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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 02:03 PM
I just finished reading Guenther Rall "A Memoir". The book itself must be considered average. By now I have read so many books about fighter pilots from World War 2 that they all sound alike, no matter what side you're looking at. Some interesting facts for this community are that Rall had the chance to fly about every fighter aircraft around. He flew allied planes in mock combat against Luftwaffe students. I had the impression that of all allied aircraft he liked the P51 best because of range and maneuverability. His personal favorite however was the Me109G. This topic is a little confusing since he considered the 109F as the best.
He also comes up with an explanation why German pilots achieved such high scoring numbers. He claims that a German pilot either received the Iron Cross or the wooden cross. Also Germans had more targets to shoot at. He claims that an allied pilot achieving 15 to 20 victories against Germany is similar to a German scoring 100 kills.
Another interesting aspect of his life is his role in post World War 2. He was responsible for the F104 Starfighter program in the Bundeswehr. A plane that killed a number of German pilots. Interesting side story is that Erich Hartmann vehemently opposed the F104 because he felt that German Luftwaffe was not yet up to this technically advanced aircraft. Rall more or less comes to the same assessment however Hartmann left the Bundeswehr due to this issue whereas Rall became a 3 star general.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 02:03 PM
I just finished reading Guenther Rall "A Memoir". The book itself must be considered average. By now I have read so many books about fighter pilots from World War 2 that they all sound alike, no matter what side you're looking at. Some interesting facts for this community are that Rall had the chance to fly about every fighter aircraft around. He flew allied planes in mock combat against Luftwaffe students. I had the impression that of all allied aircraft he liked the P51 best because of range and maneuverability. His personal favorite however was the Me109G. This topic is a little confusing since he considered the 109F as the best.
He also comes up with an explanation why German pilots achieved such high scoring numbers. He claims that a German pilot either received the Iron Cross or the wooden cross. Also Germans had more targets to shoot at. He claims that an allied pilot achieving 15 to 20 victories against Germany is similar to a German scoring 100 kills.
Another interesting aspect of his life is his role in post World War 2. He was responsible for the F104 Starfighter program in the Bundeswehr. A plane that killed a number of German pilots. Interesting side story is that Erich Hartmann vehemently opposed the F104 because he felt that German Luftwaffe was not yet up to this technically advanced aircraft. Rall more or less comes to the same assessment however Hartmann left the Bundeswehr due to this issue whereas Rall became a 3 star general.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 02:09 PM
The kill tallies are indeed very likely the result of target availability. By the end of the war, many allied pilots were unlikely to encounter enemy aircraft at all, where German pilots during the same period would rarely fly a sortie that didn't encounter enemy aircraft.

================================================== =========================

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Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 02:16 PM
regarding the kills:
Allied pilots flew max two tour of duty rounds and after that they were pulled back to fighter schools and HQ duties flying at the desk. Just remember Boyington‚¬īs story or Closterman‚¬īs (his third tour on Tempest was made entirely by puling strings and connections). On the other hand GE pilots fought until they died or the war ended.



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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 02:20 PM
vonAffentitten wrote:
- regarding the kills:
- On the other hand GE pilots fought
- until they died or the war ended.
-

I guess that's what he ment by Iron Cross or wooden cross!

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 02:37 PM
Yes, Addi, he mentioned the same in an interview...
He said "Man konnte entweder ein Holzkreuz (=wooden cross) oder ein Eisernes Kreuz (=Iron Cross) erwerben".
The wooden cross marks the grave of a front-line soldier...

http://www.luftwaffe-art.com/image/DORA_9.jpg

Paradox: Niemand will sterben, aber alle wollen in den Himmel....

POSITIV DENKEN, NEGATIV W÷LBEN !

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 02:47 PM
Bremspropeller wrote:
- Yes, Addi, he mentioned the same in an interview...
- He said "Man konnte entweder ein Holzkreuz (=wooden
- cross) oder ein Eisernes Kreuz (=Iron Cross)
- erwerben".
- The wooden cross marks the grave of a front-line
- soldier...
-

Are you referring to the interview that is on Janes flight sim?

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 02:48 PM
No, I've got a VHS-cassette about german fighter-aces in WW2...

http://www.luftwaffe-art.com/image/DORA_9.jpg

Paradox: Niemand will sterben, aber alle wollen in den Himmel....

POSITIV DENKEN, NEGATIV W÷LBEN !

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 03:37 PM
Bremspropeller wrote:
- No, I've got a VHS-cassette about german
- fighter-aces in WW2...
-

-
- Paradox: Niemand will sterben, aber alle wollen in
- den Himmel....
-
- POSITIV DENKEN, NEGATIV W÷LBEN !

That sounds interesting. Is that in NTSC (US standard) or PAL (European) ?

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 03:58 PM
It's european...

http://www.luftwaffe-art.com/image/DORA_9.jpg

Paradox: Niemand will sterben, aber alle wollen in den Himmel....

POSITIV DENKEN, NEGATIV W÷LBEN !

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 04:50 PM
Any ideas if this VHS still can be bought somewhere? I love those kinds of WII aviation documentaries!

regards, GurraZ

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 04:57 PM
Eagle Rock Entertainment PLC

http://www.luftwaffe-art.com/image/DORA_9.jpg

Paradox: Niemand will sterben, aber alle wollen in den Himmel....

POSITIV DENKEN, NEGATIV W÷LBEN !

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 05:17 PM
Thanks!

regards, GurraZ

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 08:43 PM
Nice post! And one of the reasons that there were fewer American aces with higher kills is because after a certain period of service, the pilots would be let off duty. This gave them less opportunity to keep shooting at the Luftwaffe planes.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 08:56 PM
Message Edited on 03/05/0312:21PM by Halfen

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 12:32 AM
Out of curiosity, did it say anything about how Rall got to be such an excellent marksman? I have read that he is considered to be one of the Luftwaffe's best shots. Just wondering if he just had the "knack" in the plane, or did something in his pre-war life make him a naturally good shot...such as hunting.

Danke!

http://www.fowlmood.com/files/jaeger.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 01:21 AM
I don't know about Rall, but I read somewhere that H-J Marseille used to practice shooting lizards in the desert with his pistol while they were running away.

Video game - 1942 style!

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:18 PM
Marseille is a dirty city /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Be seeing you.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:57 PM
I also just finished reading that book 1 week ago.

i was very dissapointed the author ruined what could of been a great book at least there are a lot of pics.

the main problem I had with the book was the lask of detail.
So no it did not say how he became a good marksman. I liked the chapter when he describes his meeting with hitler and his life after the war. But you think with all the kills she could freakin give us some details.

the book is an utter dissapointment.

I just about halfway through a book called Thunderbolt! by Robert s johnson.

It is by far the best WW2 fighter book I have read. He describes everything is such detail. It is really amazing and exactly what I want to read about. I don't need a history lesson like in gunther's book. The chapter where he recounts being almost shot to pieces is and flying home in the p-47 is absoluting freakin riviting I was almost sweating with him in the cockpit. That chapter is the best description of being shot at in a fighter plane I have ever read. I definatly really recommend thsi book.

unfortunatly gunther's book sucks Donkey but...soon i will starte reading Stuka Pilot by rudel and the eric hartmann book.



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"I like Boobies" - Me

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:24 PM
napalm_raven wrote:
- And one of the reasons that there were
- fewer American aces with higher kills is because
- after a certain period of service, the pilots would
- be let off duty. This gave them less opportunity to
- keep shooting at the Luftwaffe planes.
-
-Yes and less opportunity to crash and burn and more holidays and rest.


G√ľnther Rall, Luftwaffe ace in Finland June 2003
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/



Nice boobies /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Message Edited on 08/07/0309:28PM by Nikodemus-LH

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:34 PM
If you do the math and compare number of kills versus number of sorties flown, you will quickly reach the conclusion that the American would have had a number of 100+ aces, if only they had flown a similar number of sorties as their German counterparts did.

Another difference is that, from the American point of view, the air war was flown over the front garden of their opponent. When an American pilot was shot down, it was highly likely that he would spend the rest of the war in a POW camp. A surviving shot-down German just climbed into another cockpit and went up again the next day.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:42 PM
Oh yeah, about the book ..... I would have preferred a co-author who was better versed in the technicalities of the subject upon which she was writing. There were a million such questions which she probably did not ask of Rall. But apparently Rall liked her and trusted her. On the plus side, I appreciated the way he and she presented his evolution from unquestioning adolescent to a mature man. You can read the book as both as a fighter pilot history (where it is just ok) and as the autobiography of an interesting human who lived through tumultuous times (where it is better than average). Given the choice between her book and no book, I'll take the deal as it is.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:46 PM
BLUTARSKI wrote:
- If you do the math and compare number of kills
- versus number of sorties flown, you will quickly
- reach the conclusion that the American would have
- had a number of 100+ aces, if only they had flown a
- similar number of sorties as their German
- counterparts did.

also a fair number would have reached the "wooden cross" state when flying more sorties against more enemies

hmm, can't decide /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif or /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



quiet_man

second foundation member of the EURO_Snoopy fan club!

I'm quiet_man, but if I post I post quiet much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 09:03 PM
Kinda OT but i just checked one thing....Werner M√¬∂lders got over 40 kills in BoB alone....certainly didnt british pilots fly fewer missions and there certainly wasnt a shortage of targets. Yet there are few allied BoB aces to even come close even Douglas Bader. How come? Apart from the obvious answer, inexperienced pilots etc..


Message Edited on 08/07/0308:04PM by Olli_72

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 09:19 PM
Olli_72 wrote:
- Kinda OT but i just checked one thing....Werner
- M√¬∂lders got over 40 kills in BoB alone....certainly
- didnt british pilots fly fewer missions and there
- certainly wasnt a shortage of targets. Yet there are
- few allied BoB aces to even come close even Douglas
- Bader. How come? Apart from the obvious answer,
- inexperienced pilots etc..
-

Didn't the Germans tend to have an "experten" system in which the flight leaders tended to take most of the shots and were supported by the other pilots? If so, this would tend to give some pilots high scores. Perhaps the British ended up "spreading the wealth" a bit more.

I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong!

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:11 PM
quiet_man wrote:

- also a fair number would have reached the "wooden
- cross" state when flying more sorties against more
- enemies


No doubt about it. The more often you roll the dice, the better the chance that you'll come up "snake eyes".



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:49 PM
When my father was in Museberg POW camp Luft VIIb I believe it was, One day they saw about a dozen 190D- variants get bounced in the end what was about 40 to 50 Mustangs and Jugs that came from out of nowere... All 190s were shot down he believes. How could you survive those odds as a German pilot or any nationality pilot for that matter?....man what a waste of human life

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:56 PM
Met Gen. Rall when I was in my teens and he was visiting mutual acquaintances at Davis-Monthan AFB (late 1960's)- a charming and humorous man- and he could still read the time off someone else's watch from across the room. Our host (my girlfriend's father) was also a fighter pilot(F-4Ds), and mentioned that Herr Rall had over 270 kills in WWII, which asounded me (up to that point, the only references I'd read generally discounted German claims; check that, 1000 Destroyed, mentions POWs with stories of meeting Luftwaffe aces with 100+ kills without comment).

Rall said that if the Americans were flying multiple short sorties defending New York, Boston, and Philadelphia from 1000 plane bombing raids daily, some of them would have run up similar scores. He joked that he could never have flown escort sorties like our guys had: "My bladder would have exploded!" Our host replied that he'd just have to cut back on the beer, to which he recoiled in mock horror.

He said the Amis were good enough to blow off his left thumb and shoot him down on what he'd thought was one of his better days, and he was lucky to have been wounded when he was. My date had to drag me out the door, or I'd have more to tell...

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:59 PM
As a matter of interest, I met Rall at his book signing at Duxford (Flying Legends). Nice chap...it absolutely amazes me to think about what he has seen and done in life and here I am asking him to sign a battle of britain drawing...quite strange......

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 11:14 PM
2 things I read here what seemed not fully correct or better said partly wrong./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

From summer 44 on, the skies over German held territory was tight under Allied controll, although some like to state it wasn't. Also that "target available" myth is simply wrong, that's a creation by an author or whatelse, but not by a person who served any kind of armed forces. Fact is, if you are outnumbered and hard pressed, always controlled and lacking on fuel and ammo, there's so very difficult to get a kill - and bring that kill home to your base. Maybe you'll find a victim who's daydreaming - and shot it down. At that moment you openend fire your chances to come home to your base, alive, is reduced to an absolute minimum. To get a kill or more for quarantee you need at least a local air superiority what didn't exists for the Luftwaffe at that stage of war.

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une t√¬™te carr√©e comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura



Message Edited on 08/07/0311:15PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 11:49 PM
Dont take Clostermans book to serius, he describes many fights aginst wellknown opponent at dates when their "geschwader" was at another place. Check it up Clostermans book must be considered as fiction.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 12:02 AM
nt = No Text

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 12:05 AM
KIMURA wrote:
- 2 things I read here what seemed not fully correct
- or better said partly wrong- From summer 44 on, the skies over German held
- territory was tight under Allied controll, although
- some like to state it wasn't. Also that "target
- available" myth is simply wrong, that's a creation
- by an author or whatelse, but not by a person who
- served any kind of armed forces. Fact is, if you are
- outnumbered and hard pressed, always controlled and
- lacking on fuel and ammo, there's so very difficult
- to get a kill - and bring that kill home to your
- base. Maybe you'll find a victim who's daydreaming -
- and shot it down. At that moment you openend fire
- your chances to come home to your base, alive, is
- reduced to an absolute minimum. To get a kill or
- more for quarantee you need at least a local air
- superiority what didn't exists for the Luftwaffe at
- that stage of war.
-
-

Sometimes the Germans DID manage temporary local air superiority. From Bud Anderson:

"It seemed we were always outnumbered. We had more fighters than they did, but what mattered was how many they could put up in one area. They would concentrate in huge numbers, by the hundreds at times. They would assemble way up ahead, pick a section of the bomber formation, and then come in head-on, their guns blazing, sometimes biting the bombers below us before we knew what was happening."

http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 12:32 AM
IIJG1_Jaeger wrote:
- Out of curiosity, did it say anything about how Rall got to be such an excellent marksman? I have read that he is considered to be one of the Luftwaffe's best shots.

In one of the books I have on the history of the ME109 he was rated by his collegues as the master of deflection shooting.

Actually the number of kills he has is the number of confirmed kills. During the last days of the war they used to practise frontal attacks against B-17s in order to avoid the heavy fighter escort and did not bother to stay long enough to count the downed bombers...I think he was flying ME262s during the end.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 03:43 AM
"Out of curiosity, did it say anything about how Rall got to be such an excellent marksman?"

The following quote is from the book
Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe
by Toliver and Constable

page 146 - 147

Rall always made light of his own shooting prowess. He considered his skill due to hard work. Repeated exposure to aerial combat was the kind of hard work he meant:
"I had no system of shooting as such. It is definitely more in the feeling side of things that these skills develop. I was at the front five and a half years, and you just develop the feeling for the right amount of lead.
Fritz Oblesser, who later became Commander-in-Chief of the Bundesluftwaffe, was many times my witness in various victories. He flew with me often. I used to say to him, 'Look at me and I will show you how to do it.' He was surprised and exultant, as well as incredulous, that you could destroy an aircraft from such positions as are possible to one who has the feel for deflection shooting.
Sometimes Oblesser would be literally shouting with surprise at some of these victories of mine. I couldn't always turn around directly on their tails. In some cases, an attempt to do so would have put them on my tail, and allowed them to down me. Sometimes, I would put the nose up, and with that feeling for the lead which I have described, press the triggers at the moment my intuition and experience told me was right.
"Boom! The other aircraft would fly right into the hail of bullets and shells.
So I say that I had no sytem, and do not consider myself a genius fighter pilot. I had victories from the farthest to the shortest range - even down to a mid-air collision - and I say emphatically that it was hard work and experience that gave me my success."

JG14_Josf