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View Full Version : Logic of all Kadish Puzzles explained *SPOILERS*



pat_trick
11-19-2003, 06:04 PM
Ok, so I know that the puzzles in Kadish are quite strange, so I thought I'd explain some of the logic behind the puzzles. With this mindset, you'll find that many of the puzzles are quite logically sound. Please be warned that the explinations contain MAJOR SPOILERS to the puzzles, so don't read on unless you want them...er...spoiled.

Reading the journal in Relto gives you a major clue about this age (i'll add the actual text as soon as i can).

Puzzle 1: This one is rather obvious; arrange the 3 patterns to match those in the Kadish Gallery in the order from top to bottom. There is also a small color on each of the patterns that it associated with each of the stations in Kadish. It is important that you do them in order, as each pattern builds on the previous one.

Puzzle 2: The key in this one is using the path that is not. When you light up the second, third, and fifth lights, you see a pattern on the floor that looks like the one from the Kadish Gallery. However, walking along this "path of light" seems to do absolutely nothing. If you look closely at the art piece in the Kadish Gallery, you'll notice that there are a series of lines criss-crossing the circle. Look for this pattern on the floor in Kadish. Then try to walk to it without touching any light. It helps if you do this in 3rd person, as you must not touch any lighted areas.

Puzzle 3: Once again, looking for the clue that is not. If you expose the floor to light, wait a while, then make it dark again, you'll notice that it glows. There are a series of tree patterns on the ground; this is the key. You must find only the tree patterns that match those in the Kadish Gallery and walk along them from one side to the other. (I'll explain this in further detail once I get home; this is just from the top of my head).

Puzzle 4: The 4 levers. It's rather easy to use them to get to the Journey that's located across and up from you. But how do we know what to pull to cause the next path to open? Once again, look for that which is not. From the picture in the Kadish Gallery with the rotating numbers, look at what three numbers are listed for that pillar's color. The numbers are 1 through 4 (if you need a primer on the D'ni number system, check out http://www.dnidesk.com/math1.html ). Then try pulling the levers for the number that is NOT listed for that color. Finding the hidden piece again.

Puzzle 5: What rule have we observed this entire time? Look for what isn't there. You'll note that there are a series of spinning triangular blocks in the Kadish Gallery, with a different pattern on each side. Copy down each of these patterns. The first button in Kadish is already marked for you. From there, look at the patterns above the number 2 pillar, and then look for a button that doesn't have any of those patterns. With a bit of trial and error, you'll eventually work out the answer.


I hope that this helps!

-patman

[This message was edited by pat_trick on Wed November 19 2003 at 05:17 PM.]

pat_trick
11-19-2003, 06:04 PM
Ok, so I know that the puzzles in Kadish are quite strange, so I thought I'd explain some of the logic behind the puzzles. With this mindset, you'll find that many of the puzzles are quite logically sound. Please be warned that the explinations contain MAJOR SPOILERS to the puzzles, so don't read on unless you want them...er...spoiled.

Reading the journal in Relto gives you a major clue about this age (i'll add the actual text as soon as i can).

Puzzle 1: This one is rather obvious; arrange the 3 patterns to match those in the Kadish Gallery in the order from top to bottom. There is also a small color on each of the patterns that it associated with each of the stations in Kadish. It is important that you do them in order, as each pattern builds on the previous one.

Puzzle 2: The key in this one is using the path that is not. When you light up the second, third, and fifth lights, you see a pattern on the floor that looks like the one from the Kadish Gallery. However, walking along this "path of light" seems to do absolutely nothing. If you look closely at the art piece in the Kadish Gallery, you'll notice that there are a series of lines criss-crossing the circle. Look for this pattern on the floor in Kadish. Then try to walk to it without touching any light. It helps if you do this in 3rd person, as you must not touch any lighted areas.

Puzzle 3: Once again, looking for the clue that is not. If you expose the floor to light, wait a while, then make it dark again, you'll notice that it glows. There are a series of tree patterns on the ground; this is the key. You must find only the tree patterns that match those in the Kadish Gallery and walk along them from one side to the other. (I'll explain this in further detail once I get home; this is just from the top of my head).

Puzzle 4: The 4 levers. It's rather easy to use them to get to the Journey that's located across and up from you. But how do we know what to pull to cause the next path to open? Once again, look for that which is not. From the picture in the Kadish Gallery with the rotating numbers, look at what three numbers are listed for that pillar's color. The numbers are 1 through 4 (if you need a primer on the D'ni number system, check out http://www.dnidesk.com/math1.html ). Then try pulling the levers for the number that is NOT listed for that color. Finding the hidden piece again.

Puzzle 5: What rule have we observed this entire time? Look for what isn't there. You'll note that there are a series of spinning triangular blocks in the Kadish Gallery, with a different pattern on each side. Copy down each of these patterns. The first button in Kadish is already marked for you. From there, look at the patterns above the number 2 pillar, and then look for a button that doesn't have any of those patterns. With a bit of trial and error, you'll eventually work out the answer.


I hope that this helps!

-patman

[This message was edited by pat_trick on Wed November 19 2003 at 05:17 PM.]

SwansofNever
11-19-2003, 07:08 PM
puzzle one: just input what we tell you into the magic box. no reason for it to be here in "real" life.

two: how is anyone supposed to know that walking on certain areas even means anything? maybe if we've seen indiana jones. nothing depresses or makes a sound or anything. plus, the lights do NOT look like in the stained glass, there are many extra. it would seem to anyone logical that you should be trying to make them look exactly like in the picture, but you will eventually find that to be impossible. and who says you're trying to walk to the center anyway? ridiculous.

three: again, how are we to know walking does anything? and why the tree? and there are others that look more like a tree than those you step on, they're just not in the spinning gallery pedastal (which is for a different puzzle anyway).

four: this one makes more sense. still a bunch of boring trial and error to figure out how some dumb pointless contraption works.

five: now THIS is a good one. excepting that you have to have a PHd in math and patterns, but nonetheless a good one. its just after the other four, how the hell are you supposed to know that logic is actually going to be a factor here?

summary: almost all pure bull. ruined the game and made me not trust cyan to be "fair" anymore, thus making me use a FAQ. keep in mind i never ONCE used a FAQ or even asked a friend or even read a review of Riven - i did that one completely by myself.

Gizzmo0411
11-19-2003, 07:51 PM
Wow...you want a medal, or a chest to pin it on?

Just cus you can't figure it out doesn't make it "bull". Just leave it to the experts if you can't handle the game.

SwansofNever
11-19-2003, 07:55 PM
hey, fanboi, read my comments on the last one. riven is considered by almost everyone here the hardest of the games. it made sense. the world that was revealed was amazing. the history - even religious applications, astounding. guess what, uru has none of that. most of its puzzles are totally removed from the world/story. journey cloths... the reward is in the journey... yeah right. hide and seek.

i give credit where credit is due. no bias. in fact i had postive bias before i got about halfway through the game.

ps - are you saing you beat the whole tree age with no assistance whatsoever? if so, i congratulate you. that is amazing, considering the puzzles do not make any sense and you cannot think your way through them, only dedicate yourself to hours of frustrating trial and error. does not make it a good game, however.

PS - your 'experts' who 'we' should leave the game to are just the elites of the adventure genre who know the levers that have to be pulled to get stuff to work in adventure games. so much for uru being a genre-busting game that all people immediately warm to.

and i did figure most of the game out (including more logical non-adventure-genre stuff like the fireflies, the moving stuff puzzles, etc) and i could have figured the second half of my last age out, but i decided not to. i was sick of playing cyan's guessing games.

CosimoDeMedici
11-19-2003, 08:21 PM
I agree with this. This game is very neat: the graphics are amazing, and the puzzles are quite interesting. However, Uru is clearly trying to be more than that. There is so much talk of history and lore through the game, but few attempts are made to integrate it into the actual game. The "disjointed" feeling leaves the whole experience somewhat hollow.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SwansofNever:
riven is considered by almost everyone here the hardest of the games. it made sense. the world that was revealed was amazing. the history - even religious applications, astounding. guess what, uru has none of that. most of its puzzles are totally removed from the world/story. journey cloths... the reward is in the journey... yeah right. hide and seek.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

pat_trick
11-19-2003, 10:46 PM
Thank you for the well-thought statements on the puzzles in Kadish. This post was meant more as a nudge/idea guide, but I am pleased that it is fostering discussion as well.

I have to agree that many of the puzzles in Kadish seem rather odd. The only thing that kept it in perspective for me was that the age was meant to be a gigantic vault to hold the riches of the guildmaster (who's name I can't currently recall). It felt like going through the age was like picking a very complicated lock.

That said, I was frustrated with the puzzles. I did manage to figure them out by myself, but I attribute that to the fact that I'm a Computer Science major, and able to use deductive logic to some degree. I found, however, that once I went at the puzzles with a different mindset, they weren't extremely difficult.

The fact that the age is a vault of sorts makes the "Key" idea more viable. Thus, puzzle 1 has its place.

Knowing where to walk on puzzle 2, well, you're not supposed to know. That is the point of figuring out the puzzle, and going at it with a different mindset. I agree that the extraneous lights made it confusing to tell if you'd set up the puzzle correctly. However, the lack of hinting sound or other interaction make it all the more difficult; it's protecting riches beyond compare. No one says that you're trying to walk to the center; you have to deduce that on your own based on the clues given in the gallery.

Puzzle 3 I never quite understood the logic of, and happened to luck out. This one is pointless.

For puzzle 4, it makes wonderful sense in that you're trying to climb up to the Journey, and then have to find the other side of the puzzle, once again owning to the duality of this age. It takes some trial and error, but so did messing with the machinery in Teledahn, trying to jump into the rotating crevice in Ghareeson, and attempting to arrange the crab crates in Elder Gira just right. Trial and error is one of the ways that we deductively solve a problem, and the way we work this one out.

Puzzle 5 does not require a PhD in Math/patterns. That's overboard. Once again, knowing how we look at what's not there for the rest of the puzzles, we can deduce that the same is for this puzzle.

To sum up, not bull, but difficult, for certain. I am sorry that it ruined your experience of the game, and hope you can enjoy it or other games in the future.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SwansofNever:
puzzle one: just input what we tell you into the magic box. no reason for it to be here in "real" life.

two: how is anyone supposed to know that walking on certain areas even means anything? maybe if we've seen indiana jones. nothing depresses or makes a sound or anything. plus, the lights do NOT look like in the stained glass, there are many extra. it would seem to anyone logical that you should be trying to make them look exactly like in the picture, but you will eventually find that to be impossible. and who says you're trying to walk to the center anyway? ridiculous.

three: again, how are we to know walking does anything? and why the tree? and there are others that look more like a tree than those you step on, they're just not in the spinning gallery pedastal (which is for a different puzzle anyway).

four: this one makes more sense. still a bunch of boring trial and error to figure out how some dumb pointless contraption works.

five: now THIS is a good one. excepting that you have to have a PHd in math and patterns, but nonetheless a good one. its just after the other four, how the hell are you supposed to know that logic is actually going to be a factor here?

summary: almost all pure bull. ruined the game and made me not trust cyan to be "fair" anymore, thus making me use a FAQ. keep in mind i never ONCE used a FAQ or even asked a friend or even read a review of Riven - i did that one completely by myself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

-patman

endeavor21
11-20-2003, 01:09 AM
Well hey, Pat!

What you said to me in class, about how the Age is all about what is not, made it make a lot more sense. I agree with other comments, since it didn't necessarily make the puzzles make any more sense. The majority of them were quite a stretch, and for a while I was disillusioned enough to want to throw things at my monitor. (Thank god for the soothing properties of the awesome gallery music...)

I think after laboring through something rediculous like that, one needs to figure out their perspective and decide whether it "ruined" the game, as some may feel. For me, I decided not to let it, especially after considering the entire context of the Age. It made sense, so I'm willing to accept that context. I realize each Age is a piece of some point Yeesha is trying to make (Teledahn and Ghareeson had great contexts too.... still workin' on the Eders. :P), and if I let my metagame frustration overcome that, I can't enjoy it.

In fact, this has kind of made me want to go back to the Big Cavern (D'ni ... like Hawaii is the Big Island? ::shrug:: ) and read more closely some of the DRC translated histories there.

Anyway, wasn't the guildmaster himself named Kadish?

Silent-Mobius
11-20-2003, 05:30 AM
I think there are 3 things wrong with most of the Uru puzzles so far, two If these come very much to the fore in Kadish.

1. Lack of feedback: Not "Ding 1 of 4 correct" type feedback, but feedback indicating that you have started the puzzle and you are at least engaging the puzzles in an appropriate manner.
E.G.
Panels should depress in Puzzle3, perhaps the panels shouldn't move until you rotate the light after setting a path. Puzzle2 needs some feedback to indicate you are actually achieving something, how about a low hum that starts when you stand at the "Red Point" and grows louder as you approach the center, but switches off if you walk on the light?

2. Lack of definate goal: Teledahn is The best IMHO for being goal oriented. But you do need a "Sucess State" that you can aim for
E.G.
Puzzle 4 has a good logical clue in the Temple/Gallery however after using the levers to get the to the far door there is no indication of what you are then trying to achieve, perhaps if the lighter counterweights and the rings that descend shook a little as you opperated the leavers it would lead people to think "Hey if that comes down then maybe I _can_ get up there.... hmmm maybe the leavers are like a lock as well as a way to get to that other room (Oh, also, I think putting something other that the handprint in that room would have been a good idea, as Yeesha is supposed to have added those correct? So what point did that room server previously? Perhaps a guard post there or something would have kept that area "In theme")
3. Football: I'm sure some people love kicking things around, but surely the point in Uru is that we are not playing mindless adventuring heroes, we are playing ourselves, carefully and cautiously progressing in the world of the D'ni. Last time I checked we had opposable thumbs that were fairly good at picking things up. I understand that you don't want people carrying things between ages. Why not simply have every physics-enabled object require two hands? therefore your avatar automatically puts the object down when they need to use their hand to link? Voila no Inter-age objects.
E.G.
I chalenge people not to feel like a complete fool kicking wicker.... things around Eder Kemo.

Gizzmo0411
11-20-2003, 07:29 AM
I will agree with those here who say that the puzzles, in some cases, were poorly implemented. Mobius you make some good points I'll give you that. However, to me, this doesn't make these puzzles bad puzzles. The logic of Kadish is, exactly that, backwards, in every way, and to make sense of it one must look at it in hindsight. However, I don't believe that it was complete trial and error. I believe that the patterns and sequences that they makers presented led you in the right direction. And since, as stated before, this place is essentially a huge vault. It sort of makes sense for it to be so difficult.
A second idea presented itself to me last night as I was lying in bed. While Uru single player has it's fun, it seems to me that the main purpose of the game is to prepare us for Uru Live. If that is the case, then maybe the makers of the game created these puzzles in such a way that it would force us, as the gaming community to work together to figure them out. Since I have almost no doubt that the Live stories will sometimes require 3 or 4 people to complete a puzzle. Perhaps it's all just training us a certain way to think. What do you think about this idea??

Cyberstorm24
11-21-2003, 05:57 PM
I am STILL stumped at the 4th Puzzle. the one with the pillars.
I've gotten it, that you're supposed to use the D'ni "numbers that aren't" for each color but I have tried every possible thing I can think of to do with those numbers and gotten no results:
I've tried pulling the levers, from left to right, each one, the number of times that number says (fist lever was pulled however many times the first number was, second one pulled the number of times the 2nd number was, etc...
The I've tried pulling them in order of the numbers, pulling each lever ones in the order the number says, from the number that isn't for each color, in the order of the colors, ((not actual number, so as to not ruin it) i.e. for 3234 I'd pull the 3rd lever, then the 2nd, then the 3rd then the 4th in that order.)
Theese two strategies I've tried AFTER having solved the pillars to get up to the Journal (leaving it arranged so you can reach the time) and with them reset at the bottom before starting the above attempts.
Each time I've alwo waited after completing the aboe attempts to see if anything happens....then tried hitting the blue button that resets it, afterward in case it was necessary to signify you finished entering your combination

Last but not least: most but not all of the above possibilities of what can be done was also tried assuming instead that, as you stand behind the levers, if you walk left some and then turn to look at the pillars, that it was meant to be the lever that moves those pillars, as I see them, from left to right. (i.e. The 4th lever from the right meant 1 since when viewed from that angle, it's the first pillar from left to right when viewed from their left)

So now I'm beyond frustrated and believe to have tried every possiblity...could it be a bug.

Sorry for the long post, wanted to explain how thorough I tried to be.

Cyberstorm

Cyberstorm24
11-21-2003, 07:24 PM
The above comment speaking of being bakwards and being viewed from the left: To better explain, it was refering to being vied from this angle.

http://www.CyberstormSystems.net/pillars.jpg

The levers are on the right side of the screen.
I'm assuming this isn't the right order of the pillars, but was just being thorough.

Cyberstorm

Rocky1138
11-21-2003, 08:29 PM
I'm confused at the logic of the last puzzle in Kadish. I understand that we're supposed to look for what's not there, but whenever I do it I come up with 1 3 4 5 2 6.

Can anyone explain how this isn't right? I'm looking for what's not there and deducing which ones is right.

cookymonster666
11-21-2003, 08:39 PM
Major Spoil

The first button to be pressed is button 1 (it says so on the button).
Button six has symbols from 2,3,4 & 5..so 1 & 6 are NOT THERE...considering 1 is already taken, the answer must be 6.

Get the jist?

FYI...2 isn't 5th......5 is 2nd...ya follow?

I'm sure you can do the rest

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Prinssens
11-22-2003, 06:24 AM
We managed to open the treasure room but somehow we missed a cloth-with-hand. We think it must be in the place with the six yellow buttons, but we can only find the exit. Would anyone give us a hint?

CuzinJohn
11-22-2003, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Prinssens:
We managed to open the treasure room but somehow we missed a cloth-with-hand. We think it must be in the place with the six yellow buttons, but we can only find the exit. Would anyone give us a hint?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's in there... just keep looking.

SoulAegis
11-28-2003, 04:44 PM
For puzzle 4 in Kadish, here's what I did: pay attention to the revolving numbers on the picture with the 4 colored columns in the gallery. The columns go red, white, green, blue. If you start with red, look on the revolving numbers for a D'ni number 1 (roman numeral 3). There isn't one, so you go for a red D'ni 2. There is a 2, so red gets a value of two. Then go to white (because white is the next colored pillar) clockwise. There is a D'ni 1 for white, so white gets a 1. Green (counterclockwise from the white) gets a 4, and blue gets another 1. These all added up to 8, which is the number of level pulls you get in puzzle 4. Now I don't know how I decided which levers got pulled which times, but it ended up with )from the far left), the first lever gets 1, then the next gets 4, then 1, then 2. Don't ask me how, lol, but it worked. If someone would like to show me how I pulled this explanation out of my butt, please do. Also, the Kadish puzzles do seem to have no real logic: without the gallery, you would have no idea what the hell was going on. Kadish is a great Age, but the puzzles tend to piss me off, lol. Now, on to number 5...

SoulAegis
11-28-2003, 10:48 PM
Saw how I did it right after I posted http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif... Anyways, beat puzzle 5 and I don't exactly know where I got those numbers from either, but if anyone wants the order... I'm not giving it to you, lol. It's too much fun, that feeling you get after you solve it on your own. I love that.

AeroBrain
11-29-2003, 09:18 AM
Puzzle 1 was a no-brainer for me... usual adventure game puzzle, with the key just in another area (the gallery).

Puzzle 2 I needed help online with... I had lit up the correct sequence in Puzzle 2, but just for some reason could not think to try a different path... and if you look at the picture in the gallery there is a red dot next to the unlit area where you start... I had noticed it before going online, so I was so close to figuring it out from that.

Puzzle 3 I needed help from online as well... I thought the 6 numbered pillars were a sequence for walking across the tiles... mapped the tiles out... marked where each symbol appeared on the floor... beat my head against a wall dozens of times... it is oh so clear in hind-sight now... I haven't used those pillars in any of the puzzles, and have no clue what they were there for except to confuse me.

Puzzle 4 is about pulling the levers the number of times that is not listed in the rotating circle in the gallery... Red was missing a 1, so you pull it's lever once... etc.

Puzzle 5, cookymonster666 explained... look at what numbers are not there... write them down... the right combination is not right away obvious, but it involves using just one of the numbers missing to make a correct order...