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Locutis_NJG88
09-08-2005, 02:20 PM
This thread is best viewed with full realism set to ON€¦

I hope that the time and thought I have placed in this thread is a waste of time. I hope Oleg addresses these issues with the next patch. However, I have my doubts and I am posting this now so that I can educate, stimulate and hopefully motivate people to comment.

I wanted to voice my concern for two significant exploits that are being used to turn this WWII Simulation into an X-Plane simulation. I am talking about trim and Prop pitch cheats / exploits being used to enhance performance that is completely beyond real world recorded data.

Before I start I want to clarify that I am a Simulation Fan. I don€t care about US VS German VS Russian uber aircraft. I want a realistic simulation and PF is straying far enough from that to make me question buying the next release. I understand that in order to get this into a computer screen some things have to be considered but what I have seen over the last few months is just totally out of scope.

The trim exploit/cheat is simply the ability to place the trim adjustments for a given Aircraft on a slider, rotator knob or used in conjunction with a script that can be triggered by various means including voice. When used effectively this increases the turning rate without affecting the drag rate as much as an elevator movement would. I have seen 190€s outturning spitfires and 180 degree turns that don€t bleed off more than a slight amount of energy. I have also seen 109€s exhibiting the same effects. A pilot slams the slider all the way up and now he doesn€t have to pull up on the stick as much as he would if it were trimmed neutrally. The effect is a highly efficient turn with almost no drag and is simply not real world. Real world pilots could not adjust trim settings this quickly and certainly didn€t do it in combat. It took time, most trim setting were on wheels and had to be cranked. Some aircraft didn€t even have these trim settings at all. It also took a bit of trial and error to see if the setting was correct. This is the kind of thing a pilot did during long flights or test flights. This isn€t a real world combat tactic. This is an open advantage to both sides BTW but it doesn€t make it a simulated feature of the era we are all flying in. Anyone who thinks this is real world can supply me with flight logs showing that pilots adjusted his elevator positive and negative in combat to take advantage of a better turn rate. I will be in your debt. What you will find is that they adjusted it for neutrality and left it alone for fear that screwing around might produce adverse effects that would kill them..

We already faced this problem years ago by the way. Anyone invested in this sim remembers when flaps deployed to various settings instantly instead of the time it took in RW. This time increment was added for reality and to avoid exploiting the flaps on an aircraft to attain unrealistic value. It also stopped jamming your flaps from an accidental deployment to takeoff or landing position. We have the time to retract flaps because they deploy slowly like they would if they were on a wheel or operated by hydraulic pressure.

My suggestion is that trim adjustments get modeled in increments of 5 seconds to avoid the slamming of a slider for instant trim changes. Drag needs to be properly modeled into trim changes as well. We should see increased drag on the airframe with grossly adjusted trim settings. If an aircraft was grossly out of trim it would be at a tactical disadvantage and most pilots would opt for neutrality in trim. We do not have this to date. These two features if deployed in the simulation would be both RW and fair to all sides.

The second portion of this thread is connected to the Prop pitch exploit. This exploit is done by mapping a manual prop pitch control value (in German Aircraft) to a button that can be tapped or a slider that can be slammed on and off. The effect is a tremendous boost to horse power and speed at all altitudes, angles and scenario€s. If you have ever climbed up behind a 109 and seen its tail bobbing up and down a little you have seen someone using this exploit. You might have noticed that they were climbing at a very high rate. This exploit if used effectively can take an aircraft at stall speeds and give it more than enough power to loop up and over for a huge tactical advantage. It can be used to take a 109 at the top of a lopp and increase its acceleration to maximum speed in just a couple seconds. This exploit can be used in conjunction with the trim slider exploit in an instant to produce an incredible turn rate.

Real world data, incidental logs and input from actual pilots has shown that pilots had significant difficulty controlling prop pitch and few adjusted it accept for long flight durations and it took time to attain optimum RPM rates. Once again this was not a combat tactic. A pilot would have to have at least 4 arms and a computer for a brain to adjust the prop pitch, trim settings and yank the stick, fire the guns, and all of this under the tremendous load of sustained G€s in a combat situation.

