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Dominicrigg
12-27-2004, 07:21 AM
Just been reading up on all aspects of the war in the atlantic and was pretty shocked to read that to all intents and purposes the U-boat was obselete by mid 1941.

Advances in British asdic (including better training) and the surface radar had lessened the two strengths of the uboat. Its ability to hide on the surface in bad weather and darkness, and its use of the depths to avoid detection. Also the realisation of the british that convoys were the way to protect the ships made things even harder for u-boats, in many months later in the war 1 in 2 uboats leaving never returned to port and many died on their first patrol out. In many cases more uboats losses were higher then the amount of ships they managed to sink!!

I wonder if this difficulty will be shown in the game, or if it would be too frustrating and will be "tuned down".

Although things did get easier again for a while afterwards when the Americans joined. A combination of having few destroyers (after giving most to britain) refusing to black out, use convoys or listen to much advice from britain... (operation drumbeat and other successes)

Im also suprised to read about donitz who many of you here seem to love, i thought he had a love of his uboat crews "uncle donitz". In the final months of the atlantic war he didnt seem to have much care for the crews he was sending to certain death...

The promised improvements he offered which would turn the war around were too little too late, with the allies being ahead of the game.

Within 2 months of the new homing torpedo being designed to sink the destroyers the allies had made a decoy to tow behind the ship (knowing a homing torp was on its way long before) and soon planes were carrying homing torps of their own amusingly called "fido" which could sink the subs even after it had dived.

Some pretty shocking facts all in all, no wonder 2/3rds of submarines were destroyed and most probably over 60% of submariners who served in front line combat were killed.

Dominicrigg
12-27-2004, 07:21 AM
Just been reading up on all aspects of the war in the atlantic and was pretty shocked to read that to all intents and purposes the U-boat was obselete by mid 1941.

Advances in British asdic (including better training) and the surface radar had lessened the two strengths of the uboat. Its ability to hide on the surface in bad weather and darkness, and its use of the depths to avoid detection. Also the realisation of the british that convoys were the way to protect the ships made things even harder for u-boats, in many months later in the war 1 in 2 uboats leaving never returned to port and many died on their first patrol out. In many cases more uboats losses were higher then the amount of ships they managed to sink!!

I wonder if this difficulty will be shown in the game, or if it would be too frustrating and will be "tuned down".

Although things did get easier again for a while afterwards when the Americans joined. A combination of having few destroyers (after giving most to britain) refusing to black out, use convoys or listen to much advice from britain... (operation drumbeat and other successes)

Im also suprised to read about donitz who many of you here seem to love, i thought he had a love of his uboat crews "uncle donitz". In the final months of the atlantic war he didnt seem to have much care for the crews he was sending to certain death...

The promised improvements he offered which would turn the war around were too little too late, with the allies being ahead of the game.

Within 2 months of the new homing torpedo being designed to sink the destroyers the allies had made a decoy to tow behind the ship (knowing a homing torp was on its way long before) and soon planes were carrying homing torps of their own amusingly called "fido" which could sink the subs even after it had dived.

Some pretty shocking facts all in all, no wonder 2/3rds of submarines were destroyed and most probably over 60% of submariners who served in front line combat were killed.

Hans_Koenig
12-27-2004, 11:07 AM
In fact in 1944 more subs were lost than merchantmen sunk.
Most U-boats spent their time running from escorts, not to mention planes.
Finding a firing solution to a merchantman before the sub was detected became increasingly difficult as the Allied equipment and experience advanced.
I hope that in SH3 it will be the same: if one doesn't like it, he can always play early in the war.

Yarrick_
12-27-2004, 11:34 AM
Of course, the problem is not with technology development.
The problem is in the high spheres of command in the nazi government.
1) there was planned for the kriegsmarine to be ready for war in 1945, not in 1939... and 6 years is too much.
2) no clear policy between surface forces / submarine forces, trying to compete with the two biggest and most powerfull surface marines of the world (england and france's) was stupid. No enough bismarks could be build in time. Also, cancelling the "german carrier program" was stupid, but understandable due to Goering's autarquy policy, where he did not helped both the Wermacht or the Kriegsmarine, giving no air support at all.
There was supposed that 200 subs were needed to destroy Britain, but there were never a 100 front boots available. The sub building policy begun too late.
3) the XXI submarines where to save Germany, but Hitler stopped its production in order to build more VII's. This decision made the atlantic war lost for Germany. Having another decision both in 1 or in 2 will probably mean the "German European Nation" nowadays.
4) If Malta or Gibraltar where destroyed early in the war, this would have avoided the Brittish & American troops gain any advantatge on northern africa by sunking german & italian merchants suppliing the Afrika Korps and Italian Army.
--------------------
All these things are to make you be alert of the true importance of the Kriegsmarine, specially the Doenit'zs seaman. After all, Churchill said "I was only afraid of the submarines".
And after all, the allied victory was not assured at all until the battle of the Bulge (I think this is how you call the Ardennas in english).

Dominicrigg
12-27-2004, 02:01 PM
Cool posts, interesting. The number donitz wanted was 300 though. He thought with 300 he would be able to strangle Britain and he did get 300 late in the war, i think 1943 he had them running. The idea was 100 in patrol, 100 being fixed and 100 on their way to patrol.

Also germanies navy was supposed to be ready by 1949!!! a bit late, but even then the english would have seen this and kept ahead of their advancements. To say germany would have won the war with a massive navy is most likely wrong though, after all their ideas were to build massive ships and these also were obselete pretty much. The aircraft carrier was the major power at sea and remember Britain ruled the sea (as it had done for over 300 years) with the largest and most powerfull navy.

Saying all that it would have been very interesting to see what would have happened if the germans had managed to get a true submarine in time, interesting but im sure not nice!!

In the all it would have been to no avail anyway, as hitler was so stupid, his men so blind to follow him (even donitz late in the war) they could never have won. The real turning point in world war 2 was the moment when Germany decided to fight russia. Their airforce was still licking its wounds from the whipping the RAF had given it, and during the war in the East they would lose more men and tanks then any other front. Its hard to beleive subs could have had any effect on turning back the Russian steamroller...

ashbery76
12-27-2004, 02:27 PM
The Soviets were going to reach Berlin no matter what happend in the seas.

SubSaint
12-27-2004, 03:08 PM
Hi there Dominicrigg,
I guess you have just started reading on WW2 in general or on Kriegsmarine. Enjoy your reading and read many books to get different views and analyses. I am going to try to comment on some points in your post. I am no expert historian but i love to read just like you.

1-) About D├┬Ânitz sending u-boat crew to certain death.

Sure he was well aware of their "sealed destiny". However there was little he could do about it. You already know that he personally knowed most of the u-boat captains and cared for each and every man aboard the u-boats. He was working hard to avoid the bitter end his uboats would face , while doing this he depended on scientists to develop new counter measures for allied detection systems and numerous advencements in uboat technology e.g. schnorkels. However, sadly, he newer thought about the possibilty of deciphering of the enigma machine which was the main communications method BdU used to send orders. Secondly , again he never thought about the allied surface radar could have 10 cm wavelength. With a 10cm wavelength it was possible to detect a periscope or schnorkel. Then why he kept sending them out? Because he had to. Once great hunters now became the hunted ...why? Just to keep a good number of Allied airplanes, ships, subs, men busy and to keep Hitler satisfied. You might say why he didnt just resist Hitler and refuse to send them? Anyone with little knowledge on WW2 can easily say that doing so would result in Hitler replacing him with someone else who does whatever he orders. D├┬Ânitz didnt want that to happen because he knew noone would care his uboat crew more than he did. Like picking up the lesser of the two evils i think. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

2-)About German Naval Build-Up and affects of u-boats to invasion of Russia.

1949, yes the year when Kriegsmarine was planned to reach its highest power having at least 1 aircraft carrier , many battleships uboats etc etc. This plan, called "Plan Z" ,could be a real success if only England and France ignored invasion of Poland.It is interesting that Hitler actually hoped to see that happen. Once the war began spreading there was no way the Kriegsmarine was given the resources as planned before 1939. Heer needed more panzers more trucks more halftruck more artillery more more more... So D├┬Ânitz was stuck with what he had with little to come in near future. I am sure you know how many boats were ready for operation when the war broke out...about 50. He did his best and with a handful of boats he really made the British afraid. Now, the point is although the huge successes of uboats early in the war Hitler never ever saw them as a lethal weapon. He was ,hmm how shall i explain this i am not sure, obsessed with medieval bravery (?) and he was obsessed with big mean fighting machines like Bismarck, King Tiger tanks (If you ever heard of RammPanzer _check out www.achtungpanzer.com (http://www.achtungpanzer.com) _ you might understand what i am talking about , really sorry about my broken english). He sometimes ordered uboats to do delivery missions , wheather forecast missions , escort missions ,all the stupid and useless things.

Back to the point, Russians received unbelievable amounts of aid (Trucks, tanks, food, ammunition, materials to build factories...) from the Allies. A big percentage of this aid was sent by sea. Imagine: Hitler saw the potential within U-Boats and ordered more boats to be build in 1939. Germany has nearly 200 boats in 1940. Again Hitler ignored G├┬Âring and ordered Luftwaffe to co-operate with U-boats (protection, detection of convoys, etc) instead of wasting valuable pilots and aircrafts bombing english cities. Within 1 year England is no more, starving , out of fuel. With no mainland to use as springboard USA also is out. Russia is without supplies in 1939-1940. Again Hitler makes another critical decision and attacks BEF in Dunkirk and Stalingrad instead of Moscow then moves on.

I know many things could have been different and i know i totally failed to explain my points in detail but with my broken english i just couldnt go on.

To Sum Up; Just like Rommel's DAP the Uboats never recieved much attention from Berlin in the right time.

Thanks if you read all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
12-27-2004, 04:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SubSaint:
1-) About D├┬Ânitz sending u-boat crew to certain death.

Sure he was well aware of their "sealed destiny". However there was little he could do about it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, he did do something about it. He made sure that U-Boat commanders got training or staff posts after they had done a number of patrols. U-Boat crews in general suffered about a 75% mortality rate, but I read recently that U-Boat captains suffered only a 25% mortality rate, presumably that was because Doenitz made sure they only did what amounted to a 'tour of duty' whereas the crews had to fight through the whole war at the front.

Dominicrigg
12-27-2004, 04:53 PM
Really interesting post sub-saint, and i have no problem understanding your points either, pretty wicked english. I havent just started reading about history, but i have just started to learn details of the U-boat war, and i find it fascinating, some really interesting points there.

Interesting what you say too beeryus about him moving captians, he did have a heart for some crews and moved the best leaders on to desk/training jobs. Surely this achieves nothing, in a war where your best captains are surviving and getting kills, and new captians are getting killed on their first patrol, what sense does it make to retire the best ones? You are still killing a captain, and because of the inexperience putting the crew at even more risk.

In one case, i think it is Topp or another famous captain, when he was moved to shore he asked for his crew to be sent to the south african coast and other areas where it would be safe. He knew they would most likely die in the atlantic. Donitz agreed to this so he obviously did care for some but i disagree he could do nothing else but send men to their deaths. He even knew himself how pointless it was and at one point called off the war in the atlantic for a period of time ( i cant remember or find the amount)

I agree he was a great leader in the first few months but in the last few years made some truly horrific decisions. To choose to send the uboats to try to sink the allied landings at normandy, even craft without snorkels was sending a man to his grave for little if any gain. There is a difference between fighting on and suicide. But i agree, if he had refused to send the men on hitler would have replaced him no doubt. But if he had tried to persuade hitler of the folley (hitler did trust him most of all of everyone) then maybe he could have used the subs for other duties.

Deamon-
12-27-2004, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Saying all that it would have been very interesting to see what would have happened if the germans had managed to get a true submarine in time, interesting but im sure not nice!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, i can tell you to what that have been leaded if germany could have managed just last the war longer. If they could have managed to gain the controll over the Atlantic then the war would finaly turned in to a nuclear war!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
In the all it would have been to no avail anyway, as hitler was so stupid,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luckily he was so stupid , luckily. Because the world would have ended in a nuclear inferno. Germany has lost the war just in time, cose the next country USA was about to nuce was germany http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

A few more weeks and we would have been toast!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
his men so blind to follow him (even donitz late in the war) they could never have won. The real turning point in world war 2 was the moment when Germany decided to fight russia. Their airforce was still licking its wounds from the whipping the RAF had given it, and during the war in the East they would lose more men and tanks then any other front. Its hard to beleive subs could have had any effect on turning back the Russian steamroller... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think russia was heavily dependant on the supplys from USA. By controlling the shipping lanes they could cut this supply. But again it wouldn't take long and the ASW forces would apply tacnuces. In turns the germans would have used nucs on their U-Boats. Imagine a nuc V-2 towed by a Typ XXI http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Dominicrigg
12-27-2004, 06:01 PM
Yeah it really is scary stuff!!

There was actually a sub on its way to japan with nuclear materials and 2 jet fighters (or the parts for them) on board. Luckily it was intercepted by an american destroyer! I have no doubt hitler would have had no qualms about using nukes for sure!

jensofswede2004
12-28-2004, 04:37 AM
the stunning thing is that d├┬Ânitz never had more than 12 operational boats at the same time at the site of operation. Most of the boats were in docks. Others were travelling to the area of operation and others getting home.

What do you expect to accomplish with twelve U-boats dispatched in the wide Atlantic?

Hitler never understood the importance of the navy. He made the same fatal mistake as Napoleon did more than a century before and turned against Russia without securing his left flank.

dizeee
12-28-2004, 10:00 AM
i recently read that the bdu hit its operational low somwhat aroud march 41, with 25 rdy uboats.
pretty interesting also is the fact that the "few" boats managed to half the actual amount of importet goods to britain in dez 40. that is idd more than just scaring.
the nuke question.... well ww2 offers a hell of alot of "what if" scenarios. general perception is that germany was about to getting nuked in late 45 or 46. i read that the amount of "nuclear ammo" was very limited tho, and some kind of a nuklear campaign over germany wasnt realy about to happen at all. another point is that us and especialy british scientists had strong doubts if a nuklear bomb should have been dropped at germany at all. they knew very well that in case of a dud, that thing would have been returned to sender. with a very high probabiltie of working. japanese nuklear capabilities wasnt regarded very high..

Yarrick_
12-28-2004, 10:28 AM
I don't agree with some of you, both the ones who say that russia was about to win and with the ones who speak about nuclear war.

First of all, if Great Britain surrendered, then the USA won't had entered the war, because there was no interest in fighting Germany, there was more interest in fighting Japan. And there was more interest in fighting Stalin than Hitler. There where the communists the enemy of America in the 1920's-1970's. Not the fascists. There was not much interest, I thing, in fighting the 3 Reich. So, if USA is out of the war, there is no nuclear war. In the late 1940's, with Japan out of the war, USA wouldn't have fight Germany, because Germany was about to have the bomb in about 1945, as it is said, and I think so. After all, Einstein's trainees where in Germany, not in USA.

And about Russia: with Great Britain out of the war, and without security in the convoys from USA to the URSS, what would have they done? Most of their factories got destroyed by the germans. And after all, having thousands of T-34's is not usefull if you train the crews during 2 hours before sending them to battle. There was moments where only one Panther or other German tank destroyed dozens of soviet tanks. I think that they could be won.
Maybe you forgot the reasons for the attack taking place when it happened, in 1940-1941. The reason HItler and the staff had was that the Red Army was in the middle of a structure change, reorganizing itself from the first to the last man, thus very vulnerabale. Stalind did not believe he was being attacked, he couldn't believe it.

HeibgesU999
12-28-2004, 03:18 PM
By the time Doenitz got his 300 subs he needed 900.

The Russians moved the vast majority of their factories beyond the Ural Mountains. It is hightly doubtful Germany could have defeated Russia even if they had little or no support from England and America.

The Germans were in a war for their survival against everyone, so Doenitz had no choice but to keep sending out the uboats. It saved the lives of countless German civilians who would have been bombed by the planes searching for the uboats.

Russian bleed the Germans dry. Remember, Hitler was in shock when he discovered that the USSR could produce 30,000 tanks, and said that if he knew this was possible, he never would have attacked Russia.

Also wrong is that Germany could have had the bomb by 1945. The German scientists had miscalculated the amount of uranium needed for an atomic chain reaction, and believed it was impossible for any country to manufacture that massive amount. The German development team totally misunderstood the nature of the chain reaction necessary for the bomb to release its power.

Deamon-
12-28-2004, 04:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dominicrigg:
Yeah it really is scary stuff!!

There was actually a sub on its way to japan with nuclear materials and 2 jet fighters (or the parts for them) on board. Luckily it was intercepted by an american destroyer! I have no doubt hitler would have had no qualms about using nukes for sure! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah scary is the right term, i tink. There was mutch top secret stuff going on at that time and what is top secret till the present day. The history that is accesable to us, have a lot of missing peaces and, as i belief, is out of the context anyway.

Deamon

Deamon-
12-28-2004, 05:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dizeee:
general perception is that germany was about to getting nuked in late 45 or 46. i read that the amount of "nuclear ammo" was very limited tho, and some kind of a nuklear campaign over germany wasnt realy about to happen at all.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As the pilots returned from their nuce mission from Japan. The president held a speach and said that he feeled sorry that the war with germany didn't lasted a few weeks longer couse they were a bout to nuke Berlin, Peenem├╝nde and an other place, i forgot whitch one.

Not a real kampaign but a final deadly blow to break german and force it too surrender and maybe as a retaliation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
another point is that us and especialy british scientists had strong doubts if a nuklear bomb should have been dropped at germany at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe but i think that not sciantists make this kinde fo decissions.

BTW: A buddy of mine told me that he knew someone who knewed a very old u-boat kaptain who calimed that at the end of the war he commanded a prototype u-boat with a nuklear propulsion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Deamon

Deamon-
12-28-2004, 08:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yarrick_:

First of all, if Great Britain surrendered, then the USA won't had entered the war, because there was no interest in fighting Germany, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No interest to fight german ? What do you mean ?

Germany was about to develope strato bomber that was supposed to carry nukes to the USA citys.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And there was more interest in fighting Stalin than Hitler.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I Agree that Stalin was a mutch bigger concern then Hitler and the nazi germany was even very important for USA because it counter ballanced the commi threat in Europe and posed a major obstacle on it's way to the world counqer.

But at that time the nazi germany started to expand very quickly and had alot of success at the beginning.

And if USA wasn't interested in fighting germany then why it have supported Russia ?

And facing the upcomming nuklear threat from germany USA had i think a very big interest to beat germany, not to mention that germany have attacked their coastile shipping with their u-boats and was an aalie of japan.

I think USA was very well interested in fighting all of this parites. It needed eatch in order to playout them aginst eatch other in order not to going to war self and on the other hand it must have to avoid not to support each party to mutch in order to not make a threat to it self out of it and eatch party was a threat. What a disgusting world!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So, if USA is out of the war, there is no nuclear war.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course if USA wouldn't have entered the war the Nazi germany would had beaten the brits and russia, grow to mutch and pose a to big threat to USA given their crazy leader and it's goal to dominate the whole globe. If that's not a reason to fight it than i don't know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
In the late 1940's, with Japan out of the war, USA wouldn't have fight Germany, because Germany was about to have the bomb in about 1945, as it is said, and I think so.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think if germany was about to get nukes then it should be defeated quickly before it could get them finaly. Couse then the war would be indeed over.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And about Russia: with Great Britain out of the war, and without security in the convoys from USA to the URSS, what would have they done?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, without the support they would probable have loosed in the long term. And that USA had supported both shows how mutch it was interested to fight germany. Couse why did it then supported russia ?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And after all, having thousands of T-34's is not usefull if you train the crews during 2 hours before sending them to battle. There was moments where only one Panther or other German tank destroyed dozens of soviet tanks.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Basicaly the russian strategy was to drawn their enemy in their own blood. The kill ratio was AFAIK very unproportional to the favour of german. But given the huge quantity with whitch russia could come up with, it was a well working strategy.

Concerning the short training periods the soldiers usualy had. Russian leadership found out that the combat results were even better if the recruits were trained for a very short time. Paratroopers just did made a few basic exercises on the ground and there they go for their first jump.

This is characteristicaly for their whole training. Trained in this way the soldiers became even more tougher and courageous then soldiers trained gradualy. Basicaly They were just made HOT and there they go. no german soldier could stand a hand to hand combat with a HOT russian soldier.

And what they needed for their strategy were soldiers who acted very offensive, that overrun the enemy positions at all costs.

This type of training was maybe not the optimum way to prepare crews of sutch complicated devices like tanks. But given their very short life expectancy and the need of building up large attacking waves in a very short period of time, this approach was very appropriate, i think.

In this way and with a huge production capacity russia was able to build up masses of troops and simple flood their enemy, overerrun them, drawn them in russian own blood. This was russias strategy. For how long could the german troops stand aginst this blood tsunamis ? Cutted of from supplys, russia just needed to send so mutch tanks that the germans wouldn't even have enough ammo to destroy them all. This strategy worked very well if you ask me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
There was moments where only one Panther or other German tank destroyed dozens of soviet tanks. I think that they could be won.
Maybe you forgot the reasons for the attack taking place when it happened, in 1940-1941. The reason HItler and the staff had was that the Red Army was in the middle of a structure change, reorganizing itself from the first to the last man, thus very vulnerabale.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO, Hitler attacked russia because he knew it's just a question of a very short time, probable a few weeks, till russia will attack germany.

It was a preemtive strike, Hitler was forced to do. It wasn't a mistake from him to start a war against russia, it was just that germany couldn't have won this war in any case.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Stalind did not believe he was being attacked, he couldn't believe it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HAHAHA http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Stalin fools succesfully the people till the present day, hahaha. Commis are all Foxes and Stalin was the Fox of all the Foxes.

He was very well prepared for the war, i was shoked as i found out how well he actualy was prepared for this war and how mutch he actualy expected hitlers invasion.

And that he didn't believed that hitler steamed on his territory is one of the most funniest foxerys he ever did http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Stalin is a **** good actor.

The commies are **** smart in this regards they are so smart that they managed to throw USA out of Vietnam and this without supperiour airforces, without a supperiour navy and without supperiour tank formations. Arent's they smart ?

Given the poor airforce, poor navy, poor tankforces north vietnam had would you say they were prepared for the war against USA ? Was russia prepared to counter germanys invasion in russia ?

Your statment just show that you don't aunderstand Stalin and don't understand how russia conduct wars.

Indeed Stalin was better prepared and in expectation for the german invasion like no one else!

Now lets take a closer look at Stalins strategys and how Foxy they are. Everywhere especialy towards the wester boarder, were broad special operations in extensive preperation. Everywhere were hidden ammo, weapon, radios and other equipment and resupply storages prepared(mutch like the vietcong did), ready for a gurilla war. Lage formations of special operaton forces aka "SPETSNAZ" was ready to scatter all around and build up, train, equip, and lead partisan groups in to a guerilla war, in no time.Is this a sign that Stalin didn't expected Hitler fall in to his backyrd ?

Once the german formations would steam deep in to russias territory, deep in to their woods, deep in to their swamps, deep in to their mountains and deep in to their cold winter, they would be lost. The supply lines would stretch to far, overstrectch so to say. Depending mainly on the railways, how is germany supposed to guard their thousends of kilometers long railways while everywhere along them are partisan and spetsnaz group permanently blow up their tracks and trains ?

Remember russia can effort it to allow an enemy to fall deep in to the teritory of it(germany not), since russia has sutch a far stretched territory.

Once they move deep in to it then the spetsnaz support resupply cutting of trap would snap, the Winter would freez the troops and then this huge production capacity of russia and the support from USA, with it's very short training period for their troops they can come up with huge formations and drawn the invaders.

How is germany supposed to win this kampaign ?

Do you still think Stalin didn't believed that germanys tank formations steamed on to russians territory ?

Hahahaha, Stalin is the bigest Fox of all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Did you noticed that Stalin have never punished thous who reported to him that the germans have invadet russia ? Given the cruelty of his regime don't you think that he would hardly punish thous who make sutch incredebly fals reports ? If he would realy believ that this reports are fals, wouldn't he suspect thous who give this fals reports, to colaborate with the enemy ? Remember under his regiime you were suspected to colaborate with the enemy just because you were a prisoner of them. And what do you think would have happened to them then ? go figure.

Anyway, an interesting discussion.If you want to learn more about russias and especialy Stalins Foxines and want to know more about this partisan war and more then i would highly suggest you to read Victor Suvorovs books, it's a real eye opener!

Deamon

Deamon-
12-28-2004, 09:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:

The Russians moved the vast majority of their factories beyond the Ural Mountains. It is hightly doubtful Germany could have defeated Russia even if they had little or no support from England and America.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, in order to thrust deeper in to russias territory, germany would need local supply so that they become independant on the thousands of kilometers long railway supply lines, not to mention the need for larger troops. If then they could win only in the long term and only if they could manage to win the control over the sealines and cut of russia and britain from any support.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The Germans were in a war for their survival against everyone, so Doenitz had no choice but to keep sending out the uboats. It saved the lives of countless German civilians who would have been bombed by the planes searching for the uboats.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, even if Hitler wouldn't have made all thous mistakes, germany couldn't have win against the rest of the world anyway.

Deamon

Yarrick_
12-30-2004, 01:16 PM
Yes, it can be that I don't understand Stalin's strategy, and so on, but you don't understand Hitler's strategy. You should read more about this subject. The fact is I think both of them where fools (inteligent fools, of course) but this doesn't matter. I don't want to further discuss this subject.

I simply don't agree with you. You overestimate the URSS. You must meet some russian and ask him what he thinks about the actual Russia, etc.

HeibgesU999
12-30-2004, 04:00 PM
Stalin had something of a nervous breakdown after the start of the German invasion. He disappeared for like 6 weeks.

Shark022
12-31-2004, 09:19 AM
I too have read about the Battle of the Atlantic. Where did all these merchants with deck guns come from? In SS2 it seemed too many merchants had them. The escorts always found you! Asdic was not an exact science! Yet, I could lie quietly on the bottom and yet always be found by the escorts especially when the time was sped up to 8X. Music! Where is our music? Gone are the days of Aces of the Deep and our record players. I would like to hear my music ÔÔéČ┼ôDeutschland uber alles" and "Heil Deutschland deutschland" when I sail into battle!

I just hope the game isn't rigged against the player like SS2.
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