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BigA21
05-03-2006, 12:54 PM
Guys,
I think IL2/PF is the best there is for a WW2 avsim.
Maddox games has achieved something that remains currently untouchable in many if not most areas IMO.
We all enjoy flying in this sim for different reasons, some of them overlap, some don€t.

I have no offense toward anyone looking forward to flying the new Russian bomber, certainly it will be first class, but it interests me very little and I feel frankly railroaded to purchase the Pe-2 in order to continue to fly online instead of using 4.04m considering how this add on has been implemented.

Let me say that I don€t want the add on to be free. What I had hoped is that version identification and compatibility could somehow have been different.

I have purchased the IL2FB original and later again the whole Gold Pack and PF.
I pay for add ons to other games I enjoy without reservation, but there is a difference between a patch and an add on people. Add ons don€t usually change the VERSION of the game, and if they do, they allow for selective play of the base game without the add on for player€s preference or even compatibility.

This whole deal amounts to "Pass the hat" for Oleg IMO, or €œInvest in B.O.B. now and we€ll send you this complimentary player flyable bomber€, €¦€And if you act now we€ll also throw in these two new artillery pieces!€

I would venture that versions 4.05 and up will splinter this community more than PF€s release, and online participation will become fragmented.

Those poor guys trying to fly JUST Pacific Fighters online.... remember them? Remember it was supposed to be a standalone? Good luck with that.
Most of those people probably ended up laying out for IL2AEP just to fly online, but at least they got more theatres/maps and much more than ONE aircraft. They got a great deal really.
The same could be said for those flying IL2FB/AEP having to pickup PF - they had no choice but boy they got a lot for their money too.

Now May/2006 and $18 US for a ONE plane ADD ON that somehow manages to change the VERSION # of the sim or you are left behind.
That€s my point I guess is that historically there is comparably little to gain in jumping up to 4.05 (Nothing IMO), yet the price of not doing so would be shutting off the same old multiplayer switch.
The switch that works fine now.

Does anyone else see this?

Please, I€m not talking about BootyBox or Pe-2 available on CDRom, as these are justifiable but separate issues.

Maraz_5SA
05-03-2006, 01:16 PM
You also get some ground objects with the add-on.

You will not fly the Pe-2 but you can shoot it down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't know where you live but here in Italy 15 euros is less than a pizza and beer at the restaurant.

And think about all the FREE patches (aircraft, maps, etc.) you got...

A version is not compatible with others, this has been so from the original IL-2, so they cannot rework that, it would cost them too much.

If you still think you are being ripped, try to host games with 4.04, maybe you can find other people who think just like you and you can play with them.

Maraz

JunkoIfurita
05-03-2006, 06:48 PM
Your definition is innacurate:

A 'patch' is a code change or code addition for a piece of software specifically to target bugs and performance issues. It does not relate to additional content. Usually this means a change in version

An 'Add-on' is a piece of software that adds new content to an already existing piece of software. An Add-on can INCLUDE patch code, but not necessarily. An Add-on ALSO changes the version of the game, since the code base has changed.

The reason versions of any software 'change' has to do with the Coverage software used during its development. Coverage software produces a new 'build' every time a new piece of code is committed to the project. When that new build is wrapped up and sent to production, you have a new version of the software. Whether this new version is technically a patch or an add-on is irellevent.

The thing is, all the patches we've received from Maddox Games with new content are actually free add-ons (they're actually referred to as such on the Pacific Fighters patch page). We're very lucky to get this since not many games get free additional content.

Now, in the latter days of the series we are receiving some traditional add-ons - i.e. ones you need to pay for.

All the 'add-ons' made by 3rd parties that haven't changed the version of the game are actually just Mission Packs, since that's all they're adding. No new content in the code.

smatchimo
05-03-2006, 07:07 PM
He wasnt complaing about the price, just the way this whole "add-on" has been implemented,

Big a said;

"Let me say that I don€t want the add on to be free. What I had hoped is that version identification and compatibility could somehow have been different."

