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View Full Version : Dogfight situation, dilemma



general_kalle
10-29-2007, 01:51 PM
you are flying a F6F Hellcat level, you have one wingman

4 enemy Zeros are diving on you from six high, you are too low to be able to effektivly dive away, if you do so they will catch you at sea level

buzzsaw1939
10-29-2007, 01:57 PM
Dive to the right, doing a high g turn all the way to the water, then slam in max power to leave them!

AFJ_rsm
10-29-2007, 01:57 PM
I'd TK my wingman, bail, then accuse the zeros of using the sound mod and cheating.

okb001
10-29-2007, 02:03 PM
Wet my pants then bail out ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

general_kalle
10-29-2007, 02:13 PM
christ you guys just cant be serius can you?

if you arent serius please dont post

Skunk_438RCAF
10-29-2007, 02:19 PM
For the record, a "downwards Immelmann" is actually called a Split-S.

BBB_Hyperion
10-29-2007, 02:21 PM
Spread 30 degrees 1 low yoyos (kind of rollaway)right and rolls in low other left cutting in your path so that you cross paths when there is luck and the coordination fails for the a6m you maybe get 2 of them before your speed drops too low to allow them faster roll maneuvers.

buzzsaw1939
10-29-2007, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Skunk_438RCAF:
For the record, a "downwards Immelmann" is actually called a Split-S.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

slipBall
10-29-2007, 02:34 PM
Oh sh/t...MOMMY MOMMY

JG14_Josf
10-29-2007, 02:41 PM
The situation suggests a need to force an overshoot for both defenders.

buzzsaw1939
10-29-2007, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
christ you guys just cant be serius can you?

if you arent serius please dont post

General... I'm dead serious!

The Zero had trouble with a hard right turn, if your near the water, they have to back off, or over shoot, you run, then come back with advantage!

K_Freddie
10-29-2007, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
christ you guys just cant be serius can you?
if you arent serius please dont post

I hope you realise what you're asking...
you're in this car, it has no engine, there's a big truck bearing down on you, how are you going to drive away ?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Stiletto-
10-29-2007, 03:06 PM
I'm going to agree with Buzzsaws idea, you need to firewall it and use any spare altitude and convert it into speed and do a hard 180 turn and just start running, as the Zero won't be able to turn with you at this high speed and by the time they are on your 6, you will be at a high velocity and the zeros will most likely be out of range with not enough speed to catch you.

Rammjaeger
10-29-2007, 03:16 PM
Probably the best thing to do is to wait until they get really close and then do a violent upward right turn before they start shooting (if I'm not mistaken, the Zero turned better to the left than to the right). You just have to assume they are not too good at deflection shooting and will not have much of an opportunity to score many hits. Two 7.7 mm guns cannot do too much damage to a Hellcat anyway (I assume the enemy pilots won't try extreme deflection shooting with the wing cannons).

After you've let them overshoot and dive below you, they will obviously start climbing stay above and behind them and do a quick yo-yo and target their leader before the Zeros get to your altitude.

If that doesn't work, I guess the best idea is to start diving as fast as possible, then level out and start climbing before the aircraft reaches break-up speed, hoping the Zeros will be left behind. If they do, or remain at higher altitude, do a quick Immelmann and try head-on attacks.

MEGILE
10-29-2007, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by AFJ_rsm:
I'd TK my wingman, bail, then accuse the zeros of using the sound mod and cheating.

win.

gdfo
10-29-2007, 03:35 PM
Both Cats dive slightly to build speed.

As the IJN dive, pull up to the right, one keeps right the other cat goes left.

Then both cats look for each others six. See who is following. Yo yo or split S as needed.

JG51_Rudel
10-29-2007, 03:37 PM
If they are far away then turn in a head on and let em have it. The Zero won't expect that.

Sillius_Sodus
10-29-2007, 03:44 PM
Are we online or offline?

Either way, since you are low low to dive away, I would use what altitude you have to gain a bit more energy and then, and this is the hard part, just before they get into effective shooting range, each Hellcat does a hard break in opposite directions then rolls back into a Thatch weave.

Offline the Zekes won't have a problem with stiff controls at higher speeds and are crack shots at ninety degree deflection angles so you'll also have to be lucky.

Good hunting,
Sillius_Sodus

VW-IceFire
10-29-2007, 03:47 PM
Break turn followed by upwards immelman for the most altitude as the Zeros are recovering followed by firewalling the throttle and getting the heck out of their. The key is to put the Zeros off angle for along enough to be able to head off in a straight line as quickly. You want to force the Zeros to turn the most and loose the most energy while you preserve and even build energy in the straightline.

buzzsaw1939
10-29-2007, 05:07 PM
Hey Sillius....good point, off line or on!

Off line AI ace is pretty hard to beat, for the reasons you mention, however, if I use the tactic I said above, he will always break off to keep from hitting the water, if I pull a hard turn short of black out, I can out turn him, and get on six, then the challange is to get him to hold still, that wiggle worm! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I had one just the other night, I hit him 7 times, pieces flying, then ran out of ammo, chased him all the way back to base, I like to think he needed toilet paper when he landed! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Loco-S
10-29-2007, 09:51 PM
turn immediately into his flight path and face them frontally, start shooting, you will be under their noses and they will have their undersides exposed.

general_kalle
10-30-2007, 05:24 AM
not online not offline,
more like Real life
but i assume that would be the same as online

i saw this thing in a History Channel episode of Dogfights: the one called Hellcats.

cant remember the pilot but he went into Tach weave and then the zeros came down on their level and they broke off and chased them.

i would go for a Tach weave or a High speed slow turn

Manos1
10-30-2007, 05:35 AM
"Thatch wave"

named after the US pilot who invented it....

TgD Thunderbolt56
10-30-2007, 06:22 AM
That would be the Thach weave. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif named after John Thach and developed by John Thach and Jimmie Flatley

http://www.history.com/media.do?action=clip&id=dogfights_thachweave_broadband

LEBillfish
10-30-2007, 08:53 AM
In that situaion, I'd be in the Zero....So knowing what most would do, and what I'd do, here is what I'd suggest...

First off, DON'T split S as this is what Japanese aircraft excel at.....Slam your throttle and nose down, point here is to gain speed with whatever altitude you have (hence gaining E), yet more so to force them to gain more speed as come a point, their controls stiffen..........Some may freeze and dive in, or at the least have to continue forward gently pulling up yet forcing them to bypass.

Next, roll hard CCW 270 degrees, and pull back hard once there to reverse your direction yet no more then say 135 degrees if even that as you don't want to blow E.......The zeros most likely left will try and match your roll blowing E, and then the hard reverse will seal the deal.....This puts even more distance between you and leaves them in a low energy state.

Extend...Then extend with a shallow climb, and repeat careful of where those that broke off are now at.

What you have to be careful of is the smart one who lets you go through all your gyrations keeping alt for speed and his E up pouncing when you slow.....Also the one who refuses to follow, pulling up to burn e to then snap his tail round and perform a "true" immelman (shallow hammer head)....

Your whole goal is to force them into extremes of E states. Too much loss of control, too little loss of speed and slow to recoup.....The entire time yourself getting further and further out of range till you can turn back and dictate the fight on your terms or perhaps wiser still 4 vs. 1....SImply RTB to drag so others can bag.

-HH-Quazi
10-30-2007, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Loco-S:
turn immediately into his flight path and face them frontally, start shooting, you will be under their noses and they will have their undersides exposed. Yep. This m8 has it right. Turn & climb directly into their flight path. Their speed will force them to overshoot quickly leaving you & your wingman with an altitude advantage. Any other manuvor would put them on your six with more energy\speed.

BlitzPig_DDT
10-30-2007, 09:18 AM
Hmm... I've not seen A6M controls stiffen up to any usable degree, no matter how fast.

And the 'Cat has been castrated by Oleg and doesn't have the fanbois that the UFO-rsair does to help it.

In this scenario, it's pretty much toast and helpless.

Pray they aren't high and/or fast enough to catch you and run for home and let the fleet AAA take them out. It's all ya got.

LEBillfish
10-30-2007, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Hmm... I've not seen A6M controls stiffen up to any usable degree, no matter how fast..

Then you need to fly it more....I'm no ace yet not a bad virtual pilot by any means, and the Wildcat/Hellcat can out turn it.....Not just roll yet a banking turn......Add any amount of speed to that and it simply progressively worsens.

WWSensei
10-30-2007, 11:40 AM
Unless you and your wingman have practiced the Thatch Weave (technically called a Beam Defense Maneuver) you aren't likely to do it successfully and end up getting killed. 4 on 2? Turn head on and engage since you stipulate you are too low to dive away. Best defense against a superior turning opponent is a Guns Defense Maneuver and the only real one open to you at this point is to force the head-on.

You could try and force an overshoot but the Zero is decent at slow flight and you are likely to get reamed in the attempt. I'd save that one for the last gasp should they hold your 6.

Oh yeah, and call for reinforcements.

BlitzPig_DDT
10-30-2007, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Hmm... I've not seen A6M controls stiffen up to any usable degree, no matter how fast..

Then you need to fly it more....I'm no ace yet not a bad virtual pilot by any means, and the Wildcat/Hellcat can out turn it.....Not just roll yet a banking turn......Add any amount of speed to that and it simply progressively worsens. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It may well be people gaming the game too. I can't say for sure, but anytime I'm at speeds high enough where El (and others) assures me the A6M controls lock up, they stay right with me.

But there is also the modeling issue on this side as well. Fanbois never appreciate the workhorses, only the glory hounds on cleanup detail (F4U/P-51). But I digress....

Brain32
10-30-2007, 12:19 PM
you are flying a F6F Hellcat level, you have one wingman

4 enemy Zeros are diving on you from six high, you are too low to be able to effektivly dive away, if you do so they will catch you at sea level
Need more details to give definite answer but I was in similar situation once, on ZvsW Pear Harbour scenario, I was in P40 at about 1500m and two A6M2's were diving on me from about 2000-2500m, I basically waited for them to close in shallow diving to make sure they go as fast as possible when they close in and for me to accelerate to greater speed, lnowing how Zero's stiffen up at speed and when I estimated they are close enough, I made Split-S as fast a possible and left them in the dust heading for my lines. This works quite well agaisnt Zero's, however I don't know how would it work against other Japanese planes.

Sharpe26
10-30-2007, 12:28 PM
since you're at a disadvantage, break into them at max power, then use the altitude gained in said maneuver to create the speed to escape.

major_setback
10-30-2007, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
christ you guys just cant be serius can you?

if you arent serius please dont post
I'm not serious. Does that mean I can't post????
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

K_Freddie
10-30-2007, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Then you need to fly it more....I'm no ace yet not a bad virtual pilot by any means, and the Wildcat/Hellcat can out turn it.....Not just roll yet a banking turn......Add any amount of speed to that and it simply progressively worsens.
I've had the controls get stiff on me but nothing that's uncontrollable. In either case whether I'm in a Zero or a F4, the F4 is dead meat in this situation.
The described situation is a one way affair.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

LEBillfish
10-30-2007, 03:20 PM
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......Zero/FW/P47/Ki-27....If I'm diving in and my prey suddenly makes a hard turn I'm NOT going to head on with him....In any case I'm going to pull out and slightly up and prepare to split S or whatever is needed to get on his 6.

He's low and just blew his E....Better still if he tries to climb into me as I'll bypass inverted, and split S on his six him now extra slow and losing control authority...Heck Most times in this situation, it's almost better to pull up slightly, let them try and get an angle on you.......Then hammer the falling leaf after they stall.

We're not talking fast E/speed recouping jets here...So if I'm high and they reverse "hard" then climb...They've just made their situation 10x worse.

buzzsaw1939
10-30-2007, 04:17 PM
Lets see...... your at low altitude, you have 4 zeros diveing on your six,... your going to turn in to them? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif If I was in one of those Zeros, I would love it!

Your commander will be writing letters to your familys! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Daiichidoku
10-30-2007, 04:22 PM
do not touch a single control, allow your ship to travel whatever way it wants to

play like your pilot is dead

no-one EVER manages to hit you when your pilot is dead http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Daiichidoku
10-30-2007, 04:25 PM
BTW, this poll is invalid without an "i is Y0RGO" option

Jaws2002
10-30-2007, 06:26 PM
Shallow dive to about the minimum altitude you can pulla split-S, then when the zekes are close split-S and extend the other way.
First thing you want is not to get blown to shreds right there in the first bounce. Zeros are not 190'a but you have eight canons and eight mg's behind you. If you get hit in the first pass what you plan to do after that is irelevant. And from six high they have a good chance to hit you.
Then you want to gain some separation and bring the fight at as high speed you can.
If you are at or close to cruise speed in the initial fase of the attack the Zekes are faster and won't be able to pull the split-S from that altitude.
By the time they turn back around you could have enough separation to get away before they get in shooting range.
If you go up in an immelman you are going to be slow at the top and one of the four of them will be able get a burst in, or to follow you in lag pursuit and be right back on your six when you finished your maneuver.

Wepps
10-30-2007, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
christ you guys just cant be serius can you?

if you arent serius please dont post

Diving to sea level with the 180 turn is a good option. It breaks up their attack.

Secondly, there is no way for them to get close and pull out of their dives, so they have to try to gun you down from longer range.

Stay at sea level and play scissors for a while until they get bored, or somebody presents an opportunity. They will lose their energy advantage down there. And since you have none...

buzzsaw1939
10-30-2007, 07:50 PM
I keep hearing this scissors thing, Are you guys aware that a scissor dissipates energy? not to mention the skill it takes to not run into your wing man while watching your six, the key is to out distance them, then re engage. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Loco-S
10-30-2007, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......

well, then this Israeli Pilot with 7 mig 21's in his bag ( jet ace) I work with is wrong...we have been chatting about some techniques he used against Egyptian jets.....

LEBillfish
10-30-2007, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by Loco-S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......

well, then this Israeli Pilot with 7 mig 21's in his bag ( jet ace) I work with is wrong...we have been chatting about some techniques he used against Egyptian jets..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......We're not talking fast E/speed recouping jets here...

You were saying?....Tell us again about the single Israeli 1940's prop plane vs. the 7 1940's Egyptian prop planes............
Were you not paying attention or simply picking out pieces of a post to dispute?

Ratsack
10-31-2007, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
In that situaion, I'd be in the Zero....So knowing what most would do, and what I'd do, here is what I'd suggest...

First off, DON'T split S as this is what Japanese aircraft excel at.....Slam your throttle and nose down, point here is to gain speed with whatever altitude you have (hence gaining E), yet more so to force them to gain more speed as come a point, their controls stiffen..........Some may freeze and dive in, or at the least have to continue forward gently pulling up yet forcing them to bypass.

Next, roll hard CCW 270 degrees, and pull back hard once there to reverse your direction yet no more then say 135 degrees if even that as you don't want to blow E.......The zeros most likely left will try and match your roll blowing E, and then the hard reverse will seal the deal.....This puts even more distance between you and leaves them in a low energy state.

Extend...Then extend with a shallow climb, and repeat careful of where those that broke off are now at.

What you have to be careful of is the smart one who lets you go through all your gyrations keeping alt for speed and his E up pouncing when you slow.....Also the one who refuses to follow, pulling up to burn e to then snap his tail round and perform a "true" immelman (shallow hammer head)....

Your whole goal is to force them into extremes of E states. Too much loss of control, too little loss of speed and slow to recoup.....The entire time yourself getting further and further out of range till you can turn back and dictate the fight on your terms or perhaps wiser still 4 vs. 1....SImply RTB to drag so others can bag.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Ratsack

Zoom2136
10-31-2007, 02:03 PM
Take a combat spread and start a shallow dive to increase speed....

When they get closer (if they do catch up) zoom climb with a 45 degree angle between each Hellcat... then its back to a shallow dive and getting out of dodge...

In the event they all chased after one of the Hellcats... split S and drag them under your wingman... he just has to B&Z...

rafaellorena
10-31-2007, 02:43 PM
some times run isnt bad thing... dive and get out there, better stay alive to another flight .. die for a medal isnt so good... and ... if the dog is inevitable, make a turn and h2h... the sea will make a little "camuflage" try to hit the leader... and ive again in the wingmans..

Viper2005_
10-31-2007, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
you are flying a F6F Hellcat level, you have one wingman

4 enemy Zeros are diving on you from six high, you are too low to be able to effektivly dive away, if you do so they will catch you at sea level

If you're bad enough to have placed yourself in that situation then you're almost certainly not good enough to get yourself out of it...

Therefore I suggest Ctrl-E.

Wepps
10-31-2007, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
I keep hearing this scissors thing, Are you guys aware that a scissor dissipates energy? not to mention the skill it takes to not run into your wing man while watching your six, the key is to out distance them, then re engage. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

In the situation given, I'm already at the complete energy disadvantage.

Bleeding energy MORE is the only solution. Make them come to sea level to get you and keep on weaving.

Now, I'm no expert, I never claimed to be lol. I'm only saying what *I* would do, and why.

Urufu_Shinjiro
10-31-2007, 03:59 PM
Wait for the last second and do a very tight (with a lot of lateral motion) barrel roll, if they are diving fast enough they will zoom right by and viola!

leitmotiv
10-31-2007, 04:51 PM
Slam the throttle forward and skid to the right. The Zero can't maneuver well at high speed. The turn will force them to lose position. Hope the turn throws them off their aim, and that you can outrun them.

buzzsaw1939
10-31-2007, 04:52 PM
Viper... You don't strike me as the give up typ!

you know that even the best of them would screw up, aside from being aggressive, I like practiceing defensive flying, it keeps you sharp. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
10-31-2007, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Hmm... I've not seen A6M controls stiffen up to any usable degree, no matter how fast..

Then you need to fly it more....I'm no ace yet not a bad virtual pilot by any means, and the Wildcat/Hellcat can out turn it.....Not just roll yet a banking turn......Add any amount of speed to that and it simply progressively worsens. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It may well be people gaming the game too. I can't say for sure, but anytime I'm at speeds high enough where El (and others) assures me the A6M controls lock up, they stay right with me.

But there is also the modeling issue on this side as well. Fanbois never appreciate the workhorses, only the glory hounds on cleanup detail (F4U/P-51). But I digress.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You might be expecting the controls to be stiffer than they are. A good Zero pilot will probably combine roll with heavy rudder to try and force the Zero to get rolling. The roll is terrible at high speed but it never completely cuts out. A Hellcat pilot just has to time it right and roll at the right moment where a Zero can't follow or can't follow a series of rolls. Its not a walk in the park...a Zero can compensate but I suspect that the real Zero pilots were probably worried about stressing the airframe and warping it doing these compensating maneuvers.

LEBillfish
10-31-2007, 08:20 PM
Actually IceFire i'm speaking of in sim elevator authority.....The roll of most planes here, not all like the FW seems rather good yet most doesn't even compare to what you'll see in even modern (so fps should be on par) films....More so, the crispness of A6M and Ki-43 controls does not seem to match (no numbers so speculative and annecdotal) reports of allied pilots encountering them...Stated as:

"They (Japanese Pilots) seemed to really know what they were doing, as all encountered would instantly roll out, to have the wings instantly flatten (stable) and begin firing.."

Here we can't control the planes as precisely, the large control surfaces of those two should grant such authority.....The downside is at higher speeds the difficulty/inability to move them.....and though it was worse in previous FMs, still exists to a minor degree in this.

Loco-S
10-31-2007, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Loco-S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......

well, then this Israeli Pilot with 7 mig 21's in his bag ( jet ace) I work with is wrong...we have been chatting about some techniques he used against Egyptian jets..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......We're not talking fast E/speed recouping jets here...

You were saying?....Tell us again about the single Israeli 1940's prop plane vs. the 7 1940's Egyptian prop planes............
Were you not paying attention or simply picking out pieces of a post to dispute? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Youll be surprised how responsive are prop planes to power/control input, faster than jets, jets take a couple to several seconds to "spool up" and go, while on a prop job, you just shove the throttle and the response is instant.

BTW, I work with test pilots on a test program for the Adam 700 jet, we have several guys here like the following: ex fighter pilot school instructor/U2 pilot, ex A7/F14/F18 pilot, a10/F16 pilot, Mirage3/5/ F4/F16 pilot, all of them trained on the US test pilot school, I ask way too many questions to this guys, and sometimes they take time to answer.

dont get mad if I can make a comment based on what I have been answered to by this guys.

buzzsaw1939
10-31-2007, 09:37 PM
mmmmmm.... Did any of them ever ask you to get a bucket of prop wash?.... I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Loco-S
10-31-2007, 09:39 PM
get me ten feet of flight line, and dont forget to sweep the flight path.

Snodrvr
10-31-2007, 09:44 PM
I think I'd choose other, I'd get on my radio and call for help. Then depending on whether or not any friendly planes were in the area, run in the direction of home.

In the situation you've outlined I don't really see any chance of winning in a straight fight unless they make some critical mistakes, so I think your best bet would be to get as close to friendly waters as you can before being shot down/ forced to bail out.

buzzsaw1939
10-31-2007, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Loco-S:
get me ten feet of flight line, and dont forget to sweep the flight path.

Ok, you got me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

R_Target
10-31-2007, 11:44 PM
Haul @ss and pray you don't get hit. Just a couple MG rounds knocks 20 knots off the Hellcat's speed, so they'll catch you.

buzzsaw1939
11-01-2007, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by Wepps:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
I keep hearing this scissors thing, Are you guys aware that a scissor dissipates energy? not to mention the skill it takes to not run into your wing man while watching your six, the key is to out distance them, then re engage. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif[/QUOTE

In the situation given, I'm already at the complete energy disadvantage.

Bleeding energy MORE is the only solution. Make them come to sea level to get you and keep on weaving.

Now, I'm no expert, I never claimed to be lol. I'm only saying what *I* would do, and why.

I can respect that! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I'm just saying that the Hellcat can out turn the Zero at speed and has more power, why waste it?

M_Gunz
11-01-2007, 02:16 AM
Hellcats both low and slow enough they have no hope of outrunning Zeros while avoiding long
distance fire.

What Viper said or the one about the car with no engine about to be hit by the truck.

There's parts of town you could walk through at midnight while openly counting money too.

buzzsaw1939
11-01-2007, 08:21 AM
Low and slow?..I didn't catch that part Gunz. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif



First of all, no fighter pilot would put him self at low altitude in hostile country unless he had a reason, then he would be more aware, and wouldn't be running slow, and without a plan.

(2) good pilots don't waste time kissing thier *** goodby when cought with thier pants down, and live to tell about it, they react to the situation immediately, if you can't think fast in the cockpit, you won't be there very long, and refly is not a tactic when I'm flying.

(3) Are we talking sim? or real life? online or offline? there IS a big difference!

(4) all the books, charts and techical jibberish don't mean squat, if you don't fly the plane, if you understand the forces acting on you, you can feel the air, yes (even in a sim).

Of course I'm comeing from my experience and knowledge, what else? thats all I have! sim flying is fun, but a whole different ball game, I'm still learning!

Wepps
11-01-2007, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wepps:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
I keep hearing this scissors thing, Are you guys aware that a scissor dissipates energy? not to mention the skill it takes to not run into your wing man while watching your six, the key is to out distance them, then re engage. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif[/QUOTE

In the situation given, I'm already at the complete energy disadvantage.

Bleeding energy MORE is the only solution. Make them come to sea level to get you and keep on weaving.

Now, I'm no expert, I never claimed to be lol. I'm only saying what *I* would do, and why.

I can respect that! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I'm just saying that the Hellcat can out turn the Zero at speed and has more power, why waste it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No use out turning them while you have the energy disadvantage. The hope, I'm thinking, is to draw them down to sealevel for a better shot.

Once you accomplish this, keep drawing them into that fight. Once you reduce that advantage, then you can turn and fight. But until then it's avoiding getting your butt shot off by vultures.

I would do this....because I'm not an expert. I don't know how to practically apply extensions in combat situations. I played a long time but I never did pick up on it. So...I improvise.

My first thought would be to do this. I didn't sit for an hour and think about it, or peruse the great websites on energy usage. I just...reacted, in this case by posting. In this manner I provided an example of what I would do on the moment's notice.

Some of these other, better pilots obviously would do something else lol. That's my point.

buzzsaw1939
11-01-2007, 01:39 PM
Right on!.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

M_Gunz
11-01-2007, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Low and slow?..I didn't catch that part Gunz. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif



First of all, no fighter pilot would put him self at low altitude in hostile country unless he had a reason, then he would be more aware, and wouldn't be running slow, and without a plan.

(2) good pilots don't waste time kissing thier *** goodby when cought with thier pants down, and live to tell about it, they react to the situation immediately, if you can't think fast in the cockpit, you won't be there very long, and refly is not a tactic when I'm flying.

(3) Are we talking sim? or real life? online or offline? there IS a big difference!

(4) all the books, charts and techical jibberish don't mean squat, if you don't fly the plane, if you understand the forces acting on you, you can feel the air, yes (even in a sim).

Of course I'm comeing from my experience and knowledge, what else? thats all I have! sim flying is fun, but a whole different ball game, I'm still learning!

I can't imagine Hellcats at high cruise not being able to leave Zeros behind with just a little
bit of weaving.

buzzsaw1939
11-01-2007, 01:49 PM
I can't eather!...I just wouldn't take the chance!... well maybe in the sim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LEBillfish
11-01-2007, 01:56 PM
Well, I still go with my first suggestion.........My advice at this point?..........


Go to HL and try it out or QMB it.....Rotsa ruck! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

buzzsaw1939
11-01-2007, 02:12 PM
I have... many times. Against AI aces!

Actually your first suggestion wasn't bad, it surprised me! you got all that from flying a sim? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Xiolablu3
11-01-2007, 02:18 PM
Split S.

The manouver is MADE for this situation.

You have better high speed control in the dive of the split S, you have a better dive speed in the F6F, you have a slightly better top speed.



Howeever, if you have allowed yourself to be caught low and slow and alone in ANY plane by 4 enemies, then you really need to take a look at your flying tactics.

buzzsaw1939
11-01-2007, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Split S.

The manouver is MADE for this situation.

You have better high speed control in the dive, you have a better dive speed in the F6F, you have a slightly better top speed.

As long as you see the bandits in time, you should be able to avoid them and be running for home/friendlies quite easily if you are in a Hellcat vs Zeros.

Your absolutly right, however he didn't specify what the altitude was,or the speed, I modified it to a diveing turn to the right, down to the water, with thier excess speed, they will have to break off!

WWSensei
11-01-2007, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......Zero/FW/P47/Ki-27....

Nothing to do with jets. It's basic air combat doctrine. In a negative energy merge with a superior turning opponent the proper and highest probability of survival is a guns defense maneuver. It's actually easier in WW2 driven aircraft because you face a relatively small WEZ versus your more modern aircraft.

If the opponent is higher and behind your 3-9 line you are not going to extend fast enough to avoid death--control lock up or not. By turning into the opponent you do two things--bring your guns to bear on the enemy and close your horizontal separation.

The diving enemy will either engage in the head-to-head which you might win if you hit them versus if you show your 6 where you will almost certainly die. You also present a smaller profile to hi as well as lessen the engagement time forcing the opponent to try and nail you with a snap shot versus a long tracking shot. That's why trying to force an overshoot or scissors would most likly end in getting killed.

If the diving opponent pulls up to re-stock and re-asses then plan the next attack. In short, the defensive fighter has now caused the superior opponent to react to them versus the other way around. Against less experienced pilots once you can begin to get inside their decision cycle you begin to sway the advantage needle off of being pegged in their favor toward you. If I were the low energy fighter and having just forced you to re-stock on alt I'd also turn to try and stay right underneath you. The shortened horizontal separation is going to make it difficult for you to BnZ. See, at this point our goals are not the same. Your goal would be to kill me, hopefully before the calvary arrives. My goal is just to survive--maybe try and equal the energy states a bit. I'm not in a position to make killing you my goal. My goal is easier to reach than yours is.

This is speculative because this scenario is essentially starting with the constraint of "Step 1: I've royally screwed up and am in a low survival probable profile." 99.999% of the time Step 2 is going to be "Die". It's really an argument about changing the probability of death from 99.999 to 99.998.

buzzsaw1939
11-01-2007, 03:05 PM
Very well put Sensei! I wish I could explain things like that.

It looks like the only difference between your reaction and mine, is I pictured them entering shooting range. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Xiolablu3
11-01-2007, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Split S.

The manouver is MADE for this situation.

You have better high speed control in the dive, you have a better dive speed in the F6F, you have a slightly better top speed.

As long as you see the bandits in time, you should be able to avoid them and be running for home/friendlies quite easily if you are in a Hellcat vs Zeros.

Your absolutly right, however he didn't specify what the altitude was,or the speed, I modified it to a diveing turn to the right, down to the water, with thier excess speed, they will have to break off! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes mate, if you havent got enough height to even split S, then your manoure is the best option http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BAsically, trying to do as close to a split S as possible with the height you have.

They can eithr try to follow and crash thanks to their poor high speed control, or break off for a minute and line up their next attack, giving you vital seconds to get closer to your base/friendlies.

Another point :-

Always try and dive/break in the direction of your base/friendlies. You want to be dragging them closer to your base, no away from it.

Xiolablu3
11-01-2007, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......Zero/FW/P47/Ki-27....

Nothing to do with jets. It's basic air combat doctrine. In a negative energy merge with a superior turning opponent the proper and highest probability of survival is a guns defense maneuver. It's actually easier in WW2 driven aircraft because you face a relatively small WEZ versus your more modern aircraft.

If the opponent is higher and behind your 3-9 line you are not going to extend fast enough to avoid death--control lock up or not. By turning into the opponent you do two things--bring your guns to bear on the enemy and close your horizontal separation.

The diving enemy will either engage in the head-to-head which you might win if you hit them versus if you show your 6 where you will almost certainly die. You also present a smaller profile to hi as well as lessen the engagement time forcing the opponent to try and nail you with a snap shot versus a long tracking shot. That's why trying to force an overshoot or scissors would most likly end in getting killed.

If the diving opponent pulls up to re-stock and re-asses then plan the next attack. In short, the defensive fighter has now caused the superior opponent to react to them versus the other way around. Against less experienced pilots once you can begin to get inside their decision cycle you begin to sway the advantage needle off of being pegged in their favor toward you. If I were the low energy fighter and having just forced you to re-stock on alt I'd also turn to try and stay right underneath you. The shortened horizontal separation is going to make it difficult for you to BnZ. See, at this point our goals are not the same. Your goal would be to kill me, hopefully before the calvary arrives. My goal is just to survive--maybe try and equal the energy states a bit. I'm not in a position to make killing you my goal. My goal is easier to reach than yours is.

This is speculative because this scenario is essentially starting with the constraint of "Step 1: I've royally screwed up and am in a low survival probable profile." 99.999% of the time Step 2 is going to be "Die". It's really an argument about changing the probability of death from 99.999 to 99.998. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The command 'always turn to meet the attack' works great in real life, but not really online where life is cheap.

There are too many people willing to risk a suicidal head on collision, whereas in a real WW2 situation the attacking planes would obviously be much more careful to avoid a head on.

In real life when you 'turn to meet the attack' you are pushing up your odds to nearly 50/50, from what was 20/80 or even worse if you are being attacked from behind.

WIth the this action by the defender, the odds have suddenly gone down for the attacker. Good move where people value their lives (real life), not so great for somewhere where life is cheap (online)

I always try and avoid heaons online unless absolutely necesary as there are far too many suicidal pilots.

LEBillfish
11-01-2007, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......Zero/FW/P47/Ki-27....

Nothing to do with jets. It's basic air combat doctrine. In a negative energy merge with a superior turning opponent the proper and highest probability of survival is a guns defense maneuver................... It's really an argument about changing the probability of death from 99.999 to 99.998. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, well let me pose this.....One of my favorite tactics utilizing Boelckes dicta when attacked from on high is to always meet my attacker..YET..Knowing the lethality of guns and head on IMLTHO a desperate attack, I'll suddenly dive when nearing range to ALWAYS see my attacker try and keep his guns on me.

Naturally with his much higher speed I can nose over and pass under him unscathed "here" probably 95+% of the time.....

That said, When diving on an opponent and he begins to turn to face me, I never correct and try and keep my guns on him.....I follow through with my plan of attack to get on his 6 though now altered easing off my dive and letting him try now very low on E to get and keep his guns on me as I bypass.......Twist of the rudder once past, and I side slip nose reflixively turning toward him yet now often his high 6-8, and speed reduced to a point i'm controlable....While in contrast he has lost control.

If he continues to try and get his guns on me, I can now at my liesure fire upon the fluttering hulk I'm already aimed at....If he gets smart and breaks, I'm still miles ahead as i'm in a dive still, bearing down on his six and he must now recoup even more then before...

Either way I have him.

Tactics only go so far as the planes limitations will allow.........Now you have experience real life, yet here, does it serve you as well?

So I hold to my statement....Try and make the zero overspeed knowing its limitations in the sim......Then force him to blow lots of E, your advantages not lost, yet both at the start and the end you've taken him out of the envelope of his aircrafts peak performance while having stayed "more" in your own.......Then naturally work it till at your advantage...On your terms.

IMLTHO as just an armchair pilot no more......

K2

buzzsaw1939
11-01-2007, 07:44 PM
If you fly like you talk,.. I'll wing with ya anytime!... (OMG), I can't belive I just said that to a girl! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

zardozid
11-02-2007, 05:18 AM
bunt...

general_kalle
11-02-2007, 10:47 AM
wauw, 4 pages. i didnt see that coming
nice.

i got this idea from an episode i saw on History channels Dogfight series.
the episode was Called Hellcats and was about that plane

in the attack on the truk attol alot of Hellcats went in to clear the airspace before the bombers.
all the hellcats dived in to strafe ground except the last to.
the pilot (some ace i dont remember) took a look over his shoulder and saw 4 Zeros coming down from his 6 high
he went into tach weave, then broke out when they came down and they killed some,
dont remember, take a look on hit.
at youtube

but it did happen and somehow he turned it to his advantage

buzzsaw1939
11-02-2007, 11:51 AM
General.. I enjoyed this thread, keeps the old brain alive! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

zardozid.... I'm burning with curiosity, what does bunt mean?

Zoom2136
11-02-2007, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Loco-S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Loco-S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......

well, then this Israeli Pilot with 7 mig 21's in his bag ( jet ace) I work with is wrong...we have been chatting about some techniques he used against Egyptian jets..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......We're not talking fast E/speed recouping jets here...

You were saying?....Tell us again about the single Israeli 1940's prop plane vs. the 7 1940's Egyptian prop planes............
Were you not paying attention or simply picking out pieces of a post to dispute? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Youll be surprised how responsive are prop planes to power/control input, faster than jets, jets take a couple to several seconds to "spool up" and go, while on a prop job, you just shove the throttle and the response is instant.

BTW, I work with test pilots on a test program for the Adam 700 jet, we have several guys here like the following: ex fighter pilot school instructor/U2 pilot, ex A7/F14/F18 pilot, a10/F16 pilot, Mirage3/5/ F4/F16 pilot, all of them trained on the US test pilot school, I ask way too many questions to this guys, and sometimes they take time to answer.

dont get mad if I can make a comment based on what I have been answered to by this guys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Response from a turbine engine is almost instant when in the 70% to 100% RPM range... is is slower a you go down in RPM...

Piston engine are more responsive at lower RPM than a turbine engine... but slower at higher RPM.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Zoom2136
11-02-2007, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Split S.

The manouver is MADE for this situation.

You have better high speed control in the dive of the split S, you have a better dive speed in the F6F, you have a slightly better top speed.



Howeever, if you have allowed yourself to be caught low and slow and alone in ANY plane by 4 enemies, then you really need to take a look at your flying tactics.

I would advise against a Split S... this is the mamoeuver of choice of many 190s trying to escape me in my Spit IXe... and they most of the time get f***...

Because a smart Zero pilot will not follow... he will only start a shallow dive... thus carrying more speed over a longer distance... meaning as your F6 starts to lose the speed it gained in the dive... the Zero will start to slowly gain on you... you will have put your self at a great disadvantage.... with less altitude to be converted in speed...

My 2c ... it is better to start with a rather sharp dive (say 45 degrees) and a very gentil pull to keep say a 10-15 degree dive... this way you cary your speed over a longer distance...

Loco-S
11-02-2007, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Zoom2136:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Loco-S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Loco-S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......

well, then this Israeli Pilot with 7 mig 21's in his bag ( jet ace) I work with is wrong...we have been chatting about some techniques he used against Egyptian jets..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well to be frank, I'm not buying into the "turn on them and head on pass"......We're not talking fast E/speed recouping jets here...

You were saying?....Tell us again about the single Israeli 1940's prop plane vs. the 7 1940's Egyptian prop planes............
Were you not paying attention or simply picking out pieces of a post to dispute? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Youll be surprised how responsive are prop planes to power/control input, faster than jets, jets take a couple to several seconds to "spool up" and go, while on a prop job, you just shove the throttle and the response is instant.

BTW, I work with test pilots on a test program for the Adam 700 jet, we have several guys here like the following: ex fighter pilot school instructor/U2 pilot, ex A7/F14/F18 pilot, a10/F16 pilot, Mirage3/5/ F4/F16 pilot, all of them trained on the US test pilot school, I ask way too many questions to this guys, and sometimes they take time to answer.

dont get mad if I can make a comment based on what I have been answered to by this guys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Response from a turbine engine is almost instant when in the 70% to 100% RPM range... is is slower a you go down in RPM...

Piston engine are more responsive at lower RPM than a turbine engine... but slower at higher RPM.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you are not taking in account the flywheel principle, and also the analog metering of earlier turbines, ( before FADEC) they, in some instances take up to seven seconds to spool up,and most jets were operated in the regimen of 60 to 70% power (EPR N1 to P2 ratio)to conserve fuel, also, power applied to a cruising prop plane ( 55 to 65% throttle) produces a faster response (immediate, as fast as you move the throttle to allow more air fuel mixture, power will increase accordingly), power will increase up to METO power ( maximum except take off) or MIL power ( meto-time limited by manufacturer, usually around 98% for five minutes).

check your references.

general_kalle
11-02-2007, 01:21 PM
when you guys think that you dont wanna write more in this -great- tread (thanks you) you should see this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8elNUAGqILY) episode of Dogfights.
as mentioned the one on hellcats.
just forward until 04:00 and watch from there. you'll know when the 4 on 2 dogfight comes.
the pilot is CDR Alexander Vraciu
and it was

Alexander Craciu is comenting himself.