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winslynn
11-11-2005, 08:23 PM
I'm half way through the brilliant book "Iron Coffins" by Herbert Werner and as a Silent Hunter 3 fanatic I find all the details in the book so fascinating.I highly recommend it to anyone who really wants some more immersion into the period.

The_Silent_O
11-11-2005, 09:44 PM
Be careful with Werner's book...he was known to 'elaborate' a bit...

...As Modern Naval historian Jordan Vause states about Iron Coffins...

"...Is shot through with factual errors because it was written long after the war ended and Werner relied heavily on his memory"

Wolf, Jordan Vause, Naval Institute Press, Annapolis MD, 1997.

Horst Bredlow, the official U-Boat historian in Germany also calls it "full of mistakes and errors and not a historical source"

You should also check out Werner's record at u boat net (http://uboat.net/men/werner_herbert.htm) It speaks for itself.

If you want to get an operational feel for the battle of the atlantic, read Clay Blair's books or Vause's

Cpt.Thorne
11-12-2005, 04:00 PM
It´s still an exellent read. I also liked the book Battle Beneath The Waves by Robert C. Stern. Don´t know if that´s any good for historical grogs either but still liked it a lot.

Maj_Solo
11-12-2005, 05:01 PM
So, when this critic voulchers get their hand on Das Boot ...... what do they say?

winslynn
11-12-2005, 06:06 PM
I looked up Werners record on u-boat.net,but that's a record of his commands,not his service.Anyway this book really explains to me why the game gets so infernally hard in mid 1943.The game surely is modelled with historical accuracy[within limits of course].I really am getting an idea of the big picture from the book.I just read the part where the new acoustic torps were demonstrated to the officers,so interesting.

Kaleun1961
11-13-2005, 07:01 PM
Not wishing to start a scrap here, just asking a question. What is the authoritative basis for Uboat.net? Just because something is on the internet does not necessarily mean it is factually perfect. I read Iron Coffins and I can see the points being made about his "yarning," which is inevitable in any personal recounting of history.

I hear a lot of people quoting Uboat.net as if straight from the mouth of God. It looks like a pretty good site, so I'm not knocking it, just aksing people to exercise some judgement when appealing to an internet site as an authority on any subject.

Clay Blair's books are solidly written and backed with extensive references. In fact, his books can get a bit dry, they are written in such detail. Not dealing with U-boats is Gordon Prange's writings about Pearl Harbor, also a solidly researched and footnoted book. These are the kinds of books I like to appeal to for definitive data.

The_Silent_O
11-14-2005, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
Not wishing to start a scrap here, just asking a question. What is the authoritative basis for Uboat.net? Just because something is on the internet does not necessarily mean it is factually perfect. I read Iron Coffins and I can see the points being made about his "yarning," which is inevitable in any personal recounting of history.

I hear a lot of people quoting Uboat.net as if straight from the mouth of God. It looks like a pretty good site, so I'm not knocking it, just aksing people to exercise some judgement when appealing to an internet site as an authority on any subject.

Clay Blair's books are solidly written and backed with extensive references. In fact, his books can get a bit dry, they are written in such detail. Not dealing with U-boats is Gordon Prange's writings about Pearl Harbor, also a solidly researched and footnoted book. These are the kinds of books I like to appeal to for definitive data.

K61 (or should I call you peg leg...argggh! Matey...did you get a free parrott with the surgery???)

I've read both Blairs books and have been a 'Fan' of u-boat net for a long time...If you compare the two sources they are spot on

...So if you just want the facts, u boat net is good.

...but if you want the facts and explaination use Blair's books...

Vause, Blair and Horst Bredlow have gone a good distance to correct records as recalled by U-boat commanders...

I just reread an interesting tidbit in Blair's second book which I'll elaborate in another thread.

JU88
11-14-2005, 07:08 AM
Iron coffins is far fetched to say the least, still a good read though.

Horvald
11-14-2005, 07:58 AM
I enjoyed the book very much. As with every book, you have to take it with a grain of salt. After all, it was the book that got me interested in u boots. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kaleun1961
11-14-2005, 03:46 PM
I picked up volume 1 of Blair's U-boat history at a recycled reading store, in good condition. I'm still hunting around for volume 2.

polak5
11-14-2005, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Maj_Solo:
So, when this critic voulchers get their hand on Das Boot ...... what do they say?

Exactly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

kptltU-1312
11-21-2005, 07:18 AM
Ive just finished a book called HIRSCHFELD,after the author.

he was a radio operator aboard U-109, kept a diary. a very very good read! Highly recommended. just about to start on Doenitz's memoirs.

cheers from U-1312.

The_Silent_O
11-21-2005, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by kptltU-1312:
Ive just finished a book called HIRSCHFELD,after the author.

he was a radio operator aboard U-109, kept a diary. a very very good read! Highly recommended. just about to start on Doenitz's memoirs.

cheers from U-1312.

Somebody on this post is actually Hirschfeld's nepfew (or Grandnepfew) or Grandson...I think it is Celeon999, but I'm not sure...I'll do some hunting around.

The_Silent_O
11-21-2005, 07:58 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/7981022992/r/1671087992#1671087992

Indeed, it IS Celeon999's grandfather! see above!

Celeon999
11-21-2005, 09:03 AM
Well, he "was"

Grandfather mothers side.

He died this year after been sick for a long time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

But heh he became 89 years old. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Like he always said

"Thats something most of my comerades didnt reached"

"And some of these guys from U-109 still owe me a lot of money!"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Also good are the photo books of Lothar-Günther Buchheim (the real "Leutnant Werner" from Das Boot)

Boy ! This guy hates Doenitz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Bubblehead1948
11-21-2005, 06:34 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Don't discount old Werner too much.
I think his book makes it accurately clear just how difficult things got for U-boats as the war progressed, and he also makes it clear that Germany was just a bit behind the curve in certain technologies until losses drove them to innovate. The value of this book, I think, is that it places in perspective just how vulnerable u-boats eventually became.

Kaleun1961
11-21-2005, 07:03 PM
Up until 1943 they more or less stayed ahead of the Allies, being hindered more by lack of their own numbers than Allied ASW. Then in May, 1943, the investment of the Allies into ASW weaponry, tactics and training suddenly came together and 40 U-boats were killed. The next month saw about 19, a loss rate which could not be sustained. Not only were they being destroyed, but they were hardly able to get near the convoys to launch effective attacks. By late 43 or into 44 the odds were so great against them that a U-boat putting to sea had an average chance of 50% to survive their first patrol.

kptltU-1312
11-29-2005, 04:40 AM
g'day,

im staggered that this is really such a small world afterall.

i read Hirschfeld (the book), so slowly because i was totally fascinated by such remarkable experiences. such witnessed accounts must surely be very very rare. i cannot hope to understand the courage required to fight aboard a u-boat.

greetings to you celeon999, and my condolences to you also on your grandfathers passing. i trust he would be sharing beers with his shipmates now.

i finished the book wondering if he ever did embark on his career in fisheries?

best wishes to you all.
KptLt U-1312 (steve).


---Bless them for they for they do not grow old as those that are left grow old. In the going down of the sun, we shall remember them. LEST WE FORGET.---

Celeon999
11-29-2005, 07:15 AM
As far as i know he didnt.

I just know that once he was back im germany it took him nearly 2 weeks to get through to Berlin.

Allied control posts everywhere.
Americans , Britains , French everybody wanted to see his papers over and over again.

Who are you ?

Have you been member of the nazi party ?

Your papers are surely faked you d@mn kraut!

You better tell us the truth !

I dont care about your papers give me your watch and your cigarettes or i will get you arrested you d@mn nazi pig.

The typical stuff http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

He got to Berlin just to notice that the house he was living in was just a pile of rubble while all other houses in the entire block were still standing.

Thats luck heh ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


On the same day a girl on an bicycle crashed into him as he crossed a street. The brakes didnt worked somehow and he was the only obstacle in the way at that moment. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Survived the entire war and nearly gets killed by an girl that lost control over her bicycle. Thats life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


That girl later became my grandmother http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I kust know that he once had a little shop , selling cigars and tobacco.

The_Silent_O
11-29-2005, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
As far as i know he didnt.

I just know that once he was back im germany it took him nearly 2 weeks to get through to Berlin.

Allied control posts everywhere.
Americans , Britains , French everybody wanted to see his papers over and over again.

Who are you ?

Have you been member of the nazi party ?

Your papers are surely faked you d@mn kraut!

You better tell us the truth !

I dont care about your papers give me your watch and your cigarettes or i will get you arrested you d@mn nazi pig.

The typical stuff http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

He got to Berlin just to notice that the house he was living in was just a pile of rubble while all other houses in the entire block were still standing.

Thats luck heh ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


On the same day a girl on an bicycle crashed into him as he crossed a street. The brakes didnt worked somehow and he was the only obstacle in the way at that moment. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Survived the entire war and nearly gets killed by an girl that lost control over her bicycle. Thats life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


That girl later became my grandmother http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I kust know that he once had a little shop , selling cigars and tobacco.

Cel999,

That's a cool story how they met...Luckily they kissed and made up...OR ELSE THERE WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN A 'CELEON999' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

No secret bunker or tank photos...no propaganda posters...no modern German view...nope, none!

Celeon999
11-29-2005, 08:51 AM
I guess thats what they call the "butterfly effect" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

patboot
11-29-2005, 08:15 PM
'Iron Coffins" should be used as more as a "Personal Reflection", rather than a historical reference.

A good read, giving some insight into the Unterseewaffe through the war, but more concerned with Werners' own experiences- and those not quite accurate.

VikingGrandad
11-30-2005, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by The_Silent_O:

Cel999,

That's a cool story how they met...Luckily they kissed and made up...OR ELSE THERE WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN A 'CELEON999' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

No secret bunker or tank photos...no propaganda posters...no modern German view...nope, none!
Speaking of which - Celeon999, I miss your updates to the secret German bunker images ... I'd love to see some more!

Celeon999
11-30-2005, 03:10 PM
Speaking of which - Celeon999, I miss your updates to the secret German bunker images ... I'd love to see some more!


Uh ok, if you like.

There is not so much interesting things stuff at the others.

That means the pics are not so interesting because the other facilitys are mostly unfinished but there is a lot of information on these.

But if you want i will get it on tomorrow and post some updates. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If i remember right there is left :

- The most advanced Me-262 factory that was build

(Or : How to make an mountain hollow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )

- Partial unexplored SS Bunker system in the mountains at Berchtesgaden

(Or : Why are the allied soldiers blind and never found it ?)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Propably they found G¶rings house first and were all drunken from his gigantic wine collection. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

- The private bunker of Martin Bormann under his house in Berchtesgaden.

(Or : Why Celeon_999 had multiple skull fractures after visiting this thing with its low ceilings. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )



-

VikingGrandad
11-30-2005, 04:14 PM
More updates would be great! They all sound interesting to me, and I'm sure other people would like to see more pictures too... but I realize it must be a lot of work for you to capture the video images, so please don't do it if you don't have the time or if you have better things to do! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So you went exploring in Berchtesgaden? Did you discover anything interesting? (you should have worn your Wehrmacht helmet to protect your head!)

HeibgesU999
11-30-2005, 04:24 PM
I would read "U-Boat Commander" by Peter Cremer, the "U-Boat Commander" by Erich Topp and "Eleven Years and Twenty Days" by Karl Doenitz

You might also try "Uboat Commander" by Gunter Prien, although this is more propaganda than historical text.

Celeon999
12-01-2005, 02:53 AM
Ok i will make some updates but i dont know when this will be. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


So you went exploring in Berchtesgaden? Did you discover anything interesting? (you should have worn your Wehrmacht helmet to protect your head!)

Nope nothing interesting. Everything empty since the 45.

And yes i should have worn my "Hurra Tüte" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif