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Loki-PF
05-23-2005, 08:23 AM
May 18 BSA €" 35% of the software installed on PC€s worldwide was pirated in 2004, Losses due to piracy up to $33 billion. http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/05-18-2005/0003634303&EDATE=

Highest Rates: Vietnam 92%, Ukraine 91%, China 90%, Zimbabwe 90%, Indonesia 87%

Lowest Rates: USA 21%, New Zealand 23%, Austria 25%, Sweden 26%, UK 27%

SeaNorris
05-23-2005, 09:57 AM
WOW, UK in the lowest....

fherathras
05-23-2005, 10:22 AM
Zimbabwe has computers? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

SeaNorris
05-23-2005, 10:24 AM
They have the patch too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

faustnik
05-23-2005, 10:41 AM
I wonder what the software availability is in the countries listed with the highest piracy rates? I doubt that they can go to "Best Buy" doen the street and purchase software. I doubt that "Amazon.com" ships there either. We don't really have an excuse in North America or Western Europe but, it is good to see the low rates here.

ploughman
05-23-2005, 11:03 AM
WOW, UK in the lowest....


I was suprised too, we being a nation of thieves and all.

Lucius_Esox
05-23-2005, 11:10 AM
I'm not suprised by those figures.

I've got a friend who married a Tai lady and make frequent visits to Thailand.

Last time he came back he showed me the PC games that he had "brought" in that country..

The whole FB AEP PF series= about 3 English, numerous other top notch recent releases all a similar sort of price.

From what he is saying it's almost regarded as the "norm" being able to buy this stuff in any market of decent size.

What he didn't have was a copy of Half Life 2, which makes me wonder if Steam have gone the right way.

I moaned big time with that long winded registration process for that game, but in retrospect, and looking at the above figures I will not have a problem with that sort of thing in the future.

Pirschjaeger
05-23-2005, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">WOW, UK in the lowest....


I was suprised too, we being a nation of thieves and all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And now you're trying to STEAL the Aussie's claim to fame? Ha ha ha, you might be right after all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
05-23-2005, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
I'm not suprised by those figures.

I've got a friend who married a Tai lady and make frequent visits to Thailand.

Last time he came back he showed me the PC games that he had "brought" in that country..

The whole FB AEP PF series= about 3 English, numerous other top notch recent releases all a similar sort of price.

From what he is saying it's almost regarded as the "norm" being able to buy this stuff in any market of decent size.

What he didn't have was a copy of Half Life 2, which makes me wonder if Steam have gone the right way.

I moaned big time with that long winded registration process for that game, but in retrospect, and looking at the above figures I will not have a problem with that sort of thing in the future.

Lucius,

I live in China. I cannot buy a real copy of WindowsXP or 2000. I cannot buy PF. I cannot buy SH3. I cannot buy real DVDs. Patch 4.0 has been offered to me on three occasions, different beta versions.

I have everything I mentioned with acception to the patch: I don't want it until it's finished. This piracy thing is a pain in the a$$ to me cause I want boxes, manuals, stupid advertisements for other games. But due to the piracy the manufacturers have no market here. I would rather pay 250.00 euro for a real copy of XP, but I can't.

Even the Guiness here is brewed in Singapore. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Fritz

FI-Aflak
05-23-2005, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
I'm not suprised by those figures.

I've got a friend who married a Tai lady and make frequent visits to Thailand.

Last time he came back he showed me the PC games that he had "brought" in that country..

The whole FB AEP PF series= about 3 English, numerous other top notch recent releases all a similar sort of price.

From what he is saying it's almost regarded as the "norm" being able to buy this stuff in any market of decent size.

What he didn't have was a copy of Half Life 2, which makes me wonder if Steam have gone the right way.

I moaned big time with that long winded registration process for that game, but in retrospect, and looking at the above figures I will not have a problem with that sort of thing in the future.

I am a big fan of Steam. One, it prevents piracy very well. Two, its so **** easy - I bought HL2 Silver through Steam. so in my steam program in my list of games I can play it just added all those that came with the package (lots of em), just click on one and it will download + install it and then you can play it. Three - convieniance. I'm got my school computer, when I come home on holiday I can install steam on one of the workstations here, log in, play HL2.

Contrary to what you might believe, you don't have to be connected to the internet to play through steam. YOu just need to be connected to download+install. I can play HL2 without my computer connected to a WAN.

it is a great system. Other companies should emulate it.

Waldo.Pepper
05-23-2005, 12:51 PM
What is software piracy? Define it please!

Ash yourself how this industry group knows what they claim to know!?

Now read this...hmmm.

http://news.com.com/2100-1025_3-5121479.html

NorrisMcWhirter
05-23-2005, 12:53 PM
And an important point missed, also. How much do these items cost, as a portion of the average salary, in the countries listed.