Please keep your "everything has been free up till now so quit complaining" attitude for those actually complaining about paying for it.

And what exactly was the meaning of "other people that think like you", at least have the ba**s to not hide your personal attacks in thinly valed comments such as that.

It is a legitimate concern, it is going to splinter the online community and he is not the only one worried about this.

BigA21
05-03-2006, 08:41 PM
Thanks for your opinions Gents.

JunkoIfurita's definitions of addons and patches sounds good to me - I am no programmer but they make sense here.

So I would say the Pe-2 is not a patch by JF's definition then since it does not target bugs or performance issues.

The version changed though with Pe-2 so it must be due to the addon definition.

That was what concerned me is how the addon has been implemented in a way mutually exclusive to other versions, almost forcing an upgrade IMO.
Like I mentioned above, mutually exclusive addons are more the minority than the rule in my gaming experiences with eventual long term consequences for users of that application.

As for the replied positions stating "Think of all the free stuff you received in patches", I am not in agreement.

Yes 1C has provided IL2/PF fliers with many, many aircraft, but just a reminder that some of those previous "Patches" supplied additional aircraft that were supposed to be included in the PF as stated on the box....when you and I payed for it.

From the PF readme:
"Attention: We simply ran out of space on our 2 CDs and had to remove some cockpits for several flyable aircraft. Free add-on containing these aircraft will be made available at www.pacific-fighters.com (http://www.pacific-fighters.com) for a free download."


Don't you remember these?

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/3001063732

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m...401056232#3401056232 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/6251036232/r/3401056232#3401056232)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/8761043332

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/6081048632

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/3661036732


If we payed for planes in the box that were later supplied as a patch thats OK - but they weren't "Free".

So no I can not consider all the "Free" stuff I have already payed for as a reason to pony up for a Russian bomber just to help out 1C.

If someone has no desire to fly the Pe-2 but orders it up because they love this sim, that is their business and more power to them, but to do it just for the reason you have stated is... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

So I am beginning to think that few see a risk of this addon dividing the online community.

Thats good then, but I reserve my concerns.

-HH-Quazi
05-03-2006, 09:34 PM
Yes, I understand exactly what you are saying. And am not afraid to say that you are exactly right. It has turned into "Pay, or get left behind." This is not fair for those m8s like yourself that aren't interested in the one type of ac offered in this patch\addon, yet because you cannot play online or with the m8s you have been flying with, you have to either stop or pay to play.

Of course the rumor mill has had the idea that BoB may be set up on a pay to play basis. Strictly rumor mind you. But what if it is. I wouldn't want to have to pay to play. And this is the same situation you and others are in today.

Sadly, if I were in your boat, I would have to find a way to get it because I have too much time invested in many friendships that I wouldn't want to loose out on, more so than the flying part.

And if BoB did turn out to be the same way, thank God for this sim. I actuallt have felt like this sim is beingcut off before its' time, because it has really been a timeless piece. I never understood why they didn't decide to revamp to the new engine and bring what we already have up to that and just continue building on it. Of course I am not a programmer or software creator, but I believe it could have been done. It might have been a pain in the arse, but nonetheless. But this sim will fall by the way side and be flat out forgotten when BoB is released, and this will be a travesdy imho.

Maraz_5SA
05-04-2006, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by smatchimo:
And what exactly was the meaning of "other people that think like you", at least have the ba**s to not hide your personal attacks in thinly valed comments such as that.



The meaning is exactly what I wrote, what's your problem ?

I made no personal attack to anybody (like you are doing with all those ****)

I have no problem if people think differently from me, in Italy we call that "liberty of thought", have you ever heard about that?

Maraz

WB_Outlaw
05-04-2006, 06:18 AM
The version change has nothing to do with builds or definitions of add-ons vs patches, etc. It's simply a number. I've done about 1000 builds of the product I'm currently working on and my customers know it as version 2.0 (coming in two weeks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Internally it's at version 1000 but that has nothing to do with my published version.

The IL-2 versioning is simple. When something changes that would cause a difference between the behavior of the aircraft, the way non-interface objects look, additional aircraft/objects, network code, etc., the version must change so that everyone on line is flying the same version of each aircraft, sees the same objects on the ground (including the same ground), sees the same clouds, etc. If 4.05 didn't include any new objects (which it does IIRC) and since 4.04 does contain the external 3d model for the Pe-2 you could make the argument that it would be possible to make these compatible (assuming that nothing else changed) but that would add lots of error checking code to decide if something (network message, entry in a mission file, etc.) was a "true" error or just something from a different version. A bug in this code could produce truly hilarious results.

Changes to things like the background color of the menus or the splash screen, or fixing some spelling errors, would not require a new version (but they could make it a new version if they wanted to).

--Outlaw.

lbhkilla
05-04-2006, 07:54 AM
Funny thing is you only hear all this "splitting the community" **** from people that don't want the add-on. Most people could care less if a couple people don't buy 4.05, there are plenty of people out there to fly with. Did all you people whine and cry when IL2 came out and Oleg didn't make it compatible with CFS2 so the flight sim community didn't get split? This is just stupid to whine about **** like this, think of it like a new game, if you don't want to buy it, you don't get to play with the people that did buy it.

BigA21
05-04-2006, 08:37 AM
"This is just stupid to whine about **** like this,"

I'm not "Whining" Ibhkilla. Merely pointing out the fact that we are receiving little in the Pe-2 add on compared to previous version changes. With the consequences being rigidly the same.

"...think of it like a new game, if you don't want to buy it, you don't get to play with the people that did buy it."

I bought it already - TWICE.

Edbert
05-04-2006, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
Of course the rumor mill has had the idea that BoB may be set up on a pay to play basis. Strictly rumor mind you. But what if it is.

I have no problem with the pay-to-play structure, I've been paying to play WWII combat sims for well over a decade, but if that is the case a few other things need to be in place.

1.)The software should be free, what you pay for is access to the server and it's arena(s).

2.) The server needs to actually exist. HyperLobby is fine for what it is, a conglomeration of small H2H servers. But if there's to be a charge for playing online then I demand high-end services for the $$$. I mean large server farms/clusters with colocated facilities and highspeed high capacity network connections. These are the only way to support 750+ players ina single room. Without such support there's no excuse for charging for a login.


Originally posted by BigA21:
I bought it already - TWICE.

I understand completely. I bought it five times, the 5th was the complete edition on DVD that arrived 6 days ago.

I also understand that there's bad feelings from folks who don't want to pay extra for one flyable aircraft, very similar actually to those who say we got other flyable aircraft added for free and this one is just the bill coming due. both sides of the argument have good points. But it seems logical that there could be a compatible release of 4.05 that does not allow that one Russian bomber to be flyable yet still allows the community to play online together (at least in the limited way we could with 4.04, see first part of my post).

...just saying...

Heavy_Metal1982
05-04-2006, 11:06 AM
I can understand what most of you are saying. I myself was not going to buy it until all 3 expansions were availible and I would buy that in one shot.. however, I mostly play online. I don't like the offline in this sim as I did Red Baron 3D or even Aces of the Pacific. Anyways, playing online is what I use this sim for the most. I just found out yesterday that my two favourite servers (zekes vs Wildcats and Spits vs 109s are going to upgrade to 4.05. Now I'm seriously considering buying this add on because I'll be left behind. I thought, 'why would servers upgrade for just 1 plane?' oh well, I'll see how things go over the next few days since a lot of people have been frustrated with this whole download process.

TheGozr
05-04-2006, 01:17 PM
Love the New FM of 405m wont go back to 404 for sure. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dean3238
05-04-2006, 01:47 PM
Love the New FM of 405m...

Tell me more... what's different about the flight model?

Dean

Edbert
05-04-2006, 02:24 PM
Dean, take that hook out of yer mouth bro...it doesn't look good on you ;-)

Dean3238
05-04-2006, 02:30 PM
Sorry, thought he was serious...

(These hooks hurt.)

Dean http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Giantiguana20
05-04-2006, 04:18 PM
It does seem kind of silly that they would give us these huge content packages for free, then sell us a single plane, for $15 no less. Thats about a third of the origional cost, shouldn't we get a third of the origional content? Holding multiplayer hostage seems a little underhanded to me. They could produce a free patch that doesn't include the cockpits or the missons. I know they added some extra ground units, but considering the complexity of those things, what is that five minutes of work for a moddler a skinner and a coder?

JastaV
05-05-2006, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Maraz_5SA:

I don't know where you live but here in Italy 15 euros is less than a pizza and beer at the restaurant.

Maraz

All that's true, Maraz_5SA !!!!

Anyway not all areas, in ITALY, have access to a
BROADBAND internet connection.....
And no many people are confident with the usage of CREDIT CARDS on the net.....

I can always ask to some friend, having access to BROADBAND internet connection, to get for me any free download !!!!
But I cannot ask a friend to risk his CREDIT CARDS sensitive datas, for me, on the net !!!

That's the reason I'm seaking for a CD/DVD-ROM retail version of the new upgrades.

JastaV

Edbert
05-08-2006, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Giantiguana20:
It does seem kind of silly that they would give us these huge content packages for free, then sell us a single plane, for $15 no less. Thats about a third of the origional cost, shouldn't we get a third of the origional content? Holding multiplayer hostage seems a little underhanded to me.
I think this is the key here. I have no issue with them selling the add-on planes. I am also grateful that I got so much content for free in previous patches even though I have yet flown any of them yet.

I do object to the inability to play online unless I buy a plane i don;t even want to fly...that pretty much stinks.

MucusG
05-08-2006, 07:54 PM
I am a simple person.

The servers upgrade to 4.05 because people want them too, not the other way round. WE are driving the change to 4.05.

If lots of people still want 4.04 them many servers will stay 4.04.

If no servers stay 4.04 then cough up the money for 4.05 (4.06, 4.07 etc) or dont fly online. Cant fly FB standalone online anymore for this reason.

Edbert
05-09-2006, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by MucusG:
If no servers stay 4.04 then cough up the money for 4.05 (4.06, 4.07 etc) or dont fly online. Cant fly FB standalone online anymore for this reason.

FB standalone is how many years old now? PF added a ton of new content for $40US, how does that compare to one plane for $20US?

I have no problem with buying the game to support the continued development, but did you miss the part where I paid for my 5th box and it arrived (8 business days of shipping from the EU) the same weekend that Pe2 came out? So I now have the "latest and greatest" version ordered (and paid for again), then the very day after it arrives it is obsolete and no longer able to be used online. I know you said you are a simple person but you see no issue here?

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-09-2006, 03:40 PM
I think the community has grown a bit too much and is also a bit spoiled. In the first one or two years, Oleg was a regular poster on this forum. I've been around this forum since the release of Il-2 1.0 (back on the OLD UBI forum) This shows that he really cared about how people felt about his work. There where also critical posts, but most of them where constructive critism. Not like the: "Hey Oleg, fix X on aircraft Y or I stop playing this sim" kind.

I wonder how the BoB community will be.


BTW, it might be wise to change the name of this project. Rowan probably has copyrighted the name BoB as a software product.

Duff4r
05-09-2006, 09:01 PM
I am certainly glad to see this post. The audacity of a 3rd party to build one plane and sell it for the same price as one of the main games slays me? I am appalled that Oleg and UBIsoft would abide it by accepting a version change. Do I mind paying for an addon? Nope, moneys not at issue here. I could also be more than content if one plane per theater were added for $20.00. Or if some of the glaring errors were fixed like planes without sliding canopy's, planes missing mirrors, the TBM added even if it must be in a less than historical form. When you look at it I have paid Oleg 3 times for incomplete games.
Think of the mess this making for a new pilot? Well you have to buy the FB/AEP Gold pack for 19.95 and PF for 26.95 and then of course there's 7 other addon planes at 20 bucks a throw!! Well at least we can keep the community on an even keel and maybe trim it back a bit. We won't need room for the "New Guys"
This is also making a mess of the online servers. It is most certainly unfair to those of us that have invested more than $100.00 in initial game fees,I have purchased IL2, FB, AEP, and PF and I object strongly to this and will not go to 4.05 until it is free or coupled with several other planes.
It is my sincere hope that this little blackmail venture go bust!

Regards,
Duff

joeap
05-10-2006, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by Duff4r:
I am certainly glad to see this post. The audacity of a 3rd party to build one plane and sell it for the same price as one of the main games slays me? I am appalled that Oleg and UBIsoft would abide it by accepting a version change. Do I mind paying for an addon? Nope, moneys not at issue here. I could also be more than content if one plane per theater were added for $20.00. Or if some of the glaring errors were fixed like planes without sliding canopy's, planes missing mirrors, the TBM added even if it must be in a less than historical form. When you look at it I have paid Oleg 3 times for incomplete games.
Think of the mess this making for a new pilot? Well you have to buy the FB/AEP Gold pack for 19.95 and PF for 26.95 and then of course there's 7 other addon planes at 20 bucks a throw!! Well at least we can keep the community on an even keel and maybe trim it back a bit. We won't need room for the "New Guys"
This is also making a mess of the online servers. It is most certainly unfair to those of us that have invested more than $100.00 in initial game fees,I have purchased IL2, FB, AEP, and PF and I object strongly to this and will not go to 4.05 until it is free or coupled with several other planes.
It is my sincere hope that this little blackmail venture go bust!

Regards,
Duff
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

The planes without canopies for starters are old pre-PF planes. No "error" just older modles that would need to be updated and would take more time (which means money). The TBM issue has been dealt with and is not 1C's fault. Otherwise keep http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif and stop playing.

Duff4r
05-10-2006, 10:08 PM
Thanks for answering and addressing NOTHING of what I said...UGH!!

Keep shellin' out your 20 bucks/plane. PT Barnum was quoted as saying "There's one born every minute."

-HH-Quazi
05-10-2006, 11:14 PM
Originally, these addons\patches were meant only for the Russian version of the game\market and to be sold seperately also. But when the rest of the IL2 flying world heard of it, they started screaming foul. And probably bombarded Oleg with requests to make to available to the rest of the IL2 world. Through the entire development I never read one post stating that they would be against paying for them just as our Russian comrades would be doing. Actually, I read alot of, "Oleg has already freely given us many, many ac in previous patches, and he also has continually supported his creation with fixes as needed, unlike every other developer. So I have no problem paying for the three addons. Just give us the same opportunity as you are giving our Russian comrades.", or something similar to that affect. I read those kind of posts one after another all spread out in the different forums we have. And this is what has come to pass.

If so many were dead set against paying for these addons, why didn't they start threads saying so? Why didn't they bombard him with email saying to leave well enough alone one the last free patch is released? Oleg or Ubi isn't responsible for the m8s refusing to pay for these addons, therefore being left out of online servers. They just listened to their customers and did what was asked of them.

So you guys that refuse to pay for these addons for whatever reasons, you should put blame where it needs to be for putting you in this boat, the community at large. And the list is long.

When it is all said and done, I will have $180 tied up in just the boxed,(and downloaded addons) version of this sim. This averages out to be $45 a year (over the last 4 yrs), or $3.75 a month for the many hours upon hours of enjoyment I get out of playing this sim offline and with my friends week in & week out. Imho, it will be money well spent.