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View Full Version : Il2 Series 1/2/3 - best early war dogfighter?



XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 02:14 AM
Seriously!

I don't know how well it would hold up against some of the experten online, but damn if it isn't an acemaker against the AI.

a) You can do endless low speed 150/220kmh turns inside 109Es and 109Fs,

b) gets up to around 550/600kmh in a dive of around 500/1000m, and keeps that energy for a long time if you manage it right,

c) engine overheats a lot, but cools down very, very quickly,

d) most powerful armament outside of the 24 blok i-16, cannons seem even more powerful though, and carry a ton of ammo,

e) Sixteen rockets can be carried on the series 1. Sixteen! There's also no real firing delay on them so you can ripple fire them off very quickly,

f) armored like a brick. Once a 109 sans MK108 runs out of cannon ammo they'd better run, and the 109F-2 doesn't stand a chance. Almost no chance of getting a cockpit kill, unlike the I-16 or I-153.

Was it really this good? From CrazyIvans IL-2 war diaries it seems like the only AA kills scored were on 109s stupid enough to overshoot and park themselves in front of the IL-2s cannons.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 02:14 AM
Seriously!

I don't know how well it would hold up against some of the experten online, but damn if it isn't an acemaker against the AI.

a) You can do endless low speed 150/220kmh turns inside 109Es and 109Fs,

b) gets up to around 550/600kmh in a dive of around 500/1000m, and keeps that energy for a long time if you manage it right,

c) engine overheats a lot, but cools down very, very quickly,

d) most powerful armament outside of the 24 blok i-16, cannons seem even more powerful though, and carry a ton of ammo,

e) Sixteen rockets can be carried on the series 1. Sixteen! There's also no real firing delay on them so you can ripple fire them off very quickly,

f) armored like a brick. Once a 109 sans MK108 runs out of cannon ammo they'd better run, and the 109F-2 doesn't stand a chance. Almost no chance of getting a cockpit kill, unlike the I-16 or I-153.

Was it really this good? From CrazyIvans IL-2 war diaries it seems like the only AA kills scored were on 109s stupid enough to overshoot and park themselves in front of the IL-2s cannons.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 02:48 AM
I don't know which campaign you're playing, but I find the Il2 to be an awful fighter. I occasionally can zap a stupid AI with it, but any early war 109 can saddle up on your six and shoot you until you die. If they're already fixated on your wingman, then you can sometimes get them first.

Best early war (40-41) soviet fighter is the MiG-3, be sure. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:34 AM
Don't underestimate the frontal brute firepower of the Il-2. this is how OTTO KITTEL was killed in 1945 after taking down 267 aircrafts on both fronts.


<<<At 12:06 hours on 16 February 1945 four FW 190 A-8s led by Oberleutnant Otto Kittel of 2./J.G.54 took off from an airbase in the Kurland pocket. The mission was free hunting over the frontline area near Dzukste. This was Kittel's 583rd combat sortie. After only seven minutes the German fighters spotted fourteen Il-2s that were bombing and shooting rockets at German ground troops from an altitude of 150 metres. Oberleutnant Kittel radioed an attack order. The Il-2 Shturmoviks were flying in a row, one after another, and Kittel attacked from the right hand side. His wingman Oberf├┬Ąhnrich Renner wrote:


"Flying at a distance of about 100 metres from Oblt. Kittel I saw him dive beneath and behind an Il-2 and attack it. Behind us two other Il-2s pulled up sharply. In the next moment an explosion was seen in his cockpit and the aircraft started to descend".
Kittel's FW 190 tore into the ground with its starboard wing, caught fire, and then exploded. Otto Kittel, victor in 267 aerial combats and the highest scoring fighter pilot to fall prey to an enemy, had no chance whatsoever of surviving. He was buried in Sabile/Lithuania. Otto Kittel was the top FW 190 ace of the war, followed closely by another member of the Gr├╝nherz Geschwader, Walter Nowotny.>>>>>

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:39 AM
Hoops, sorry. He was only flying in the east.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:09 AM
- "Flying at a distance of about 100 metres from Oblt.
- Kittel I saw him dive beneath and behind an Il-2 and
- attack it. Behind us two other Il-2s pulled up
- sharply. In the next moment an explosion was seen in
- his cockpit and the aircraft started to descend".
- Kittel's FW 190 tore into the ground with its
- starboard wing, caught fire, and then exploded.

Seems about right though - regardless of his experience, if you fly a BF109 in front of one where it can just nose up and shoot, it seems like most of the soviets were game to take that shot.

The IL2-I is the only genuine A2A variant, but I find it's less well armed - lower fire rate and less guns. The 20mm on the IL2 series 1 fires a lot faster than the 23mm, or so it seems to me.

I've played with several QMB missions and it's only when I start throwing in ace level FW-190A4s that I run into trouble with my trusty IL-2 series 1. Anything else is toast. MC-202s and IAR-80s are tough to hit, but their guns barely scratch you, and the low speed performance of the IL-2 is so good that you can usually force an overshoot.

I'm just amazed at how well it performs in the game - wasn't the entire flight model of the game first based around simulating this aircraft accurately? It's certainly a more formidable aircraft than any model of Hurricane in 1.11. IIcs are comparable in firepower, but not in durability or ammo load. The Hurricaine is now so neutered that it's barely a competative dogfighter in the early war set, or I don't find it to be, anyhow.

Starting with an alt advantage there seems to be very little that an Il-2 S1 can't take down. It's the AIs fault for trying to turn with it, but it's still a damn good plane.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:52 AM
He was flying FW-190 A8 when was killed

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:09 AM
What a brain farty day I'm having :>

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:17 AM
IL2 is certainly a good dogfighter but only in Oleg's virtual world, don't forget it's only game made by.....

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:26 AM
You are dreaming. The Il-2 is in no way a good dogfighter in the game. Even if you can get on someone's tail, it's only for a few moments while they're zooming away, and with a strong paranoia from knowing that _anyone_ could appear on your 6 at any time.

It only takes one .30 cal round in the radiator to start the process of bringing down an Il-2. It's tough, but without fighter escort they get picked off one by one. It is no turn fighter, even at low speeds. Planes overshooting you doesn't make it good either - on that reasoning the I153P is the best fighter in the game!

It's heavy, it accelerates slowly, it has low top speed and takes a long time to get there, and you think it's fantastic because it has manoeuvrability at low speeds and can take some hits? On that logic, the A-10 will be the best fighter in LOMAC!

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 09:08 AM
Now now, settle down.

Everything I said was qualified with

I don't know how it would hold up against the experten online

and

It's the AIs fault for trying to turn with it

With those two things in mind - yes, it's an excellent early war dogfighter. Would it hold up against online flyers diving on it and shooting the engine? Possibly not. Does it hold up against the way the AI flies? Damn right it does.

Go fly a QMB mission against Ace level E4, F2/F4, IAR80, Hurricaine II/IIB, G50, etc, and try and tell me the IL-2 S1/2/3 aren't just about one of the easiest planes to score kills with. It feels almost like the Hurricaine's old FM in FB 1.0 has been stuck onto the IL-2 series 1/2/3, and the Hurricaine is now flying around with the old IL-2 Sturmovik 1.04 IL-2 FM :>

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 10:27 AM
Okay, I've done some testing in QMB. The reason the Il-2 1,2 & 3 series seem so easy to kill the AI in I think is not because it's a super plane, but because the AI thinks it's a bomber and uses anti-bomber tactics against it. I'm not absolutely sure about this, but the AI just doesn't seem to expect you to try attacking them! I was able to kill the AI by shooting them at about .40 range after they overshoot, but I was not able to manoeuvre myself onto the hurri's tail - the only kills I got were from overshoots.

The Hurri II turns better at 180, and is still stable at 140. The Il-2 turns into a brick at 140. Both planes are very hard to stall. Hurri II-C has weapons about equal to Il-2 3rd series: 4 hispano vs. 2 VYa 23mm & 2 ShKAS.

I was able to run circles around an AI hurricane in a MiG-3, and while I never got onto his tail for long, he had no chance of shooting me down. Eventually, I manoeuvre killed him, but you don't get credit for that in FB.

Flying a hurri-IIC against an Il-2I ( the fighter version, so they try to fight instead of flying straight and level until attacked ), I was able to get on his tail in 2 turns, stay with him in a dive, catch him for speed, and one 1 second burst cut his wing off.

Flying the Il-2I against Ace Hurricane, I was unable to force him to overshoot. He just got on my six and slowed down with me in turns. Armour is good against the .30 cals & I took many hits, but he shot out my radiator and the PK-d me in the scissors.

So, I think the Il-2 is NOT the best dogfighter, it's just convenient that the AI tries to do high speed passes that involve overshooting into your gunsights. All of the real fighters in the game outperform it absolutely.

Anyway, if you still think I'm wrong, that's fine. I'll shut up now. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 10:40 AM
In a 1v1 the IL-2 isn't very good (I'll accept what you say about offline AI, however). But if you fly with a wingman or, better still, in a larger flight asnd get stuck into a big fight, then it can be pretty good.

I prefer the versions with the 23 mm cannon (think the IL-2 series 3 is the first to have 23 mm). The rate of fire is slightly less than the 20 mm, but is still much higher than the really big guns of 30+ mm, and the extra punch is considerable. It only takes a very few hits to wreck any fighter.

So, why no good 1v1 but good in bigger fights? Over time I've found that firepower and durability are more significant in larger fights. In a theoretical 1v1 an aircraft with a bigger punch and more armour but inferior performance, will never get into a position to use its heavy firepower, but its faster, more nimble opponent will get shots in and it is then inevitable that it will eventually land enough hits to kill the tougher opponent - in theory anyway. Now, in a larger fight it starts to become more likely that you will be subjected to some sort of attack, even if you can avoid someone latching onto your 6, someone will probably get a fleeting snapshot here and there. That's when the ability to hand out and take damage becomes more important; the 23 mm armed IL-2 certainly hands it out and takes it. (eg from another game, one Zero v one Wildcat = dead Wildcat, but lots Zeros v lots Wildcats = ? well, more even and a lot more dead Zeros than for 1 v 1 at least).

I still prefer the versions with the rear gunner as being more survivable - like it was in RL. However, it may be that the IL-2s are more nimble now and that might make the lighter, early versions a better bet than the later ones with gunners. I shall have to investigate that. I did find that my field mod IL-2 seemed to be almost matching a 109E in a low speed turn last night. It was a single occasion and he could have been damaged etc, but it does indicate that the IL-2 might handle better now.

Kernow
249 IAP

Hawgdog
09-10-2003, 01:57 PM
Bnej_03 wrote:
- You are dreaming. The Il-2 is in no way a good
- dogfighter in the game.


There is a flyer who regularly uses the IL2 Field Mod and will score kill after kill after kill.
If one my squaddies spots this they'll testify
StockAnt is not to be taken lightly when he gets in the IL2 the bahstahd....There used to be an IL2 only server somewhere in Europe judging my the time here and the language. Those boys could RIP it good!

<center></script>The original HawgDog, dont be fooled by fneb imitations
Vulching can be a contact sport
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
http://users.zoominternet.net/~cgatewood/assets/images/sharkdog.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 01:57 PM
Yup, the first series are very tough to bring down.. You can do endless loops in low speeds with this beast .. fortunalety it is not as fast as ME109s .. if you are fighting Il2 in slow speed turns you are good as dead.. That thing is surprisingly manouvarable.. However if you keep B&Z:ing them, there is no problem.. THough it is very hard to bring down with F2.. requires a lot of hits with that MG151/15.. I doubt IL-2 series were that manouvarable in real life, but hey this is only a game 8)

What bothers me more, is that it says on object viewer: "sixteen 82mm rockets. During its use, it was determined that the 16 rocket rails installed under the aircraft's wings considerably reduced flight performance and maneuverability.".. Thing is currently rockets do not affect the perfomances of VVS-planes at all, you can keep turning as fast as flying without them.. and they are way too good as AA-missles.. in real life they were fired in salvos.. you missed most, but hit maybe a couple of hits.. Like in memoirs of IL-2 pilot Yurii Khukhrikov :

"They were 82mm rockets. Of course, we fired them into the general vicinity. But at the forward positions targets were all over, so heavy was the concentration of forces and vehicles. A group would work -- one missed, another would hit the target for sure."

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