes ppl and wat not. The only reason it's not in the game like that (realistically) cuz again the developers didn't do it.

And as for the Assassins being known, they were known. When recruiting someone they already know who Ezio is and of him and his order. Also there is a recruit that screams assassin and follows u before u even speak to him so he knows as well. Add the mercenaries, the first mission u do with them the guy knows ur name when u never met him before (never shown or explained how he knows u). The entire city knows of Ezio and his order really. They kinda fail at the lets be secretive idea that Altair made.

I apoligize if i came of rude or disrespectful.

Edit: another reason why the guards should know what Ezio looks like is the fact that a lot of them run away when u fight a group and kill some of them. That would mean that the ones that run, would know what Ezio looks like, his face, outfit and what weapons he has (crossbow cuz that never changes) and would tell other guards about him.
-It's not a lame excuse. I'm not saying that's why they did it, I'm saying that that's why it's not a discrepancy. They didn't do it because it wasn't necessary.

-Stealthy like in AC1? You do realize that their Assassin bureaus had the Assassin symbol on the rooftop right? Not to mention they had a fortress in the mountains everybody knew about. In AC1 they were in no way more hidden than in ACII & after.

-You really don't know that much about history do you? In those days gangs weren't always random groups of people fighting turf wars. Gangs were often associated with important political figures who used them to keep control over certain parts of cities, both economically and politically. Nobody there would've been surprised with there being a gang of assassins.
Besides, I'm not saying that they were a gang. I'm saying that that was their cover. They avoided the more major suspicions by acting like a gang.

-Ezio doesn't wear the same outfit in the novels and even in the games he quite often puts on the armor of some guard or the robes of a minstrel to avoid detection. They can't just make 100 outfits for Ezio in the game just to be more realistic. Not to mention that the posters only showed a vague depiction of a man in a hood, of which there would have been many that weren't Assassins in the cities. Hoods have been a common piece of clothing for millennia and comparing the hundreds of witnesses (in total) to the the many hundreds of thousands (again in total) of people that had never actually seen the man, the chances of any witnesses seeing and recognizing him and having both the chance and the courage to call him out is very slim.

-Of course they were known. I'm not denying that. However, they weren't known for being a global organization that focused on preserving free will by killing corrupt leaders and who were fighting another secret global organization hellbent on doing the very thing the Assassins want to prevent.
They explained very well why the guys knew Ezio. The mercenaries, thieves and Romani had been associates of the Assassins in Constantinople before Ezio had arrived (as Yusuf kindly explained). Yusuf also explained to Ezio that not only had his reputation amongst the order preceded him, the order in Constantinople had also become aware of his activities in Masyaf and to top it all off several people in the game say Yusuf was quite talkative and had spoken to many Assassins about the arrival of The Mentor Ezio Auditore (da Lalala). It's not very hard to put two and two together and figure out that each faction was informed by their close Assassin associates (if not leaders in some cases) about Ezio having arrived.

-That's a fairly weak argument. It's quite easy to assume that they simply run away, because they're scared of a guy that can kill 5 guards in less then 5 seconds. Besides, they did so ever since the very beginning of ACII, when Ezio wasn't even that (in)famous.

DavisP92
12-15-2011, 07:30 PM
@LightRey,

When i mentioned AC1 stealth i was refering to how u could assassinate ppl. But refering to the fotress thing, Altair disbanned it for stealth while Ezio decided to have the assassin symbol on his clothes, and dens (outside). Yes in AC2 the stealth for the idea of where and who the assassins were was best but not gameplay wise.

I don't, never said i do or gave that impression. and u can't say nobody would be suprised cuz u didn't live then dude, but as for they acted like a gang. If a gang back then went on killing sprees, against gaurds then maybe but i doubt they did (although i haven't researched it).

okay one we're talking about the game so don't bring up the novel. two, changing it once or twice for 1 hour out of 20 is not enough. and 100 outfits is to crazy but nonone but you sugested that, but being able to change the design or take the hood down when ur not on an assassination mission but putting it on when u do would be nice. As for the hoods, one AC the game (since that is the only thing we're refering to) no one wore hoods but assassins so yea no if they see a hood then they should say assassin since they're the only ones i can remember wearing them. And i don't think u should make it sound like guards won't talk about a man that killed their friends or family. Humans normally get angry and want revenge not get scared and not confront Ezio with other guards.

Ezio Auditori da la la la lol, i loved that. U didn't even explain the recruit screaming assassin man, the others u explained greatly but not that.

And that's not a weak argument but more of a point that guards don't normally just go run and hide and never come out of their homes just cuz of that. They normally talk and tell other guards (realistically). and in AC2 it was kinda lame, fun tho, but still lame that someone who is untrained can kill 5-100000 trained guards right when they get their sword and hidden blade. I still don't like that Ezio can kill guards like he's cutting through butter but they are trained, they aren't ppl that for the first time ever in their lives picked up a sword. But idk how they would do anything for that, cuz it's fun as it is now

rileypoole1234
12-15-2011, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by deadly_thought:
in ACR ur nothing more than a 14th century spiderman with friends


14th century? Really? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

dxsxhxcx
12-15-2011, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by rileypoole1234:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deadly_thought:
in ACR ur nothing more than a 14th century spiderman with friends


14th century? Really? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

we aren't spiderman, we are superman, we will be spiderman when/if they add a grappling hook... xD

JumpInTheFire13
12-15-2011, 08:21 PM
in ACR ur nothing more than a 14th century spiderman with friends



The 14th century was the 1300's, not the 1500's...

SolidSage
12-15-2011, 09:37 PM
@Pdavis
You're right about Altair. Ezio is a different matter, he wasn't educated about the Assassin's in the same way, he only became one it seems, because of what happened to his family, and later in life he pretty much shrugs the whole thing off anyway.
They weren't supposed to be kill hungry either, but Altair was on the beginning.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be stealthy, I'm saying it isn't a mandate that they have to be stealthy.
And the original order didn't act much like stealthy Assassins anyway, as someone mentioned earlier, having a castle, contracting for just about everyone. They acted more like a military faxtion, who chose to make better progress by going after high profile targets.
Their entire structure was more military in nature. Especially now with the recruits.

I feel there is plenty of opportunity for stealth in the Creed games, it's not as deep as a full stealth game, and it puts a large onus on the player to stay honest about it, playing the game slower and incorporating the method as much as possible, while neglecting the other tempting traits, like running over roof tops and free running.

"We work in the dark to serve the light" could easily mean, working in secrecy to serve righteousness, or even doing dark/dirty deeds to serve the light/good, as much as it could mean what you imply. Which if taken literally as you suggested would mean, they work at night or in the shadows,to serve the day time? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense really.

Just because an armored warrior slays someone out in the open, doesn't mean secrecy isn't involved.
Everyone likens the Assassins to Ninjas, but they're not. I mean right out of the gate, AaL Mualim had Richards dudes kicking in the door to Masyaf, so even back then, the secrecy aspect was pretty much a fail.

Again, at the end of the day we are at the point of discernment, that requires us to understand that, playing a game where all you do is shoot poison darts at someone, or spike their drink, or what, I dunno, bait a bear trap, isn't going to do much of nothing for our satisfaction.
Be honest, the air assassinations with the mighty stealthiness of the hidden blade is about as stealthy as swinging a cat around by it's tail on a Sunday morning in Church.

Stealth is fine, action is fine. MANDATORY stealth or action is restricting and confining.

Creed could evolve it's stealth aspect a tad and improve it's stealth rating, I agree, but just because it's about Assassin's doesn't mean it HAS to be about stealth. It doesn't HAVE to conform to any traditional archtypes to be honest.

You know, in review, it IS about as stealthy as all get out really, I mean it's easy to walk up behind a patrol of four, double blade the two at the back then follow the front two and do the same. I've walked around for ages getting away with it, no alerts, no combat, no amazing free running escapes, it's kind of boring to be honest.
Turning AC into old SC is pointless.

As far as not liking having to throw a weapon away, well I don't get the distaste for that either. Are you saying it would be better to not have that option, not have the extra weapons at all, and HAVE to use a minimal pack out? Sounds like more MANDATORY game play styling to me.

Choices are the closest people will ever get to freedom.

Actually, now I've said that, a lot of members do seem to possess the Templar mind set, wanting to remove choice and employ more and more controls.

A good portion of what I have seen complained about in this forum is readily available by making a few different choices in how you play your game.

CRUDFACE
12-15-2011, 09:39 PM
Well, I've proven my case with facts in game, showing how people knew Ezio by visage, symbol and skill as well as those affiliated with. I've done so through facts in game, none of which you weren't able to contradict Lightrey. And they're not my own interpretation, I've quoted or given exactly what happens in the game itself and even the guy who writes for the game said they weren't stealthy.

And again, I'm comparing everything to in game, not real life. It's a game, treat it as such.

I'm not nagging, I'm just saying show some respect. And I dedicated two sentences to it. Like that would change an entire discussion.

Most of yours are based on people not remembering. Thing is, with one attack, fine, I wouldn't either. But the assassins roam the same streets and the same people see them on a daily basis changes that. It was even noted in Game Informer and other forums who've brought up the same thing I've said here. such as Gamespot, and the Escapists.

And please, you call me ridiculous and all kind of names, but get upset because I said your memory sucks? so you can make fun of me, but I can't poke fun at you. You're so full of yourself. I took something as an insult, as you did from me. Insults decides on the person and we both felt insulted. There.

Besides, I was just wondering why another person on here has your Facebook page linked on their profile is all. confused the crap outta me.

And yes, guards ran away, but since posters went up, they must have known it was you. That and this is also about the assassins overall since AC:2 to now in AC:R.

Also you compared getting a haircut or changing a style of clothing which is exactly what Ezio does by having clothes of different make and design.

@Solid: an assassin doesn't have to be hidden. But the trick is to not be remembered. And since Ezio wears the same thing, all of which are high quality. And the series relies on Assassins not being remembered.



Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ProdiGurl:
Just for the record, every time a guard hits the water, they never come back out.
Seemingly, they drown to death & that's the end of them.
?
I believe they (sometimes) float back to the surface for a little while. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, they die and yes, some float back up after they die automatically from touching water.

Oh, and Lightrey, I'm talking about the towers for the dens, they all had the symbol as well as another carved in some kind of metal at the top of the tower. And actually, the bomb crafting stations do have their symbols their, it's in game, go ahead and look at one.

@SolidSage: remember, in Altair's time, they wanted to be know. And I'm talking about things like in game cinematics as well. Like when a horde of assassins charges a part of the city all at once. Also, the game doesn't seem balanced between stealthy segments and full on attack parts.

SolidSage
12-15-2011, 09:48 PM
@t260z
I agree with you. But to achieve that, an Assassin would either, rarely perform multiple Assassination's in the same city, or would only work under the cover of complete night or hiddeness.
Which means Ubi would have to either build 50 maps for one game, or a 50 different characters for each sub mission, or change the gameplay entirely and remove free running (highest profile action in the game), remove combat (since doing that would mega blow your cover) or give Ezio a ton of disguises (50 characters).
All of which, stray leagues away from what even the holy AC1 was like.

It's not that there aren't valid points being made, but they are kind of pointless. We are experiencing an evolution of gameplay that is inextricably tied to the passage of time and life.

Highlighting stealth as the major component is kind of false, there were always three majors the free running, the combat, and the stealthy assassinations. All of which are still available.
Sure some Ai or outfits that allowed the Assassin to blend more realistically would be nice. And I would love for guards to throw a
caniption fit the minute I stood out too much like in 1, but only because I enjoy busting their chops.

Sorry, but doesn't your last point sort of contradict what the thread starter is arguing here? The title suggests that Assassin's USED to be hidden but NOW they are not. You just correctly stated that in Altairs time, they WANTED to be nown, for various reasons, intimidation and projection of power probably being a couple of those reasons.
So if they wanted to be known, making a lot of noise about killing dudes would be working towards their inital goal and thus, prove that they are no less hidden now than they used to be and in so doing make this whole thread void?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
I like that we can all have a laugh about it, and make up stuff to talk about, and that it doesn't matter if it's really relevant or not.

CRUDFACE
12-16-2011, 12:13 AM
@Solid: yeah, lol, we can laugh about it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif and when I say hidden, I mean after AC2 and even in AC1, they actually hid better by blending with people who kind of blended with them. So basically I'm saying, even when the assassins wanted to be known, they were still sneakier than the assassins who are supposed to be sneaky.

And stealth is like...well, one of the gameplay pillars, but at the same time, i'm just saying we can tweak it a bit:

-Ezio only wears his robes on actual assassin missions instead of every time, like walking down the street with them on all the time.

-don't mark places that they own, including bomb dispersal places right near houses and towers that are landmarks

-don't talk about their plans as they walk through crowds all out in the open.

-And most of all, you can fight all you want and do other things like being loud/sneaker/cunning or using diversions. It's AC, it's a multi-path game, and I think full synchronization ruined the mindset of some players by forcing them to do a thing a certain way, instead of their own way. It also doubles as Rage Quitting.

So for the more epic events, they shouldn't be things that catch the attention of everybody. Like burning the entire dock down with Greek fire, lol. That's OVERKILL! Also mentioned in a few other gaming sites like Kotaku.

I know we're experiencing an evolution, but it's also good to not go overboard. If the Boat is over packed, it's going to sink. It was even brought up in AC:R's review in Gameinformer, in that some things didn't add up with the "secret" war the assassins fought with the Templars.

LightRey
12-16-2011, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@LightRey,

When i mentioned AC1 stealth i was refering to how u could assassinate ppl. But refering to the fotress thing, Altair disbanned it for stealth while Ezio decided to have the assassin symbol on his clothes, and dens (outside). Yes in AC2 the stealth for the idea of where and who the assassins were was best but not gameplay wise.

I don't, never said i do or gave that impression. and u can't say nobody would be suprised cuz u didn't live then dude, but as for they acted like a gang. If a gang back then went on killing sprees, against gaurds then maybe but i doubt they did (although i haven't researched it).

okay one we're talking about the game so don't bring up the novel. two, changing it once or twice for 1 hour out of 20 is not enough. and 100 outfits is to crazy but nonone but you sugested that, but being able to change the design or take the hood down when ur not on an assassination mission but putting it on when u do would be nice. As for the hoods, one AC the game (since that is the only thing we're refering to) no one wore hoods but assassins so yea no if they see a hood then they should say assassin since they're the only ones i can remember wearing them. And i don't think u should make it sound like guards won't talk about a man that killed their friends or family. Humans normally get angry and want revenge not get scared and not confront Ezio with other guards.

Ezio Auditori da la la la lol, i loved that. U didn't even explain the recruit screaming assassin man, the others u explained greatly but not that.

And that's not a weak argument but more of a point that guards don't normally just go run and hide and never come out of their homes just cuz of that. They normally talk and tell other guards (realistically). and in AC2 it was kinda lame, fun tho, but still lame that someone who is untrained can kill 5-100000 trained guards right when they get their sword and hidden blade. I still don't like that Ezio can kill guards like he's cutting through butter but they are trained, they aren't ppl that for the first time ever in their lives picked up a sword. But idk how they would do anything for that, cuz it's fun as it is now
-I don't see any reason to assume that Ezio had anything to do with the decision to put Assassin banners on the dens. There were none in ACB and the dens in ACR were under Yusuf's control, not Ezio's.
Besides, even if he did it would again bring back the point of the dens being their centers of power in their respective districts. They openly protected the districts from Byzantines.

-The novel is canon on all parts that don't contradict the games. As I can easily imagine there to be many reasons not to make more than 10 separate skins just for the sake of realism, since it would likely take away a lot of the feel of the game, not to mention it would take a lot of unnecessary effort and time, I see no reason to assume that the novels were wrong on this.
Being able to color your robes likely also ties into this, since in many cases it can most definitely make blending seem more realistic.

About the hoods, I think the problem lies more that so few citizens actually wear any hoods. It's unrealistic. I think an important part of the problem is that there are basically like 5 to 10 different kinds of models for citizens, which is of course understandable and necessary, but it does seem to be the main cause of the "problem" in this case.

Humans get angry and want revenge? I'm sorry but that is just wrong. Humans are "programmed" to survive. If one person just killed 5 guards and there's 2 low ranking members left (usually it's the low ranked ones that run), they're going to run. The odds of survival are obviously much greater if they run at that point. They might be tempted to seek revenge afterwards, but I wouldn't even count on that.

Of course they would tell other guards. But they would not be much more informed by them than by the posters, other than that the guy was so dangerous he could kill their entire squad. I would agree that it was a little unrealistic for the beginning of ACII, but the idea there is that combat is mostly avoided (as it is in the story parts). However, after being trained by Mario for 2 years that would no longer have applied, since Ezio was very talented and Mario was likely an excellent teacher.
No, they aren't people that for the first time ever picked up a sword. However, they are the "noobs" of the guards (low ranking) and they are human. If they realize they're going to die if they continue, then they're going to flee.

DavisP92
12-16-2011, 07:10 AM
@LightRey,

Actually the dens were under Ezio's control because they were templar towers before ezio got there and he/we took them. Also on ezio's robes is the Assassins symbol. U have to admit he is more open then how Altair was during combat and what he wore. Yea altiar had the symbol on that short sword holder but ezio had that too and the symbol on his chest.

About the models, I can say ubisoft did a better job this time providing ppl with a hat or veil in the same color of ezio's robes (somewhat). but for hoods i don't think anyone wears it. Are you saying that it's unrealistic that they don't wear hoods??

No sir, i wouldn't call it wrong. An observation, of course it doesn't count for everyone. Some ppl get scared and can't act but some have anger that builds up. How many ppl want to kill the person that took someone they loved away from them, it's more common then ur making it appear. It was wrong of us to assume that all the ppl should only do one thing, but either way that will still prove my point with some should want revenge. If u look at how ur saying they won't have the courage, if the templars already know about ezio and what he is and does. Why would the stalkers sneak attack him? They aren't scared little girls haha :P. I get what ur saying that they would run when they see many guards die in front of them, but i wasn't saying they shouldn't. I was saying that when they do run they should tell other's thus making ezio more known through the city which u agreed too. But AC doesn't take that into consideration. There are no more posters, but they will be informed enough to know if they see someone in ezio's robes or with his look at all that he was the assassin. They would know that he uses hidden blades, that he has bombs too, that he calls assassins to help him that magically teleport in the area hah.

but then look at it again i'm pretty sure tho, could be mistaken, that u can kill streak even the skilled guards. everyone except the janissaries, but i doubt brutes, spearmen and the captains are unskilled noobs. And just because someone in is the etire of a new officer doesn't mean that they're sword skill is that of a noob. Ur making that assumption

LightRey
12-16-2011, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@LightRey,

Actually the dens were under Ezio's control because they were templar towers before ezio got there and he/we took them. Also on ezio's robes is the Assassins symbol. U have to admit he is more open then how Altair was during combat and what he wore. Yea altiar had the symbol on that short sword holder but ezio had that too and the symbol on his chest.

About the models, I can say ubisoft did a better job this time providing ppl with a hat or veil in the same color of ezio's robes (somewhat). but for hoods i don't think anyone wears it. Are you saying that it's unrealistic that they don't wear hoods??

No sir, i wouldn't call it wrong. An observation, of course it doesn't count for everyone. Some ppl get scared and can't act but some have anger that builds up. How many ppl want to kill the person that took someone they loved away from them, it's more common then ur making it appear. It was wrong of us to assume that all the ppl should only do one thing, but either way that will still prove my point with some should want revenge. If u look at how ur saying they won't have the courage, if the templars already know about ezio and what he is and does. Why would the stalkers sneak attack him? They aren't scared little girls haha :P. I get what ur saying that they would run when they see many guards die in front of them, but i wasn't saying they shouldn't. I was saying that when they do run they should tell other's thus making ezio more known through the city which u agreed too. But AC doesn't take that into consideration. There are no more posters, but they will be informed enough to know if they see someone in ezio's robes or with his look at all that he was the assassin. They would know that he uses hidden blades, that he has bombs too, that he calls assassins to help him that magically teleport in the area hah.

but then look at it again i'm pretty sure tho, could be mistaken, that u can kill streak even the skilled guards. everyone except the janissaries, but i doubt brutes, spearmen and the captains are unskilled noobs. And just because someone in is the etire of a new officer doesn't mean that they're sword skill is that of a noob. Ur making that assumption
-The dens were not under Ezio's control. Ezio was only a visitor in Constantinople. The order in Constantinople was under the complete supervision of Yusuf. Ezio wasn't directly in charge of anyone, except when carrying out specific missions with them.
He was open, the order wasn't. The order itself was hiding their true identity.

-Yes, it is. It's unrealistic that there are so few regular people in the AC games that wear hoods.

-Running away is by far the normal thing to do. Humans don't make rational decisions (although many like to believe in the illusion that they do). Human decision making is done before the consciousness is even prompted the question. We can train to create a force of habit to replace one subconscious decision path with another, but our conscious mind has practically no control on the decision making process.

Our consciousness is no more than that, something that is conscious. It's the part of our mind that is aware of its surroundings. It simply observes and analyzes. It can indirectly influence future decisions in doing so, but it cannot make our decisions for us.

Revenge is only carried out by humans that have the kind of position to do so. I can absolutely guarantee you that a small group of people facing a threat that they have witnessed to be capable of killing a larger and better trained group of people, will almost always run away. It's basic human psychology.

Dagio12
12-16-2011, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@LightRey,

Actually the dens were under Ezio's control because they were templar towers before ezio got there and he/we took them. Also on ezio's robes is the Assassins symbol. U have to admit he is more open then how Altair was during combat and what he wore. Yea altiar had the symbol on that short sword holder but ezio had that too and the symbol on his chest.

About the models, I can say ubisoft did a better job this time providing ppl with a hat or veil in the same color of ezio's robes (somewhat). but for hoods i don't think anyone wears it. Are you saying that it's unrealistic that they don't wear hoods??

No sir, i wouldn't call it wrong. An observation, of course it doesn't count for everyone. Some ppl get scared and can't act but some have anger that builds up. How many ppl want to kill the person that took someone they loved away from them, it's more common then ur making it appear. It was wrong of us to assume that all the ppl should only do one thing, but either way that will still prove my point with some should want revenge. If u look at how ur saying they won't have the courage, if the templars already know about ezio and what he is and does. Why would the stalkers sneak attack him? They aren't scared little girls haha :P. I get what ur saying that they would run when they see many guards die in front of them, but i wasn't saying they shouldn't. I was saying that when they do run they should tell other's thus making ezio more known through the city which u agreed too. But AC doesn't take that into consideration. There are no more posters, but they will be informed enough to know if they see someone in ezio's robes or with his look at all that he was the assassin. They would know that he uses hidden blades, that he has bombs too, that he calls assassins to help him that magically teleport in the area hah.

but then look at it again i'm pretty sure tho, could be mistaken, that u can kill streak even the skilled guards. everyone except the janissaries, but i doubt brutes, spearmen and the captains are unskilled noobs. And just because someone in is the etire of a new officer doesn't mean that they're sword skill is that of a noob. Ur making that assumption

-The dens have been then before Ezio showed up though. Yusuf and his assassins have been battling with the templars long before Ezio arrived and control within those dens has probably gone back and forth between the assassins and the templars before then as well. Just because Ezio is helping them with this battle doesn't mean he has anything to do with how they are managed upon being recaptured.

-Im sure plenty of people back then wore hoods. Revelations did a much better job of making Ezio seem part of them then almost any other game save from AC1.

-Im not gonna adrs the whole point here, but I personally think its safe to say that most of the time, lower level guards who have watched a man take out 5 of the higher ups will most likely get the heck out of there. That seems pretty instinctual. This may not be the case for everyone, but I think from a gaming persepective, this is a tool to show that Ezio is somewhat feared by some of these lower level guards. And the stalkers are kind of scared, they attack only when you are not paying attention. If you turn around on them they will run, or just stand there like nothing, waiting for you to turn your back. They wont directly engage Ezio in open conflict. Lower level guards have been fleeing since AC1, this isnt really anything new.

-getting in open conflict does lead to your notoriety going up, and heralds talking about. No more posters, but Im kind of glad, those got annoying to tear down.

-IMO opinion, the assassin robes are really more of a trademark of the series, that iconic look. I dont think it would be necessary for Ezio to walk around in a normal outfit, but only have his assassin outfit on mission. I see the idea behind it, and it makes sense... but it just seems like overkill for a video game. Im willing to accept the fact that he probably wears more then just his robes, but we just dont see it. Also, I like to switch out the colors every few missions to give that feel that they might not recognize my new outfit as easily. I kind of wish they would implement that into the game more ( where in order to bring your notoriety down all the way, you need to change the outfit color.. but anyways).

also, just because he has the assassin emblem on his chest, I doubt many citizens are walking around going "oh, sweet shirt design, you must be part of that grand assassin order...." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

I think the addition of the brotherhood is maybe what is making the assassins seem so much more open, whereas before Altair and Ezio pretty much acted alone. It also doesnt help that we are constantly by Ezio and knowledgeable about what our assassins are doing, but the random citizen probably doesnt even see a quarter ( if any ) of the actions happening. They may witness a sword fight in the streets, or here an explosion, but Im sure with or without the assassins, these events still happened in that time. Whats important is the Assassins try to be stealthy, and try to keep there true intentions of there acts, and there battle with the templars a secret... which they do.

ProdiGurl
12-16-2011, 07:48 AM
It's not that there aren't valid points being made, but they are kind of pointless. We are experiencing an evolution of gameplay that is inextricably tied to the passage of time and life.

Highlighting stealth as the major component is kind of false, there were always three majors the free running, the combat, and the stealthy assassinations. All of which are still available.
Sure some Ai or outfits that allowed the Assassin to blend more realistically would be nice. And I would love for guards to throw a
caniption fit the minute I stood out too much like in 1, but only because I enjoy busting their chops.

Not to butt in here, but I thought I'd just add the note that I saw complaints about Ezio's outfit not being stylish/colorful enough or kool.
When he did fit in, the clothing style/dye was criticized.

@ Solidsage ya that's what it boils down to. How many cities & maps would Ubi have to create to keep this 'in the dark' thing going.
I can't imagine the amount of work they'd have to do to keep them "hidden' in rorating dens, clothing, new areas & the new styles for citizens & guards in each.

At some point fans just have to accept that these are games, they aren't real assassins & things have to change according to limitations, budgeting or time constraints and to keep things fresh w/ each installment.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

deadly_thought
12-16-2011, 07:53 AM
my apologies 16th century spiderman

congratulations on the pickup very useful find completely refudiates what i was saying 100%

after all this was a debate about the year ezio lived in......

CRUDFACE
12-16-2011, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by SF2themax:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@LightRey,

Actually the dens were under Ezio's control because they were templar towers before ezio got there and he/we took them. Also on ezio's robes is the Assassins symbol. U have to admit he is more open then how Altair was during combat and what he wore. Yea altiar had the symbol on that short sword holder but ezio had that too and the symbol on his chest.

About the models, I can say ubisoft did a better job this time providing ppl with a hat or veil in the same color of ezio's robes (somewhat). but for hoods i don't think anyone wears it. Are you saying that it's unrealistic that they don't wear hoods??

No sir, i wouldn't call it wrong. An observation, of course it doesn't count for everyone. Some ppl get scared and can't act but some have anger that builds up. How many ppl want to kill the person that took someone they loved away from them, it's more common then ur making it appear. It was wrong of us to assume that all the ppl should only do one thing, but either way that will still prove my point with some should want revenge. If u look at how ur saying they won't have the courage, if the templars already know about ezio and what he is and does. Why would the stalkers sneak attack him? They aren't scared little girls haha :P. I get what ur saying that they would run when they see many guards die in front of them, but i wasn't saying they shouldn't. I was saying that when they do run they should tell other's thus making ezio more known through the city which u agreed too. But AC doesn't take that into consideration. There are no more posters, but they will be informed enough to know if they see someone in ezio's robes or with his look at all that he was the assassin. They would know that he uses hidden blades, that he has bombs too, that he calls assassins to help him that magically teleport in the area hah.

but then look at it again i'm pretty sure tho, could be mistaken, that u can kill streak even the skilled guards. everyone except the janissaries, but i doubt brutes, spearmen and the captains are unskilled noobs. And just because someone in is the etire of a new officer doesn't mean that they're sword skill is that of a noob. Ur making that assumption

-The dens have been then before Ezio showed up though. Yusuf and his assassins have been battling with the templars long before Ezio arrived and control within those dens has probably gone back and forth between the assassins and the templars before then as well. Just because Ezio is helping them with this battle doesn't mean he has anything to do with how they are managed upon being recaptured.

-Im sure plenty of people back then wore hoods. Revelations did a much better job of making Ezio seem part of them then almost any other game save from AC1.

-Im not gonna adrs the whole point here, but I personally think its safe to say that most of the time, lower level guards who have watched a man take out 5 of the higher ups will most likely get the heck out of there. That seems pretty instinctual. This may not be the case for everyone, but I think from a gaming persepective, this is a tool to show that Ezio is somewhat feared by some of these lower level guards. And the stalkers are kind of scared, they attack only when you are not paying attention. If you turn around on them they will run, or just stand there like nothing, waiting for you to turn your back. They wont directly engage Ezio in open conflict. Lower level guards have been fleeing since AC1, this isnt really anything new.

-getting in open conflict does lead to your notoriety going up, and heralds talking about. No more posters, but Im kind of glad, those got annoying to tear down.

-IMO opinion, the assassin robes are really more of a trademark of the series, that iconic look. I dont think it would be necessary for Ezio to walk around in a normal outfit, but only have his assassin outfit on mission. I see the idea behind it, and it makes sense... but it just seems like overkill for a video game. Im willing to accept the fact that he probably wears more then just his robes, but we just dont see it. Also, I like to switch out the colors every few missions to give that feel that they might not recognize my new outfit as easily. I kind of wish they would implement that into the game more ( where in order to bring your notoriety down all the way, you need to change the outfit color.. but anyways).

also, just because he has the assassin emblem on his chest, I doubt many citizens are walking around going "oh, sweet shirt design, you must be part of that grand assassin order...." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

I think the addition of the brotherhood is maybe what is making the assassins seem so much more open, whereas before Altair and Ezio pretty much acted alone. It also doesnt help that we are constantly by Ezio and knowledgeable about what our assassins are doing, but the random citizen probably doesnt even see a quarter ( if any ) of the actions happening. They may witness a sword fight in the streets, or here an explosion, but Im sure with or without the assassins, these events still happened in that time. Whats important is the Assassins try to be stealthy, and try to keep there true intentions of there acts, and there battle with the templars a secret... which they do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

-With the Dens they're still to open as is the fighting that goes down between them. Especially with people (virtually everyone) who know about the Byzantines and the people they seem t be fighting on a daily basis. Which shows that someone of equal or greater power is fighting them. you are right about the dens being there from before Ezio.

-In Constantinople, the hood design was common, as were the robes, which made Ezio stand in more than usual, which was a vast improvement.

-People running from Ezio makes sense, especially when you've heard/seen what he does to people. I like that, make them seem less stupid.

-The robes are a trademark, and a nice one at that. Makes me wonder why they change white as the standard these days, lol. But since he does wear the emblem his chest, it lets people know he's associated with the bomb crafting stations located around the city as well as the towers the Byzantines and nicely equipped hidden robes men keep fighting in the streets over with Greek fire, cannons and barricades that spew both. Oh, lol and the bombs. All about the bombs!

-While they talk about that, most of the time, you see them in the open talking about their plans or doing stuff like fighting Byzantine near the port, blowing up harbors and practicing their moves out in the open like they did with the hookblade.

@Prodigurl: I know, and I do. But I'm only arguing this because people say this is realistic. And it really isn't. I take it as it is as it's a game, tbh

ProdiGurl
12-16-2011, 09:53 AM
-The dens were not under Ezio's control. Ezio was only a visitor in Constantinople. The order in Constantinople was under the complete supervision of Yusuf. Ezio wasn't directly in charge of anyone, except when carrying out specific missions with them.
He was open, the order wasn't. The order itself was hiding their true identity.

I wrote this very thing last night, but was too tired to finish, but I think it's an important point, Ezio is visiting Constaninople & Yusuf is running things - it's not Ezio's set up of the Order.
Neither was ACB's hideout, that was given to him when they were just starting out their Liberation of the City.
Another one he couldn't help & they didn't have the bankroll to just go start other places.



@Prodigurl: I know, and I do. But I'm only arguing this because people say this is realistic. And it really isn't. I take it as it is as it's a game, tbh

Gotcha, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I was adding input for other readers & to add to the discussion in general.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SolidSage
12-16-2011, 10:28 AM
I agree with a lot of what's been said here in regards to some of things that 'stand out' a bit and sort of contradict the realism of the environment.
But there is a significant bandwidth of realism that simply HAS to be ignored for the games to be games.
I mean, if they wanted to appease the fans wanting the realism all they would have to do is abandon scripting and story line and just work the pigeon coops. Drop a ton of contracts in there and let the player go at it, because Assassin's being so secretive and all probably wouldn't do a lot of face time.

AC1 was about Altair and the order, AC2,B&R are about Ezio and his life. Made all the more apparent by what is told in Embers. Just look at Ezio's connection to the Assassin's, his family is so tied up inside it. That's where Ezio's story lies, not in his destiny to be an Assassin.
It's because of this that I have no problem whatsoever with him being more like a warrior than a stealthy Ninja. I appreciate that he favors different methods than Altair, that we don't have to relive a character that is a carbon copy of the others, THAT adds to the realism.
All the minor game reality breaks, like Assassin logo's, AI clones, Ezio's weapon and armor load, alerts that go away when you hide for a couple of seconds....all that is to facilitate play.
It's the same in GTA, I'll run downa crowd of innocent pedestrians http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif...er, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif I mean 'bad guys', get the cops all alerted, and then all I have to do is escape the circle and I can turn around and go right back to the scene of the crime and run over some more. NOT REALISTIC AT ALL, but what, I should spend the next five years of my life in that game on the run from Johnny Law? It don't make no sense, to complain about that kind of stuff.
I will say that in AC1 it felt like the guards chased me around the city for a lot longer, qnd that they were harder to shake, but that was during initial play, I go back now and it's as easy to drop a tail in Jerusalem as any of the other Creed maps.

On every forum there is always a group of players that are hardcore supporters of the 'Original', and the defense they exhibit for it compared to the offense they feel from being exposed to it's sibling games is always the same. I think it's motivated less by fair game assessment and more by a desire to be the OG fans, old skool and therfore better or more entitled or something. That's just an opinion but thats what it feels like, its always a vey similar attitude, nothing is better in the new games, the story is always so much worse, along with game play etc etc.

I understand loving the initial exposure, that first discovery, but being depressed and refusing to accept anything that comes after as having equal worth is redundant, time is going to pass in spite of it, things ARE going to evoove and change, it is the natural progression of EVERYTHING, even a rock.

There are things that can be done to improve new AC's. Reverting to old AC mechanics isn't going to do it. Besides, you can't ask them to bring back things that are already in the game anyway.

Wear the Turkish Armor. Ezio blends in perfectly.

Dagio12
12-16-2011, 10:31 AM
@t260z

I always try to tackle the dens stealthily, but I understand what you mean. However, I believe that the assassins that are established in Constantinople are well aware that people may know of there presence.. but not entirely what they are all about or what there purpose is. Merely, that they are trying to keep these dens away from templar control, which in essence, is helping the people. Im sure the citizens are well aware that there is a battle going on between different factions and even know that these "hooded" men are invloved, but that doesnt HAVE to mean that they are aware of there intentions or what official 'order' they belong to. I guess in regards to the dens, it all depends on how you play and how you perceive it.

- and my take on the emblems being placed on things is merely aesthetic. It looks "cool" and lets players associate those things with the assassins. Even if those things would have really been there, I dont know if people unaware of the assassin order/templar order, would have put it all together. If anything they would have just assumed that those things were the property of some organization fighting in this war.

- the whole discussing things in the street. Well, its kind of like in a movie, when you hear two people at a restaurant talking about something, and you cant hear anything else, or wonder why they are being so loud.. lol.

