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View Full Version : Keeping Your Speed up in a turnfight



Avont29
11-22-2008, 07:46 PM
i just discovered this tonight accidentally....

i ended up outturning a BF109 E-7 with my P-40 C variant and shooting him down. Listen to this story


So I'm on skies of valor in Africa desert. As im gaining altitude heading towards the frontlines..by myself..i see two bf109s and a friendly fighting ahead of me.....all of a sudden i see this other 109 swooping down ready to bounce me...mind you we are at 7,000 + ft.

so i dive down, and dip through the clouds to try and shake him..no joy

So i hit the deck to make a run for it, hauling tail across the African desert ground....steady but surely he is gaining on me.

So i'm thinking to myself...d*mn. My only other option is to try and outturn him, so i bank hard left, throw the combat flaps on and pull into a steep turn.

The 109 is still behind, turning with me...and yet didn't fire any shots....he's waiting for the perfect shot. He probably thinks he's got me in the palm of his hand. Still maintaining my turn, I cut my circle and dipped down to regain some energy and pull back up into an accelerating climb.

I did this totally by instinct. By now, I'm pretty sure im going a bit faster than him now...so i do this a couple more times, when i pull out of the last turn, i pull my p-40 up heading straight towards the 109, and fire the 50 cals wildly hoping to hit something, i was going so fast and seen i was about to crash RIGHT into his left wing, still firing i saw right through his wing, BARELY crashing into it.

He goes spiraling down to his death on the African soil. I salute him and continue to regain my altitude.


Its amazaing though, don't know how the hell i did this lol. I'm usually a B&Zer, but somehow when we were in that turnfight, i cut the circle slowly, more and more, until i could run right into the 109's circle path. Its very hard to explain, i wish i had a track.

Pigeon_
11-22-2008, 08:01 PM
Well, if he was going faster than you and you were both circling down somewhat it could very well have been that he was not at optimal turning speed and you were. Some more details about exact plane types are needed to draw a better conclusion though. 109 F2/4 and G2 turn good, but are still outturned by P-40E-M-105...

M_Gunz
11-23-2008, 01:27 AM
Running a tilted circle (though more egg shaped than circle) is a great way to gain angle in a faster (esp in dives) plane.
You can as you saw build incredible speed if you fly it along a very energy-conserving path. It's a bit like the race car
drivers following the best path around the track, any bit off costs speed which is where driver skill makes the difference.

Good points are that even though you are not turning as hard as possible you are still keeping out of his fire. At this time
the maneuver fight is no longer about ability to turn hard but rather about high speed and turning gentle which cancels his
advantage in moderate and lowspeed turns. Why he didn't counter you in some way, he maybe had no experience in what you
were doing and still very confident in result or just got too greedy.

Maybe next time you won't make the luck shot because you'll bring it around to where it ain't luck at all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

general_kalle
11-23-2008, 08:13 AM
also at high speed its very easy to outturn a me109 as its controls locks up.
alternativly you can dive very steeply pulling up just before the ground, if the 109 is greedy or inexperienced he will crash into the ground unable to pull up in time

Jaws2002
11-23-2008, 10:49 AM
If you keep diving and climbing doing some sort of combat turns inside his turn, you can use the vector roll to add to your turning to gain angle.
After few turns you end up both in better tactical position and with more energy then the plane that's doing simple flat turns.
I managed many times to convert an aparent turn fight into a "zoom and boom" using this Yo-yo's.
After few turns if he keeps turning flat you gain enough energy to get above them and totally control the fight.

Well done Sir. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

M_Gunz
11-23-2008, 11:51 AM
It's weird though since he was catching up with you before, he lost through piloting more than anything.

Avont29
11-23-2008, 12:05 PM
yes when we were in the turnfight, i could see his wings starting to stall, he was just doing a regular turn, while i was starting to stall also, i dipped down and came back up, to regain some energy.

its almost exactly as Jaws2002 said it, but i didn't climb above him and B&Z him, i turned straight into his path and blew his wing off.

speed was probally somewhere between 150 and 190mph.

M_Gunz
11-23-2008, 12:37 PM
If he followed you then he didn't stay in horizontal turn.
Those are not high speeds at all for those planes, btw, you made quite a deficit up in your piloting over his.
You might want to keep more speed and alt in a P-40. I'd feel kind of itchy at anything less than 240mph/400kph in one.
I do understand that before the last bit you did lose speed trying to throw him off though and it was a bad situation for you.

x6BL_Brando
11-23-2008, 03:54 PM
To me the boom and zoom definition seems to be getting stretched out of all proportion. Being in a turn-fight isn't about remaining in some near horizontal flightpath, it's about proximity and turning. A vertical loop is just a horizontal turn switched through 90 degrees and I wouldn't expect to be pulled for being a b'n'z'er in that circumstance. True boom and zoom is about seeking a good advantage in altitude and dropping onto a (preferably unknowing) enemy, with the intention of blasting him out of the sky and getting back up on your perch before anyone else is any the wiser. 109s, among others, are excellent planes for this form of combat.

The error here was on the part of your opponent trying to stay locked on your six. If he had maintained some altitude and just tailed you, instead of committing to a low-level chase, then he could have nailed you in your desperate zoom. It was his insistence on trying to stay with your gyrations that cost him, when a climbing turn away from yours would probably have preserved his advantage.

Well done for getting him! Those instinctive shots are often the best form of attack in a tight corner. The only problem with the endless "hit fly" syndrome is that he may go away and figure out just how you suckered him, whereas in real life he wouldn't. Better watch out!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif B

Avont29
11-23-2008, 05:50 PM
yes, thats why i love warclouds.

you get 3 lives, once you run out of those 3 lives you are kickbanned for a set amount of time.

So you know when you are on your last life, and your in a fight, your going to try your BEST to get back to base. You tend to think smarter when you know if you die in this fight, you can't come back for a while.

Jex_TE
11-24-2008, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by Avont29:
yes, thats why i love warclouds.

you get 3 lives, once you run out of those 3 lives you are kickbanned for a set amount of time.

So you know when you are on your last life, and your in a fight, your going to try your BEST to get back to base. You tend to think smarter when you know if you die in this fight, you can't come back for a while.

Aah that's whats going on eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif same for WingsOver Europe?

K_Freddie
11-24-2008, 04:14 PM
I found the P40 able to turn inside a BF at any speed. Not sure which HL svr it was (full real one), but had a BF take a snap at me, overshoot and do a tight turn, he was gaining in the turn.

Then I decided to pull in flaps, picked up speed and then dropped combat flaps..and gained on him very quickly, about to let loose when another P40 jumped in front of my nose.

Storyline.. The BF's turning circle has a optimum speed - keep the speed up and you're ok.
Below optimum... needs special abilities. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

WTE_Galway
11-24-2008, 05:11 PM
ironically the sort of almost yoyo technique you were using was historically an actual turn fight technique used by some 109 pilots

experienced 109 pilots would fly "egg shaped" turns alternating between turns tight enough to pop the slats open and a looser turn to regain speed which might incorporate a shallow dive