A lot of it has to do with culture, yes, but a lot has to do with people simply not having the money to pay for these things. Of course, you'll say, 'well, you shouldn't have them then..', and I agree, but that's part of the problem.

On the other side of the coin, how much does PF retail for in different parts of the world? I'd imagine that it would sell for approximately the same in most "G8-style countries" but what is the shop price for it in Russia (yes, I know it's in the G8)/Eastern Europe/Far east etc? I bet you they don't pay the equivalent of 35 quid for it in a shop in those places.

And that is another swizz - why should I pay more for the same item as someone in, say, Laos? Because I earn more/the market will stomach it? I don't think so - that's as good as an excuse for people in the UK pirating it as anything.

Cheers,
Norris

Aero_Shodanjo
05-23-2005, 12:54 PM
As a citizen of one of the country listed in the highest rate... No, im not proud. It's sad but true... But if you're all interested in hearing this side of the story...

However, this is by no means an excuse. I'll only write what I know, whether it'll be understandable or totally unnacceptable, whether this will lead to a constructive critics and discussion (hopefully) or flame war, I'll leave the judgement to each person in here.


Originally posted by faustnik:
I wonder what the software availability is in the countries listed with the highest piracy rates?

I cant speak for all the countries but for Indonesia, they're almost none. I say almost because there are a few stores (you can count the numbers with one hand - really) in the whole city that sell original softwares, but it's often old softwares and mostly OS.

They just cant expect to sell $100 softwares in a country where $50 means a fortune for most of it citizen. Put in other words, for many in here, $50 could feed a family with two children for a month.


I doubt that they can go to "Best Buy" doen the street and purchase software. I doubt that "Amazon.com" ships there either.

Amazon ships here alright. Me & my family has bought several books from them. But the condition is that internet access for most people is still a privilege enjoyed by a few.

But then there's also another problem: credit card fraud. Sad to admit that most websites refused to ship anything to here. There were many occasions where the police managed to catch the offenders although it's still far from over.

Back to the piracy itself, the government and the police has conducted many clean ups. They were only partially successful as in one major raid, they managed to shut down stores that sell pirated software but then, several months later, they're back in business in other places.

I would like to write more about my thought on this. But I think I'll stop for now and will add more later...

Regards.

Aero_Shodanjo
05-23-2005, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
What he didn't have was a copy of Half Life 2, which makes me wonder if Steam have gone the right way.


Believe me, it sells here in a 2 cd's pack.

Troll2k
05-23-2005, 01:04 PM
I guess it depends on what article you read.This article said The US,Canada,and the European Union account for more that half of the pirated software.

I guess maybe it depends if they are talking percentage or total units(and money) lost.

http://www.gamers.com/?run=news&news_id=4362

Capt.LoneRanger
05-23-2005, 01:45 PM
And of course it really depends on whom you ask. According to an article in our news about half a year ago, every single PC in Germany has pirated OS or programs.

I doubt that. (Infact I have proof that this statement isn't true http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

But this statement came from a software distribution company, wanting to increase punishment for software piracy.
It was shortly followed by yet again another statement from a group of companies in the music buisiness, stating millions of dollars lost due to piracy.
Funny enough, at the same time, there was an old song from a preschool-TV-show in the top ten, that had only been published as shareware, until everybody wanted to have it on CD. They made a HUGHE amount of money, from that single song ("Schnappi").

Well, the point is, if I want to make a statement, of course I use statistics that underline my statement. No matter, where the numbers come from and how they were calculated. Of course, you can say every PC in Germany has pirated software, if you take out a shipment of illegal CDs and calculate the numbers of found illegal CDs to the number of PCs running, but that is non-sense.

And according to my founded database, 78,9% of the statistics are purely speculative and have just been invented. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Jetbuff
05-23-2005, 02:21 PM
I used to live in Sudan, Northern Africa. There were precisely ZERO stores selling original software and this was in the capital Khartoum. At other locations you can't even get priated copies!

Now, even if the law was observed and only legit copies were sold, quite frankly no one would buy them - at an exchange rate of $1 = 2000 Sudanese pounds, a $40 game is more than the monthly salary of a freshly graduated doctor! (~$30)

Now, I'm in Canada and buying software is not a problem. More significantly I can make the required mulah for a purchase in a couple of hours.

What the software industry have to realize is that, at least in developing countries, a huge proportion of "pirated" software does not really represent lost sales. Yes, it's wrong to pirate, but the big firms are not really "losing" anything. Actually, if you think about it, they're essentially gaining some valuable name-recognition which should parlay nicely into future market-share if/when local economies pick up. Besides, it's not like these companies are at poverty's doorstep or anything.

Unfortunately, there is always the temptation of "why pay for something when you can get it for free/cheap?" even if you could afford - witness the Thai software expedition mentioned above. And the pirates are not going to say no to anyone. However, these probably represent a minor fraction of total pirated software.

Even more unfortunately, this does not help smaller players where even a small increase in the proportion of pirated wares means that they stand to lose their entire profit margin. If I were in the software business I would take some steps to safeguard my products but honestly, I think the anti-piracy "solution" fees are the bigger rip-off. They cost the developers an arm and a leg, piss off the consumers, cost even more in support fees and then don't even do what they're supposed to be doing! *cough* Starforce *cough* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

arcadeace
05-23-2005, 02:30 PM
I'll be completely subjective and open with this subject. I've grappled with this ever since I've been going online. To this day I cannot honestly say downloading and using copywrite software against the EULA agreement, is stealing. I won't go into my reasons in this post but I'm not the only one holding different definitions for thievery and property, nor having used 'pirated' software in this forum. I have paid for all of my flight sims, full retail at that, and will continue.

Aero_Shodanjo
05-23-2005, 02:37 PM
Just a thought... But somehow I wish if only software companies are willing to sell their programs in a more "friendly" way...

Such as open a representation office and then offer their prospective consumer to pay - say, in credits -....

I know, dream on... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

WTE_Ibis
05-23-2005, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">WOW, UK in the lowest....


I was suprised too, we being a nation of thieves and all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And now you're trying to STEAL the Aussie's claim to fame? Ha ha ha, you might be right after all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sending their convicts to Australia caused a brain drain in the UK and lowered its' collective IQ. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Lucius_Esox
05-23-2005, 03:59 PM
Does raise interesting economic questions, and ethical one's!

Change PC s/ware/games for medical equipment/supplies. Different picture I'm sure most of you will agree.

In economic terms though they are both commodities, albeit one is/should be subsidised.

Profit is essential for the product to be produced and it has to come from somewhere, countries with cash!

I think for the producers the countries where there is little market for their goods the piracy rate is less worrysome than say somewhere like Britain.

If pirated s/ware from some of the worse offending countries started appearing in numbers, in again, somewhere like Britain, major freakout!!

I suppose it's all factored into the cost.

In effect we are subsidising people playing IL2 series in countries poorer than ours!

My own opinion, and I must stress my own, thats fine by me!!

oops
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Sharkey888
05-23-2005, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
In effect we are subsidising people playing IL2 series in countries poorer than ours!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I bought the original IL-2 from Russia with the patch( No-not THAT patch!!), poster and T-shirt for $15USD. I paid $40USD here in the USA for the same without the goodies.

blakduk
05-23-2005, 05:56 PM
I have seen a lot written about Piracy and the dire predictions made by various commentators about the impending collapse of the games and music markets. Most people i know will readily pay a reasonable price for original material vs buying potentially dodgy products from unlicensed sources. Its not so long ago that EVERYONE i knew had vast collections of recorded cassettes of music and PC games. If anything, piracy was more rampant then than it is now!
I also recall when Beta (remember them?) and VHS VCR's were first introduced it was heralded as being the death knell of the movie industry- another prediction that turned out to be utterly false. A lot of software companies have taken smart decisions as far as marketing their products by introducing them as shareware or freeware, building customer familiarity and loyalty THEN choosing to charge higher prices for their fully developed and supported programs. Additionally, once they have recovered costs they tend to release their obsolete products at minimal costs- the original IL2 is cheaper to buy now than it would be to convince a friend to pirate a copy for you!
In 3rd world countries software manufacturers are not losing customers- these people would never be able to afford the prices the 1st world pays. I think there is a strong argument that if developers and artists dropped their prices more they would end up with greater revenue through greater volume of sales.

BTW Pirschjaeger- you wrote "And now you're trying to STEAL the Aussie's claim to fame? Ha ha ha, you might be right after all."
I take great offence at that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif, one of my ancestors was transported to Oz as a convict, he was done for forgery. We are not a nation of thieves, we are a nation of incompetent thieves- the clever criminals were left behind in the UK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-23-2005, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
As a citizen of one of the country listed in the highest rate... No, im not proud. It's sad but true... But if you're all interested in hearing this side of the story...

However, this is by no means an excuse. I'll only write what I know, whether it'll be understandable or totally unnacceptable, whether this will lead to a constructive critics and discussion (hopefully) or flame war, I'll leave the judgement to each person in here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
I wonder what the software availability is in the countries listed with the highest piracy rates?

I cant speak for all the countries but for Indonesia, they're almost none. I say almost because there are a few stores (you can count the numbers with one hand - really) in the whole city that sell original softwares, but it's often old softwares and mostly OS.

They just cant expect to sell $100 softwares in a country where $50 means a fortune for most of it citizen. Put in other words, for many in here, $50 could feed a family with two children for a month.


I doubt that they can go to "Best Buy" doen the street and purchase software. I doubt that "Amazon.com" ships there either.

Amazon ships here alright. Me & my family has bought several books from them. But the condition is that internet access for most people is still a privilege enjoyed by a few.

But then there's also another problem: credit card fraud. Sad to admit that most websites refused to ship anything to here. There were many occasions where the police managed to catch the offenders although it's still far from over.

Back to the piracy itself, the government and the police has conducted many clean ups. They were only partially successful as in one major raid, they managed to shut down stores that sell pirated software but then, several months later, they're back in business in other places.

I would like to write more about my thought on this. But I think I'll stop for now and will add more later...

Regards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also live in one of the countries list. You hit the nail right on the head.

Here in Beijing, the average annual income per family is quite high relative to the rest of China. About 200 Euro or $220.00. That's anually! How much does WinXP cost? Get the picture?

The reason I cannot buy the real XP is because it's simply not available. I can however, buy a copy and hope for some degree of quality. It goes for 1 Euro or $1.10 per copy.

With acception to PF all my games come from the U.S. and are therefor real. But this was not so easy to do either. I must find someone travelling to America and back to Beijing. Then it depends whether they have time or not.

The piracy thing is a reality and there's little that can be done about it. The manufacturers claim they lose a certain amount of money but realistically it's BS. Imagine if there were no piracy. Who would buy these things in Asia? Who can afford it? Just the cost for marketing here would be a loss since they couldn't sell enough product.

I have suspected for a long time now, that the manufacturers actually support piracy behind the scene. I believe they sell their software into piracy and earn untaxable money. Why is it that we can download any game here before it's released? Why did I have WinXP before it was released? Why can I get any movie before it hits the cinemas? You see a common pattern here?

We can blame the pirates for piracy just as we can blame the drug abusers for the illegal drug industry, but that's not logical. There is such thing as "supply and demand". So, ho is the supplier?

Although I'm no expert, I believe the manufacturers support piracy to earn "black money" They then report unreasonable losses to make an excuse to raise their prices in the west.

If what the manufacturers claim was true, then that means piracy starts in the west, inside their companies.

Think about it.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
05-23-2005, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">WOW, UK in the lowest....


I was suprised too, we being a nation of thieves and all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And now you're trying to STEAL the Aussie's claim to fame? Ha ha ha, you might be right after all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sending their convicts to Australia caused a brain drain in the UK and lowered its' collective IQ. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-23-2005, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by blakduk:
BTW Pirschjaeger- you wrote "And now you're trying to STEAL the Aussie's claim to fame? Ha ha ha, you might be right after all."
I take great offence at that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif, one of my ancestors was transported to Oz as a convict, he was done for forgery. We are not a nation of thieves, we are a nation of incompetent thieves- the clever criminals were left behind in the UK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

It seems you and WTE_Ibis might be have a disagreement. Would the real Aussie please stand up. Who stole my seat?http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz

PF_Coastie
05-23-2005, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Troll2k:

I guess maybe it depends if they are talking percentage or total units(and money) lost.



I am sure that has a lot to do with it. Lets take one for example:

Zimbabwe 90% - A total of 30 people own PC's in this country. 10 of them enjoy the occassional gameing experience. 9 of them have pirated copies of the games they play 1 actually bought the boxed versions.

There ya go! 9 whole people stole software in Zimbabwe. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

blakduk
05-23-2005, 09:38 PM
Pirschjaeger- "It seems you and WTE_Ibis might be have a disagreement. Would the real Aussie please stand up. Who stole my seat?"

I must admit that i have a bet each way- my Dad was a Brit and i have three passports (a UK, an Australian, and a New Zealand one) due to fortuitous circumstances of birth/ancestry. Its great during the rugby world cup- i just have to choose which jersey to wear to the game.
Basically Aussies became law abiding when they realised they had been transported to paradise. As my Irish cousin asked me incredulously one day on Sydney harbour, 'The English sent you here as PUNISHMENT?????'
Who said crime doesnt pay?

Pirschjaeger
05-23-2005, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by blakduk:
Pirschjaeger- "It seems you and WTE_Ibis might be have a disagreement. Would the real Aussie please stand up. Who stole my seat?"

I must admit that i have a bet each way- my Dad was a Brit and i have three passports (a UK, an Australian, and a New Zealand one) due to fortuitous circumstances of birth/ancestry. Its great during the rugby world cup- i just have to choose which jersey to wear to the game.
Basically Aussies became law abiding when they realised they had been transported to paradise. As my Irish cousin asked me incredulously one day on Sydney harbour, 'The English sent you here as PUNISHMENT?????'
Who said crime doesnt pay?

It seems crime doesn't pay when you miss the boat. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

GerritJ9
05-24-2005, 02:33 AM
In the Ukraine, the original Il2, AEP, Barbarossa and Fall Blau (each 1 CD) cost 20 hryvnas, FB and PF (each two CDs) cost 40 hryvnas. I assume that they were originals- a pirate XP pro costs 15 hryvnas, or less than 2.50 Euros. Pirate games cost 10 (single CD) to 20 (two CDs) hryvnas. Exchange rate was approximately 6.50 hryvnas to one Euro. Buying a pirate version of IL2 would save 10 hryvnas, but since the pirate versions would also have to be made and distributed with profit made at each stage in the setup, I don't see how pirates can make much money that way. I suspect that it would amount to 1-2 hryvnas per CD sold which would, in the Ukraine, not be worthwhile for such a niche market as flight sims are. Windows XP, however, is another matter- the price difference plus demand for an OS (MUCH greater than for flight sims) means that there is realistic money to be made in them. The original 1C CDs are affordable, but an original XP isn't- so, people turn to pirate XPs.

rnzoli
05-24-2005, 03:27 AM
I live in Central Europe, with medium piracy rates (~40). IL2, FB, PF are available here, on relatively affordable prices. But AEP is not sold at all, my friends and I had tremendous problems in getting it.

I spend many hours trying to find a good source. If I want to have an original from a trusted online vendor, I have to turn to UBI in UK that ships the CD only via an expensive courier (despite their Terms and Conditions on their web-site!), as if C-E was at the South Pole.

A friend of mine got it from eBay, it was sent from Asia (!) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Out of frustration, I will eventually copy and crack the CD - while wondering about how to send the retial price to Oleg directly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Another friend of mine is still waiting for an opportunity to buy AEP in a store somewhere in Sweden. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

WTE_Ibis
05-24-2005, 03:30 AM
It is reported that after word got back to England
about the weather and surf in the penal colonies down under there was a massive surge in crime in the UK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

OldMan____
05-24-2005, 06:16 AM
I don't know how law is in all countries, but here ifa software is not sold in the country, it is NO crime to get an ilegal copy of it for PERSONAL use.

But most blockbuster games are sold here. I personally thing is more a culture issue. Money is an issue? Yes, but I know lots and lots of guys that have P4 3.6 GHz with a XT800 Platinum a 19 inch LCD monitor and they only get pirated games. they say it is because it is expensive.. BULL **** if you can buy a top PC you can buy a few games too. I spend about 300 dollars per year buying games. That is about 1/2 my month payment. It not that cheap.. but I wont get an ilegal copy since as a developer I know how hard it to create such things.

Pirschjaeger
05-24-2005, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
I don't know how law is in all countries, but here ifa software is not sold in the country, it is NO crime to get an ilegal copy of it for PERSONAL use.

But most blockbuster games are sold here. I personally thing is more a culture issue. Money is an issue? Yes, but I know lots and lots of guys that have P4 3.6 GHz with a XT800 Platinum a 19 inch LCD monitor and they only get pirated games. they say it is because it is expensive.. BULL **** if you can buy a top PC you can buy a few games too. I spend about 300 dollars per year buying games. That is about 1/2 my month payment. It not that cheap.. but I wont get an ilegal copy since as a developer I know how hard it to create such things.

Hi Oldman,

I feel strange calling you that but I have no choice. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Anyways, you have a good point but it wouldn't work everywhere. As you said, many guys have monster pcs and still use pirated software. Well, here in Beijing a monster pc is easy to come by, and cheaper than many places in the world. But one thing remains the same; software availability. You simply cannot find a real copy of PF here. Since IL-2 first came out I've had to buy copies while waiting to get the ral ones. Availability is important. In my previous post in this thread I explained why piracy is supported by the actual manufactures, both to sting the tax collector and you.

Fritz

rnzoli
05-24-2005, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
I don't know how law is in all countries, but here ifa software is not sold in the country, it is NO crime to get an ilegal copy of it for PERSONAL use.

You're not a lawyer for sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The licence agreements even prohibit us from making a safety copy of the disk for OURSELVES.

Aaron_GT
05-24-2005, 04:06 PM
May 18 BSA €" 35% of the software installed on PC€s worldwide was pirated in 2004, Losses due to piracy up to $33 billion

The methodology used in the survey is somewhat suspect.

Also to arrive at the loss figure they simply assumed that every pirated piece of software represents a loss of a sale, when may actually lead to a subsequent sale, or if the software simply would not be used (and not purchased) if not pirated.

Certainly, though, there is a lot of pirating going on, and some represents an actual loss through theft, some represents lack of distribution, and some might be ameliorated with lower software costs or better licensing models for software.

Airmail109
05-24-2005, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">WOW, UK in the lowest....


I was suprised too, we being a nation of thieves and all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And now you're trying to STEAL the Aussie's claim to fame? Ha ha ha, you might be right after all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sending their convicts to Australia caused a brain drain in the UK and lowered its' collective IQ. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you sir know something about geography and demographics http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

JunkoIfurita
05-24-2005, 07:14 PM
So it seems likely that there are two major groups dumped under the blanket heading of 'software piracy'.

a) Those who live in strong economic countries, where the minimum wage is of a level to make purchase of American priced software possible, who still pirate the software because they're too lazy/thrifty to pay for it themselves.

b) Those who live in countries of an economy that could NEVER support the purchase of software at standard prices. Much of South East Asia, for example. The hardware thing is a separate issue - I'll get to that in a moment.

The problem is, when calculating 'Global Software Piracy' figures, the people under group (b) get lumped under the whole blanket of 'piracy' without taking into account a simple fact.

Were there to be no piracy in this area, the software manufacturer wouldn't lose any revenue, as there is no way that these people could become regular, full-paying customers. However, when you consider all the copies of Windows XP in the Phillipines to be owned by 'customers' then it appears that SE Asia is taking a massive amount of the income away from the software vendors.

I'm not saying this is a solid rule one way or another - there are always some rich in every country who could afford to pay for the software, and there are those in America who get far below the minimum wage and really CAN'T afford to buy software. But with this taken into account, I imagine the projected figures would change SIGNIFICANTLY.

When it comes to just about everything aside from games, there are alternatives that countries such as Zimbabwe (reading Slashdot here - and Zimbabwe has a LOT of machines, trust me) have been trying to implement. Zimbabwe, even though it's percentage piracy is quite high, is also one of the largest Linux user groups globally. All the government machines, school machines, public machines (and private machines for those lucky few who can afford them) are all running linux based, open source systems. For multimedia, spreadsheeting, image editing, sound recording, education, etc Linux has free alternatives that can get the job done (yes, it is harder to learn, but if it's what available, the learning becomes just part of things).

Games are different - first of all because they're relatively cheap. $25 American for a game as opposed to $100-$150 American for Windows XP.

Also there aren't a lot of free Linux alternative games that have a big following.

However, games are also extremely attractive, so piracy is going to occur, no doubt - more so than in areas where Linux or FreeBSD can fill the void.

In SE Asia, the argument goes, people can 'afford' high end machines to run the games, so what's their excuse for pirating the games to run on them?

Where is all our computer hardware manufactured (probably in sweatshops)? China, Korea and South East Asia. I know for sure (Uncle came through there last year) that you can pick up a MONSTER machine, we're talking 6800Ultras, etc, for under $100. That's opposed to $2000 minimum over here. The wage is low, but considering that you only buy a computer every few years, lets call it equivalent. So if affordable (gaming) computers are priced at one 20th over there, the games need to be equivalent also: Approximately $2.50 for a game priced at a conservative $50 American. Now what software company is going to price their games legally in SE Asia at $2.50?

Not even Ubisoft!

So, conceptually large game companies are not losing significant income from pirated games in South East Asia.

Piracy in 1st World Countries IS a problem though. Let's not sing that down - I'm just saying that piracy is a problem within our OWN countries, rather than one to blame on the 3rd world.

I know plenty of people in my general sphere of acquaintance who own more pirated software than software they've paid for. My Dad is a shareware developer: the Association of Shareware Professionals (which is drawing here on figures only within America, Germany and Australia for this particular example: and seperately.) has come to the conclusion that when a crack is released for a particular piece of shareware, sales drop by an immediate 50%. From customers within America only! (or Germany, or Australia).

Shareware prices are usually quite low: $25 for a piece of accounting software, $50 for a complete set of photoshop filters. And yet because it's all based online, a great deal of people who are perfectly capable of purchasing this software simply download a crack beside the download of the 30-day trial.

More draconian security systems don't work. Steam was a neat idea (and still useful for a quick way to buy their software), but it makes things quite difficult for the customers at times, and it's still perfectly possible to download a cracked Steam version of Half-Life 2 and to play on cracked HL2 online servers.

Sure, there are a lot of people in SE Asia, Africa, etc. who play on these servers. They couldn't afford it legally - but there are also a lot of well-paid, 1st world citizens who simply don't consider the software worth buying, but do consider it worth playing for hours on end.

It's a difficult solution. Some companies have found a happy medium that seems to work well. For example, Epic Megagames in UT2k4 will allow four (for example) installs of UT2k4 to run at the same time on a local area network with the same CD key. While they're running online play is firmly disabled, but LAN play is available. So I don't have to buy four copies of UT2k4 every time I want play a game with my kids, but if they wanted to muck around online they'd need to purchase their own copy.

I like this idea - as it's pretty unjustifiable even in my economically strong country of Australia to personally buy four copies of a game to play over a local area network within one household. That's like demanding that I get four televisions so that my family can all watch a show together on Sunday night.

Anyway, my ramblings. Argue away, gentlemen.

Cheers,
Junko 'Kimura' Ifurita

----

irR4tiOn4L
05-24-2005, 07:40 PM
Very good points Junko. I also live in Australia, and software is very affordable here compared to what others have been talking about.

Nevertheless, its worth noting that according to that study the rates in 1st world countries such as the UK, America, Australia, Germany etc are between 20%-30%. America, where the rate is 23%, also has the highest proportion of its citizens who live below the poverty line in the first world - 19%. Australia happens to be second, with 17%. UK and Germany are quite a bit lower in this regard - somewhere around 10%. Yet piracy is lowest in the US and higher in the UK germany and Australia - it seems that within first world countries there is little correlation between the proportion of people living below the poverty line and piracy - likely those below the poverty line cannot afford computers to play on.

Thus it would seem that piracy rates in the first world have little to do with not being able to afford games - there must be some other more important factors.

Jaws2002
05-24-2005, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by fherathras:
Zimbabwe has computers? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


i think they still have it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Aaron_GT
05-25-2005, 01:19 AM
yes, it is harder to learn

The best of applications available on Linux are as good as ones available on Windows. For general users I think the only clear winners are MS Project (which can also be infuriating!) and Visio (which is great). Windows Media 10 is pretty nice too, but Juk and Amarok are pretty close, and equal Windows Media 9. The only other real deficit is needing to partially roll your own DVD playing software due to the DeCSS issue.

Pirschjaeger
05-25-2005, 02:34 AM
Hi Junko,

I can agree with everything you said with acception to the sweat shops and cheap monster pcs.

I've been in Beijing for 5 years now and have plenty of friends who are "computer geeks" by profession. They range from IT specialists the game engine developers. They can find the lowest prices possible in China on hardware. It's a very competetive marlet here.

I am running a very old system(P3,933mhz,786mb ram, Geforce2). Four years ago I paid, at discount prices, about $1500.00 US. Today, to build a mosnter pc I need to spend atleast $1500.00 US. While I was in Germany this last winter I found I could build the same monster pc for slightly less.

As for sweat shops, no. Atleast not in the hardware industry. China is very keen on taking over the market in the future and their hradware manufacturing facilities are clean enough for an open heart transplant. They are usually joint-venture companies.

As for sweat shops, I think they are quite limited to uneducated labour, such as what is needed for clothing and such.

Fritz

OldMan____
05-25-2005, 05:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by OldMan____:
I don't know how law is in all countries, but here ifa software is not sold in the country, it is NO crime to get an ilegal copy of it for PERSONAL use.



You're not a lawyer for sure Smile

The licence agreements even prohibit us from making a safety copy of the disk for OURSELVES.

Yeap npt a lawyer. But at end of my graduation I made a big research on this for a lecture I had to give and I am friend of ALL software inspectors at my State.


You are mixing oranges with bananas.. an end user agreement is only valid, and only applies to the one who bought the software. Piracy is ruled by laws and not end user regulations, and as I said I have direct information that it is NO PIRACY to use an ilegal copy of an software for personal use if it is not sold here. You cannot explore it comercially. But for example if a student needs a specific CAD program that is not sold to phisical persona in Brazil... it cannot be sued if he uses an ilegal copy. To sue him the company would need to prove that the software is readly avaliable for legal purcahse.


By the way.. the standard EULA used in USA is not even valid here since it go against a few topics in uor federal laws.

rnzoli
05-25-2005, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
Yeap npt a lawyer. But at end of my graduation I made a big research on this for a lecture I had to give and I am friend of ALL software inspectors at my State.

Sorry! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif You ARE almost a lawyer!

Thank you for the detailed argumentation, I understand now much better what you meant. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JunkoIfurita
05-25-2005, 05:59 PM
As for sweat shops, no. Atleast not in the hardware industry. China is very keen on taking over the market in the future and their hradware manufacturing facilities are clean enough for an open heart transplant. They are usually joint-venture companies.

Point well made - sorry for making a bit of a broad generalisation there (this sort of discussion tends to encourage that...gotta keep tabs on myself!)

China's economy has been on a steep boom for a while now, and for good reason - their industry and products are of a high quality, these days. However, I would be interested in seeing the percentage of the population living below the poverty line - after all, even though China's economy is projected to surpass the US before too long, the public money still has to be spread over a much greater population.

On an unrelated note - do you read Science Fiction World? (Chinese SF mag) I'm in the process of selling a couple of stories to them, since I had a chat to their editor when he visited Australia a couple of months ago. Nice bloke http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (Bit of a shameless plug there).

----

JunkoIfurita
05-25-2005, 06:25 PM
Very good points Junko. I also live in Australia, and software is very affordable here compared to what others have been talking about.

Nevertheless, its worth noting that according to that study the rates in 1st world countries such as the UK, America, Australia, Germany etc are between 20%-30%. America, where the rate is 23%, also has the highest proportion of its citizens who live below the poverty line in the first world - 19%. Australia happens to be second, with 17%. UK and Germany are quite a bit lower in this regard - somewhere around 10%. Yet piracy is lowest in the US and higher in the UK germany and Australia - it seems that within first world countries there is little correlation between the proportion of people living below the poverty line and piracy - likely those below the poverty line cannot afford computers to play on.

Thus it would seem that piracy rates in the first world have little to do with not being able to afford games - there must be some other more important factors.

Good points: my speculation as to the USA is that there is a larger gap between the below-the-poverty line class and the common upper-middle class. There are those who definitely can't afford computers, and those who can easily. The band of people who can 'just' afford a computer but not much more is relatively small. Australia is slightly different: there are a lot of us who are above the poverty line, but not by a long shot (myself included: my fault for choosing to be an author).

That being said, I think Piracy in the 1st world countries of Australia, America, UK, Germany etc has very little to do with poverty or lack thereof. In my experience, a lot of people I've met who pirate software could quite easily afford it. They simply don't buy it. Don't ask me why - perhaps it's something to do with the relative ease of locating a crack.

Unfortunately, a lot of the 'justification' I hear is 'I'd never have bought this anyway if I hadn't cracked it'. Which is total BS. You've downloaded it, you're playing/using it - you've obviously got a vested interest in the software. If you can afford it, you should be paying for it, or not using it.

It's one of the reasons I'm glad I got into this series of sims. I don't have an unlimited games budget, but I earn enough so that I could never really justify piracy. IL2/PF has given me far more than the small amount of money I put into it would justify, were the Lords of Capitalism watching. I play the game, I fly with a squadron, I dabble in making missions and skins. Many, many hours (years) of enjoyment for what, a couple of hundred dollars input?

Pacific Fighters is relatively unique in that respect. I installed Doom 3, played it and removed it in under a week.

----

Sabla
05-25-2005, 06:59 PM
Regarding the Canadian law.
It is Not illegal to download it.
But it IS illegal to use it without a proper license....

jba

Pirschjaeger
05-25-2005, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by JunkoIfurita:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As for sweat shops, no. Atleast not in the hardware industry. China is very keen on taking over the market in the future and their hradware manufacturing facilities are clean enough for an open heart transplant. They are usually joint-venture companies.

Point well made - sorry for making a bit of a broad generalisation there (this sort of discussion tends to encourage that...gotta keep tabs on myself!)

China's economy has been on a steep boom for a while now, and for good reason - their industry and products are of a high quality, these days. However, I would be interested in seeing the percentage of the population living below the poverty line - after all, even though China's economy is projected to surpass the US before too long, the public money still has to be spread over a much greater population.

On an unrelated note - do you read Science Fiction World? (Chinese SF mag) I'm in the process of selling a couple of stories to them, since I had a chat to their editor when he visited Australia a couple of months ago. Nice bloke http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (Bit of a shameless plug there).

---- </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, there is a great problem with money distribution here. The rich are very rich and the poor are very great in numbers.

Sorry, I don't read any magazines here as they are almost all written in Chinese with acception to titles. There's nothing more frustrating than seeing a good title in English while the article is in Chinese. If your stories were to b printed in English I'd be more than happy to read them.

BTW, it's not a shameless plug; there is no shame in forums, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

blakduk
05-25-2005, 10:32 PM
With regard to the details of copyright laws in each country- we have to be very careful to note that legal precedents/legislation in one country may not be applicable in another.
For example, in Australia we dont have a 'fair use' provision. If we make any unauthorised copy of copyrighted material it is considered ILLEGAL, no matter if its for personal use only (such as wanting to keep your original CD in pristine condition). The authorities here have expressed an opinion that they will not endeavour to prosecute individuals that make a copy of this material for themselves, however they are technically capable of such legal proceedings.
The implications of the proposed free trade agreement between the USA and oz will have a major impact on our copyright laws as it obliges us to bring our laws into agreement with the USA (i cant envisage a nation of 20million influencing the laws of a nation of 250million).
As my great-granddaddy was an incompetent forger and got himself transported as a convict down here, i dare not risk prosecution lest they transport me back to the UK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Aaron_GT
05-26-2005, 03:28 AM
blakduk: pretty much the same in the UK. If you rip your CDs to mp3 so you can listen to them on your iPod you are technically breaking the law, but you are very unlikely to be prosecuted.

TacticalYak3
05-26-2005, 10:22 AM
Good discussion.

Let's take it to the basic and perhaps underlying issue - greed. It is what people around the world have in common; this uncontrolling desire to acquire more and more games as quickly as the gaming industry can release them.

Putting aside economics for the moment, if more gamers truly value their games, meaning that they were content in enjoying a few select games instead of acquiring the next "big thing" each week, then I believe folks could/would be able to afford the costs associated with gaming.

Maybe there is some justification with regards to different pricing schemes depending upon the market, and yet I personally haven't forgotten that gaming piracy is not necessary because gaming isn't necessary http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif - it's a diversion /entertainment, right?

Tact - "100% bought and fully enjoyed gaming rig" - S!

Waldo.Pepper
05-26-2005, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Sabla:
Regarding the Canadian law.
It is Not illegal to download it.
But it IS illegal to use it without a proper license....

jba

Sorry. You are incorrect. Read the link I posted.