I dont think they are actually being THAT loud and people are paying attention. We just pay attention because it is dialog we as players are meant to listen to.

Overall, they are a little more open, as they fight together, have a brotherhood, and operate from the city themselves and not with a big home base, but the organization itself and its intents are still well hidden to the knowledge of random people.

To most, they just seem like an organized group of people in a civil war of some kind with some other group.

LightRey
12-16-2011, 10:39 AM
Phew. Looks like we're finally coming to an agreement on most parts.

DavisP92
12-16-2011, 12:19 PM
@LightRey,

no, ezio was in charge of everyone because he was the mentor while Yusuf was only a master. Granted Yusuf had his own assassin recruits, but Ezio had his as well. And his were the ones in charge of the dens.

Good we agree with that, would be nice to see some ppl with hoods. I still would like to put the hood down sometimes.

it may be normal but doesn't mean it will happen all the time.

And about the smaller untrained group thing, that's not completely true. Look at the part where the citizens of Istanbul had that riot and tried killing the guards

@SF2,
hmmm, that is a good point. However Ezio still had control over them because he put his master assassin recruit in there as the leader. but if i am understanding u correctly ur saying it's Yusuf that isn't as stealthy when it comes to the dens?

ur statement doesn't prove anything at all sir, yea ppl may and probably did but it is not in AC.

the main point was it should do something to the notoriety system. and i'm not saying every lower guard should come back and try to kill Ezio or not run, but some should. U say that the stalkers are afriad of Ezio yet they still attack him, proving my point.

If a guard knows who u are and what u look like, just because a halord is bribed they shouldn't forget. agree with u on the posters, glad they're gone.

idk if it's the recruits that makes it feel more open or not. To me i say it's Ezio's actions, but with a arsenal like his it's kinda pointless to be stealthy. by the way they need to fix the gun, guards don't hear it. And about the citizens only seeing a quarter of it, that doesn't sound right to me. The hassassins killed in public to make a point, and send a warning. They killed in front of the citizens.

@Solid,
However, Ezio was trained by assassins.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying it has to be only stealthy. As u can see from the rest of this post. But i would like to see a equal amount of options. And more then one way to come at a target.

About the fotress thing, Altair was the one that disbanned it for the reason it wasn't stealthy and could be found easily. About the work in the dark thing, no i wasn't saying work at night (ninja style) but i refers to be unknown and remain a secret to serve those that are known like citizens.

refering to the weapon topic, i was saying they should provide the option to have less weapons. Realistcally a person wearing a lot of weapons would draw more attention, but i'm not saying take that out. Just provide a different playing experience if u go around in all armor and all weapons guards will follow u and watch u a lot more then me if i was wearing only the robes and some throwing knives.

Lol templar mind set http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

LightRey
12-16-2011, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@LightRey,

no, ezio was in charge of everyone because he was the mentor while Yusuf was only a master. Granted Yusuf had his own assassin recruits, but Ezio had his as well. And his were the ones in charge of the dens.

Good we agree with that, would be nice to see some ppl with hoods. I still would like to put the hood down sometimes.

it may be normal but doesn't mean it will happen all the time.

And about the smaller untrained group thing, that's not completely true. Look at the part where the citizens of Istanbul had that riot and tried killing the guards
-During the renaissance, the title of "Mentor" did not equal that of Grand Master. Each region had their own Assassin leader and in Constantinople that was Yusuf. Ezio had his own order in Italy. He certainly had significant status in Constantinople, but he had very little to do with the Assassin operations there unless it concerned his own interests.

-Well there is a trick for that in ACR I believe.

-Normal enough to happen all the time in the Animus. Remember, everything we see Ezio is doing is actually a simulation. We only see the things that actually happened to him, or were close enough not to cause desynchronization. Keeping that in mind it's most likely that events such as random fights with guards would in the simulation always play out in a similar matter.

-I'm not saying they're untrained. The thing is that the guards that run away generally run away if either 4 or more guards have been killed in a single fight with them present, or if several high ranking guards have been killed in a single fight, again with them present. They run away because they see how outmatched they are. Much more realistic than in AC1 where you had to massacre half a platoon before guards would run away and all at once too. Anyways this part of the discussion is a little off topic, so let's end it here.

gamertam
12-16-2011, 08:15 PM
I just remember something, Ezio didn't instigated the situation(s). Sure Ezio could've been more stealth like. But i don't think he would've backed down any fights if he finds it was unjust and un-neccessary.

SolidSage
12-16-2011, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by t260z:

And stealth is like...well, one of the gameplay pillars, but at the same time, i'm just saying we can tweak it a bit:

-Ezio only wears his robes on actual assassin missions instead of every time, like walking down the street with them on all the time.

-don't mark places that they own, including bomb dispersal places right near houses and towers that are landmarks

-don't talk about their plans as they walk through crowds all out in the open.

-And most of all, you can fight all you want and do other things like being loud/sneaker/cunning or using diversions. It's AC, it's a multi-path game, and I think full
synchronization ruined the mindset of some players by forcing them to do a thing a certain way, instead of their own way. It also doubles as Rage Quitting.

So for the more epic events, they shouldn't be things that catch the attention of everybody. Like burning the entire dock down with Greek fire, lol. That's OVERKILL! Also mentioned in a
few other gaming sites like kotaku.

I didn't give this post the time it deserved on the initial read.

-I agree with your tweaks, they would work fine. The 100% sync is a valuable set of challenges in the games. Maybe they shouldn't be front and center, demanding a play style from us, but they should certainly still exist, in the background, beckoning the interested players.

-The story in regards to Ezio's wishy washy Assassin'ness (My guy 'Assassinated' LOADS of AI, his way) and the burning of the ships..I guess you like it or you don't. Funnily enough, this was the one section from preview, that I thought I wouldn't like. I really enjoyed it, the flame thrower worked and responded well, and the run through the burning ships great. Wasn't it?
The movie 'excuse' for doing it was fine, how else would you get something like that in there. I don't expect my games to put their best work into the cut scenes and story...Mechanical execution is my number one concern.

Dagio12
12-16-2011, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:


@SF2,
hmmm, that is a good point. However Ezio still had control over them because he put his master assassin recruit in there as the leader. but if i am understanding u correctly ur saying it's Yusuf that isn't as stealthy when it comes to the dens?

ur statement doesn't prove anything at all sir, yea ppl may and probably did but it is not in AC.

the main point was it should do something to the notoriety system. and i'm not saying every lower guard should come back and try to kill Ezio or not run, but some should. U say that the stalkers are afriad of Ezio yet they still attack him, proving my point.


idk if it's the recruits that makes it feel more open or not. To me i say it's Ezio's actions, but with a arsenal like his it's kinda pointless to be stealthy. by the way they need to fix the gun, guards don't hear it. And about the citizens only seeing a quarter of it, that doesn't sound right to me. The hassassins killed in public to make a point, and send a warning. They killed in front of the citizens.



Im not really saying that Yusuf isnt stealthy. I just dont think that they are trying to hide the fact that they are trying to eliminate the templar threat from those districts.

As far as I can tell, the stalkers DO NOT attack you if you face them before they strike. They hold back, or run off. Thats just an observation when I have encountered them. Regardless, they could be scared, maybe not. Maybe they have nothing to live for, so they are hired to take him out whether they die or not.... idk.

just because they did things in public doesnt mean that every one in the town was there to witness it. They may hear about it, but thats a different story. And Ezio honestly didnt do a lot of his assassinations in the middle of the streets in publci. Usually in private sectors.

DavisP92
12-16-2011, 09:10 PM
@Lightrey,

Idk, when ubisoft says mentor they mean the highest rank in the brotherhood. Master assassin isn't mentor. I get that ur saying Yusuf would control things because he was already in command before Ezio. But ezio outranks him and thus if ezio says something it pretty much has to happen based on the concept of ranks. However, there is always wiggle room there, but I hope u get the idea i'm trying to say. Ezio is the true leader, one of the few mentors in the order.

yea i know about the glitch but that's not the same. I like the idea t260z said about wearing the iconic robe only when going on assassination missions. But a lot of ppl may not, but i'd like to at least see that we the gamers can take off the hood if we want without a glitch. It appears that a few ppl do want that, and i don't see why not put it in.They could even do some gameplay for it, giving a reason to take it off and put it on.

See this is where we have different thought patterns, u refer to the game as it's in the animus and that's why such and such. while I say it's like that because the developers either got lazy or just didn't care to do it.

And yes the running away factor is more realistic then what happened in AC1. But 4 games into the series and all they do is still run. They don't go and find help, or go crazy with fear and just attack without any restraint. It would be nice to see something different it's been 3 years now

Dagio12
12-16-2011, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@Lightrey,

Idk, when ubisoft says mentor they mean the highest rank in the brotherhood. Master assassin isn't mentor. I get that ur saying Yusuf would control things because he was already in command before Ezio. But ezio outranks him and thus if ezio says something it pretty much has to happen based on the concept of ranks. However, there is always wiggle room there, but I hope u get the idea i'm trying to say. Ezio is the true leader, one of the few mentors in the order.

yea i know about the glitch but that's not the same. I like the idea t260z said about wearing the iconic robe only when going on assassination missions. But a lot of ppl may not, but i'd like to at least see that we the gamers can take off the hood if we want without a glitch. It appears that a few ppl do want that, and i don't see why not put it in.They could even do some gameplay for it, giving a reason to take it off and put it on.

See this is where we have different thought patterns, u refer to the game as it's in the animus and that's why such and such. while I say it's like that because the developers either got lazy or just didn't care to do it.

And yes the running away factor is more realistic then what happened in AC1. But 4 games into the series and all they do is still run. They don't go and find help, or go crazy with fear and just attack without any restraint. It would be nice to see something different it's been 3 years now

well actually, even ubisoft made a point to clear up the whole mentor thing. Ezio is basically the mentor of the Italian Order and Yusuf is the Mentor for the Ottoman Order. Perhaps Ezio has been through more, however, since communication was so difficult back then, it would have been nearly impossible to have one central ruler (aka Menotor) and therefore each section would have there own mentor. Basically, For ranks sake, Ezio and Yusuf are equals to each other.

DavisP92
12-16-2011, 10:21 PM
@SF2themax,

I don't think ur right sir, Ubisoft has always said master assassin. Could u pls provide ur support. also in the game he says, "who is the mentor here" refering to Ezio is the mentor and Yusuf is not but he is teaching ezio new things. Also the AC wiki says master assassin. And in terms of rank i'm sorry if Ubisoft says that mentor is a higher rank then master assassin then it is. They can both be skilled and great leaders, but Ezio out ranks Yusuf

Dagio12
12-16-2011, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@SF2themax,

I don't think ur right sir, Ubisoft has always said master assassin. Could u pls provide ur support. also in the game he says, "who is the mentor here" refering to Ezio is the mentor and Yusuf is not but he is teaching ezio new things. Also the AC wiki says master assassin. And in terms of rank i'm sorry if Ubisoft says that mentor is a higher rank then master assassin then it is. They can both be skilled and great leaders, but Ezio out ranks Yusuf

i think i heard it on Escoblades podcast.

I know what you mean tho, they do refer to Ezio as the Mentor and Yusuf more as a Master Assassin, however, because of the times, it was almost impossible to really have a 'true' mentor, and therefore Ezio and Yusuf are pretty have pretty much the same power over there respective orders. Because of Ezios experience, he is probably more "legendary", but Ezio is more in control of his Italian Order then that of everyone elses. At least thats what I am getting.

DavisP92
12-16-2011, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by SF2themax:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@SF2themax,

I don't think ur right sir, Ubisoft has always said master assassin. Could u pls provide ur support. also in the game he says, "who is the mentor here" refering to Ezio is the mentor and Yusuf is not but he is teaching ezio new things. Also the AC wiki says master assassin. And in terms of rank i'm sorry if Ubisoft says that mentor is a higher rank then master assassin then it is. They can both be skilled and great leaders, but Ezio out ranks Yusuf

i think i heard it on Escoblades podcast.

I know what you mean tho, they do refer to Ezio as the Mentor and Yusuf more as a Master Assassin, however, because of the times, it was almost impossible to really have a 'true' mentor, and therefore Ezio and Yusuf are pretty have pretty much the same power over there respective orders. Because of Ezios experience, he is probably more "legendary", but Ezio is more in control of his Italian Order then that of everyone elses. At least thats what I am getting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can understand what ur saying, but I can't agree with it. Because the assassins know what is going with many of the other brotherhoods. Like how they know about another mentor in Alexandria that needed help because he was captured. And he was a descendent of Altair. So the game provides enough proof that the assassins were capable of communicating with each other. thus the term mentor would be known as true leader master of masters.

Edit: "The title of Mentor was given to leaders in the Assassin Order who had obtained an extraordinary amount of skill and wisdom, as well as trained several Assassin apprentices. During modern times, the title referred to the leader of the entire Order.

These Assassin leaders were Master Assassins assigned to lead the branches of Assassins spread around the globe, who were awarded with the unofficial title of Mentor once they had trained a specific number of apprentices and received a high amount of skill and wisdom."
~AC Wiki

CRUDFACE
12-17-2011, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by SF2themax:
@t260z

I always try to tackle the dens stealthily, but I understand what you mean. However, I believe that the assassins that are established in Constantinople are well aware that people may know of there presence.. but not entirely what they are all about or what there purpose is. Merely, that they are trying to keep these dens away from templar control, which in essence, is helping the people. Im sure the citizens are well aware that there is a battle going on between different factions and even know that these "hooded" men are invloved, but that doesnt HAVE to mean that they are aware of there intentions or what official 'order' they belong to. I guess in regards to the dens, it all depends on how you play and how you perceive it.

- and my take on the emblems being placed on things is merely aesthetic. It looks "cool" and lets players associate those things with the assassins. Even if those things would have really been there, I dont know if people unaware of the assassin order/templar order, would have put it all together. If anything they would have just assumed that those things were the property of some organization fighting in this war.

- the whole discussing things in the street. Well, its kind of like in a movie, when you hear two people at a restaurant talking about something, and you cant hear anything else, or wonder why they are being so loud.. lol.

I dont think they are actually being THAT loud and people are paying attention. We just pay attention because it is dialog we as players are meant to listen to.

Overall, they are a little more open, as they fight together, have a brotherhood, and operate from the city themselves and not with a big home base, but the organization itself and its intents are still well hidden to the knowledge of random people.

To most, they just seem like an organized group of people in a civil war of some kind with some other group.

As do I. I like being stealthy most of the times. And sometimes, I just like to mess around. It's fun and cool, but since a signal fire is going out, people are going to say how the assassins have taken the tower. As well as a change in appearence with throwing up graffiti on the tower, the stylized "A"

-Oh, yeah, I know it's for players, but since people were talking about things being realistic, I had to point it out. though where they re placed: streets, back of houses, people sitting right next to them eating or whatever...I think it'll be better if they put them high up, like they used to in Brotherhood.

Remember? It was cool because only other assassins could reach them with parkour skills. And the occasional pedestrian glitched with parkour, lmao.

-Yup, it is

-Yeah, they're that loud, they had events where they stormed and destroyed a bunch of stuff, leaving quite a few bodies behind. I think I already listed to two events that went overboard. Also, Ezio was pulled by parachute through a...was that a town outside of Constantinople? Yeah, that definitely caught the attention of people. Lol, especially when you hit them.

And I doubt people know the assassins are global, but I am saying that they have been outed in Constantinople as assassins since people automatically know who they are when you pick up the more specialized recruits (who start at higher levels), heralds, and the comments guards give you.

Still, as you, Lightrey, and others have said, I doubt they know what they're ultimate purpose is and all about they're history.

I just want them to be a bit more cautious is all. Like with the harbor, that could have been a series of missions to get us out instead f flame throwing the place.

@Lightrey: Agreement? *unsheathes sword* I WILL HAVE WAR! jk

@Pdavis: actually, the writer said on podcast and gamespot interview that assassins have one mentor per area, as their is a language barrier and other things int he way. Yusuf was the mentor of Constantinople, while Ezio is also one.

Proof is that Ezio didn't know of Assassins in China even though he was the mentor. Shown in AC: Embers.

In the future, our time, there is only one mentor.

DavisP92
12-17-2011, 08:38 AM
@t260z,

If he is the mentor then they messed up in the game, because Yusuf does not refer to himself as a mentor. Also AC wiki says it, and i have heard the devs say that Yusuf is a Master Assassin, and that every brotherhood has a leader but not a mentor. Not saying there can't be more then one because before the 20 first century there were more then one. Like Iskender.

CRUDFACE
12-17-2011, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@t260z,

If he is the mentor then they messed up in the game, because Yusuf does not refer to himself as a mentor. Also AC wiki says it, and i have heard the devs say that Yusuf is a Master Assassin, and that every brotherhood has a leader but not a mentor. Not saying there can't be more then one because before the 20 first century there were more then one. Like Iskender.

I know what you mean, but the guy who writes the series says that because of barriers, there is a mentor for each corner of the world in a way. but yeah, before us there were more than one. Iskander was related to Altair through his first son, right? Lol, just trying to get some things right here. Maybe I will pick up the fourth AC book.

And remember, the wiki is written by fans and it did use to say he was mentor, they changed it...again, lol.

DavisP92
12-17-2011, 09:34 PM
@t260z,

haha, well idk. What does the AC database say, the thing that gives you all the info about the characters while playing the game? Whatever it says i'll stand by :P. but Iskender, I can't say if he's Altair's grandson honestly. If altair died when he was 90 something and his Darim was 62 when Altair died. I'm guessing his son already had a son by then. And Ezio is what 200 years after Altair add 60 years to that. I'd probably say that Iskender is either Altair's grandson or great-grandson. Also if your referring to the Secret Crusades i don't think it was mentioned in that, I read that book. Which in my opinion was so much better then ACR and how it portrayed Altiar except for his last memory. I read about Iskender in one of the missions u send ur recruits too in Alexandria.

CRUDFACE
12-18-2011, 02:58 AM
YOU DID!? Huh, I never got that mission, but yeah lol, whatever. And I might start picking up the AC books.

I guess since nobody is arguing this anymore we've proven the point of assassins becoming to out in the open these days. They need to tone it down.

LightRey
12-18-2011, 03:56 AM
Darby and Falko have been quite helpful in clearing up the whole Mentor concept. They quite well explained that during the Renaissance, the title of Mentor was in no way equal to that of Grand Master. This was mostly because communication was slow and having one grand master would just be pointless. Ezio, as Il Mentore, had basically the same rank as any other master Assassin. His title simply gave him extra respect and signified the kind of function he had within the order (as he protects the order and its secrets as Il Mentore).

DavisP92
12-18-2011, 06:30 AM
@LightRey,

Realistically of course communication was too slow for a grand master. If i came across that i was arguing that he was the grand master then i apologize because that was not what i was trying to say. Only that Ezio is a mentor however mentor is a higher rank due to the fact that Ezio was already a master assassin in brotherhood and when Machiavelli finally stopped trying to become the leader he promoted Ezio. Promoting him from just master assassin to the mentor. Also idk if it was Darby but the AC dev team has said when showing of the game at first that mentor is the highest rank in the order. (until they make a new one hah)

@t260z,
Yea, he was captured and u had to save him. I've only read secret crusades, it would have been cool if they stayed close to that book for Altair.

And well yea i think the argument about stealth is somewhat agreed upon. That they need to "tone it down".

LightRey
12-18-2011, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@LightRey,

Realistically of course communication was too slow for a grand master. If i came across that i was arguing that he was the grand master then i apologize because that was not what i was trying to say. Only that Ezio is a mentor however mentor is a higher rank due to the fact that Ezio was already a master assassin in brotherhood and when Machiavelli finally stopped trying to become the leader he promoted Ezio. Promoting him from just master assassin to the mentor. Also idk if it was Darby but the AC dev team has said when showing of the game at first that mentor is the highest rank in the order. (until they make a new one hah)

@t260z,
Yea, he was captured and u had to save him. I've only read secret crusades, it would have been cool if they stayed close to that book for Altair.

And well yea i think the argument about stealth is somewhat agreed upon. That they need to "tone it down".
It is the highest rank in the order, but Ezio does not have direct control over the parts of the order outside of Rome, nor did he intend to interfere with any of the main projects that were going on in Constantinople, unless it benefited his personal goals. On several occasions Yusuf even points out that he needn't interfere with "their" business, to which Ezio generally responded that helping them could help him with his search for the seals.

Throughout the game it becomes quite clear that Yusuf often has his own responsibilities to the order in Constantinople while Ezio is simply trying to get the Masyaf keys and helping strengthening the order by retaking and protecting dens and recruiting and training new Assassins.

DavisP92
12-18-2011, 06:57 AM
@LightRey,

He may not control at all other parts outside of the Italian branch. but he controls his apprentices, which become master assassins in Istanbul. Yusuf was the master assassin/leader of the Istanbul assassin branch but Ezio came there only for his own goals but through gameplay gained control of some locations. All the dens u retake or just take for the first time are under Ezios control. Because it was under his recruits control, and Yusuf and Ezio had different recruits.

LightRey
12-18-2011, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@LightRey,

He may not control at all other parts outside of the Italian branch. but he controls his apprentices, which become master assassins in Istanbul. Yusuf was the master assassin/leader of the Istanbul assassin branch but Ezio came there only for his own goals but through gameplay gained control of some locations. All the dens u retake or just take for the first time are under Ezios control. Because it was under his recruits control, and Yusuf and Ezio had different recruits.
Not entirely. As can quite clearly be seen in the Master Assassin missions, he is only really supervising them, not controlling them. They generally make their own decisions regarding the control of the districts. Ezio merely checks up on them from time to time. He had little to nothing to do with any of the political decisions and was mostly focused on the recruits' training.

DavisP92
12-18-2011, 07:18 AM
@LightRey,

I think when an assassin becomes a master they become more self-sufficient thus they don't need help as much. Which is shown in Revelations somewhat, but mainly in PL. But they still were recruited by Ezio and have loyalty to him. And if u want to look at it that way, before they became master assassins, it was Ezio who took the dens and protected them when they were under attack. they were his/ours

LightRey
12-18-2011, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@LightRey,

I think when an assassin becomes a master they become more self-sufficient thus they don't need help as much. Which is shown in Revelations somewhat, but mainly in PL. But they still were recruited by Ezio and have loyalty to him. And if u want to look at it that way, before they became master assassins, it was Ezio who took the dens and protected them when they were under attack. they were his/ours
The dens specifically? maybe. The city itself? No.

DavisP92
12-18-2011, 09:16 AM
@LightRey,

But i never mentioned Ezio controlled the city, or at least i don't think i did. My argument was the dens because the ones ezio controlled had the Assassin symbol on it.

crash3
12-18-2011, 09:33 AM
One thing that confused me was when sending assassins on missions it showed on each city the % of templar control and assassin CONTROL. Surely assassins would be completely hidden from society or have an influence on the people, but never CONTROL, thats what the templars want, I think that was a big mistake on ubosfts part. Assassins are liberators, not rulers or controllers. ACR like ACB still felt too much like simply too factions fighting for control, whereas in AC1 if you killed your target the entire city is looking for you and you have to escape back to the 'shadows'.

Assassins should keep more to themselves and not real themselves so casually as Ezio seems to do.

DavisP92
12-18-2011, 10:53 AM
@Crash,

U make a good point, which is why i wish they kept the first concept in the X06 demo about escaping the city when u kill ur target.

LightRey
12-18-2011, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@LightRey,

But i never mentioned Ezio controlled the city, or at least i don't think i did. My argument was the dens because the ones ezio controlled had the Assassin symbol on it.
Well the dens were primarilly under the control of the (recruits training to become) Master Assassins Ezio had recruited (except the one in Galata, that one was only trained by him). The dens are simply Assassin bases in their respective districts. Just buildings really. There's not much to control.

LordWolv
12-18-2011, 12:33 PM
As a gang, they indeed notorious.

But as a brotherhood; organization; creed...
They remain hidden.

Five pages in 15 seconds. Aren't your proud, LightRey?

LightRey
12-18-2011, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Isaac500:
As a gang, they indeed notorious.

But as a brotherhood; organization; creed...
They remain hidden.

Five pages in 15 seconds. Aren't your proud, LightRey?
xD
Just tired, man. Just tired.

LordWolv
12-18-2011, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Isaac500:
As a gang, they indeed notorious.

But as a brotherhood; organization; creed...
They remain hidden.

Five pages in 15 seconds. Aren't your proud, LightRey?
xD
Just tired, man. Just tired. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I still chuckle every time you put bringing people to justice on these forums before sleep. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

DavisP92
12-18-2011, 10:00 PM
@Lightrey,

The dens were not under the recruits control when they were under level 10 so they were under Ezios control. Pdavis 1, lightrey 0. :P

CRUDFACE
12-19-2011, 01:18 AM
@Lightrey: can you disprove anything I've proven in game yet? And I see how you've switched your argument on swimming to it just being a gameplay function that people couldn't swim.

Also on the equipment, here, armor was worn full body, not in the style that Ezio brought them.

Lol, you say people wear armor, but you act as if each armor is the same. Also, each one is custom made to have the emblems around the city of the assassins and on another note, he initiates the payment of each shop. And not just equipment, but quite a bit more shops as well and the amount spent.

You also say people according to studies don't remember their attacker. But those are based on seeing them once and with bland clothing. Not on seeing them on a daily basis and never changing their clothes, which will be non descriptive unlike Ezio. People remember the clothes more than the face.

It's just a gameplay thing why they haven't been caught yet. Just As Prodigurl said I agree with.


Originally posted by Isaac500:
As a gang, they indeed notorious.

But as a brotherhood; organization; creed...
They remain hidden.

Five pages in 15 seconds. Aren't your proud, LightRey?

In Rome as well as Constantinople, no they aren't. Lol, they already call them assassins in both major cities. The first when they're looking for the assassins in Rome and the soldier tells Cesare that it's hard to find the assassins, showing that they know where they are. The other when in Constantinople when you recruit people, they know automatically who the assassins are at times.

And as I've already agreed, people don't know them on a global scale, but the citizens in the city know them as being in their city. And eventually, people do begin to talk.

People keep calling them gangs as I've already shown how people call them assassins...

LightRey
12-19-2011, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@Lightrey,

The dens were not under the recruits control when they were under level 10 so they were under Ezios control. Pdavis 1, lightrey 0. :P
No, at that point they were under Yusuf's control. He was the head assassin in Constantinople. Ezio had absolutely nothing to do with the politics of the city.

At no point in the game do you see him making political decisions in the interest of the Assassin order.

DavisP92
12-19-2011, 11:30 AM
@lightrey,

Lol have u even played ACR? when u start the game, the Assassin dens that YOU say were under Yusufs control were actually under templar control. when the game starts the 7 towers are called TEMPLAR towers not Yusuf towers or assassin towers. Sounds like ur just trying to say anything so u can continue this argument. But it's obvious that its over, and ur just failing now sir. and in the post u quoted i didn't refer to politics at all so now ur bringing things up that has nothing to do with posts which in ur words "your post doesn't matter"

LightRey
12-19-2011, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@lightrey,

Lol have u even played ACR? when u start the game, the Assassin dens that YOU say were under Yusufs control were actually under templar control. when the game starts the 7 towers are called TEMPLAR towers not Yusuf towers or assassin towers. Sounds like ur just trying to say anything so u can continue this argument. But it's obvious that its over, and ur just failing now sir. and in the post u quoted i didn't refer to politics at all so now ur bringing things up that has nothing to do with posts which in ur words "your post doesn't matter"
First of all you are incorrect. The first den in Galata is protected from the Templars and is never under their control. The second one was temporarily taken by the Templars and liberated by Ezio and Yusuf.

Throughout the entire game the only influence Ezio has on the politics of the city are when he's helping the Assassins assigned to the dens (and therefore their respective districts).

Are you absolutely kidding me about the politics? The dens are the very means by which the Assassins exert their control of (or rather opposing oppression in) the districts. That's why they're there in the first place. It's not like they're random bases. They're there so that the Assassins have a forward base so that they can quickly respond to any problems in the districts they're in. Why else do you think the prices drop in the shops? It's because the Byzantines can't tax the people there anymore.

Seriously, it's not like the Assassin Dens are simply houses for the Assassins to live in. That's ridiculous.

SolidSage
12-19-2011, 12:17 PM
There were Assassin's dens in AC1, with their own bosses, so thats not new. What is new is them being less hidden. So in that respect, the TS is correct, but it coincides with the growth of the Brotherhood and the loss of Masyaf as a stronghold.
Assassination wise they're no different. Altair wiped out the ruling class of entire cities, and there were plenty of times we ALL got busted and had to flee through the streets in front of everyone.

So, yes, but no.

lukaszep
12-19-2011, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@lightrey,

Lol have u even played ACR? when u start the game, the Assassin dens that YOU say were under Yusufs control were actually under templar control. when the game starts the 7 towers are called TEMPLAR towers not Yusuf towers or assassin towers. Sounds like ur just trying to say anything so u can continue this argument. But it's obvious that its over, and ur just failing now sir. and in the post u quoted i didn't refer to politics at all so now ur bringing things up that has nothing to do with posts which in ur words "your post doesn't matter"

SSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Why does everything have to turn into some kind of personal attack on Lightrey? You've been arguing about Assassin dens for far too long, and it's barely on topic anymore!

On topic. I started playing Assassin's Creed for the social aspects, which they stressed a lot when promoting the original game. From my POV stealth has slipped a lot. It is of course still there, but has an equal focus to Combat and everything else. Personally, i want stealth to take center stage again,

LightRey
12-19-2011, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by SolidSage:
There were Assassin's dens in AC1, with their own bosses, so thats not new. What is new is them being less hidden. So in that respect, the TS is correct, but it coincides with the growth of the Brotherhood and the loss of Masyaf as a stronghold.
Assassination wise they're no different. Altair wiped out the ruling class of entire cities, and there were plenty of times we ALL got busted and had to flee through the streets in front of everyone.

So, yes, but no.
Those weren't dens. Those were Assassin bureaus. They are only there for gathering intelligence and they had to be hidden because the Assassin Order was a well known military enemy in each of the cities.

SolidSage
12-19-2011, 12:26 PM
@Lightrey
Okay, but the presence was still there. And orders for hits were deployed there. The big difference being no front door and the logo being on the roof, not out front.

DavisP92
12-19-2011, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@lightrey,

Lol have u even played ACR? when u start the game, the Assassin dens that YOU say were under Yusufs control were actually under templar control. when the game starts the 7 towers are called TEMPLAR towers not Yusuf towers or assassin towers. Sounds like ur just trying to say anything so u can continue this argument. But it's obvious that its over, and ur just failing now sir. and in the post u quoted i didn't refer to politics at all so now ur bringing things up that has nothing to do with posts which in ur words "your post doesn't matter"
First of all you are incorrect. The first den in Galata is protected from the Templars and is never under their control. The second one was temporarily taken by the Templars and liberated by Ezio and Yusuf.

Throughout the entire game the only influence Ezio has on the politics of the city are when he's helping the Assassins assigned to the dens (and therefore their respective districts).

Are you absolutely kidding me about the politics? The dens are the very means by which the Assassins exert their control of (or rather opposing oppression in) the districts. That's why they're there in the first place. It's not like they're random bases. They're there so that the Assassins have a forward base so that they can quickly respond to any problems in the districts they're in. Why else do you think the prices drop in the shops? It's because the Byzantines can't tax the people there anymore.

Seriously, it's not like the Assassin Dens are simply houses for the Assassins to live in. That's ridiculous. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

seeing how our discussin was about stealth and not being seen and how the Dens have the Assassin symbol on them and we were discussing that. the argument of poilitcs was never part of the discussion. and i like how u say only 2 of them but not the other 5. Seeing how they were only shown as Templar towers and i like how u agreed that they were under Ezios control b4 and now ur not.

And again ur refering houses that assassins live in and saying they aren't that but noone said they weren't. what ur saying now has nothing to do with the orginal argument.

@Luka,

Hmmm... well if i do seem to be attacking Lightrey, then well my bad. However, his past discussion with me have not been... polite.

LightRey
12-19-2011, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
seeing how our discussin was about stealth and not being seen and how the Dens have the Assassin symbol on them and we were discussing that. the argument of poilitcs was never part of the discussion. and i like how u say only 2 of them but not the other 5. Seeing how they were only shown as Templar towers and i like how u agreed that they were under Ezios control b4 and now ur not.

And again ur refering houses that assassins live in and saying they aren't that but noone said they weren't. what ur saying now has nothing to do with the orginal argument.

@Luka,

Hmmm... well if i do seem to be attacking Lightrey, then well my bad. However, his past discussion with me have not been... polite.
I was never contesting that the dens didn't have the Assassin symbol on them. We had already discussed that. We had moved on to discuss whether Ezio had anything to do with them, which he didn't. He was not the one assigned to them, he was only the one who had taken the time to take them (back) from the Byzantines.

The dens were there as forward bases for the Assassins, to keep the Byzantines away.

DavisP92
12-19-2011, 01:07 PM
@Lightrey,

Ezio doesn't just take them and leaves them alone. He protects them, not Yusuf. Which automatically says Ezio plays a part in the dens. They are his because he is the only one that protects it, other then the other recruits. Yusuf doesn't. The only time he doesn't have to protect it is when the his recruits are doing it which u have agreed to. And they are ezios recruits not Yusufs

As for the symbols on the dens, that pretty much proves that assassins aren't as hidden as Altair had wanted. And if the dens are under ezios and his recruits control then he can easily say not to have the symbol on the dens. However, Ezio is not that obssessed with stealth mainly cuz he does walk around without blending with the crowd and wears the assassin symbol on his robes.

SolidSage
12-19-2011, 01:13 PM
@pdavis
Ezio recruits them but i doubt they are his. They wont follow him when he goes back to Florence or on to wherever, Constantinople is their home.
Ezio does have high authority as a Mentor, but the den defense actions are all geared to the cause of the Order, and specifically, Yusuf's franchise.
Ezio is somewhat paying for his keep by working for Yusuf's goals, in fact Yusuf instructed Ezio on the need to take back the towers, a job assignment so to speak. Ezio being a MA doesn't need 'managing' by Yusuf on this assignment.

Also, Assassins logos have always been on Assassin locations. Just a little bit harder to find.

DavisP92
12-19-2011, 01:17 PM
@Solid,

Here we have opposing views. I see the recruits as ezios because he is the one that found them and trained them and some would have died without Ezio being there. Yes they may stay in Istanbul but they have more loyalty towards him then Yusuf. Also when playing the game Ezio tells Yusuf to gather his men, of course assassins and u do see them but at the same time you have all ur recruits that u can call.

SolidSage
12-19-2011, 01:21 PM
@Pdavis
I might agree that those recruited by Ezio feel more loyalty to him.
I don't think the dens belong to Ezio though, although if push came to shove, the MA in control might be inclined to take his orders over Yusuf's.

LordWolv
12-19-2011, 01:28 PM
Ezio is the mentor; it doesn't matter who recruits them, a squirrel could and they would still be Ezio's. The owner of a company is in charge of his employees, even if his employer 'recruited' them. Same, of course, with the assassins. The dens are that of the assassins also, but technically Ezio's. Think of a business; their main headquarters would be owned by the business and the owner of the business would ultimately have control over the building ('indirectly' owning it). Same with the dens, also.

LightRey
12-19-2011, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@Lightrey,

Ezio doesn't just take them and leaves them alone. He protects them, not Yusuf. Which automatically says Ezio plays a part in the dens. They are his because he is the only one that protects it, other then the other recruits. Yusuf doesn't. The only time he doesn't have to protect it is when the his recruits are doing it which u have agreed to. And they are ezios recruits not Yusufs

As for the symbols on the dens, that pretty much proves that assassins aren't as hidden as Altair had wanted. And if the dens are under ezios and his recruits control then he can easily say not to have the symbol on the dens. However, Ezio is not that obssessed with stealth mainly cuz he does walk around without blending with the crowd and wears the assassin symbol on his robes.
Actually, Yusuf does protect them. He moves to the den that is retaken in sequence 2 to protect it from the Byzantines and only fails to do so because it was taken before he arrived and his forces were divided. The fact that Ezio can defend them in the game doesn't mean he's the only one there to do so.

No, it doesn't prove it. As I've reasoned before (which you of course haven't taken the time to read since you're just randomly ranting in this discussion and don't at all seem to care about what's already been discussed), the Assassins hide in plain sight. They are acting like they're some local "gang" of sorts, to avoid being suspected of being something more, like a global organization bent on safeguarding free will. Everybody except the associates of the Assassins and the Templars seems to be compeletely unaware of the scale or true purpose of the Assassin order. To most they just seem like a local gang of murderers bent on controlling the city.

LordWolv
12-19-2011, 01:34 PM
Yusuf is SPOILERS <span class="ev_code_WHITE">dead.</span>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

LightRey
12-19-2011, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Isaac500:
Yusuf is SPOILERS <span class="ev_code_WHITE">dead.</span>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
And SPOILERS<span class="ev_code_WHITE"> succeeded</span>.

LordWolv
12-19-2011, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Isaac500:
Yusuf is SPOILERS <span class="ev_code_WHITE">dead.</span>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
And SPOILERS<span class="ev_code_WHITE"> succeeded</span>. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just like you're SPOILERS <span class="ev_code_WHITE">annoying when you correct me or say things that I obviously meant.</span>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

DavisP92
12-19-2011, 01:45 PM
@Lightrey,

I'm refering to gameplay, in the game Yusuf does not take any templar tower at all. He only helps in that one mission. Sure he may have intended to take it but couldn't but from there on he had no part in it. Ezio is the one that owns/protects them.

And u shouldn't make assumptions, I've told u that before. I have read them, and who cares if they are pretending yo be a gang. They're flaunting they're symbol off, yes it's a cool symbol but if a Templar that is dressed as a civilian walks up to the den they would know it's the assassins. Which gives away they're location.

SolidSage
12-19-2011, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Isaac500:
Ezio is the mentor; it doesn't matter who recruits them, a squirrel could and they would still be Ezio's. The owner of a company is in charge of his employees, even if his employer 'recruited' them. Same, of course, with the assassins. The dens are that of the assassins also, but technically Ezio's. Think of a business; their main headquarters would be owned by the business and the owner of the business would ultimately have control over the building ('indirectly' owning it). Same with the dens, also.

And it does matter who recruits them. A squirrel wouldn't have the authority, so anybody dumb enough to be recruited by one, wouldn't be officially sanctioned by the order.
Thats like a bum recruiting you to the police force. Walk jnto that station and ask for keys to a cruiser, see how that goes over.

ProdiGurl
12-19-2011, 01:50 PM
In this game, ALL the dens were formerly Templar territory, so of course they know where Assassin dens are.
You take the den from the Templars & burn the tower as a sign that their power is eroding.

I think it's obvious to the Templars where they are & that's why they're trying to take it back now.
It almost seems lame that they haven't bothered to try to take back their territory if you think about it.

& I also agree that Yusuf is the "leader" of the Constantinople Assassins - Ezio's just passing thru & is helping him Mentor them.
In the beginning, Yusuf says he can't be in 2 places at once & asks for help keeping the den.
He welcomes Ezio's help.
I never saw Ezio "take over" as some King pin. He's highly regarded & respected by the assassins.

*Edit in*
But after Yusuf's misfortune, Ezio does assign a new Leader for the Assassin group - one who Yusuf trusted and would have chosen as well.
He didn't stay & take over.

LightRey
12-19-2011, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@Lightrey,

I'm refering to gameplay, in the game Yusuf does not take any templar tower at all. He only helps in that one mission. Sure he may have intended to take it but couldn't but from there on he had no part in it. Ezio is the one that owns/protects them.

And u shouldn't make assumptions, I've told u that before. I have read them, and who cares if they are pretending yo be a gang. They're flaunting they're symbol off, yes it's a cool symbol but if a Templar that is dressed as a civilian walks up to the den they would know it's the assassins. Which gives away they're location.
So what? It's not like the Templars didn't already know they were there. They took most of the dens from the Templars to begin with. The dens were never supposed to be hidden that way.

ProdiGurl
12-19-2011, 01:55 PM
The "A" logo on the den door appears more to be an insult & slap in the face to the Templars.
"This was yours, now it's ours".

?

DavisP92
12-19-2011, 01:57 PM
@Prodigirl,

It is lame that they don't try to take it back unless your notoriety goes up but that's a different story :P. The point is that the assassins are showing their symbol when commen sense would stop them. If ur trying to be stealthy u don't have the symbol that ur enemies know about all over a building or ur clothing.

I wasn't saying Ezio became the king pin, or took over everything. Only those dens, because he is the one protecting them. Yes Yusuf did say he can't be at two places at once, but he never was protecting the dens when Ezio was there except for that one mission.

LightRey
12-19-2011, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@Prodigirl,

It is lame that they don't try to take it back unless your notoriety goes up but that's a different story :P. The point is that the assassins are showing their symbol when commen sense would stop them. If ur trying to be stealthy u don't have the symbol that ur enemies know about all over a building or ur clothing.

I wasn't saying Ezio became the king pin, or took over everything. Only those dens, because he is the one protecting them. Yes Yusuf did say he can't be at two places at once, but he never was protecting the dens when Ezio was there except for that one mission.
Again, they are hiding in plain sight. The Assassin main base is completely hidden. If they didn't have those Assassin symbols on the dens the Templars would still be aware that the Assassins were there. The Assassins chased them away from it after all. Let's also not forget that the symbols also serve to keep the templars that are unaware of the den's recapture stay away as well.

Yusuf's likely defended the dens many times during Ezio's stay. The fact that he doesn't in the game is just gameplay mechanics. If a den is under attack Ezio should be the one to defend it else it'd make Den Defense almost completely obsolete.

lukaszep
12-19-2011, 02:23 PM
The dens belong to the Assassin's. Not Yusuf, not Ezio. The ASSASSIN'S. End of.

ProdiGurl
12-19-2011, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
@Prodigirl,

It is lame that they don't try to take it back unless your notoriety goes up but that's a different story :P. The point is that the assassins are showing their symbol when commen sense would stop them. If ur trying to be stealthy u don't have the symbol that ur enemies know about all over a building or ur clothing.

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">I don't know how to view this; where "fictional game" steps in and where Ubi is going in the wrong direction with too much exposure ?
As the creators & developers of AC, I like to think that they have a better handle on the characters they create and how the Order operates? I'm no expert on what AC has to be or do... and it's very possible that devs can decide when the Order deviates from things for whatever reasons.
This is why I'm more concerned with gameplay itself - my enjoyment of it. That may be narrow of me, but in the end, that's mostly what I care about as I play.
</span>

I wasn't saying Ezio became the king pin, or took over everything. Only those dens, because he is the one protecting them. Yes Yusuf did say he can't be at two places at once, but he never was protecting the dens when Ezio was there except for that one mission.

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">I'd have to watch the earlier comments from Yusuf w/ Ezio to form a better opinion. I think Ezio had to be doing alot w/ the Order in ACR bcuz we're playing Ezio & it's his finale'.
Yusuf asks for his help, maybe he was given those while Yusuf was busy elsewhere? He did say that the Templars were constantly giving them a hard time & they had to fight alot.
I dunno.
</span>

DavisP92
12-19-2011, 02:57 PM
@Lightrey,
That's great the maim base is hidden but their dens aren't. Technically the Templars are killed, well at least the way I played. I killed every Templar at the tower. Are u saying the symbol keeps Templars away? If so I see it doing the opposite. And where are u getting that from?

"Likely", as of now there isn't any proof (if u find some then great http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) in the game showing that Yusuf did. And den defense is obsolete, well in the way as it doesn't really matter after the first time u do it.

@Prodigirl,

I don't think anyone here is an expert on AC, and Ubi. should have a better handle on the game's story and concept. However, they have changed things in ways that lost its epic feel and made dumb choices, IMO. Like the Desmond missions in ACR. I'm with u more concerened with gameplay, but to me and some other ppl the stealth in the game hasn't been the best on the series lately. Or to be more accurate ubisoft is focussing more on open conflict and aggression rather than stealth. IMO, I'd like them both to be equal.

Yusuf was probably busy elsewhere, but we don't know what he was doing really. Or at least I don't, because I can't remember any reference to what he was doing

@Luke,

I could agree with the dens don't belong to anyone individually but to the assassins, however that would mean the assassins as a group aren't as stealthy as Altair wanted (from how I interpreted Altair's actions). Which allign with my point.

Black_Widow9
12-19-2011, 08:49 PM
Please remain civil. It is possible to have a discussion without an argument and insults. If you can't keep it that way this Topic will be locked and further action will be taken.

shobhit7777777
12-19-2011, 10:27 PM
This is an interesting topic...one that had me divided regarding the covert status of the Assassin's. The fact is that the Assassin's were part of a COVERT yet NOTORIOUS organisation.

The Assassin order was a secret organisation which was infamous....stealthy and at the same time known all over the world.

Their Modus operandi, their organisational heirarchy, numerical strength, goals and objectives were all kept in the dark.

What was known would likely be exaggerated stories and fabrications thanks to the lack of proper documenting techniques and communication gaps....all word-of-mouth.

So in the larger scale would it actually matter that Ezio and two of his cronies are seen shanking a Byzantine patrol in some district of Constantinople...a city of thousands, with gang war and political turmoil already prevalent?

Suppose you are a citizen at one of these districts....what you would likely hear from a dozen "eyewitnesses" would be of a hooded phantom who brutally slayed a thousand byzantines and then vanished in a black cloud. Something you would dismiss first hand as hearsay.

The Assassins can be compared to a modern day terrorist organisation...everyone knows of their existence, yet their precise location, tactics, organisational structure, finances etc. remain an unknown. You wouldn't recognise a "terrorist" even if he was walking down the street.
"But the Assassins all wear hoods!!"
And a majority of the religious extremist organisations are Middle Eastern in origin.......but does that mean that all people from that region are violent extremists? No. Of course not. People give them a benefit of the doubt.


Similarly when People see the Hooded, armed Ezio sauntering about they dont go all ape****, Their disbelief overcomes their suspicion "If he was an Assassin...why is strolling about the market?...Nah...could be a mercenary...yeah...look at the robes, definitely imported fabric...looks European. Yeah hes prolly a foreign merc...better get moving, the Bazaars about to close"

Plus, the Assassins also go out of their way to make themselves known..their MO entails a public, high profile attack, with the Assassin vanishing into the crowd after the kill. They WANT to cultivate the image of being a specter like organisation, striking and vanishing at will. If you read up on the Assassins you would notice their deployment of 'Fedayeen' attackers.

Overall, what I'm trying to say is that...the Assassins DO hide in plain sight...they maintain a legendary position of Existence, people know who they are...but they also maintain a cloak of secrecy enough to maintain operational effectiveness.

Just like Batman...people know he is there, there is a ******* Bat-sign BUT he strikes fast, stealthily and vanishes into thin air...further propagating his legend. There is nothing out there that can be turned into useful info and used against him

@LightRey

You made some good points regarding the covert nature of the Assassins, but I must admit that their portrayal in the games ACB onwards was a bit too overt for my liking.

In ACB all subtlety is lost when Ezio literally runs around with the apple of Eden battling a brigade of the Borgia guards. Now it may not have a particularly large impact down the annals of history...But as a AC fan and player...it made me cringe.

The game should emphasize situations where the Assassins are shown as being more covert. All this should not be left to the fans, to justify some really foolhardy and overt exposure. In that sense AC1 was truly the best depiction of the Assassin order. They maintained a strong, yet subtle profile. People knew they existed but their day to day activities were still super secret and stealthy.

Assassins are not real estate agents, they are not gangs, they are not soldiers.

Assassins are highly trained, dedicated, lone killers....who target specific people...to change the course of history...with one precise strike.

Thats why it felt 'weird' Ezio was out buying shops, waging open war and recruiting willy nilly (I mean come on how reliable a recruit would a pickpocket be for an order which is built on discipline and dedication to the cause)
Sure we may be able to justify it....but it just did not feel like the same Assassin order as it did in AC1. The Assassin order as shown in ACB and ACR would likely be crushed by Templars thanks to its heavyhanded tactics.


