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Hfael
04-15-2005, 12:18 PM
So . . . last night's patrol was out to the middle of the Atlantic in my relatively new VII (some may recall that I was loathe to give up my trust Type II).

Approaching my patrol zone, I get word of a convoy just a half day south from me. I intercept them at night, torpedo a few, and slink away to reload. After a few repetitions of this I'm nearly out of torpedos, but still left with a few C2s, a small tanker, and some coastal merchants.

It's nighttime, calm seas, and as far as I can tell the convoy is only escorted by one destroyer, so I surface 4000 yards astern of the convoy, hoping the destroyer will be well out in front. It is.

I have the W.O. man the deck gun and give them the order to fire at will at maximum range. They go to it.

Soon enough, that destroyer comes plowing through the convoy (the convoy itself was still quite large, being composed of a number of 'neutral' American ships that I avoided) to deal with my pesky boat. Recognizing opportunity, I target him with the deck gun. It just so happened that there were two ships directly between us. I could shoot with impugnity because hey -- I didn't care if I hit one of the other ships. He, on the other hand, didn't have a good shot. For many minutes, I manuevered to keep those ships between us while my gunners kept firing.

Eventually he works he way past and steams straight toward us. It's night and we're facing more or less directly at him, so he doesn't have a big target. The occasional round splashes close, but it doesn't seem like he's doing much damage. So we keep firing. About 1500 yards shy of us, he suddenly stops and sinks. Woot! Awards to the gunners, for sure!

Anyone think there's even the remotest possibility this could happen in real life? I realize the deck guns didn't get much use -- but did anything like this *ever* happen?

Hfael
04-15-2005, 12:18 PM
So . . . last night's patrol was out to the middle of the Atlantic in my relatively new VII (some may recall that I was loathe to give up my trust Type II).

Approaching my patrol zone, I get word of a convoy just a half day south from me. I intercept them at night, torpedo a few, and slink away to reload. After a few repetitions of this I'm nearly out of torpedos, but still left with a few C2s, a small tanker, and some coastal merchants.

It's nighttime, calm seas, and as far as I can tell the convoy is only escorted by one destroyer, so I surface 4000 yards astern of the convoy, hoping the destroyer will be well out in front. It is.

I have the W.O. man the deck gun and give them the order to fire at will at maximum range. They go to it.

Soon enough, that destroyer comes plowing through the convoy (the convoy itself was still quite large, being composed of a number of 'neutral' American ships that I avoided) to deal with my pesky boat. Recognizing opportunity, I target him with the deck gun. It just so happened that there were two ships directly between us. I could shoot with impugnity because hey -- I didn't care if I hit one of the other ships. He, on the other hand, didn't have a good shot. For many minutes, I manuevered to keep those ships between us while my gunners kept firing.

Eventually he works he way past and steams straight toward us. It's night and we're facing more or less directly at him, so he doesn't have a big target. The occasional round splashes close, but it doesn't seem like he's doing much damage. So we keep firing. About 1500 yards shy of us, he suddenly stops and sinks. Woot! Awards to the gunners, for sure!

Anyone think there's even the remotest possibility this could happen in real life? I realize the deck guns didn't get much use -- but did anything like this *ever* happen?

Tiberonmagnus
04-15-2005, 12:49 PM
It probably happened at one time or another.

Imagine your sub shaken up pretty bad by some depth charges, well if its bad enough you would have to surface. If your surfaced your only chance of survival is either A) surrender, or B) use your deck gun and torpedo's if you have any. So, I think its happened at some point in history, but most likely the people in the sub would lose.

LordBane2005B
04-15-2005, 12:54 PM
I'm not sure about in real life, but I've had mixed success with trying to deckgun destroyers. Just outside the straights of Gilbrator(sp) I was accousted by a Hunt I and a V&W destroyer. Already badly dammaged from an earlier forray I decided it was in my best interests to try and flank speed on the surface to get to deeper water. (The current area was only 15m deep.) While doing so I manned the deckgun and started blasting away, much to my suprise I sank both of them taking only a single hit to the aft section.

While on the other hand, while passing through the english channel on the way home, I passed by a lone V&W destroyer. Since I was out of torps, I figured I'd sink him with the DG. NOT!! After fireing the first shot he began bombarding me with constant fire forcing me under the surface.

Jim0322
04-15-2005, 12:56 PM
From http://www.uboat.net/technical/guns.htm

Examples of use
Few commanders used the deck gun with better results than Reinhard Hardegen of U-123 did on his first 2 missions off the American coast in early 1942. His boat was of type IXB and thus had the larger 10,5cm version of the gun.

U-123 during a deck gun attack, note the merchant ship ahead

The crews had some problems with using the guns. There were several of barrel detonations, which killed or wounded some crew members. The reason was often, that they forgot to take away the muzzle protector from the gun.

Sometimes the gun was used to shell shore-based targets like in the Caribbean where they fired at various installations like oil storage's and alike or in the Northern Sea where they damaged some radio stations. An excellent hit was landed by U-242 on 10 Oct, 1944 when it shot down a Russian aircraft with her 8,8cm deck gun!

19 Apr, 1942 In the Caribbean Sea U-130 under Korvkpt. Ernst Kals successfully bombarded the oil refinery and storage on Curacao with his 105mm deck gun.


18 Sept, 1943 In the Northern Sea U-711 under Kptlt. Hans-G√ľnther Lange destroyed with the 8,8cm gun the Russian radio station "Pravdyi" near by the town Indiga, approx. 68.00N, 49.00E.


24 Sep, 1943 The same boat destroyed a few days later the Russian radio station "Blagopolncija" on the east of the island of Waigatsch, approx. 70.00N, 60.00E.

The end of the deck guns
After the massive anti-submarine build-up by the allies in 1942 and 1943 the deck guns were removed from almost all the boats in 1943 and 1944. A few commanders were allowed to retain them though, esp. the ones who commanded the boats in the Indian Ocean (the Monsun boats). But, in effect, from 1943 the deck gun was for the most boats a thing of the past.

Dr.Trespasser
04-15-2005, 01:00 PM
Tiberonmagnus, the U-Boat crew were courageous but not stupid, in all accounts I've seen when a U-Boat was forced to the surface and a destroyer was bearing down on them, they would scuttle their boat and surrender. The dammage model for destroyers vs deck guns in the game is messed up, in real life destroyers are tough things, many took Kamikazie hits, multiple bomb hits and sometimes even torpedo hits and still didnt sink, in the game it seems we can sink them with 20 rounds and blow off their guns which is ridiculous and by no means linked to reality. I doubt this situation ever occured in an emergency situation, its just asking for trouble, its a purley arcade situation. The only thing I can think of that might have happened is that a U-Boat torpedoed a destroyer and then finished it off with a deck gun, but I doubt this even occured b/c the crew would prob be afraid that the desttoyer is still dangerous or has called some friends.

nstutt
04-15-2005, 01:22 PM
I wonder if the ships in this game come in different skill levels - Ive noticed myself that some seem to be quite accurate and others rubbish at depth charge attacks and the like.

SwissSkipper
04-15-2005, 01:30 PM
Yes they do have different skill levels

Dominicrigg
04-15-2005, 01:51 PM
There were running battles between uboats and destroyers, i have photos of one in a book i have. Amazing pictures, if i get a chance to scan them i will post here.

Yes a u-boat could take on a destroyer as they had little/no armour but the chances of the uboat winning are low but not impossible.

Advantages
<LI>Small sillouhuete, usually only the tower to aim at.
<LI>Highly manouverable
<LI>Decent callibre deck gun

Disadvantages
<LI> Bad aiming due to rocking U-boat compared to a slightly more stable destroyer.
<LI> Less guns then a destroyer
<LI> Gun crew in the open
<LI> Any damage destroys the capabilities of the U-boat, most importantly its ability to dive.
<LI> Uboats were there to sink merchants not destroyers.
<LI> Running away is easier and safer

Because of this the cons outweighed the pros so in real life a uboat commander would not risk a gun duel with a destroyer unless he had no other option. If you play without loading and saving you too will start to play in a similar way to real life. You may win 1 fight with a destroyer but you will lose the next 4+, when you play not to reload this means you wont risk it.

The problem is because there are no repercussions (Which is good of course) we take risks real commanders would not.

In my forced fights with destroyers i tested (two fights) i lost both.

For a destroyer vs uboat fight read this thread.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=857101043&m=5071095803

Caseck73
04-15-2005, 01:51 PM
The amount of firepower a destroyer can bring to bear is impressive. I'm disturbed that the DD didn't open up with his 40mm and 20mm guns. If you see the footage of U-505 being captured, the DD involved just unleashes a veritable barrage of fire on the U-boat with 5", 40mm and 20mm guns. (And I think even some .50s thrown in.)

I've never heard of a sub to beating anything except a corvette or patrol boat. At least in a surface duel...

Oak_Groove
04-15-2005, 01:54 PM
Consider that the deckgun of a U-Boat was deployed as a secondary weapon against targets of opportunity, or as part of the Prisenordnung procedures to stop neutral or combatant merchants by firing warning shots.
It wasn't meant to slug it out with armed surface vessels, but for deployment when a torpedo attack seemed unreasonable because of the tactical situation, i.e. size or condition of the target.
Because of obvious reasons a U-Boat is not suited well as an artillery carrier, and generally it's inferior to surface vessels carrying artillery.

In comparison; a destroyer is a more stable weapon platform and has endurance in a firefight, which the U-boat has not. A destroyer can bring more firepower to bear at any given time, and needs less hits on a U-Boat than the latter would need to disable a destroyer. If a U-Boat receives hits in the hull, it usually means the end to it's diving capability and subsequently the end to it's mission or crew.

It would take a very careless, not to say insane, U-Boat commander to attempt an artillery duell against a destroyer. I guess the chances to succeed in a hypothetical scenario would be well below 1%, this provides the U-Boat "ambushes" the destroyer and immediately scores lethal hits on the command&control parts, weapon platforms and/or ammuntion storage.

HeibgesU999
04-15-2005, 02:27 PM
I have heard of this quite a few times, but only in the context of a crippled uboat trying to hold off the escorts for a few minutes while they destroy code books and combat pistols etc.

But I don't believe a uboat ever launched a gunnery raid on another warhship.

StellarRat
04-15-2005, 02:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.Trespasser:
Tiberonmagnus, the U-Boat crew were courageous but not stupid, in all accounts I've seen when a U-Boat was forced to the surface and a destroyer was bearing down on them, they would scuttle their boat and surrender. The dammage model for destroyers vs deck guns in the game is messed up, in real life destroyers are tough things, many took Kamikazie hits, multiple bomb hits and sometimes even torpedo hits and still didnt sink, in the game it seems we can sink them with 20 rounds and blow off their guns which is ridiculous and by no means linked to reality. I doubt this situation ever occured in an emergency situation, its just asking for trouble, its a purley arcade situation. The only thing I can think of that might have happened is that a U-Boat torpedoed a destroyer and then finished it off with a deck gun, but I doubt this even occured b/c the crew would prob be afraid that the desttoyer is still dangerous or has called some friends. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>20 rounds is plenty to sink a destroyer even in real life. As for the blowing off of guns, I think that's just artistic license to show that gun is disabled. Remember, destroyers are not armored. They have also been sunk by single bombs and shells.

HeibgesU999
04-15-2005, 02:38 PM
The problem lies in the fact it is too easy to hit targets with the deckgun, not how much or how little damage the deckgun does.

But this has always been a problem in subsims.

Back on my IBM PC 128k RAM playing Silent Service, and then on my PIII 400, it was easy to kill the escorts at 7000yds with the Manual Deckgun long before they even started firing on you.

To get the most "authentic" experience, it is best just to leave the escorts alone. If they detect you, then your attack has failed, and its time to make your escape.

iambecomelife
04-15-2005, 03:10 PM
I've read of at least one case where a U-Boat tried to fight it out on the surface with a destroyer. In 1942 the Canadian destroyer "Assiniboine" caught the U-210 on the surface. The U-Boat commander closed with the destroyer, had his crew man the AA guns, and aimed at the bridge. One Canadian sailor was killed and the bridge caught fire, but the sub didn't last long. It took a hit to the conning tower that literally blew apart the commander, killed several other men on watch, and pretty much doomed it. The Germans dove but got blown to the surface with shallow-set DC's and had to abandon ship. The sub was destroyed and about ten or so Germans were killed in exchange for fourteen casualties on the destroyer, including one fatality. A number of factors favored the Canadians, however:

1. The U-Boat commander was green to the point where he had never fired a torpedo in his life.

2. He chose to stay surfaced and idle in the middle of a combat zone and was thus not prepared to counterattack.

3. The lookouts did not spot the destroyer immediately.

4. The "Assiniboine" scored a lucky hit on the ballast tanks that made it impossible for U-210 to stay submerged.

Still, I doubt the outcome would have been different if U-210 had been alert or commanded by a veteran. Any surface attack pits the U-Boat's single main gun against a destroyer's four, five, or six main-battery weapons, not to mention dozens of AA guns, small arms, etc.

StellarRat
04-15-2005, 03:31 PM
Yes the deck is too accurate most of the time. I think if the sea was totally calm it might be about right the way it is now, but their isn't much provision for shooting to get worse in rougher water. If I man the gun myself I do quite well in all conditions because it doesn't bounce around enough to make the shooting difficult.

In real life I think the best the U-boat could hope for would be to hit the engine room and slow the destroyer down enough to run away. Even if the U-boat got good hits in and lit the destroyer on fire or started some flooding it would probably be killed before the destroyer sank. I suppose there is the outside chance a magazine hit or generators hit could immediately disable/sink the ship, but that would be incredibly lucky.

smokincrater
04-15-2005, 08:07 PM
I belive the german Subs had a stablising mount on their guns to improve fire control but even so it still would hard.I believe an American boat had a gun duel with two japanese patrol boats in the formosa staits in 44`.which the sub won(remember yank boats had five inch guns).I believe the skippers name Was Commander Ramage but I can`t remember the boats name.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-15-2005, 09:35 PM
I'm confident that a U-boat could never take on a destroyer and win. Any commander who attempted it was either suicidal or insane (unless of course he felt he had no choice - Allied destroyers are known to have shot helpless U-boat men as they tried to abandon ship). The fact that the game allows it only means that the deck gun's effectiveness is horribly overmodelled.

iambecomelife
04-15-2005, 09:55 PM
Another story about a commander who tried to deck-gun his way out of a bad situation...

Wreck of the U-550 (http://www.njscuba.net/sites/site_u-550-pan_pa.html)