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jayhall0315
08-30-2008, 05:47 AM
Just curious as to how much something like a F4U-D Corsair would cost at its production time in say 1944 (in US dollars) and how much would a fully functioning Corsair cost for a collector in today's world. I know a F/A-18 costs something like $45 million, but have little way of comparing that to a Corsair's cost.

Any of you WWII air buffs help out ?

Jay

R_Target
08-30-2008, 05:56 AM
40,000-50,000 in 1940's dollars is probably close for Corsair. F6F at about two-thirds of that.

RegRag1977
08-30-2008, 05:58 AM
Interesting R_Target,

i wonder what one could do with that amount of money at that time?

Could be interesting to compare with the price of today fighters if you or somebody else know.

Kettenhunde
08-30-2008, 06:59 AM
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8504/thecostofusaafaircraftkg9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/thecostofusaafaircraftkg9.jpg/1/w707.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img213/thecostofusaafaircraftkg9.jpg/1/)

Here is an example of the cost of a P51D today. Keep in mind the P-51 is one of the cheapest of the WWII fighters to purchase:

http://www.pilotmarket.com/aircrafts/Aircraft_For_Sale/...n/listing-12577.html (http://www.pilotmarket.com/aircrafts/Aircraft_For_Sale/Aerobatic/North_American/listing-12577.html)

All the best,

Crumpp

luftluuver
08-30-2008, 07:29 AM
So if the P-51 cost $55,000 in WW2, what would be its equivalent cost today?

A loaf of bread cost around $.05 back then but around $3.00 today.

VF-17_Jolly
08-30-2008, 08:25 AM
just watched an old docu about the C.A.F when the first started they picked up a P-51 for about $1200

R_Target
08-30-2008, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Interesting R_Target,

i wonder what one could do with that amount of money at that time?

Wait 'til 1951 and buy eight Hellcats. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif


Could be interesting to compare with the price of today fighters if you or somebody else know.

My guess is that today's planes are hundreds, if not thousands of times more expensive.

zardozid
08-30-2008, 09:00 AM
Interesting topic and one I have "day dreamed" over myself...well I think its time to put a "semi-scientific" end to these musings...

Going by the list that "Kettenhunde" provided (for the price of a new/factory fresh fighterplane) the price of a P-38 in 1943 was $105,567...calculation by the rate of inflation would put the price in 2007 at $1,252,940.79.

P-51 in 2007 would be $698,163.15

And a B-17 heavy bomber in 2007 would be $3,260,858.77


Fun stuff... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


Have some fun of your own calculating the price differences between (almost) any year and 2007 here. (http://www.westegg.com/inflation/)

And here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21105586/) is an article you WILL find very interesting about the price and difference in outfitting a soldier in WW2 and today...

http://www.granitegrok.com/pix/WW2.jpg

Vinnie_Gumbat
08-30-2008, 09:56 AM
Factory fresh F4U-4 was about $88,000 in 1944
half or which was powerplant/engine.

A few years back I helped with a study to build
new P-51D airframes and engines.
It was partly fantasy as RR will not let you manufacture
new Merlins and Piper holds the rights to all P-51 designs.

In 1998 on a limited production basis, exclusive of insurance it worked
out to be about $1,200,000 per unit at one per month
also exclusive of spares for a P-51D.
That means a civillian P-51 with NO provisions for military equipment
and all modern electronics.
That price reflects complete manufacture of everything but the electronics and fasteners since
so little is available as new manufacture today.

Roughly double the price with all applicable insurance.

One note, despite inflation the price would be lower today as the price, speed and availability
of flexable high speed machining centers and computers has gone down.
The time required to do the CAD and machining will be about 1/3 that of 1998!

Vinnie

zardozid
08-30-2008, 11:14 AM
Sorry, no hi-jack intended but...

I love this picture...tell me this guy isn't carrying around a pen in his pocket? Nerds in combat(?)...

http://www.granitegrok.com/pix/WW2.jpg

crucislancer
08-30-2008, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by zardozid:
Sorry, no hi-jack intended but...

I love this picture...tell me this guy isn't carrying around a pen in his pocket? Nerds in combat(?)...

http://www.granitegrok.com/pix/WW2.jpg

Wasn't this picture used for the CD cover of Ken Burn's War documentary?

Viper2005_
08-30-2008, 12:02 PM
One way of comparing historical prices with current prices is to look at GDP.

http://www.bea.gov/scb/account_articles/national/0400niw2/table2.htm

So for say 1944, US GDP is given as 1714.1 billion USD in 1996 USD.

By 1998 it was 8495.7 billion USD, again in 1996 USD.

The difference between those two numbers is about a factor of 5.

Obviously referenced against the current US GDP the factor would be bigger.

What does this mean?

Essentially, the prices in the table represented 5 times as large a chunk of total US GDP as they would have done in 1998.

Therefore, one might consider the prices to be 5 times as expensive as the raw figures suggest, because the total production "pot" was only 1/5th of its size in 1998.

Very loosely, one might therefore multiply the numbers in the table by a factor of 5 to get their value in 1998 USD. This is obviously not rigorous, but it gives a first-order approximation.

Aircraft have become increasingly expensive in real terms since 1903. However, their capability has also increased. Provided that sufficient capital is available, you get more for your money today than you would have done in the past. However, we are today reaching the point where even very successful aeroplanes are bought in hundreds rather than tens of thousands, and this suggests that fairly soon we will (if we haven't already) reach the point where capital cost becomes so significant that designers are forced to trade considerable amounts of capability for increased volume of production in order to actually get their aeroplanes into the sky. Half an aeroplane isn't very useful!

Vinnie_Gumbat
08-30-2008, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
One way of comparing historical prices with current prices is to look at GDP.

http://www.bea.gov/scb/account_articles/national/0400niw2/table2.htm

So for say 1944, US GDP is given as 1714.1 billion USD in 1996 USD.

By 1998 it was 8495.7 billion USD, again in 1996 USD.

The difference between those two numbers is about a factor of 5.

Obviously referenced against the current US GDP the factor would be bigger.

What does this mean?

Essentially, the prices in the table represented 5 times as large a chunk of total US GDP as they would have done in 1998.

Therefore, one might consider the prices to be 5 times as expensive as the raw figures suggest, because the total production "pot" was only 1/5th of its size in 1998.

Very loosely, one might therefore multiply the numbers in the table by a factor of 5 to get their value in 1998 USD. This is obviously not rigorous, but it gives a first-order approximation.

Aircraft have become increasingly expensive in real terms since 1903. However, their capability has also increased. Provided that sufficient capital is available, you get more for your money today than you would have done in the past. However, we are today reaching the point where even very successful aeroplanes are bought in hundreds rather than tens of thousands, and this suggests that fairly soon we will (if we haven't already) reach the point where capital cost becomes so significant that designers are forced to trade considerable amounts of capability for increased volume of production in order to actually get their aeroplanes into the sky. Half an aeroplane isn't very useful!

Figured in a lifetime's earnings in 1944 to the same in 1998 is a better comparison.

A limited run of P-51 airframes and powerplants is far cheaper today than in 1944.

But a full blown production run of 24 aircraft a day in late 1944 sees the planes at less than 1/6 the relitive price.

What makes it cheaper to do small runs today is
modern computers and flexable machining centers.
Back then you had to build dies and hand form most everything else in an airframe.

Engine manuifacture had similar limitations.

Vinnie

Skoshi Tiger
08-30-2008, 07:12 PM
As a point of interest, At the end of war in Australia a crated spitfire was going for something like 60 Pounds for scrap but a working Jeep was worth about 100 Pounds.

My Dad looked into buying a Surplus Catalina Flying Boat (for starting a fresh seafood transport business - I think he had spent too much time in the Jungle), It would have gone for about 300 Pounds

A residential house on a quarter acre block in an inner suburb of Perth was about 300 Pounds! In the end he went for the house!

One of the problems is that alot of this surplus equipment was in very isolated places and transport was very expensive.

Alot of the surplus in Darwin rotted away because it was housed in the open.

zardozid
08-31-2008, 12:32 AM
well, the calculations needed to truly and accurately figure out the unit price per fighter today as compared to (say) 1943 is far more complex and involves many more variables then what we are considering here (we are not considering: technological changes in manufacturing, the evolution of materials, and the cost of domestic "skilled" labor. Just to name a few)...but we could simplify the equation to that of the rate of inflation. The figures on inflation represent the change in prices for all goods and services as purchased by consumers for a given year. Even though we are talking about the manufacture and sale of military hardware and not household goods & services...we are still talking about a product produced in a free market environment. The manufacturer still had to purchase the raw materials at competitive prices...they still had to pay their employees a "living wage"...and they still had to make a profit (and ugly fact of the wartime economy) for their shareholders. Their for I believe we could calculate a rough estimate per unit using the government inflation records... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

P.FunkAdelic
08-31-2008, 01:55 AM
You also have to take into account the wartime economics of it all. We're living in a different time. We have a peacetime war machine. Aircraft built today are also, at least in the USA and its allies, considered significantly less expendable. The 'market' value of an F-18 for instance is much higher since they make far fewer of them than they did of almost anything in WW2. The scale of war is much smaller. The majority of lifetime losses for many designs I'm sure are related more to accidents than combat losses.

Skycat_2
08-31-2008, 02:36 AM
What Things Cost in 1944: (http://www.tvhistory.tv/1944%20QF.htm)
Car: $1,220
Gasoline: 21 cents/gal
House: $8,600
Bread: 9 cents/loaf
Milk: 62 cents/gal
Postage Stamp: 3 cents
Stock Market: 152
Average Annual Salary: $2,600
Minimum Wage: 30 cents per hour

In this context a single P-51 fighter was worth six houses or 41 cars. A single B-17 bomber was worth almost 24 houses or 167 cars.

Just for fun, a new Ford Mustang car costs about $24,000. Using this as a standard for comparison, a new P-51 fighter would cost almost a million contemporary dollars and a B-17 would cost over $4 million.

Vinnie_Gumbat
08-31-2008, 07:07 AM
Back in the mid 1970's my father and I had a P-51D surveyed.
Asking price was (can't remember the exact figure) about $6,000 certified, registered and fly it away.

That was about the same as a new Cessna 150.

Two issues prevented the deal, one was the fact
that any old fighter plane was inherently dangerous to fly.
Second, he wanted a Cessna.

WWII Fighters were cheap and still being scrapped for little more reason than needing an overhaul in the 1970s.

I remember a few B-17s being scrapped as derelicts in the late 1960s, maybe early 1970s.
All were parked as airworthy!
I believe they were retired firebombers.

The warbird movement as we know it got going in the 1980s.

I still cringe thinking of the historic aircraft I saw being cut up!

Vinnie

K_Freddie
08-31-2008, 07:40 AM
Last year Flugwerks FW190 was going for 750K - 800K (Euros) depending on the goodies you put in it

jayhall0315
08-31-2008, 09:45 AM
Hey guys, just want to say thanks for giving me this good info. I love the F4U-D Corsair and took my Hyperlobby name after its Japanese nickname (despite the fact the F4U is not easy to fly in IL2) and was always curious as to how much it would cost. ...and now I have a good idea.

Personally, I think if fabulous wealth should come my way in this lifetime, I might do what the actor Michael Dorn has done and buy some private WWII warbirds or previous generation jets. I could not imagine how nice it would be to have my very own F4U parked at the local airport.

Jay

WTE_Galway
08-31-2008, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Vinnie_Gumbat:
Back in the mid 1970's my father and I had a P-51D surveyed.
Asking price was (can't remember the exact figure) about $6,000 certified, registered and fly it away.

That was about the same as a new Cessna 150.

Two issues prevented the deal, one was the fact
that any old fighter plane was inherently dangerous to fly.
Second, he wanted a Cessna.

WWII Fighters were cheap and still being scrapped for little more reason than needing an overhaul in the 1970s.

I remember a few B-17s being scrapped as derelicts in the late 1960s, maybe early 1970s.
All were parked as airworthy!
I believe they were retired firebombers.

The warbird movement as we know it got going in the 1980s.

I still cringe thinking of the historic aircraft I saw being cut up!

Vinnie

I rememebr visiting a aircraft wrecking yard in teh 70's. I got the impression they got more for the merlin and griffon engines from boat racing enthusiasts (who happily blew up several merlins a season) then they did for the plane intact.

Buzzsaw-
08-31-2008, 05:31 PM
Salute

Prices for flyable Warbirds vary from around 1.5 million to 4 million.

A fellow I know by the name of George Maude bought an RCAF P-40E in 1946, (complete with spare Allison) for $50 dollars Canadian. It was one of those used as air defence of the West Coast. He kept it stored inside for a number of years, it is in very good shape now, but not rated airworthy, it could quite easily become flyable, but it would need to go through a lot of fairly costly maintenance. Latest offer I heard was for over 1 million.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/p40hawksnest/Survivors/AK803/MaudeP-40001a.jpg

Photo courtesy Trevor McTavish.

Aircraft site and starting up is here:

http://www.rcafkittyhawk.com/runningthep40.htm

K_Freddie
08-31-2008, 07:11 PM
DDrrrrooooollllll.. sluuurrrrp want want pant pant http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

jayhall0315
09-01-2008, 02:29 AM
Since we are on the topic already, which WWII warbird is the most sought after by collectors or the fabulously rich ?

Even if I had ~1 to 4 million dollars just laying around, which type of Warbird would be the hardest for me to attain ? And, just as you can find restored Corsairs and P-51s in North America and Europe, can you find restored Lavochkins in Russia or Eastern Europe ?

Jay

STENKA_69.GIAP
09-01-2008, 06:09 AM
I just had a look at what is currently up for sale.

I can get you the following

Bearcat $1 875 000
Seafury $ 725 000
Bouchon (Spanish 109) $1 200 000

Or if you are on the dole and need something cheaper There are plenty of Texan's at around $200 000. You can also convert these to do a Zero look-alike quite cheaply.

Currently I can't afford any of these but I did have a look at a 7/8 scale SE5a replica which sold for 10 000 Euros a while ago in France. There are also a few DR1 replicas currently going between $10-20 000.

I'll tell you what - if you want something from the top list or similar I'll find it for you for a 2% finders fee and that will pay for my WW1 Replica.

Airmail109
09-01-2008, 01:44 PM
Ive seen Yak 3's going for 300 000 dollars.

BOA_Allmenroder
09-01-2008, 02:21 PM
I recall a flyable Bf 109 G6, with original DB engine, going for $1.5m US on Aircraft Shopper Online a couple of years ago.

The story on the engine was that if was found in a packing crate in Italy in some old warehouse. The engine was in the original packing crate, with the packing grease still intact.

zardozid
09-01-2008, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Hey guys, just want to say thanks for giving me this good info. I love the F4U-D Corsair and took my Hyperlobby name after its Japanese nickname (despite the fact the F4U is not easy to fly in IL2) and was always curious as to how much it would cost. ...and now I have a good idea.

Personally, I think if fabulous wealth should come my way in this lifetime, I might do what the actor Michael Dorn has done and buy some private WWII warbirds or previous generation jets. I could not imagine how nice it would be to have my very own F4U parked at the local airport.

Jay

Thats much different...if your curious about what it would cost to but a flyable warbird for fun today, I would look elsewhere for answers. I thought you where theoretically curious about what a ww2 fighter would cost if it where produced...today.

If I had the money for a warbird I don't think I would buy a rebuild antique... I might look at a chinese CJ6a
See them here. (http://www.cj6a.com/) The CJ6a is "affordable", it has warbird like performance and parts readily available... The Nanchange CJ6 is more or less a chinese built YAK 18... read the Wiki History here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanchang_CJ-6)
http://www.vaq136.com/blaine/nanchang-003b.jpg

If I had the money or "talent" I would love to have one of these (http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/). A Supermarine Spitfire... it is an all aluminume Spitfire kit and is beautiful...
http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/Images/Pics/Flying/10007LG.jpg http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/Images/Pics/Builders/WaynevhLG.jpg

Vinnie_Gumbat
09-01-2008, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Since we are on the topic already, which WWII warbird is the most sought after by collectors or the fabulously rich ?

Even if I had ~1 to 4 million dollars just laying around, which type of Warbird would be the hardest for me to attain ? And, just as you can find restored Corsairs and P-51s in North America and Europe, can you find restored Lavochkins in Russia or Eastern Europe ?

Jay

No.

Vinnie

Wildnoob
09-01-2008, 05:20 PM
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b5n/5353.html

if I was rich, I would try buy the remains of this B5N and restore it to a fly condition aircraft. I would want it original, with the original engine of course.

I keep imagining, fly in a B5N with some friends, put non explosive bombs to make target pratic with the bombsigth would be orgasmatic. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

sakai2005
09-01-2008, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Just curious as to how much something like a F4U-D Corsair would cost at its production time in say 1944 (in US dollars) and how much would a fully functioning Corsair cost for a collector in today's world. I know a F/A-18 costs something like $45 million, but have little way of comparing that to a Corsair's cost.


look here http://archive.seacoastonline.com/2003news/11252003/maine/62128.htm

Any of you WWII air buffs help out ?

Jay

sakai2005
09-01-2008, 05:25 PM
if the above link does not work heres a quote.

Even a muck-covered hulk is worth upward of $800,000 because the airplane can be restored as an original Corsair.

zardozid
09-01-2008, 07:57 PM
I have often fantasized about getting an aeroplane and flying around the sky...

If you like WW1 fighters their is this (http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/) company. I don't really have the confidence in my building ability to assemble my own flying machine...but they have some lovely kits.
http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/images2/N28-flyby.jpg http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/Images2/pup_photos/P3170008_sm.jpg
http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/images2/taube3.jpg http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/airdrome/images/dvii/d7-infopage.jpg
http://www.ultralightnews.ca/sun-n-fun04/images/fokker.jpg
For better or worse this is the company that supplied the aeroplanes for "Flyboys".

I think these Rotec engines are beautiful...
http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/images2/R2800_page.jpg

Now I don't have enough confidence to build my aeroplane from a factory made kit... so I deffinetly do not have the "balls" to build one from scratch, but you should still check out what these guys are going. Check out "War Birds" (http://warbuddies.homestead.com/).
http://warreplica.homestead.com/files/WAR_FW_190_prototype.jpg
http://warreplica.homestead.com/files/WAR_P-47D_f-pyqq_at_RSA_Rally_1997_Mirecourt.jpg

WTE_Galway
09-01-2008, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by zardozid:
I have often fantasized about getting an aeroplane and flying around the sky...

If you like WW1 fighters their is this (http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/) company.

Interesting it seems like even the full size triplane would meet Australian ultralight requirements ... though presumably getting a new type certified would be a nightmare.

Diabetes means I can no longer fly GA but at least for the time being ultralight licences only require you meet a car medical standard.

STENKA_69.GIAP
09-02-2008, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Interesting it seems like even the full size triplane would meet Australian ultralight requirements ... though presumably getting a new type certified would be a nightmare.

Diabetes means I can no longer fly GA but at least for the time being ultralight licences only require you meet a car medical standard.

Most of the 7/8 or full size replicas use some modern materials which means they drop into many countries Ultralight regulations.

You should check out ultralight regulations in detail - do not assume they are difficult.

Here in France you can build your own 2 seater with all up weight of 450 Kg and 100 Hp motor. That will give a performance very similar to a WW1 plane - in many ways superior.

You then write to the CAA saying "I certify this plane is airworthy" and they give you a certificate.

It actualy is more hassle to get the radio installation approved.

Medicals and insurance are optional but reccomended.

You do however need a licence but no minimum hours per year.

luftluuver
09-02-2008, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by zardozid:
I have often fantasized about getting an aeroplane and flying around the sky...

If you like WW1 fighters their is this company. I don't really have the confidence in my building ability to assemble my own flying machine...but they have some lovely kits.

There is also, http://www.replicraft.us.fm/

WTE_Galway
09-17-2008, 09:28 PM
By the way if you SERIOUSLY want to buy a warbird that features in the game there are a couple of restored rides for sale right now at Alpine Fighters in New Zealand they will even handle the type conversion for you.

They currently have two I16's and an I153 available.

1 x I-16 (#9) and 2 x I-153 (#10 and #75).

"Prices reduced and now by negotiation."

http://www.alpinefighter.co.nz/pages/sales.html