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Wildnoob
06-19-2009, 12:32 PM
I was in Wikipedia rigth now and the today's featured article is about the "Akutan zero, also known as koga's zero and the aleutian zero".

it was the first zero captured intact by the allies, in july 1942, and served for great help for the allies understading and learn about the aircraft and devolped tactics and know it's week points for be used in the so new aircraft designs. such zero was a A6M2-21 model.

I was reading the article and them discovery something very new to me. here it is the specific part of the text:

"Also, its engine cut out under negative acceleration due to its float-type carburetor. We now had the answer for our pilots who were being outmaneuvered and unable to escape a pursuing Zero. Go into a vertical power dive, using negative acceleration if possible to open the range while the Zero's engine was stopped by the acceleration"

never read anything about it, never imaginate that the zero as a carburator type float type fuel injection. wat surpresive me more is that Oleg didn't modeleted this in IL2.

maybe our modders friends can put this in the list of future add ones, isn't? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

folks, I belive that logic the later versions have a direct fuel injection engine, but this really caugth me with surprise much surprise really. never read anything about, this is the first time, altough I don't read much anyway. maybe it's some idiot news just for me, as for that really sorry and I will delet this topic if this is the case.

and this is the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akutan_Zero

Wildnoob
06-19-2009, 12:32 PM
I was in Wikipedia rigth now and the today's featured article is about the "Akutan zero, also known as koga's zero and the aleutian zero".

it was the first zero captured intact by the allies, in july 1942, and served for great help for the allies understading and learn about the aircraft and devolped tactics and know it's week points for be used in the so new aircraft designs. such zero was a A6M2-21 model.

I was reading the article and them discovery something very new to me. here it is the specific part of the text:

"Also, its engine cut out under negative acceleration due to its float-type carburetor. We now had the answer for our pilots who were being outmaneuvered and unable to escape a pursuing Zero. Go into a vertical power dive, using negative acceleration if possible to open the range while the Zero's engine was stopped by the acceleration"

never read anything about it, never imaginate that the zero as a carburator type float type fuel injection. wat surpresive me more is that Oleg didn't modeleted this in IL2.

maybe our modders friends can put this in the list of future add ones, isn't? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

folks, I belive that logic the later versions have a direct fuel injection engine, but this really caugth me with surprise much surprise really. never read anything about, this is the first time, altough I don't read much anyway. maybe it's some idiot news just for me, as for that really sorry and I will delet this topic if this is the case.

and this is the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akutan_Zero

danjama
06-19-2009, 12:40 PM
I'll look this up in my japanese warplane book, i'm skeptical. Maybe a very early variant had a carb engine. Which model exactly is this talking about, definitely the a6m2-21?

Normally it's the case that some types are fit with carb fed engines premature to the development of a direct injection unit being available. I'm sure they did not mass-produce any such plane.

berg417448
06-19-2009, 12:47 PM
When the Zero was first put into this sim it came with a negative g cutout based on this report. Oleg later removed this feature in a subsequent patch when he was show evidence from Japanese sources that the Zero never had a negative g cutout.

It is believed that the captured Zero displayed this quality because it was improperly re-assembled when it was repaired.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...621021275#6621021275 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6911021275?r=6621021275#6621021275)

DKoor
06-19-2009, 12:55 PM
Oh boy... imagine the worst possible surprise in combat due to bad intel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif .

Jaws2002
06-19-2009, 12:56 PM
If i remember corectly, after carefull examination of the captured plane by the allies, they installed the carburator wrong, upside down i think. That's why it cut fuel flow to the engine.

It happened with other captured aircraft over time. You don't always know enough about an airplane of the enemy to make a perfect evaluation of the type, based on a single captured aircraft. Remember the "fogging up of the canoppy" in the Mig-15? That was just a simple faulty system in that particular aircraft and not a general rule for the Mig-15.

Jaws2002
06-19-2009, 12:59 PM
One more thing. Not all planes with carb had the neg G cutout.

Not too many planes in WW2 had fuel injection, but most found a way around the negG cut-out one way or another.

Wildnoob
06-19-2009, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
I'll look this up in my japanese warplane book, i'm skeptical. Maybe a very early variant had a carb engine. Which model exactly is this talking about, definitely the a6m2-21?

Normally it's the case that some types are fit with carb fed engines premature to the development of a direct injection unit being available. I'm sure they did not mass-produce any such plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

according to the article:

"was a type 0 model 21 "

the aircraft was from the Ry?j? ligth aircraft carrier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...rier_Ry%C5%ABj%C5%8D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Ry%C5%ABj%C5%8D)

I'm surprise again that a Wikipedia featured article can contain such information. I learn a LOT of things by Wikipedia and still going to use it as a basic research source, altough many people already told me to be careful with it and trusth more in publications them it. I think that is totally possible to trusth in Wikipedia, altough is good to check some books also if possible.

R_Target
06-19-2009, 01:06 PM
What I have says the same as what the others noted. The carb was not installed properly for this flight test. Apparently, there was no manual provided with the plane.

danjama
06-19-2009, 01:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
When the Zero was first put into this sim it came with a negative g cutout based on this report. Oleg later removed this feature in a subsequent patch when he was show evidence from Japanese sources that the Zero never had a negative g cutout.

It is believed that the captured Zero displayed this quality because it was improperly re-assembled when it was repaired.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...621021275#6621021275 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6911021275?r=6621021275#6621021275) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

taht would make most sense i guess.

Wildnoob
06-19-2009, 01:07 PM
I already hear also, repeat, this is not a afirmation, is something that I hear but can't confirm. that the I-16 actually can hold 3 minutes in a high negative G maneuvers that the fuel injection, if I'm not wrong, just will cut of the suply to the engine after that time. I don't know the tecnical reasons for this though. while the IL2 I-16 witch have this in a instantan form would be wrong.

this fall out of the topic's subject, but anyway, already anyone also already anything about this and can confirm if this is a myth if possible, please?

danjama
06-19-2009, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
What I have says the same as what the others noted. The carb was not installed properly for this flight test. Apparently, there was no manual provided with the plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif those inconsiderate japanese!

Is there any other factors that would effect the time taken before neg G cutout occurs? Such as leftover fuel residue/vapours in the cylinders/manifold? meaning the engine would run under neg G without fuel being introduced for a short period....I'm curious.

DKoor
06-19-2009, 01:16 PM
I remember FB zero (original one A6M2-11) having neg G cutout http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

R_Target
06-19-2009, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif those inconsiderate japanese! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Wildnoob
06-19-2009, 01:59 PM
thank you very much folks!

I gonna report this to the Wikipedia's article.

Ba5tard5word
06-19-2009, 02:22 PM
Interesting.

Yeah maybe you guys should try and get that bit of the article edited, especially so that future flight simmers don't get any ideas but also to reflect the truth. However you'd probably need some documentary proof of the improper carburator installation for a citation.

K_Freddie
06-19-2009, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
thank you very much folks!
I gonna report this to the Wikipedia's article. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is what Wiki is all about.. It's open for correction.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Wildnoob
06-19-2009, 03:37 PM
I creat a topic in the discussion page from the article.

here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Akutan_Zero

when make this post is was the last one in the list. anyway, it's tittle is: "I think that may a wrong information is may being provide on this article".

a person reply:

"Informational Intelligence Summary 85 (linked from this article) says explicitly that the engine cuts out under negative acceleration. on this especific aicraft I already hear that during the repairs the allies instaled in carburator on the wrong way, so thefore this had happen. - I don't have Rearden's book handy, but I remember that the appendix contains an exhaustive list of all modifications made to the Zero after it was recovered. And, as far as I recall, it did not say the carburetor was replaced. Raul654 (talk) 20:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)"

yeah, the problem is that I'm like a soldier without my rifle. I need some sources because like Ba5tard5word said, they will not take my opinion in consideration if don't have any. I need find some sources about this.

danjama
06-19-2009, 05:27 PM
Well the best way to do that is to find out WHY Oleg changed it in the game, what was Olegs source...if it's a creditable source (and it better be and i'm sure it will be) then use it over there.

Woke_Up_Dead
06-19-2009, 05:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
I already hear also, repeat, this is not a afirmation, is something that I hear but can't confirm. that the I-16 actually can hold 3 minutes in a high negative G maneuvers that the fuel injection, if I'm not wrong, just will cut of the suply to the engine after that time. I don't know the tecnical reasons for this though. while the IL2 I-16 witch have this in a instantan form would be wrong.

this fall out of the topic's subject, but anyway, already anyone also already anything about this and can confirm if this is a myth if possible, please? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know much about airplane engines, but having owned and worked on some old carburated cars before, I would say that your information about the I-16 is wrong. In cars, carburetors are installed connected directly to the engine, there is no hoses or fuel reservoirs in-between; if you starve the carb the engine dies right away. Besides, what kind of maneuver requires 3 minutes of high negative-G's?

Wildnoob
06-19-2009, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
I already hear also, repeat, this is not a afirmation, is something that I hear but can't confirm. that the I-16 actually can hold 3 minutes in a high negative G maneuvers that the fuel injection, if I'm not wrong, just will cut of the suply to the engine after that time. I don't know the tecnical reasons for this though. while the IL2 I-16 witch have this in a instantan form would be wrong.

this fall out of the topic's subject, but anyway, already anyone also already anything about this and can confirm if this is a myth if possible, please? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know much about airplane engines, but having owned and worked on some old carburated cars before, I would say that your information about the I-16 is wrong. In cars, carburetors are installed connected directly to the engine, there is no hoses or fuel reservoirs in-between; if you starve the carb the engine dies right away. Besides, what kind of maneuver requires 3 minutes of high negative-G's? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, I don't remember where I read it, and where I was with my thoughs when posted this. but you have totally sure, there's absolutely no sense in that definetely not.

thanks for the help in make me percept this!

julian265
06-19-2009, 07:17 PM
3 minutes of negative G? I'd be more worried about the oil supply and pressure loss destroying the engine, than the engine stalling.

danjama
06-19-2009, 07:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by julian265:
3 minutes of negative G? I'd be more worried about the oil supply and pressure loss destroying the engine, than the engine stalling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the oil should be fine.

Wildnoob
06-19-2009, 07:30 PM
some things seems to be very strange to me.

in fact almost all of Japan's military aviation history was literally destroyed during the war. if we see the veteran pilot's today, in fact most already died and there are few of those guys remaning today, and nearly all are late war pilot's, most where even nuggets. the first generation of pilot's that where the really professional ones (with totally respect to the others, that fougth with much bravure but didn't have acess to the proper training and modern aircraft) in the battle of Khalkhin Gol, Sino Japanese War and early in WWII, nearly of those guys died in combat later. Saburo Sakai was probably one the last one of those flyiers to die. at least he was Japan's top ace to be still alive until that. he die in 2000.

a few years ago I watched a documentary about the battle of Midway and a B5N pilot give it's testimonial of the battle. the guy was with very good healty apparentely, hope that he is ok now and last many, many, many time. be for the damm of the advanced age or by the war itself, there are very few of them today, much, far much less them in the allied nations I mean. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

ok, sad really sad, but nothing new I know. even because the desmilitarization and all, I think that some things are strange from the point of documentation, strange not, despert me some curiosity would say. for example, with sure MANY people all over the world where involved in documented the Japanese military aviation since the end of WWII until the momment you are reading this. but for example I have a soberb publication in PDF called "Japanese Aircraft Interiors" that mister stalkervision provide us, thank you very much for that buddy! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

by the way this is the link of the topic he created for share it:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...3110283/m/7581019067 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7581019067)

highly recommended!

ok, many early war planes like the G3M "Nell", the Ki-21 "Sally" and many others, and even late war models, but the last ones are very easy to understand by the point I want get. they have pictures of cockpits of the planes like the own book tittle itself says, but color picture seems to not be very widely used in Japan by those times. because at least the book publishers didn't find any know color images from those planes. so for example, many planes have the following wrote in the color description section "there are not detalied or even know informations about the colors".

today may not, but I bet that some of those guys are still around. but rigth in the post war, in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s. those guys with totally still existed and I think that is strange this. it was just ask to a veteran pilot for example: "hello great warrior! please if possible I would like to ask something to you, wat was the color of the control panel of your plane?"

it's so bizarre that such informations seems to be not had been colected during the years rigth after following the war. ok, there's no logic this not happen, with totally sure it was not simple, because if was, LOGIC that we would have this informations.

but in this same question about the Zero. no A6M2 pilot NEVER tell ANYTHING about it?

hard to belive, really. no one never ask this to Saburo Sakai?

that aviator was one of the earlist pilot's to flow the A6M. he flow it first over China, rigth after it's introduction.

we are in a discuss for that now. know, all those decades and most of the guys where gonne and we don't have this info. but I BET that there's some A6M2 pilot's alive today.

I'm contradiction with logic in relation to the avaliability of those informations, understand wat I want to mean folks?

danjama
06-19-2009, 07:49 PM
I have a book you would be interested in, Japanese WW2 planes in colour, private message me for details.

Wildnoob
06-19-2009, 08:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
I have a book you would be interested in, Japanese WW2 planes in colour, private message me for details. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOWWWWWWWWWW

no, no, no, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

I will refuse, but really thanks buddy!

I also have books with color drawings. actually I import a series of Japanese books called Maru Mechanic (Leimtov that introduce me to them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

I don't speak the Japanese langague, so don't understand anything of rich content of the books, so stay just with the images. and they are EXCELLENT color drawings of the plane or the planes that every idition cockpit's that each edition cover rigth in the first page.

I have a edition from the B5N/B6N and one from the A5M/FM1. in fact I just buy those books because of those drawings. and google or any other search sites are really not my friends, so I buy them. I will start to study the Japanese langague, if I manage to learn something of it maybe some day I will be able to even read them, but it's just something utopic. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

my next edition will be about the Ki-21. the only negative point is that such publications just have drawings of the cockpit.

anyway, really thanks again!

danjama
06-19-2009, 08:48 PM
Ok no problem mate but if there is anything specific you want to know about the interior colours or exterior colours just ask and ill try and find out for you, theres alot of photographs in this book.

Wildnoob
06-19-2009, 09:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
Ok no problem mate but if there is anything specific you want to know about the interior colours or exterior colours just ask and ill try and find out for you, theres alot of photographs in this book. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thank you very much again, I don't have words!

but really, I just like from early war planes. my like is from most antecessors of famous WWII aircraft. I like from the Ki-27 (at least this one is on the sim as flyable http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), the A5M, Ki-21, the G3M, the B5N/B6 (last one a late war plane though).

wish that Oleg add those planes when SOW series get in the pacific theater of operations, and I have totally sure that will get.

I will feel so much sad for say this, those poor civilians, but I would like to make the first oversea bombings of history that where conducted by G3M's departing from mainland Japan.

here's a part of a text about it from the Wikipedia:

"departing from bases for effectively crossing the East China Sea,for bombing Hangchow and Kwanteh, among others actions of terror bombing in coastal and inland targets in China, including the infamously-treacherous bombing of the Battle of Shanghai and Nanjing. Thus, while it was the first transoceanic bomber in air war history, it also had the dubious distinction of being the first mass-produced bomber aircraft to wage terror bombing indiscriminately on civilians"

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G3M_Nell

horrible, horrible... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif


but I still would like to do such missions, NO WAY for because that most targets where the big urban centres, but for the mission itself, for the long range fligth that I just love.

but I want make it with my friends. want that SOW series allows multiple seat aircraft be tripulated by players online in all positions, not just for gunners, but for radio operator, bombardier, navigator and co-pilot. and that all these positions have a lot of features, the radio operator have a lot of comunication functions, the navigator have at least some basic fligth instruments such as the fligth computer.

I just would love to make a 4, 5 hour mission that way. even already think in make a local network, posicionate all the computers like the designed positions of the crew in each part of the aicraft and fly.

it's my dream, and Oleg will realise it some day, I'm sure it will! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

PS: I are totally against any type of war and don't even need to say anything about indiscriminately civilian bombing. I don't want to spread violence with my post and love the Chinese people and wish etern rest for all those persons that die in that horrible way, sorry for use this term, in such shi* of war. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Muddy17
06-19-2009, 10:54 PM
It was the first "INTACT" ie flyable but a few years earlier in Pearl Harbor they had an almost compleat zero droped in there laps {broken in two just aft of the cockpit},
Through- 1*unrealistic time to inspect and report {they wanted answers right now} and 2* compleat ignorance to the fact that the Japanies may have the ability the create this aircraft,,6 or 7 days later the US military was given a report that stated it was nothing more than a light weight airframe made up of outdated copied American parts.

This also exlains the upside down carborator, as well as a few other misassesments, as it was taken apart in a rush instead of really examining the plane.

This is also nothing that I know for a fact but read in a recent edition ov AV-History mag,,