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View Full Version : Message to UB Montreal -- all that's needed for perfection: Damage control sliders



fulukai
11-20-2007, 09:39 AM
I think the game is truly phenomenal but suffers just one main flaw: way too forgiving combat. Basically, when fighting, each strike of the enemy doesnt damage Altair too much (and moreover, he also regenerates energy during combat). How about just providing an option to change the damage done by each strike of the enemy? This shouldnt be as much code as say changing the AI fight behaviour (which I presume is a lot more work and not possible for a patch).

Ideally, all we need are sliders for controlling damage for various strikes, e.g., arrows from an archer, strikes to the head/torso/leg, damage done by counter grabs/counter strikes of the enemy etc. Damage obviously would be measured by how many synch bars are lost.

This way, for example, archers (who are currently not the brightest foes), could be made very significant by setting the arrow damage to one-shot kill. Similarly, a grab or counter move by an enemy could be made more damaging making the fights that much more tougher and interesting.

Any thoughts? Is it possible for the devs to confirm whether this is possible to provide via a patch? I really think it would go a long way to balance out the difficulty as one could tinker it depending on the style of gameplay.

Eponym
11-20-2007, 11:31 AM
Should have had difficulty settings at launch. The A.I. is fine, it's just that the damage is so forgiving the enemies might as well be swinging nerf bats at you.

fulukai
11-20-2007, 03:24 PM
exactly. I wish they fix this via a patch cos it shud really be trivial to implement, and will make a huge difference in terms of gameplay..

currently, I dont use counterattack and also time the defensive block (instead of holding down RT) to make the fights more challenging (which they are now)..but its still far from perfect..

Bad_Boy19801980
11-20-2007, 03:30 PM
Hmm its a good idea but i dont think they can fix it : o

It might be somthing they will put into the pc version..well i hope they do.. : )

fulukai
11-21-2007, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Bad_Boy19801980:
Hmm its a good idea but i dont think they can fix it : o

It might be somthing they will put into the pc version..well i hope they do.. : )

Well, that would suck. In fact, I remember a Ubisoft dev demoing the game a while back (probably Patrice) saying that a single blow to the head would kill you in the game, but that certainly doesnt happen..come'on Ubi, is it really so hard to provide difficulty sliders just for damage?

The general problem is that since the combat is easy due to the forgiving damage, you can ignore all the information learnt during the investigation before an assassination, walk straight up to the target kill him, make off with everyone else and get away...quite pointless..so much for cleverly planning a kill

mattborges
11-21-2007, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by fulukai:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bad_Boy19801980:
Hmm its a good idea but i dont think they can fix it : o

It might be somthing they will put into the pc version..well i hope they do.. : )

Well, that would suck. In fact, I remember a Ubisoft dev demoing the game a while back (probably Patrice) saying that a single blow to the head would kill you in the game, but that certainly doesnt happen..come'on Ubi, is it really so hard to provide difficulty sliders just for damage?

The general problem is that since the combat is easy due to the forgiving damage, you can ignore all the information learnt during the investigation before an assassination, walk straight up to the target kill him, make off with everyone else and get away...quite pointless..so much for cleverly planning a kill </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just agree with you!!
Why would Altair kill the enemy with just one right blow with a sword but not the enemy do the same!!
It's kind of a super hero... Xmen!!!
I think that Altair could be seriously wonded when he gets hit... this will make us think and plan more before going there and just kill the guy without fear of dying!!
Would be more challenging!!
And I've really heard in a interview that Altair could die with a single well hit blow!!

C'mon UBI... fix that for console players and for us PC players that are waiting!!!

Cheers!!!

(sorry for my english anyway!!)

MiniAssasin
11-21-2007, 08:35 AM
you know i wouldnt play the game if i died to a single blow to the head

was a nice idea at first but for a game it stupid and frustrating

fulukai
11-21-2007, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by MiniAssasin:
you know i wouldnt play the game if i died to a single blow to the head

was a nice idea at first but for a game it stupid and frustrating

well, that's why you have a slider so that you can have your own damage settings! you don't have to make it a 1-shot kill if you think that's too hard, but some damage value in-between to make it challenging enuf for you

unnamedninja
11-21-2007, 11:27 AM
I totally agree utterly and completely with the first post.

The combat is completely too easy, even escaping is too easy. I would love a slider that i could use to make guards run faster and more difficult to fight. The game is almost ruined by the way you have to try and keep it challenging, the only way i can think of is to wear a blindfold while i'm playing.

Eponym
11-21-2007, 01:13 PM
Let's cut through the bull**** right now: They absolutely, positively CAN fix it. It's a matter of will they. Hopefully, they care about their game and their fans enough to listen to them.

midna1
11-21-2007, 03:30 PM
oi, if you were any good at the game you would'nt take hits anyway. And for the donkey player it just saves having to reload all the time. Unless you prefer watching the load screens rather than playing?

fulukai
11-21-2007, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by midna1:
oi, if you were any good at the game you would'nt take hits anyway. And for the donkey player it just saves having to reload all the time. Unless you prefer watching the load screens rather than playing?

*Sigh*. its called *SLIDER* for a reason! the "donkey" player can set it to whatever setting he/she wants to not die often. and I didnt get your point about taking hits when playing..what's that got to do with the topic of this thread?

midna1
11-22-2007, 03:45 PM
With 1 hit equaling death on Altair you're basically saying that you want to reload the game every time you take a hit. AC's lenience has the same approach as Bioshock's vitachambers. It cuts out the reloading and backtracking.

the difficulty curve in this game is about being able to engage 25 enemies without taking a hit. I doubt any of you guys can do that yet ... for shame. So stop complaining that it's too easy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

So with a damage slider. You put the slider up and you spend more time dying, reloading and backtracking. Sounds like fun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif solution = MGS style ranking at the end based on the hits taken http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Now piss off.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-22-2007, 04:59 PM
I'd prefer it if they just tweaked the guards so that as soon as they find a dead body they go on full 'swords out' alert. As it is right now I can simply run away after the guards find my handiwork because it takes them like 15 seconds to get their swords out.

Plus, when you're returning from one of the major assassinations I reckon the guards should chase you on sight. That would make getting back to the assassin's bureau that much more interesting. Right now I can basically stroll past guards with no real difficulty once I've killed all the initial enemies.

On a related note - why is it that whenever someone suggests OPTIONAL difficulty levels some boobs come out against it? I mean don't they understand what 'optional' means?

midna1
11-23-2007, 07:37 AM
The words 'patch' and 'optional' are mutually exclusive. You tit.

unnamedninja
11-23-2007, 08:09 AM
It doesn't just cut out backtracking and reloading, it cuts out challenge, and difficulty, and fun, and lots of stuff.

If you find the combat of assassin's creed any one of those things then you're very lucky.


The words 'patch' and 'optional' are mutually exclusive. You tit.


They're going to have to patch the game anyway, but seriously. "Oh noes, they have added a difficulty slider to my options menu, i feel teh violated!!!"

midna1
11-23-2007, 08:34 AM
They just need a MGS style ranking system at the end i.e. under 50 hits taken = silver hawk. Or in your case + 900 hits and falling off buildings = brown pidgeon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif. Yet you say the combat was too easy?

So it would look totally ridiculous if you start having Terminator 2 style super guards.

Don't make the slider Ubi.

Robbinho1992
11-23-2007, 08:56 AM
About a post here. SOmeone said that if you 2Feel any one of these thigns your lucky" or something. I very much like to play AC, and get fun out of it. I like the difficulty of being invicible(Nearly) Unless i totally get surornded. Like others have said, with reloading, it depends where you alst killed a Templar or got a flag, and for someone like me who has nearly all the flags in some places, that can be hard to do. I dont like dying opther and other again and if i do i do get frusturated. I guess if it was optional , i wouldnt mind, as i i might make it a bit harder, but i dont see developers coming on to these forums to actually look at our opinions. They'll have PR guys that find out sales and reviews and will gof rom there, but your free to try and get this implememnted.

unnamedninja
11-23-2007, 09:20 AM
Midna i'm not sure what's wrong with you, but i dont get killed on assassin's creed. A ranking system alone wont fix the difficulty or make the game any more fun, ironically it would take more effort to code than a damage slider. MGS was actually difficult, if you adjusted the difficulty level to suit your skill level. Myself personally, i like a game where i get killed sometimes, it keeps me on my toes.

And like someone said before, what kind of troll would say dont make a slider? If you dont need to adjust the difficulty level then dont, why would you deny it to other people?



I very much like to play AC, and get fun out of it. I like the difficulty of being invicible(Nearly) Unless i totally get surornded. Like others have said, with reloading, it depends where you alst killed a Templar or got a flag, and for someone like me who has nearly all the flags in some places, that can be hard to do. I dont like dying opther and other again and if i do i do get frusturated

Well i'm sure theres a lot of people out there who get totally surrounded and still never die, i'm one of them. I'm not even saying i have a decent level of skill for games, i've played multiplayer games and i know i'm just a very average gamer.

Royal.Mist
11-23-2007, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by MiniAssasin:
you know i wouldnt play the game if i died to a single blow to the head

was a nice idea at first but for a game it stupid and frustrating

Because 7 year olds hate playing hard games. Stick to Toy Story.

Kada-Dix
11-23-2007, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MiniAssasin:
you know i wouldnt play the game if i died to a single blow to the head

was a nice idea at first but for a game it stupid and frustrating

Because 7 year olds hate playing hard games. Stick to Toy Story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My partner works with children and young adults who have brain injuries... some of whom love playing games... difficulty sliders or Simpsons Hit & Run style "Skips" would be a great idea for those that geniuinely struggle

Pr0metheus 1962
11-23-2007, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by midna1:
The words 'patch' and 'optional' are mutually exclusive. You tit.

Who said they weren't, *****?

Pr0metheus 1962
11-23-2007, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by unnamedninja:
It doesn't just cut out backtracking and reloading, it cuts out challenge, and difficulty, and fun, and lots of stuff.

If you find the combat of assassin's creed any one of those things then you're very lucky.

I find AC fun, adequately difficult and challenging but unlike some here I'm not arrogant, ignorant or self-centred enough to want to deny options to those who don't feel the same way about it.

midna1
11-24-2007, 04:01 AM
Hey this thread isn't about me. Get over that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
11-24-2007, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by midna1:
Hey this thread isn't about me. Get over that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

I just thought the post where you called someone a tit was just a tad childish. That doesn't mean I think the thread is all about you, but clearly your posts are all about you.

Royal.Mist
11-24-2007, 09:30 AM
They got rid of 1 hit one kill to the head because of how many 7-14 year olds it would turn away from the franchise.

fulukai
12-01-2007, 10:00 PM
let's look at how Altair fares against the enemy:
- he runs much faster than the guards
- he regenerates health during a battle
- his throwing knives on archers are 1 shot kills, yet arrows from the archers remove one synch bar
- he can fall from tall bldngs and lose little or no health, yet guards falling from the same height die instantly
- his counter attack is a 1-shot kill (until late in the game), whereas guards seldom counterattack
- he is the only person in the game who can ride a horse (except for Richard in the cutscene but that doesnt count)
- he can block pretty much any attack by holding down RT..

given all this, its obvious why the combat in general, and specifically the first 6 assassinations in the game are fairly trivial..at least the last 3 are tougher due to the sheer no of guards and the fact that counter-attack becomes less effective..

anyway, my point is - I can surely understand giving Altair some advantages over the enemy given that he's facing tons of them in this game, but unfortunately the odds are stacked too heavily in his favor

Rufus_Da_Doofus
12-02-2007, 05:42 AM
Just a thought but, the less synch you have the less damage you do, this would also make you want to plan your fights because you dont want to take too much damage. for instance, on AC my normal technique is to swing my sword around and kill loads of em, and then once I reach 1 synch bar just use counter attacks till i regen.

Pr0metheus 1962
12-02-2007, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by fulukai:
I can surely understand giving Altair some advantages over the enemy given that he's facing tons of them in this game, but unfortunately the odds are stacked too heavily in his favor

He's an ultra-elite Assassin - the best fighter the Assassins have at their disposal, and he's facing poor to average to merely good troops. The odds are realistically stacked in his favour.

The player in this game isn't supposed to lose all the time in some sort of grind-fest. That sort of game is evidence of lazy programming. Intense difficulty for its own sake is empty.

This game is supposed to give a medium amount of challenge. It's simply not designed for the player who can't handle a game unless it makes him replay sections ten or more times. The entertainment of this game is found in other areas. Players need to evolve beyond the notion that ultra-hard games are good games. A game doesn't have to be almost impossible in order for it to entertain.

Rufus_Da_Doofus
12-02-2007, 10:35 AM
yes but when i played through the game for the first time without dieing once, there is something wrong

Pr0metheus 1962
12-02-2007, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Rufus_Da_Doofus:
yes but when i played through the game for the first time without dieing once, there is something wrong

If you played through this game without dying once there IS indeed something wrong: what's wrong is that you play games far too much and you're in the top 1% of players that is not a target audience for games like this. Heck, I probably play games more than is healthy and I died more than twenty times playing this game the first time.

Cut down your addiction to video games and you'll find the game challenging enough.

Anyway, the point of a game is not whether you die or not when playing. The idea is to get through without dying. You're complaining about successfully completing a game. I really don't see what your problem is. You beat the game first time - you should be happy.

fulukai
12-02-2007, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rufus_Da_Doofus:
yes but when i played through the game for the first time without dieing once, there is something wrong

If you played through this game without dying once there IS indeed something wrong: what's wrong is that you play games far too much and you're in the top 1% of players that is not a target audience for games like this. Heck, I probably play games more than is healthy and I died more than twenty times playing this game the first time.

Cut down your addiction to video games and you'll find the game challenging enough.

Anyway, the point of a game is not whether you die or not when playing. The idea is to get through without dying. You're complaining about successfully completing a game. I really don't see what your problem is. You beat the game first time - you should be happy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your missing the point here Beeryus. I agree with you that making the game unnecessarily difficult for the sake of it is pointless, and can be quite frustrating. But what the game does is quite the opposite - by making it too simple, it takes away the thrill and satisfaction of completing an assassination, which is the heart of the game.

I don't know about you but in the majority of the missions, I could ignore *everything* learnt during the investigation, walk up straight to the target, make of with him easily, kill *every single guard* around him, and walk out there like Darth Vader. No need to plan a route to the target. No need to run and hide at all. At this rate, the game should have been called Rambo's Creed.

So the point is - the central premise of the game (and if you watch the trailers and read the numerous previews before release you would get this impression) - is the whole planning of an assassination and the ensuing escape, which is supposed to be challenging and exhilarating. If you found it so for all the missions, good for you. Plenty of people (incl me) didnt find it so for a majority of the missions. I enjoyed the last three missions (especially the last one in Jerusalem), because the difficulty ramps up gradually and reached a nice balance for me by then. But what about the first 2/3rds of the game?? Is it unreasonable to have difficulty sliders so that one can enjoy a suitable challenge on all the missions? I think not.

One other point: I can see people getting frustrated at the higher difficulty levels (if this option is added), but this is a flaw of the save game feature (which is broken for various other reasons). Maybe a patch can also provide the ability to save anywhere.

Pr0metheus 1962
12-02-2007, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by fulukai:
I don't know about you but in the majority of the missions, I could ignore *everything* learnt during the investigation, walk up straight to the target, make of with him easily, kill *every single guard* around him, and walk out there like Darth Vader.

To me this is a good thing. The player gets to choose whether he plays the game like Rambo or whether he plays the game smart and minimizes casualties. Sure, if you just go in like Rambo it can be simple, but if players really want more difficulty why don't they use the flexibility the game has and try to only kill the 9 targets without harming anyone else? The game does emphasize the idea that Assassins have a duty to leave innocents unharmed, and the player has the option to do that, so if the game seems too simple why not use that option?

There are many ways to make the game harder without demanding a patch. I mean if you really want the game to be hard, don't do the extra missions that gain synch points. No one is forcing any player to get the full synchronization that makes the game that much easier. No one's forcing you to climb the towers that give you a God's eye view of the investigation points. You can play the game with as much or as little difficulty as you want.

I mean it seems to me that those complaining about lack of difficulty aren't really interested in the freedoms that the game gives the player. They seem to want to be FORCED to play the game in one limited way. I prefer the way the game is set up - I prefer to choose what level of difficulty I want by making decisions in the game that limit or enhance the level of difficulty.

On my next playthrough I plan to try to kill only the targets given to me by Al Mualim. That is truly playing the game at its most difficult because it forces me to avoid the synch points gained by helping citizens, by interrogating (and killing) Templar agents and by killing other Assassins' targets. Try playing the game that way, then we can talk about how the game is too simple or lacks challenge.

fulukai
12-02-2007, 12:23 PM
To me its a bit fake to try to do an assassination without killing a single guard when you know theyre all pretty harmless. It takes away from the immersion and believability of the whole experience. (Having said that, I do intend to do this on my second playthrough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But the other big problem is that there is no way to get to the assassination target without doing the investigations, and these are all trivial, e.g., interrogation -- why can't the target put up more of a fight; pickpocket -- why can't the target be more alert, or run away when he catches you; eavesdrop -- this is a joke; informer stealth kills -- these get challenging only towards the end. It would be great if every aspect of the game could be made challenging.

BTW, on a related note: are there special achievements for doing an assassination without killing anyone else? I hope there is. I know one can do several things to make the game harder -- turn off the HUD, dont do the save citizen missions, do only stealth kills (these are my 3 goals for my second playthrough) but it would be nice if the game provides incentives for doing things stealthily.

Pr0metheus 1962
12-02-2007, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by fulukai:
To me its a bit fake to try to do an assassination without killing a single guard when you know theyre all pretty harmless.

Fake? To obey the Assassin's Creed? Surely that's the very opposite of fake. Whether they're harmless or not, your duty is to kill your target and leave innocents alive.


But the other big problem is that there is no way to get to the assassination target without doing the investigations

You only have to do two or three per assassination, and of course they are, as you say, trivial - they are not the point of the mission, only a stepping stone. If they were as interesting as the assassination people would be complaining that the assassinations were anticlimactic.


It would be great if every aspect of the game could be made challenging.

I disagree. It would be frustrating if every little bit of the game presented a challenge. Good game design involves pacing and a game that's fast-paced throughout leaves the player confused and annoyed. You have to have pauses in the action to allow the player to catch his breath and so that the action punctuates the story in a meaningful way.


BTW, on a related note: are there special achievements for doing an assassination without killing anyone else? I hope there is. I know one can do several things to make the game harder -- turn off the HUD, dont do the save citizen missions, do only stealth kills (these are my 3 goals for my second playthrough) but it would be nice if the game provides incentives for doing things stealthily.

I don't think there are. And from my perspective this is the real flaw in the game.

fulukai
12-02-2007, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Beeryus:
Fake? To obey the Assassin's Creed? Surely that's the very opposite of fake. Whether they're harmless or not, your duty is to kill your target and leave innocents alive.

Guards aren't any more innocent than your target. So its not really your *duty* to leave the guards alone.



You only have to do two or three per assassination, and of course they are, as you say, trivial - they are not the point of the mission, only a stepping stone. If they were as interesting as the assassination people would be complaining that the assassinations were anticlimactic.

Yes, but making them trivial leaves them pointless. They obviously shouldn't be as interesting or challenging as the assassination, but *some* difficulty here is seriously needed.


I disagree. It would be frustrating if every little bit of the game presented a challenge. Good game design involves pacing and a game that's fast-paced throughout leaves the player confused and annoyed.

I think you keep forgetting about the VARYING difficulty level option via sliders -- you can set it to whatever level you want to make the game challenging but not frustrating/confusing/annoying. This really implies freedom of choice.



I don't think there are. And from my perspective this is the real flaw in the game.

At least I agree with you on this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
12-02-2007, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by fulukai:
Guards aren't any more innocent than your target. So its not really your *duty* to leave the guards alone.

How do you figure they're guilty? What crime have they committed? Surely guarding a criminal doesn't make the guard guilty.


Yes, but making them trivial leaves them pointless.

Surely their point is to get you to the assassination. You cannot get to the assassination without completing two or three of them. There has to be some hurdle that stops the player from going from one assassination to another, otherwise the game would just seem superficial. This reminds me of the old 'time sink' debate in MMORPGs - some folks complain that instant travel is needed in these games, but part of the fun is in the interactions we get during the journey. Without AC's investigations we wouldn't find key clues and key story points that the assassination itself doesn't give us. These are a 'point' in themselves and the stuff we learn is well worth the task. Personally I find some of the interactions priceless in terms of their humour. The fact that you don't appreciate them does not mean that the investigations are flawed - it just means that you just don't appreciate what they offer, and that could be your fault. In fact, since many players enjoy the investigations it's likely that your expectations are what need changing, and not the game's design.


I think you keep forgetting about the VARYING difficulty level option via sliders -- you can set it to whatever level you want to make the game challenging but not frustrating/confusing/annoying. This really implies freedom of choice.

AC gives you similar options, but it gives you them in the game so that you can alter the difficulty as you progress rather than in an options screen outside the game that you have to set for the entire game. Anyway, the vast majority of arcade style games don't give the player sliders. We usually get two or three pre-set difficulty levels and that's it. Hardly true freedom to tweak the game to a player's requirements.

fulukai
12-02-2007, 05:24 PM
We can debate this to death. We'll just have to agree to disagree. One point is irrefutable -- adding an option for difficulty sliders via a patch certainly isn't going to ruin the experience for anyone. It can only help those who arent satisfied with the game (and its obvious there are plenty in that category).

Pr0metheus 1962
12-02-2007, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by fulukai:
One point is irrefutable -- adding an option for difficulty sliders via a patch certainly isn't going to ruin the experience for anyone.

I've always been in favour of difficulty sliders in every single game I've ever played.

fulukai
03-27-2008, 06:38 PM
rekindling a very old thread w/ the hope that someone at UBI is paying attention to this simple request for the pc version - 2-4 damage sliders!! which will go a long way to improving gameplay

otherwise, im hoping someone figures out how to tweak the ini's to increase difficulty

iPlunder
03-27-2008, 06:39 PM
Ubi couldn't care less about us.

Sadly.

caswallawn_2k7
03-27-2008, 06:51 PM
They do care but only about how much money you want to give them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

membernametaken
03-28-2008, 02:58 PM
I can't wait until AC2... more interviews with Jade... mmm, yeah.

But seriously folks... i'm sure Ubi is busy trying to make a completely convoluted sequel that will pose more questions than answers to the mysteries of the first one and will only set up for the third installment.