Assassins Creed needs to return to its old idea of a disciplined, covert order ENAGAGING SINGLE IMPORTANT TARGETS in stead of 'Rousing the people up' and leading resistance.
Assassins are supposed to show people the truth.....NOT sway them into joining a cause. Kill a man, bring to light the truth, change the prevailing events and let the people decide.

The mechanics of buying and renovation are a chore, and add NOTHING to Assassin gameplay...just like the exotic missions and the den defence.

LordWolv
12-19-2011, 11:54 PM
SPOILERS IN THIS POST

What happened when <span class="ev_code_WHITE">Yusuf died</span>, then? I'm assuming the properties and assassins were then owned by Ezio?

SolidSage
12-20-2011, 01:23 AM
"A hooded phantom who brutally slayed a thousand Byzantines" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif That's what happened in my animus session.


@Isaac
MORE SPOILERS
Ezio found the rest of Altairs keys, went to the library at Masyaf, spoke to Desmond and then left Constantinople with Sofia and bought a villa.
Probably with the profits he made from quitting the Assassin's and selling Yusuf's properties, (that you insist he owned, outright) to the Assassin's or whoever took over Yusuf's, or his own, responsibilities.

InfectedNation
12-20-2011, 03:50 AM
EVEN MORE SPOILERS - For the Game and Novel

What the novel (don't shoot the messenger) says is:

Dogan (the guy in the mask you meet in your first Den Defense) is made Master of the Turkish Assassins.

Yusuf's property therefore was most likely owned by Dogan and the Turkish Assassins.

Azize (another Turkish assassin who was kidnapped and used as the Galata tower decoy for Sofia) looks after the bookshop while Ezio and Sofia are in Masyaf.

When they return to Constantinople, Selim allows Ezio to stay a short while, and Azize + the assassins buy the bookshop from Sofia and hide the Masyaf keys in the Cistern in which we found the first one - which are then sorta guarded by assassins.

Ezio and Sofia then return to Italy but I'm not gonna go into detail on that because I've said enough already

EDIT: Except that it's the money from selling the bookshop that they use to buy the villa in Tuscany

dxsxhxcx
12-20-2011, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by Isaac500:
SPOILERS IN THIS POST

What happened when <span class="ev_code_WHITE">Yusuf died</span>, then? I'm assuming the properties and assassins were then owned by Ezio?

if I'm not wrong he passed the Order to one of his apprentices...

ON TOPIC:
I agree with what shobhit7777777 said, it's time to make the assassins actions more subtle in the game again and stop burning ships or have "gang wars" in the middle of the street for everyone to see...

I can't help but think that if the next game will be in the French revolution we'll still see this kind of thing, I just hope they were smart enough to not make this another war between Assassins and Templars where the Assassins are the revolutionaries and the Templars are the people against who they're fighting, instead of this make the assassin be a "spy", infiltrated in the revolutionaries (or even the other side, why not?!) to use them to gain access to information and use "key" moments in the battle to strike without being noticed instead of shout he is the french version of Ezio Auditore da Firenze to everyone who want to hear...

ProdiGurl
12-20-2011, 04:41 AM
@ infected, thanks for that info.



Originally posted by dxsxhxcx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Isaac500:
SPOILERS IN THIS POST

What happened when <span class="ev_code_WHITE">Yusuf died</span>, then? I'm assuming the properties and assassins were then owned by Ezio?

if I'm not wrong he passed the Order to one of his apprentices... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right - I think I mentioned it in an earlier post here.
Ezio gathered the Assassins together & put one of Yusuf's most trusted Assassins in charge & said he believed Yusuf would want it that way.


In ACB all subtlety is lost when Ezio literally runs around with the apple of Eden battling a brigade of the Borgia guards. Now it may not have a particularly large impact down the annals of history...But as a AC fan and player...it made me cringe.

The problem I see is that we have to play a game - we cannot do everything where it involves 300 armed guards chasing us down, in the back of some vacant parking lot in the dark.

I mean, I do understand the point about some if this, but at the same time, I'd worry if the game shifted to *everything being done only in isolated areas to make sure nobody was around.
That would just plain get tedious and annoying after awhile.

So I go back to the balance of Realism in AC games. How realistic are they going to have to get to appease the analytically critical & how much should we ignore to enjoy a fun game?

LightRey
12-20-2011, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by Isaac500:
SPOILERS IN THIS POST

What happened when <span class="ev_code_WHITE">Yusuf died</span>, then? I'm assuming the properties and assassins were then owned by Ezio?
SPOILERS<span class="ev_code_WHITE"> Well, since you can get Yusuf's sword in the game I assume Ezio inherited that from him. However, most other things likely went to his successor.</span>

DavisP92
12-20-2011, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Isaac500:
SPOILERS IN THIS POST

What happened when <span class="ev_code_WHITE">Yusuf died</span>, then? I'm assuming the properties and assassins were then owned by Ezio?
SPOILERS<span class="ev_code_WHITE"> Well, since you can get Yusuf's sword in the game I assume Ezio inherited that from him. However, most other things likely went to his successor.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's a odd thing, cuz i think u can get his sword before that sequence. Cuz i think i have it now and Spoilers <span class="ev_code_WHITE">He hasn't died, and that sucks Yusuf was so cool haha</span>

SolidSage
12-20-2011, 10:36 AM
@Infected
Thanks for the breakdown. nice to have some literature that we can all atest to.

@All
I think the ship burning sequence was just fine in the context of being an assassin. It was a shizstorm, Ezio caused a rucus, got on the hoof, crushed the enemy and got out of their qucik fast and in a hurry.
He was singing "anchors away" and enjoying the morning salt air before the fire department had even hit the docks.
Plenty of secrecy, try picking out the culprit amidst all that smoke and sinking ships and charred humanity. Not happening, a perfect escape in fact, the chaos could be attributed to any number of hostile factions.
I'm sure the last thing anyone would suspect, is that a lone assassin caused all the carnage.

ProdiGurl
12-20-2011, 11:55 AM
As much as I love all the covert, solo stealth missions & Tower torching, I really did love the cinematic action sequences they threw in for a change.

Ezio wasn't out in the open, only guards were on those ships & there was alot of destruction & fire going on... nothing the common fisherman was observing imo.

Again, for gameplay, we have to accept some deviations or else I'm sorry I really would get bored without any syncing, just going around doing the same types of missions all by myself.

SolidSage
12-20-2011, 04:04 PM
I hear you Prodigurl, the stealth aspect shouldn't be ignored, its valuable, and that full immersion in it, that a lot of players love should be facilitated.
At the same time, I love the combat and wide open destructiveness of some of the exotic sequences, and would hate to lose them.

I know there is a debate going on about how Assassin's are supposed to work in secret and all that, but in my mind, that can be done by wearing the uniform of some military organization or the other and basically being as overt as they like, while casting suspicion on an enemy.
The idea of a more war like period and environment interests me. Real battles going on, allowing us to operate in a wor torn, and somewhat partially destroyed environment (like Acre or the Cesare showdown at the end of ACB) without fear of upsetting the calm social norm.

Feudal Japan, Rennaissance France....so many options.

nuncfluens
12-21-2011, 02:28 AM
Brotherhood killed subtlety and Revelations dumped the body. For crying out loud there's a scene toward the end of ACB where team Ezio literally yells "VICTORY TO THE ASSASSINS!" before discarding their "Assassino #1" foam fingers and charging Cesare in the middle of a crowded piazza. If Altair thought about pulling a crapper like that in Damascus he'd be repurposed as a sword rack by the combined forces of King Richard and Saladin before you could say "Abstergo," not to mention that den defense is to strategy and tact what a sledgehammer is to neurosurgery.

On a gameplay level, however, it's important to remember just how much control you have in Assassin's Creed. There's nothing like mowing down an entire contingent of guards in an all-out fireworks display of blood, bullets and flashing blades, but you can also choose stealth and simply sneak by them in more cases than not. And as outrageous as den defense may be, it only crops up when you let your notoriety get out of hand. (Consequently, I'm left wondering whether Ubisoft intends it as a punishment for being careless or wants us to enjoy the new feature it programmed... the balance between fun and realism in a series like this must be hard to agree on, which is why I'm not bothered by having the option to commit outrageous public atrocities. It's just entertaining.)

The player's choices, aside, the order itself needs to return to the covert. The whole tenet of hiding in plain sight has more or less fallen by the wayside even though the story indicates that technically, high profile assassinations were the norm in Altair's time, with the brotherhood opting for careful discretion as it moved to Ezio's era. It's backwards, and needs to be looked at.

ProdiGurl
12-21-2011, 04:07 AM
But you also have to take into account the time period and situation/circumstances our Assassin finds themselves in.

You have to take into account the individual Assassin & their style.
How many Assassin leaders got corrupted, betrayed their order & made mistakes? Plenty so far.

If you don't allow for any story line and human error & personal style by our Protagonist, you're going to have a predictable game in some ways.

We saw w/ Altair how different his style was & the choices he made - while people like Ezio have a different style due to what shaped them in their past.

I actually prefer Ezio's where he just goes in & wipes the baddies out - if it has to be in public, so be it.
Altair retreated & stayed silent to be the good guy & bide his time.
No thanks. This is just my point, I think Ubi should create unique characters that SOMETIMES don't follow the golden rules to get a job done.
Who are their own person & have their own hangups & styles... who may just risk the Order at some point.
Heck, it would make a good piece of a story to have a consequence where the Protagonist screws up & something serious happens bcuz of it.

Allow for situations to be written in - that's what a good story is all about imo.
I honestly like that - esp. for gameplay's sake.
It's a GAME first & foremost & gameplay should never get boring & suffer bcuz people demand that the Creed be followed to the letter or else bash Ubi.

I want character flaws, I want character individuality, personality.... interest... & even some rebellion
while staying as close to the formula as possible.

Look at Maria in ACR - SPOILER - <span class="ev_code_WHITE">her quest for goodness caused her demise and the Order to suffer for many years with alot of deaths due to it.</span> [END SPOILER]
If Ezio was in charge, that wouldn't of happened imo. Sure bad consequences would have come either way, but ... I'd of done it that way myself - screw a creed when other circumstances arise that force the necessity of
alternative actions.
(and isn't THAT basically what the creed is about? Don't blindly follow something/someone unquestioningly which tells you that you have to be ________ fill in the blank ... sometimes unorthodox things must be done for the greater good - which is what the Assassins are there for.

I believe that should include their own beloved Creed that may have to be bent occasionally.

LightRey
12-21-2011, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by Pdavis3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Isaac500:
SPOILERS IN THIS POST

What happened when <span class="ev_code_WHITE">Yusuf died</span>, then? I'm assuming the properties and assassins were then owned by Ezio?
SPOILERS<span class="ev_code_WHITE"> Well, since you can get Yusuf's sword in the game I assume Ezio inherited that from him. However, most other things likely went to his successor.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's a odd thing, cuz i think u can get his sword before that sequence. Cuz i think i have it now and Spoilers <span class="ev_code_WHITE">He hasn't died, and that sucks Yusuf was so cool haha</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, that's true. However, SPOILERS <span class="ev_code_WHITE">since Yusuf was actually most likely using his sword up till his death, I think it's safe to say that Ezio actually got it after his death. Either way I don't think it matters much. Yusuf's successor and/or his family would've inherited most of Yusuf's possessions and responsibilities.</span>

DavisP92
12-21-2011, 10:10 AM
either way he has it, before or after. Although i didn't really use his sword. I liked the first sword in the game over all

SolidSage
12-21-2011, 10:57 AM
@nuncfluens and prodigurl

Those were both valid and good opinions on the topic. Oddly I find myself agreeing with them both.

I think, the future story should perhaps address some of the errors in maintaining the a Brotherhood's secrecy. Then again, I guess it already has, Vidic(?) and the Templars do seem to know a lot about the Assassin's, so it's almost like my overt destructive tendencies in the games, has been written in already.

Nice one Ubi. I guess I am a bit predictable, give me an awesome combat engine and a ton of AI willing to fall on my sword, and it's not difficult to figure out how concerned about the 'Creed' I'm going to be. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif