PDA

View Full Version : So I was mad enough to do it......



GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 05:30 AM
I purchased myself some coils and tried out some TMS hacks on myself (see my "How to make an apple of eden?" thread).

So far i've just stimulated my frontal lobes a bit and not setup for placebo controls, but my EEG did in fact change, the entire 0-4hz was eliminated.

Now, if I was to knock out everything BUT the 0-4hz band it'd be possible to use this thing for epic brainwashing - of course I have no intention of attempting that. Still, cool little hack.

Tools used:
OCZ NIA (for the EEG readings, it's a commercial BCI aimed at gamers that consists of a 2-channel EEG and some fancy software)
2 Coils (I used telephone pickup coils, same kind as used in the commercial "Shakti helmet" device that plenty of hippies use for inducing "spiritual" states faster - google it)

Software used:
Triathlon (open-source python software for the OCZ NIA, I used it to view my EEG before, during and after)
Audacity (to generate the output signal: 1000hz square wave)
All running on Fedora Core 10 linux

So there you have it, brain state can be altered by electromagnetic induction. Not in a handheld little apple yet though.......

Might try this again another time with suitable placebo controls (write a program that will log my EEG data and whether the device is on or off, but not showing me the results until later) and ask a few volunteers to try it out.

Until then, i'm going to just use the OCZ NIA for sending input events to AC2 so I can stab guards with thought http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Caligula__
09-28-2010, 05:43 AM
so... you experimented on yourself???

magesupermaster
09-28-2010, 05:44 AM
I can only say good luck.

It will be hard to find a volunteer for this project, with all the paranoia of brainwashing and "injecting" electromagnetic pulses into a man's brain..
But I guess there are friends.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 06:09 AM
Vx_McTavish_xV: Yes, yes I did

Not with anything that'd put me at risk of hallucinations or otherwise making me dumb of course. But the basic principle of altering brain activity I tested.

magemaster (why the "super" if you dislike people calling you that by the way?):
I know a few people who might be interested - I have quite a few neurohacking geek friends, and they're smart enough to check for themselves that my setup won't harm them.

magesupermaster
09-28-2010, 06:16 AM
I don't hate it, it's just that I want to be called like that and not the other way..

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 06:21 AM
heh, surely you could have registered the name magemaster then?

Doesn't really matter of course, just a bit odd.

magesupermaster
09-28-2010, 06:25 AM
I think I did but I don't remember...
I usually go by MageMaster or MageSuperMaster..

FrankieSatt
09-28-2010, 06:45 AM
I'm not sure whether to be impressed or disturbed that someone actually experimented on themselves because of something they saw in a video game.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by FrankieSatt:
I'm not sure whether to be impressed or disturbed that someone actually experimented on themselves because of something they saw in a video game.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

heh, i've been meaning to mess around with TMS for a long time now anyway, the game just inspired me to try it sooner.

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 06:54 AM
Stuff i've done before includes turning off REM:
http://www.aspiesforfreedom.co...thread.php?tid=18453 (http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com/showthread.php?tid=18453)

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 06:57 AM
And here for your viewing pleasure is my natural brain activity without any weird hacks:
http://bayimg.com/image/fajikaacm.jpg

magesupermaster
09-28-2010, 07:00 AM
Hmm, because I'm not specialized with figuring this out, could you explain a little?

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 07:03 AM
Not much to see in that screenshot, it's amplitudes over different frequency bands. Generally, there should be a very smooth pattern with only the odd spike when something happens (such as moving the eyes around or having a sudden shock).

In most people that should be mostly level if you're doing one particular activity. In my weird brain it's very spiky.

It isn't the equipment either, i've tested it on other people and got more "usual" results. But this spikiness is useful when using it as a BCI (Brain/Computer Interface). It probably results from my none-standard neurology (autism/aspergers) and practice of meditation over the years.

Keksus
09-28-2010, 07:23 AM
Is it just me who thinks that some AC fans are getting kind of ... creepy? Ok, it was obvious someone would build the hidden blade ... but now an apple of eden? A device used to control other people?

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 07:37 AM
Hey, it's not an actual apple of eden http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Just vaguely somewhat related in that if I used different settings and tricked someone already gullible to wear it then I could induce a delusional state in them wherein they would experience hallucinations that may be of benefit to me if I wanted to control them.

That's a lot of "ifs" and "mays".

It also isn't apple shaped, it looks like this:
http://www.shaktitechnology.com/shiva/God%20Helmet/2_coil_bi_frontal.jpg

My version of course is much cheaper.

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 07:37 AM
Also, I personally find the hidden blade rather creepier. That has only 2 purposes: showing off, and stabbing people.

Xanatos2007
09-28-2010, 08:00 AM
Pretty cool man. How exactly do you project thoughts onto others though?

Keksus
09-28-2010, 08:14 AM
Also, I personally find the hidden blade rather creepier. That has only 2 purposes: showing off, and stabbing people.

Nobody would look strange at you if you have some decoration swords on your wall. The Hidden Blade is nothing more.

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
Pretty cool man. How exactly do you project thoughts onto others though?

Get them into the right state after priming them with lots of hints about what they should see.

As I previously said, christians tend to see jesus - that is not a coincidence.

Xanatos2007
09-28-2010, 08:44 AM
So do you upload images directly to their brain or just put them in a hypnotized state and scroll images before their eyes?

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
So do you upload images directly to their brain or just put them in a hypnotized state and scroll images before their eyes?

heh, as much as you're joking, it is in fact possible to implant simple low-resolution imagery directly into the visual cortex. This has obvious applications for the blind and is old tech now.

It's also possible to READ visual imagery with an implant (as done in cats already). So it should also be feasible to do it in reverse at similar resolutions (since the signal format is now known, it's theoretically possible to simply recreate that signal).
See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFdZ9eGTG5A

I'll have to dig out the actual paper (it's sitting around on my harddrive in PDF format somewhere and makes fascinating reading).

In the meantime, i'll refer you to the other author's paper:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/...bstract/324/5927/643 (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/324/5927/643)
Basically, altering activity of a single neuron caused changes in global brain state. This is further proof of the well-known "leakage" theory as to how brainwave entrainment works (activity starts in one region and then spreads to others).

Account_Deleted
09-28-2010, 09:30 AM
try it on rats >_?
apparently their brain is similar to ours or even better

Xanatos2007
09-28-2010, 09:34 AM
That's pretty cool Gareth, I look forward to seeing the final result.

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 09:37 AM
You know, I keep meaning to get hold of the right stuff to play with some rat neurons (not whole brains, just cultured neurons), but the wife just responds with "eww" every time I mention the possibility.

Basically it'd involve catching a rat, and extracting some brain cells while still alive (to prevent ischemia making them useless) and culturing them in a petri dish filled with electrodes.

Hebbian conditioning could then be used to "program" them and occassional doses of glucose etc could be given. You'd then have a cheap biological neural net processor (vs chips like the CM1K which cost $200 per chip). Problem is they apparently only last a few weeks.

As for experimenting on a live rat - no, just no.

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
That's pretty cool Gareth, I look forward to seeing the final result.

I'm not going to mess around with inducing hallucinations in myself!

Xanatos2007
09-28-2010, 09:51 AM
Didn't you say you were going to use volunteers instead?

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
Didn't you say you were going to use volunteers instead?

Not for testing out inducing hallucinations - i'll ask a few people I know who are already familiar with this stuff to try out my software (i'll code something up to gather data and turn the output on/off without informing the user in order to control for placebo) and give me the results.

I'm not sure it'd even be legal to induce hallucinations in people.

Xanatos2007
09-28-2010, 10:06 AM
Only one way to find out. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Well, two ways, but this one is more fun.

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
Only one way to find out. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif



FIGHT!
Induced temporal lobe seizures
vs
Normal temporal lobe activity

(if you don't get the joke - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Hill's_TV_Burp#Recurring_elements)

Stormpen
09-28-2010, 10:48 AM
@Gareth: Apart from the epic brainwashing, can you actually influence thought processes? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Stormpen:
@Gareth: Apart from the epic brainwashing, can you actually influence thought processes? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

With today's tech it's not possible to directly implant particular thoughts. It is possible to implant simple fake sensory input to an extent, but it's very low resolution.
Stuff like this:
http://artificialretina.energy.gov/graphics/diag%2001R.gif
or
http://www.polymtl.ca/polystim/images/stories/images/stimulateur_visuel.jpg
(sources: artificialretina.energy.gov and polymtl.ca)
Implanting fake visual input is thus easy - I myself have considered a virtual retinal display (which is a noninvasive method of inputting visual imagery by projecting onto the retina) for use as a portable display, but found it to be too expensive - when prices drop though.....

Much more feasible is implanting suggestions with traditional psychological tricks and then using drugs or technological means to bring about the hallucinatory state. Of course you could combine this with fake visual input to enhance the effect.

If the end goal is obedience, bearing in mind the "victim" must already be slightly gullible, then it is in fact trivial to control someone if you don't object to hacking their brain directly.

Doing so of course may in fact be illegal even on a volunteer unless you're licensed. Doing so without a license and especially doing so without consent is going to land you in jail fast. Hence why any further testing I would do of my setup would involve asking volunteers who are already familiar with these matters to build their own physical device and run it on themselves (just sending me the data for analysis).

It's kinda obvious but bears repeating: using any of this stuff on someone else without a license is quite likely to be illegal, and without consent it is definitely illegal, not to mention incredibly unethical.

Of course if you're a member of a secret organisation that has some hidden powerful ties to government like the templars in the game and believe that removal of free will is a requirement for world peace, then of course the ethics and legality concerns are irrelevant http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xanatos2007
09-28-2010, 11:08 AM
I bet that VRD would come in handy for when you'd rather be watching something more interesting than a long speech or lame school performance.

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 11:19 AM
Indeed!
One company that was selling them wholesale only on b2b (business to business) contracts now sells portable laser projectors, which while cool are not usable safely as VRDs:
http://www.microvision.com/technology/picop.html

They might still be selling the chips on their own, but so far as i'm aware you can't buy them at retail http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

itsamea-mario
09-28-2010, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by GarethNelson:
Stuff i've done before includes turning off REM:
http://www.aspiesforfreedom.co...thread.php?tid=18453 (http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com/showthread.php?tid=18453)

You cant turn off REM! there such a great band!!
oh wait...

But yeah this is pretty cool, i've always been interested in neuroligy and psychology, ive always wanted to know how the brain and the mind work, sort of makes me wish i'd chosen psychology as a subject.

Stormpen
09-28-2010, 11:24 AM
I know about retinal implants, but that's just inputting an image into the brain, right? Though I suppose an image is all you need.

Maybe you've given Ubisoft an idea, Gareth. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 11:26 AM
I'll be starting a course on cognitive psychology soon.

Most of what I know about neurology and psychology, like my knowledge about programming, is self-taught. Unlike my programming knowledge though I would not consider myself an expert in the subject - hence the course.

If you are interested in psychology i'd recommend you go to lesswrong.com and look up whatever terms they tend to use in articles. Then I recommend you dive into the medical journals (or at least the abstracts), a lot of it is very technical (obviously), but you can learn a lot by simply cross-referencing with things like wikipedia.

Susan Greenfield also writes awesome neurology books for laypeople. Check her work out.

Xanatos2007
09-28-2010, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by GarethNelson:
Most of what I know about neurology and psychology, like my knowledge about programming, is self-taught.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

That's usually how you learn the most valuable things. "Information learned is more valuable than information given."

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Stormpen:
I know about retinal implants, but that's just inputting an image into the brain, right? Though I suppose an image is all you need.

Maybe you've given Ubisoft an idea, Gareth. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ever noticed that the new "animus 2.0" appears to have what looks like electrodes on the head?
Maybe they already had this idea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Of course the science in AC is a bit off. Genetic memory? Seriously?

Even if it hadn't already been found false (they used to think RNA stored memory, so even if that theory was true it wouldn't be passed on), it doesn't make sense. The genome doesn't have enough space to encode all the stuff we have AND to encode all memories of all our ancestors. Not to mention that there's no mechanism through which sperm and egg cells could have their DNA rewritten up to the last second (as in the altair vision in AC2 where you appear to be staying only with his sperm up until it's deposited).

Sorry, bit of a nerd rant I suppose....

The style with which they blend the sci-fi elements with historical fantasy rocks, but the basic underlying concept of genetic memory is actually less realistic than if it was a form of "time travel for information" (something that's at least theoretically possible as it doesn't violate the laws of physics - just requires loads of energy).

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 11:32 AM
off-topic:

Looked on google images to show you what I meant, and found this:
http://static.wix.com/media/185406f9082e983b32da4b07bae14ceb.wix_mp_256

itsamea-mario
09-28-2010, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by GarethNelson:
I'll be starting a course on cognitive psychology soon.

Most of what I know about neurology and psychology, like my knowledge about programming, is self-taught. Unlike my programming knowledge though I would not consider myself an expert in the subject - hence the course.

If you are interested in psychology i'd recommend you go to lesswrong.com and look up whatever terms they tend to use in articles. Then I recommend you dive into the medical journals (or at least the abstracts), a lot of it is very technical (obviously), but you can learn a lot by simply cross-referencing with things like wikipedia.

Susan Greenfield also writes awesome neurology books for laypeople. Check her work out.

Well im only in college now, besides i hope to try and become a forensic pathologist, so i dont think it would be very useful me filling my head with information i dont need.


..or atleast a forensic scientist.

extrememuffin
09-28-2010, 11:50 AM
im to dumb for this thread just tell me when you create a apple to take over the world

GarethNelson
09-28-2010, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by itsamea-mario:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GarethNelson:
I'll be starting a course on cognitive psychology soon.

Most of what I know about neurology and psychology, like my knowledge about programming, is self-taught. Unlike my programming knowledge though I would not consider myself an expert in the subject - hence the course.

If you are interested in psychology i'd recommend you go to lesswrong.com and look up whatever terms they tend to use in articles. Then I recommend you dive into the medical journals (or at least the abstracts), a lot of it is very technical (obviously), but you can learn a lot by simply cross-referencing with things like wikipedia.

Susan Greenfield also writes awesome neurology books for laypeople. Check her work out.

Well im only in college now, besides i hope to try and become a forensic pathologist, so i dont think it would be very useful me filling my head with information i dont need.


..or atleast a forensic scientist. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lesswrong is always useful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GarethNelson
09-29-2010, 10:39 PM
So...... who wants a high state of anxiety?
I fixed the "4hz spike relapse problem" (a fancy name that makes it sound more technical than it really is).

So, I have a device that can be used to induce states of anxiety in people who agree to strap 2 solenoids to their forehead at precise locations - any use in evil world domination schemes?

Sren001
09-29-2010, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by GarethNelson:
So...... who wants a high state of anxiety?
I fixed the "4hz spike relapse problem" (a fancy name that makes it sound more technical than it really is).

So, I have a device that can be used to induce states of anxiety in people who agree to strap 2 solenoids to their forehead at precise locations - any use in evil world domination schemes?
Atleast you dont have to go to the movies to get scared now haha :P