This is an extremely effective exploit because prop pitch adjustments can be made to 100% for short periods without damage to the engine. In RW pilots didn€t touch this because they were scared to blow up their engine and DIE! None of are scared to DIE though we have a refly button€¦.

This needs to be dealt with. I think that it would be easy to stop without removing the ability to adjust the prop for long term flights and save fuel and motor load. By introducing a 5-8 second adjustment in each prop pitch setting pilots would simply not be able to put the prop at a destructive value because the 5-8 seconds would destroy the engine. Honest players can tune their engine for a long flight but cheaters can€t take advantage of the FM.

These two exploits produce effects that take this sim into the quake/Unreal arena where we simply get used to the FM and throw realism out the window. I want to see a 190 and fight it using historical tactics. Unfortunately I see 190 performing negative G rolls at 700+KPH and 109 dropping their nose and attaining an AOA that would produce an instant red out.

I am not favoring German, US or Russian aircraft. I am favoring a true simulation.

Locutis_NJG88
09-08-2005, 02:20 PM
This thread is best viewed with full realism set to ON€¦

I hope that the time and thought I have placed in this thread is a waste of time. I hope Oleg addresses these issues with the next patch. However, I have my doubts and I am posting this now so that I can educate, stimulate and hopefully motivate people to comment.

I wanted to voice my concern for two significant exploits that are being used to turn this WWII Simulation into an X-Plane simulation. I am talking about trim and Prop pitch cheats / exploits being used to enhance performance that is completely beyond real world recorded data.

Before I start I want to clarify that I am a Simulation Fan. I don€t care about US VS German VS Russian uber aircraft. I want a realistic simulation and PF is straying far enough from that to make me question buying the next release. I understand that in order to get this into a computer screen some things have to be considered but what I have seen over the last few months is just totally out of scope.

The trim exploit/cheat is simply the ability to place the trim adjustments for a given Aircraft on a slider, rotator knob or used in conjunction with a script that can be triggered by various means including voice. When used effectively this increases the turning rate without affecting the drag rate as much as an elevator movement would. I have seen 190€s outturning spitfires and 180 degree turns that don€t bleed off more than a slight amount of energy. I have also seen 109€s exhibiting the same effects. A pilot slams the slider all the way up and now he doesn€t have to pull up on the stick as much as he would if it were trimmed neutrally. The effect is a highly efficient turn with almost no drag and is simply not real world. Real world pilots could not adjust trim settings this quickly and certainly didn€t do it in combat. It took time, most trim setting were on wheels and had to be cranked. Some aircraft didn€t even have these trim settings at all. It also took a bit of trial and error to see if the setting was correct. This is the kind of thing a pilot did during long flights or test flights. This isn€t a real world combat tactic. This is an open advantage to both sides BTW but it doesn€t make it a simulated feature of the era we are all flying in. Anyone who thinks this is real world can supply me with flight logs showing that pilots adjusted his elevator positive and negative in combat to take advantage of a better turn rate. I will be in your debt. What you will find is that they adjusted it for neutrality and left it alone for fear that screwing around might produce adverse effects that would kill them..

We already faced this problem years ago by the way. Anyone invested in this sim remembers when flaps deployed to various settings instantly instead of the time it took in RW. This time increment was added for reality and to avoid exploiting the flaps on an aircraft to attain unrealistic value. It also stopped jamming your flaps from an accidental deployment to takeoff or landing position. We have the time to retract flaps because they deploy slowly like they would if they were on a wheel or operated by hydraulic pressure.

My suggestion is that trim adjustments get modeled in increments of 5 seconds to avoid the slamming of a slider for instant trim changes. Drag needs to be properly modeled into trim changes as well. We should see increased drag on the airframe with grossly adjusted trim settings. If an aircraft was grossly out of trim it would be at a tactical disadvantage and most pilots would opt for neutrality in trim. We do not have this to date. These two features if deployed in the simulation would be both RW and fair to all sides.

The second portion of this thread is connected to the Prop pitch exploit. This exploit is done by mapping a manual prop pitch control value (in German Aircraft) to a button that can be tapped or a slider that can be slammed on and off. The effect is a tremendous boost to horse power and speed at all altitudes, angles and scenario€s. If you have ever climbed up behind a 109 and seen its tail bobbing up and down a little you have seen someone using this exploit. You might have noticed that they were climbing at a very high rate. This exploit if used effectively can take an aircraft at stall speeds and give it more than enough power to loop up and over for a huge tactical advantage. It can be used to take a 109 at the top of a lopp and increase its acceleration to maximum speed in just a couple seconds. This exploit can be used in conjunction with the trim slider exploit in an instant to produce an incredible turn rate.

