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View Full Version : Cultural/Religious Diversity - double edged sword?



roybaty
02-18-2008, 06:27 PM
Clearly the human race can't deal with diversity, perhaps one way of thought totally crushing all others is the only way to maintain stability.

Me being agnostic, I of course say may beliefs (or lack thereof) should be the one way. But we don't have enough power or will to crush everything else.

It's a simplistic way to think admittedly people always bicker over difference and the bickering turns into a street fight, into a riot, into terrorism, civil war...etc.

But then again a culturally homogeneous society would eventually breakdown with time and fracture...again...rinse...repeat.

I dunno, I think too much...being a thinking man sucks sometimes.

Back to posting female bodybuilders in the Babes thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Airmail109
02-18-2008, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by roybaty:
I wonder http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I used to be a bleeding heart liberal, but I'm asking the same question.

It's hard as sometimes various cultures have managed to co-exist peacefully. Example the middle east before a small minority started messing with things. Real shame.

roybaty
02-18-2008, 06:36 PM
I used to be conservative...but the "system" actually helped me as a kid, go figure.

I do consider myself a liberal with common sense though.

foxyboy1964
02-18-2008, 07:03 PM
Trade is usually the common ground that helps different groups get along. But the current world situation is pushing that theory to it's limits.

It is a real shame. When you think of the technology that is available and how it could improve everyone's lot. You've got to wonder if the human race is ever going to learn.

SeaFireLIV
02-18-2008, 07:10 PM
How life changes people, eh?

I started off as a wide-eyed student going to college. i got sucked into all that Liberal jazz about freedom for everything, all the `isms` to the point of ridiculous until I couldn`t go to the toilet without wondering if I was breaking some `ism` (usually feminism).

Then I went to work, in the REAL world. i got married in the REAL world.

I`m no longer a `liberal` in the true sense of the word. Sometimes I shock myself with what I say about certain issues. I`m definitely a more right of centre than I ever was. It`s not that I want to be, it`s simply that REALITY tells the truth and it`s better to live the truth and understand our differences than live a lie and try to be one homogenous blob. Yes, we must get along, because contiunous war is ruinous for everyone, but we must not allow stupidty for the sake of stuff like political correctness get in the way.

I was talking to my m8s and we actually came to the conclusion after a long talk over some beers that the people actually need a Benevolent dictater, not Democracy, which is basically an illusion anyway. That was the conclusion...

Shocking, eh?



Sigh.. the SeafireLIV of 16 years ago would be shocked by the seafireLIV of today. It`s funny, artists are supposed to be more Liberal (and I am in my art), but not in a lot of my views.

But the SeafireLIV of today is a lot more realistic and understands the truth of Human beings far better than he used to.

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-18-2008, 07:15 PM
Same here Seafire - I often catch myself saying "Did I just say that?" recently. Years ago I'd have been manning the barricades, or at least distributing pamphlets.

roybaty
02-18-2008, 07:25 PM
A dictatorial system can be horrific as well, you may a a benevolent one for a time, but after them who? You could be stuck with a tyrant for decades destroying all their predecessor had done. This would again create decent, instability, war, etc.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

SeaFireLIV
02-18-2008, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by roybaty:
A dictatorial system can be horrific as well, you may a a benevolent one for a time, but after them who? You could be stuck with a tyrant for decades destroying all their predecessor had done. This would again create declension, instability, war, etc.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Of course, it`s a 2-edged sword. You could put laws in place saying that each subsequent dicatater would have to keep to basic rules (no genocide, no taking advantage of people for personal gain etc), only make the rules that will allow people to get on with their lives without constant conflict. But of course, a new dictater could simply change the rules.

Of course, a lot of people would fight a benevolent dictater too, simply because they don`t like their `freedoms` being curtailed, even if it was good for them. This means, more soldiers, more police, more harsh punishments.

There`s simply no easy answer. And that`s why this sort of thing would need someone prepared to make the harsh stands that would be necessary.

If that`s not acceptable, then we must live with the chaotic nature of `freedom` (I put freedom in quotation marks cos there`s really no such thing in Humanity, true freedom = Total Chaos) and hope mankind survives it and we don`t end up with something worse in the long run.


No easy answer, except perhaps... religion?

Christianity, for example is NOT a democracy. It understands that there must be rules and order. God is, in fact, a dictater... a Benevolent dictater we were talking about. Perhaps that`s the way? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Interesting...

foxyboy1964
02-18-2008, 07:41 PM
I think we're all pretty liberal until it's our way of life that's under threat. I honestly can't tell if it's just me getting older or if things in Britain really are changing drastically.

Up until about ten years ago I thought the country was fine the way it was. Sure, there were some things that could be improved but on the whole it was fine. I certainly wouldn't have thought about leaving. Now, I'm seriously thinking about emigration.

HotelBushranger
02-18-2008, 09:03 PM
No easy answer, except perhaps... religion?

No.

ffb
02-18-2008, 09:17 PM
there are two things are fundamentals of all life.

Suffering and impermanence.

the only thing you can guarantee in life is change. Sometimes it may be so slow as to be unnoticeable, such as change in a mountain, but it is still happening.

Suffering does not have to be of the acute painful type, just unpleasant, and mostly it is mental suffering. Getting what we don't want, not getting what we want, even little things like rolling over in bed because the pressure and body fluids get uncomfortable from lying in one posture...it is all suffering


about time we got bored with it all and looked for a way out

Gringo_UK1
02-18-2008, 10:06 PM
Personally I see it as a case of too many people and not enough resources/space to go around, combined with a lack of open-mindedness and education. It seems to me that for every tolerant person in this world there are 10 bigots, maybe I'm just a cynic but competition for resources is certainly a historical trend that has prevailed since mankind first started settling into agrarian societies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

MEGILE
02-19-2008, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
I used to be a bleeding heart liberal, but I'm asking the same question.



Originally posted by roybaty:

I do consider myself a liberal with common sense though.


Originally posted by : Low_Flyer_MkIX

Same here Seafire - I often catch myself saying "Did I just say that?" recently


Ditto to all of these posts.

I used to believe in it all.

We all know what Churchil said about liberalism when you are young, conservatism when you are older.

If you want people to live with each other in close proximity, they have to abide by a certain number of principals.

Pirschjaeger
02-19-2008, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
I used to be a bleeding heart liberal, but I'm asking the same question.

It's hard as sometimes various cultures have managed to co-exist peacefully.

I've read about some of the problems the Aussies are facing with cultural diversity and a kind of tolerance that has seems to have lead to an unbalanced situation.

I think the Dutch have a good idea. In order to earn the right to stay in Holland one must learn to speak Dutch fluently and pass a culture test. I like this but think it's only the initial part of the solution.

Around Toronto there are many large subdivisions with hundreds of houses. If you go into these subdivisions you'll find people of the same background living in groups or clusters. This goes against assimilation. You'll find this in many nations, including Aussie. It may sound a little extreme but I think the government should set ethnic quotas on neighborhoods in order to help people integrate.

Also, for example, you'll find schools that cater to ethnic backgrounds and/or languages. IMHO, this only fuels prejudices and racism since a school devoted to language or ethnicity tends to be viewed almost as a secret society which like all secret societies inspire suspicion.

I believe people have the right to study and enjoy their ethnic or cultural backgrounds but like the church this sort of school should be limited to "Sundays". To properly integrate and build a nation so culturally diverse as Canada, or the like, people should be required to attend a neutral public school 5 days a week.

There's no good reason for various cultures to not be respected in a culturally diverse society. Why should there be groups labeled as "minorities" and "majorities"? The use of the terms only cause segregation. There should be a set of rules that apply to all equally, regardless of how many people represent your ethnicity of language.

Sometimes I wonder if negative results of the attempts made by the leaderships are accidental or intentional.

Fritz

MEGILE
02-19-2008, 02:13 AM
Assimilation is a dirty word for the uber-liberals, or so I'm told.

Sharia courts.. coming to a country near you.

I dont't know if any of you yurps know but the The Archbishop of Canterbury recently called for the implementation of aspects of Sharia law, alongside British law.

The general response was a resounding two fingers salute.

Pirschjaeger
02-19-2008, 02:15 AM
They can be assimilated too.

HotelBushranger
02-19-2008, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
I used to be a bleeding heart liberal, but I'm asking the same question.

It's hard as sometimes various cultures have managed to co-exist peacefully.

I've read about some of the problems the Aussies are facing with cultural diversity and a kind of tolerance that has seems to have lead to an unbalanced situation.

I think the Dutch have a good idea. In order to earn the right to stay in Holland one must learn to speak Dutch fluently and pass a culture test. I like this but think it's only the initial part of the solution.

Around Toronto there are many large subdivisions with hundreds of houses. If you go into these subdivisions you'll find people of the same background living in groups or clusters. This goes against assimilation. You'll find this in many nations, including Aussie. It may sound a little extreme but I think the government should set ethnic quotas on neighborhoods in order to help people integrate.

Also, for example, you'll find schools that cater to ethnic backgrounds and/or languages. IMHO, this only fuels prejudices and racism since a school devoted to language or ethnicity tends to be viewed almost as a secret society which like all secret societies inspire suspicion.

I believe people have the right to study and enjoy their ethnic or cultural backgrounds but like the church this sort of school should be limited to "Sundays". To properly integrate and build a nation so culturally diverse as Canada, or the like, people should be required to attend a neutral public school 5 days a week.

There's no good reason for various cultures to not be respected in a culturally diverse society. Why should there be groups labeled as "minorities" and "majorities"? The use of the terms only cause segregation. There should be a set of rules that apply to all equally, regardless of how many people represent your ethnicity of language.

Sometimes I wonder if negative results of the attempts made by the leaderships are accidental or intentional.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aye, in Australia to become a citizen you have to pass a test containing questions on culture, eg sporting history, major political events etc. I can't remember if English fluency is mandatory, I have a feeling it isn't which IMO is wrong. And, as much of an @rsehole (or Borg) I might sound, I my experience the only real long term, viable solution for immigration is assimilation. This means ensuring all applying immigrants should be fluent in English, and most importantly are prepared to integrate themselves into the wider community, as opposed to sticking to the safety of minority communities, which we have seen leads eventually to tensions.

SeaFireLIV
02-19-2008, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:


Aye, in Australia to become a citizen you have to pass a test containing questions on culture, eg sporting history, major political events etc. I can't remember if English fluency is mandatory, I have a feeling it isn't which IMO is wrong. And, as much of an @rsehole (or Borg) I might sound, I my experience the only real long term, viable solution for immigration is assimilation. This means ensuring all applying immigrants should be fluent in English, and most importantly are prepared to integrate themselves into the wider community, as opposed to sticking to the safety of minority communities, which we have seen leads eventually to tensions.

This I agree with.

If you come to live in someone else`s country , you must learn and respect their ways first adapting to them. Sure, live your countries` way in your own home, but don`t start trying to press your language, religion or whatever in someone else`s country. this always leads to tension and ultimately a blow back.

I`m afraid i would not support stuff like ethnic schools that separate people from eachother. Neither do I like it when i see an Church that`s been adopted into a mosque. How wrong is that? If a Mosque was turned into a Church in a Middle east land, there would be stonings! christians are far too soft in their own country. In fact there should be no built building of any other religion apart from that country`s common religion/s.

yes, and I know the British built Churches in other countries too during the colonisation, well, I say the same for us too.

Respect each countries`s ways (even if you don`t like it). This includes certain aspects such as the different culture for women and family in the Middle East, etc (which is not all bad once you understand it).

The West cannot have it all its own way.

Just what I think anyway.

HotelBushranger
02-19-2008, 05:00 AM
If you come to live in someone else`s country , you must learn and respect their ways first adapting to them. Sure, live your countries` way in your own home, but don`t start trying to press your language, religion or whatever in someone else`s country. this always leads to tension and ultimately a blow back.

Exactly!!! Now if only some politicians would have the backbone to have that as some sort of policy.

roybaty
02-19-2008, 05:39 AM
And we cannot overlook the fact that many businesses also support immigrants as a source of cheap labor. Hence adding another level of complexity, it isn't only uber liberals supporting a process that creates clustering and alienation of a social/cultural group.

It sounds horrible to say but I think the U.S. should go with a merit system for immigration, if you are poor and uneducated sorry. I have had conservatives even protest this point with me explaining that the U.S. needs cheap labor and no one else can do these jobs. I grew up in the inner city, I have seen plenty of poor American without jobs, here's an idea... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Okay I have to stop thinking, time to go play with computers at work.

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 07:16 AM
Accidental deletion. My sincerest apologies leitmotiv. I hit edit instead of reply.

Please PM me if you want to curse me out or something.

Again, I am very sorry.

WV.

foxyboy1964
02-19-2008, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
When I lived in the UK...

Until I read your post Leit I had no idea an American living in Britain would have to go through that. I knew you would need some kind of visa or something, but having to report to the police etc is news to me. I thought that sort of thing was based on your country of origin and I'm surprised it applies to Americans. I suppose the same must also be true for Canadians and Australians.

DmdSeeker
02-19-2008, 09:07 AM
In my experience it's not immigrants who are the major problem (after all, one may suppose they actually want to be where they immigrate to); but refugees.

Most immigrants aspire to something thier new land has, or they'd have stayed at home. As such, they're a better bet for assimulation.

Refugees, on the otherhand, would rather be home where they come from, and not only do they fight hard to maintain their own culture and inculcate it in thier kids, they're supported in doing so by the authorities in the vain hope that what ever hell hole they come from will actually get better and that one day they will return home.

And if we're doing mini bio's, I seem to buck the trend.

At 19 I was a shaven headed card carrying member of the British Movement. Last election here in Copenhagen I voted Social Democrat. Times change, eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV
02-19-2008, 10:05 AM
I missed whatever Leitmotiv said. Perhaps that was a good thing.

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by foxyboy1964:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
When I lived in the UK...

Until I read your post Leit I had no idea an American living in Britain would have to go through that. I knew you would need some kind of visa or something, but having to report to the police etc is news to me. I thought that sort of thing was based on your country of origin and I'm surprised it applies to Americans. I suppose the same must also be true for Canadians and Australians. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. They are members of the Commonwealth. American broke away in the 18th century!

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I missed whatever Leitmotiv said. Perhaps that was a good thing.

How extraordinarily typically ignorant and silly of you!

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Accidental deletion. My sincerest apologies leitmotiv. I hit edit instead of reply.

Please PM me if you want to curse me out or something.

Again, I am very sorry.

WV.

What in the hell is this all about? I posted the details of what I had to do while living as a "Registered Alien" in the UK. What in the world is offensive about this?

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 11:19 AM
Repost:

I noted that while living as a "Registered Alien" in London I had to carry documentation, and I had to regularly account for my doings to the police and immigration authorities. This never bothered me, but I noted that if illegal immigrants in the U.S. had to submit to these procedures they (and the American Civil Liberties Union) would declare this to be "fascism." I find this very instructive.

SeaFireLIV
02-19-2008, 11:20 AM
Leitmotiv, you`re getting excited again. Calm down before I have to get annoyed.

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Leitmotiv, you`re getting excited again. Calm down before I have to get annoyed.

A poodle tantrum, delightful!

SeaFireLIV
02-19-2008, 11:27 AM
Not the poodle rubbish again. what is it with you and poodles?

Better poodle than rabid Hyaena on heat, I say.

MEGILE
02-19-2008, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Leitmotiv, you`re getting excited again. Calm down before I have to get annoyed.

Hold down Alt+F4 until your computer explodes.

Guys like you and Uther skulk around here like you're constantly on the rag, and roll your eyes like someone just insulted your mother.

SeaFireLIV
02-19-2008, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Leitmotiv, you`re getting excited again. Calm down before I have to get annoyed.

Hold down Alt+F4 until your computer explodes.

Guys like you and Uther skulk around here like you're constantly on the rag, and roll your eyes like someone just insulted your mother. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Revenge is sweet, eh, megile? Look who`s talking! Sad wimp.

SeaFireLIV
02-19-2008, 11:46 AM
Come, guys, why the silence? I`m waiting for another `pent up frustration` ever-so-witty sarcastic comment from all three of you! megile, leit and Aimail. 3v1 are the odds I like!

SeaFireLIV
02-19-2008, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I missed whatever Leitmotiv said. Perhaps that was a good thing.

How extraordinarily typically ignorant and silly of you! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh and just to clarify, I was responding to this idiot comment, originally. Not that it matters now.

willyvic
02-19-2008, 12:43 PM
I had fat fingers this morning and accidently hit the edit thread instead of reply to thread. I was trying to reply to say that "Green Card" holders in the U.S. are considered Resident Aliens like, apparently, the U.K.

I will now quit while I'm ahead.

WV.

foxyboy1964
02-19-2008, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
No. They are members of the Commonwealth. American broke away in the 18th century!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Ahh, of course.

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-19-2008, 12:50 PM
This thread needs more babes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

roybaty
02-19-2008, 12:52 PM
Don't make me do it Low_Flyer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif