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Slechtvalk
07-15-2005, 06:34 AM
Do a quick mission take a p39 or bf109 fly level and use full rudder and no other movements for at least 30 seconds.

Normally the plane should stay pretty horizontal but slowly moving to the right or left right? while the plane again should stay pretty much horizontal.

But with the latest patch it will make an almost complete roll like if you just move your stick to the right or left while the plane should stay pretty level like it always did?

Or is there something wrong with my il-2 version and should I try a reinstall?

Tully__
07-15-2005, 06:42 AM
I'm not a real pilot, but IIRC full rudder should put you in a flat turn that slowly develops into a spin then a flat spin in most aircraft.

RxMan
07-15-2005, 06:46 AM
With RC planes (with no alieron controls), the rudder can be used alone for a banked turn, and if you over control you will go into a dangerous roll, I KNOW from experience, ruined my one and only RC plane. Cause : as you turn the nose of the plane in one direction it hides that wing from the airflow and angles it backward causing a lost of lift it will drop.

Slechtvalk
07-15-2005, 06:50 AM
Ok in my case it goes in a full (controlled) spin right away making an almost complete roll in about 20 seconds and the nose from my aircraft in this case the p39 will point to the ground will result in a crash in no time.

Can't be right!???

Slechtvalk
07-15-2005, 07:02 AM
I only want to know if others get the same result as me so I know I don't need a reinstall or that I have maybe got a bad flue or something.

Otherwise there is something serious wrong with the latest patch.

Zyzbot
07-15-2005, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Slechtvalk:
Do a quick mission take a p39 or bf109 fly level and use full rudder and no other movements for at least 30 seconds.

Normally the plane should stay pretty horizontal but slowly moving to the right or left right? while the plane again should stay pretty much horizontal.

But with the latest patch it will make an almost complete roll like if you just move your stick to the right or left while the plane should stay pretty level like it always did?

Or is there something wrong with my il-2 version and should I try a reinstall?



I have read about some planes doing a "rudder roll". It makes some sense. With full rudder one wing is generating more lift than the other so you would expect it to roll at least a bit.

ColoradoBBQ
07-15-2005, 07:16 AM
That is the correct behavior for full rudder use, Slechtvalk. If you use left rudder, the left wing gets less airflow and loses some lift which rolls the plane.

Tully__
07-15-2005, 07:20 AM
I'm at work and can't test, but it sounds about right Slechtvalk. The P-39 is reputed to respond more suddenly to behaviour that provokes roll/spin responses.

Slechtvalk
07-15-2005, 07:27 AM
Doesn't depends which plane btw as far as I can tell.
Also when I use lets say 50% rudder it does the same thing.

It's just odd that with previous patches the planes would stay pretty much horizontal while giving rudder movements but it will now result in rolls and the nose pointing to mother earth.

How could they be so wrong with the previous patched I wonder? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Hoarmurath
07-15-2005, 07:36 AM
I think you should reinstall previous patches and try again, because i'm absolutely sure that the planes were already behaving like that in 3.04

Cajun76
07-15-2005, 07:36 AM
Draw an invisible line through the center of mass of the plane, from nose to tail. Is the rudder directly bisect that line, or does it stick up more than down?

So if you have a force acting off center of that line, would it not produce a roll effect as well? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Slechtvalk
07-15-2005, 07:43 AM
Ok I guess this is normal then...
Just seemed odd in my book. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

And can you explain this:

First p47. As you know it got engine torque making your aircraft rolling left. Turn engine OFF and your p47 still will still go left while you have it neutral trimmed out.

Or bf109 this 1 got engine torgue making your aircraft rolling right .Turn engine OFF and your bf109 still makes nice engine torgue rolls resulting in rolls going clockwiseŒ

But maybe I should try a reinstall aswell.
I patched it over a beta.

x6BL_Brando
07-15-2005, 08:13 AM
It sounds like a matter of 'feel' for the machine you're flying. Just using one axis is unnatural and proves very little. You would actually be correcting constantly on all the axes. A little more or less throttle - a touch of opposite aileron to correct a dipping wing - and the application of trim via the tabs to ease the necessity for keeping a constant pressure on the controls.

Flying virtually is deceiving to the senses. We can use pedals and force feedback and TrackIR, but none of that is going to impart the feeling of having two tonnes of aircraft strapped to our rear ends, no? We can't & don't feel the force of gravity is my point, nor do we feel the gut-wrenching effect of torque. If we did then we would really be doing the constant corrections I mentioned earlier, based on what we could feel. (And the instrument panel of course)

The nearest land-based comparison I can think of is riding a boxer-engined motorbike with a shaft-drive. It's a while since I rode a solo (I ride a sidecar outfit) but you could feel the effect of an inline engine as you applied the sauce. The torque, IIRC, would rotate the bike to the right (any BMW rider like to correct me?) Whatever, this push could be 'trimmed out' by moving one's body slightly - and it could be used to advantage when entering a corner. A bit like the Camel of WW1, which was more easily turned with the torque through 270 degrees, than against it through 90.

I think it's too simplistic to base your conclusion s on "full left rudder". If you're not using constant corrections then some sh1t is gonna happen, and it doesn't much matter what it is. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Slechtvalk
07-15-2005, 08:24 AM
Yes I have no case.

But 1 thing I know, something is seriously wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. It just doesn't feel natural in so many ways.

