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View Full Version : the son of the son etc. HOLY TRINITY



rawrsmitch
01-06-2011, 01:58 PM
I've read The Fall and I got curious about what they were trying to say with this. Out of pure interest I searched up Adam and Eve. From that point I got to the holy trinity. Now read this quote: "Son begotten, not created

Because the Son is begotten, not made, the substance of his person is that of the deity. The creation is brought into being through the Son, but the Son himself is not part of it except through his incarnation." In my eyes this is undoubtedly related to The Son of The Son of the Son. The wikipedia also said The Father is not The Son, The Son is not the Holy Spirit and thus the Holy Spirit is not The Father. But all are God. Now here a quote from The Fall: "A single infinitely complex organism."

And I noticed something else. In the Shield of the Trinity (Scutum Fidei) there are these white blanks, which can be made into the Abstergo logo. (Though the Abstergo logo is known as the all seeing eye.) All are god, maybe the all seeing eye represents god.


"God the Son, JesusŚassumed human nature, so that he has two natures (and hence two wills), and is really and fully both true God and true human." The seeds of two worlds have been planted.


"Because the Son is begotten, not made, the substance of his person is that of the deity. The creation is brought into being through the Son, but the Son himself is not part of it except through his incarnation"

All the memory is one. In our DNA. This makes me think Subject 16 or the Mentor person is in all of us.

Finish. I NEED MORE VISIONS ON THIS!:O

itsamea-mario
01-06-2011, 02:01 PM
I'm not entirely sure what your getting at.
But subject 16 was real, he painted his blood on the walls and stuff.
I don't know anything about the fall, haven't read it.

rawrsmitch
01-06-2011, 02:08 PM
Oh, I wanted to say that Subject 16 may not even be human. Just gets into everyone's head with the bleeding effect. The Assassin Camp director also stated that: "If something can't be seen, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. This could also explain why 'subject 16' is in Daniel Cross and Desmond as well.

itsamea-mario
01-06-2011, 02:17 PM
But Subject 16 is mentioned as a real person who was in the animus before desmond. how can he be a part of everyones psyche if he was real.

rawrsmitch
01-06-2011, 02:27 PM
Yeah, but my point is the memory inside subject 16 that made him know all these things. All memory is one. Desmond's memory is one, subject 16's memory is one. Even Lucy's memory is one. This is why the bleeding effect occurs. New memories are brought in without the animus.

rawrsmitch
01-06-2011, 02:29 PM
If this doesn't sound plausible, forget it. Though The Son of The Son of The Son has definitely to do something with the Holy Trinity. The bible mentions something about the Holy Trinity that really fits this. "Because the Son is begotten, not made, the substance of his person is that of the deity. The creation is brought into being through the Son, but the Son himself is not part of it except through his incarnation"

rawrsmitch
01-06-2011, 03:20 PM
This also implies onto something Alta´r said, that his body would return to Earth but his consciousness might go somewhere else. It goes into memory. All memory is one and Desmond is using the animus as a medium to enter the memories.

itsamea-mario
01-06-2011, 03:22 PM
Edit your post instead of triple posting.

And could be a plausable idea.

ArD117
01-06-2011, 04:35 PM
Seriously? This is awesome hypothesizing, really. There have been suggestions that Altair is the Mentor, and that voice speaking to Daniel may indeed be Altair.

Nevertheless, I believe that this is somewhat metaphorical. Both Altair and (hopefully in Issue 3) Daniel realize that history not only repeats itself, but it also jumps forward and back. Civilizations, great cities like Rome, can fall as swiftly as they flourish and, meanwhile, we all feed off of each other's mistakes and victories. I noticed that, in The Fall, the Brotherhood is assisting the Russian Revolutionaries but we of course know the overarching consequences of this revolution so... it's a bit of a give or take. Assassins, just like Templars, can cause just as much destruction as they can tranquility. It doesn't matter if they don't intend to cause this chaos, because that's the thing about time...it doesn't have morals or feelings. It just is.

What The Fall is saying is really the very essence of Assassin's Creed: Humanity, along with time, form a complex bond. Imagine two people dancing, following a historical tango of sorts. They may change things up here or there every time they dance, they may even make a mistake or fall down...but the dance is basically the same. The dance cannot exist without the dancers, and the dancers wouldn't be dancers without something to dance to.

Of course, I could be VERY wrong.

Avl521
01-06-2011, 04:49 PM
Interesting.

You should order your ideas well, so that your points/theories are more understandable.
Good job anyways, it's possible.

I don't believe the subject 16 part though.
And we know Desmond is "A children of 2 worlds" so he's born from TWCB and humans. Daniel Cross however... I wonder if he also has the abilities of a true assassin. After all it is said Nikolai Orelov was not born in an assassin family.

We don't know enough yet...
And more intriguing even: what does he mean when he says "I saw the shape of time" or sth along those lines?

And I don't think Alta´r is the mentor.
The mentor is the head of the assassin order at all times, if an assassin reaches the top of the order and he's the most skilled and best leader he's called the mentor.

We know Al Mualim was the mentor, then Alta´r became the mentor, in AC:B Ezio becomes Il Mentore. If Ezio became Il Mentore, then Alta´r can't be the mentor, unless there are various mentors in different parts of the world which I just don't believe.
AND we don't know what Alta´r did with the apple, so we can't say by any means that he became immortal since not even TWCB managed to live forever.

TheSpectator
01-06-2011, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Avl521:
Interesting.

You should order your ideas well, so that your points/theories are more understandable.
Good job anyways, it's possible.

I don't believe the subject 16 part though.
And we know Desmond is "A children of 2 worlds" so he's born from TWCB and humans. Daniel Cross however... I wonder if he also has the abilities of a true assassin. After all it is said Nikolai Orelov was not born in an assassin family.

We don't know enough yet...
And more intriguing even: what does he mean when he says "I saw the shape of time" or sth along those lines?

And I don't think Alta´r is the mentor.
The mentor is the head of the assassin order at all times, if an assassin reaches the top of the order and he's the most skilled and best leader he's called the mentor.

We know Al Mualim was the mentor, then Alta´r became the mentor, in AC:B Ezio becomes Il Mentore. If Ezio became Il Mentore, then Alta´r can't be the mentor, unless there are various mentors in different parts of the world which I just don't believe.
AND we don't know what Alta´r did with the apple, so we can't say by any means that he became immortal since not even TWCB managed to live forever.
They couldn't live forever but they were able to leave messages behind which is what i believe altair may have done.

ArD117
01-06-2011, 05:32 PM
When he says: "I saw the shape of time", I really get two things out of it:

Time isn't linear. The Gods in AC2 are clear evidence of manipulating history to communicate with present figures (the gods talking to Ezio to speak with Desmond).

Therefore, it is also a possibility that Daniel realizes Time as a circle. Never ending. As such, Daniel must do a certain task because it was done before to solve a similar problem.

rawrsmitch
01-07-2011, 05:27 AM
Hmm. Good thoughts. But Daniel said that he saw the shape of time. The background had alot of blood and DNA stuff and the birth of a new baby. So...time is in our DNA and time goes on within the DNA of our children? An infinite circle. Oh and does anybody have any ideas why it also showed some kind of Pope guy, Temple and Tesla?

Inorganic9_2
01-07-2011, 05:41 AM
An observation: People have fallen into the same category that most humans, even Ezio fell into by calling TWCB "gods", when Mierva specifically states "no, not gods. We simply came...before"

rawrsmitch
01-07-2011, 05:54 AM
I didn't say they were gods, but people thought of them as gods, because they were the creators and had power.

rawrsmitch
01-07-2011, 02:18 PM
Btw, can someone tell me how to edit my posts, so that I don't have to post new ones over and over again?

cgdemon894
01-07-2011, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by rawrsmitch:
Hmm. Good thoughts. But Daniel said that he saw the shape of time. The background had alot of blood and DNA stuff and the birth of a new baby. So...time is in our DNA and time goes on within the DNA of our children? An infinite circle. Oh and does anybody have any ideas why it also showed some kind of Pope guy, Temple and Tesla?

The Pope Guy was Rodrigo Borgia, the temple was a mayan temple, and tesla turning on the switch resulted with the complex orelov and his assassin's were on to explode.

TwentyGlyphs
01-07-2011, 04:42 PM
I still feel like "the shape of time" is something important to the overall mystery, and that it is circular. The Mayan calendar is circular, and on 12/21/2012 it's starting over at the date 13.0.0.0.0, which was the same date by that calendar over 5,000 years ago. That would date relatively close to the traditional date of Adam and Eve (off by about 1,000 years, but not enough to completely suspend disbelief). Subject 16 and Juno mentioned a Path and a Gate in AC: Brotherhood. Perhaps a path into the past that can only be travelled from and to the Mayan date of 13.0.0.0.0? This would get Desmond into the past to find Eve in Eden, and could explain why TWCB seem to know so much about Desmond and the future.

The symbols on the bedroom wall in AC1 also allude to this -- Revelation 22:13 with Alpha and Omega, the Mandelbrot fractal set that repeats itself infinitely, and the date of 13.0.0.0.0. The whole butterfly effect symbol could refer to one simple act completely altering the entire fate of time. The dialogue in The Fall #2's vision that mentioned memories being everywhere at once and unable to build an accurate timeline also support something weird going on with time.

There's also something more going on with genetic memory, the bleeding effect and the Animus that's important to the story that hasn't been revealed yet.

evilmidget369
01-07-2011, 06:31 PM
I have a feeling that Daniel Cross is going to turn out to be Subject 16. While Nikolai Orelov wasn't born into the Assassin Order he may have had a child to someone that was. That someone could also be a distant relative to Ezio.

Also, could it be possible that Nikolai somehow absorbed some of the POE during the explosion, which could kind of explain why Daniel has the bleeding effect without being in the animus, and is why he can "see the shape of time", which I believe also means that time is not linear.

We do know that there is a POE that can mess with time. I also do like the Mayan calendar theory as well.

rawrsmitch
01-08-2011, 11:17 AM
Actually Nikolai Orelov was born into the Assassin Order because his father was an assassin. And so he grew up to be one as well without choosing that life. And does anybody have a theory why it showed Jupiter, Minerva and Juno when the radiostation in Tunguska exploded and why Nikolai survived?

MrRoboto578
01-08-2011, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by rawrsmitch:
If this doesn't sound plausible, forget it. Though The Son of The Son of The Son has definitely to do something with the Holy Trinity. The bible mentions something about the Holy Trinity that really fits this. "Because the Son is begotten, not made, the substance of his person is that of the deity. The creation is brought into being through the Son, but the Son himself is not part of it except through his incarnation"

The Bible never uses the term "Holy Trinity", as it is a phrase created by humans to name the complexity of the one single God, which is in three different persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each is God, and there is only one God, yet there are three persons. This whole "we cannot understand the complexity of God because we are humans" is made easier by putting titles on the unknowable. I am a Christian, and am really into Christian theology. I am a Reformed Baptist, so don't ask about the Mormon, Catholic, or the Watchtower stuff (those cults aren't Christian, by the way).