Now I did have a few flight lessons and when giving (full) rudder it would nicely stay horizontal for the MOST part while my plane would go nicely to the left or right and if I want to try this with this game I must move my stick full right or left to keep my plane horizontal! and my plane hardly is going right or left!

But I gonna do a reinstall. I hope that's it.

Cajun76
07-15-2005, 08:30 AM
I posted some links in the TB-3 and Gravity thread, you might want to check them out Slechtvalk. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Slechtvalk
07-15-2005, 08:49 AM
Yes thanks, nice story about that guy which came in a bad spin. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thanks.

Still I stand with my point that there is still something FISHY! Full throttle at once should give enormous torgue but this torgue is just more annoying then feeling realistic.


But I have no case http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I gonna save money for my own warplane and then I get back here.


Also he made an interesting note: At high RPM, this relation has it€s strongest effect of rolling the airplane to the left.

Hmm not sure if this is the case, going to test it.

Back testing in buffalo. With full RPM it will roll the airplane to the left. With 50% throttle it will roll to the right!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif Really I am so confused... I am going to take a nap.

Tallyho1961
07-15-2005, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Slechtvalk:
Ok I guess this is normal then...
Just seemed odd in my book. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

And can you explain this:

First p47. As you know it got engine torque making your aircraft rolling left. Turn engine OFF and your p47 still will still go left while you have it neutral trimmed out.

Or bf109 this 1 got engine torgue making your aircraft rolling right .Turn engine OFF and your bf109 still makes nice engine torgue rolls resulting in rolls going clockwiseŒ

But maybe I should try a reinstall aswell.
I patched it over a beta.

Here's a thought:
Verify the direction of prop rotation for the a/c you are concerned about. AFAIK, most rotate clockwise when seen from inside the pit, but I know, for instance, that the IL2 engine rotates its prop counterclockwise when seen from inside, which I assume would produce adverse yaw in the opposite direction to a clockwise rotating prop.

Basically, you need to hold opposite ruddder against whatever adverse yaw your a/c is generating - it's not absolute.

Slechtvalk
07-15-2005, 09:36 AM
Yes never said it was. But there shouldn't be torgue effects with the engine turned off?
Which are still present. Because they should both roll right or both roll left with the engine turned off or not roll at all when you got it trimmed out neutral?

And I know the p47 rolls left and the bf109 rolls right that's why I picked these 2 aircraft to make my point. Even when they got opposite moving props they still should behave the same when they both got their engines turned off me thinks.

Tallyho1961
07-15-2005, 09:52 AM
My bad; I seem to have misunderstood your point and it's evident your very familiar with the real life phenomena under discussion. I'll try to check this myself tonight before adding any further comment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NonWonderDog
07-15-2005, 12:31 PM
High power warbirds are trimmed against torque; they naturally roll with the prop direction with the engine off. It's not just trim tabs, either -- some of these planes have cambered v-stabs, others have angled v-stabs, still others have assymetric wings. If you're not making enough power to counter this, the plane will not fly straight with neutral aileron and rudder trim.


There is a problem with engine-off torque once your engine stops windmilling, however. In planes with a clockwise prop, they will roll to the left at full power and roll to the right at low power. This is correct. They will also, however, roll very strongly to the *left* with no power and a stopped engine. This is incorrect. Very incorrect.


As to the rudder, it SHOULD roll the plane. The fact that it doesn't in many older sims is a very significant shortcoming. As a technical explanation, yawing the plane causes the outside wing to speed up and the inside wing to slow down, just like a rank in a parade going around a corner. Since lift is dependant on the square of speed, the outside wing will create more lift than the inside wing. This causes the plane to roll into the turn. You and I don't notice this flying Cessnas because we aren't daft enough to try to turn using nothing but the rudder, but the effect is there in every plane. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AerialTarget
07-15-2005, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
none of that is going to impart the feeling of having two tonnes of aircraft strapped to our rear ends

Two? I don't know what category your kite falls into, but my ship weighs about nine!

Slechtvalk
07-15-2005, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
High power warbirds are trimmed against torque; they naturally roll with the prop direction with the engine off. It's not just trim tabs, either -- some of these planes have cambered v-stabs, others have angled v-stabs, still others have assymetric wings. If you're not making enough power to counter this, the plane will not fly straight with neutral aileron and rudder trim.


There is a problem with engine-off torque once your engine stops windmilling, however. In planes with a clockwise prop, they will roll to the left at full power and roll to the right at low power. This is correct. They will also, however, roll very strongly to the *left* with no power and a stopped engine. This is incorrect. Very incorrect.


As to the rudder, it SHOULD roll the plane. The fact that it doesn't in many older sims is a very significant shortcoming. As a technical explanation, yawing the plane causes the outside wing to speed up and the inside wing to slow down, just like a rank in a parade going around a corner. Since lift is dependant on the square of speed, the outside wing will create more lift than the inside wing. This causes the plane to roll into the turn. You and I don't notice this flying Cessnas because we aren't daft enough to try to turn using nothing but the rudder, but the effect is there in every plane. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

RxMan
07-15-2005, 02:40 PM
If you havn't already, check your yaw sliders in the control input section of the game, maybe they got reset to 100% which would feel different than before.

Slechtvalk
07-16-2005, 05:07 AM
Well something was really wrong, I removed the il-2 config and I can fly 10 times better now!

You don't hear me complaining anymore (I hope).
Sorry.