Real world data, incidental logs and input from actual pilots has shown that pilots had significant difficulty controlling prop pitch and few adjusted it accept for long flight durations and it took time to attain optimum RPM rates. Once again this was not a combat tactic. A pilot would have to have at least 4 arms and a computer for a brain to adjust the prop pitch, trim settings and yank the stick, fire the guns, and all of this under the tremendous load of sustained G€s in a combat situation.

This is an extremely effective exploit because prop pitch adjustments can be made to 100% for short periods without damage to the engine. In RW pilots didn€t touch this because they were scared to blow up their engine and DIE! None of are scared to DIE though we have a refly button€¦.

This needs to be dealt with. I think that it would be easy to stop without removing the ability to adjust the prop for long term flights and save fuel and motor load. By introducing a 5-8 second adjustment in each prop pitch setting pilots would simply not be able to put the prop at a destructive value because the 5-8 seconds would destroy the engine. Honest players can tune their engine for a long flight but cheaters can€t take advantage of the FM.

These two exploits produce effects that take this sim into the quake/Unreal arena where we simply get used to the FM and throw realism out the window. I want to see a 190 and fight it using historical tactics. Unfortunately I see 190 performing negative G rolls at 700+KPH and 109 dropping their nose and attaining an AOA that would produce an instant red out.

I am not favoring German, US or Russian aircraft. I am favoring a true simulation.

tigertalon
09-08-2005, 02:30 PM
Just got nailed by 109? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kuna15
09-08-2005, 02:37 PM
Hey Locutis didn't you read that Oleg infact stopped the release of 4.02 untill prop.pitch problem isn't solved? At least that is what OM says.

About trim noone mentioned any changes in that area afaik, but since all aircraft have that possibiltiy it isn't urgent but it is good to be solved once and for all this or that way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by skyiced:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What we need is already programmed and operating in wonderwoman, and it would be a big enhancement to getting the most of the new FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wonderwomen is total ****. that its in the game is absolute bs, i hate thats its enabled on most the servers and is my honest opinion is a thorn in the side of this simulator. and stands firm against what the sim is so great for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You better run and catch that bus because you missed it...... the fact that this sim is so scalable.... for such a wide array of tastes and skill sets and still with a quality simming experience is what makes it stand out and what it is known for.. I think the diversity is good and only helps the sim community and puts $$ in 1Cs pockets... which is what most of us want so they can keep cranking out these stellar hits....

Back on target..... OK.. no beating around the bush...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
Next new small patch that we plan to release in the end of August is v4.02 and will contains:

- Changes and tunes in new FM.
- Yak-7B, 1942 with M-105PF engine
- P-47D boosted for use of 150 octan (almost P-47M performance).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg you know how we are... it is now Sept. 2 and as you know there are a few thousand folks worldwide haunting this forum looking for that patch but no one wants to say anything......LMAO........ We sit waiting with baited breath.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


There is found one bug which allow to cheat in climb in one type of the aictraft. So we are working with it currently and when its solved - we will release the patch. Maybe one week more we need from now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ORR thread http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/8371080943/p/30

Tvrdi
09-08-2005, 02:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:
This thread is best viewed with full realism set to ON€¦

I hope that the time and thought I have placed in this thread is a waste of time. I hope Oleg addresses these issues with the next patch. However, I have my doubts and I am posting this now so that I can educate, stimulate and hopefully motivate people to comment.

I wanted to voice my concern for two significant exploits that are being used to turn this WWII Simulation into an X-Plane simulation. I am talking about trim and Prop pitch cheats / exploits being used to enhance performance that is completely beyond real world recorded data.

Before I start I want to clarify that I am a Simulation Fan. I don€t care about US VS German VS Russian uber aircraft. I want a realistic simulation and PF is straying far enough from that to make me question buying the next release. I understand that in order to get this into a computer screen some things have to be considered but what I have seen over the last few months is just totally out of scope.

The trim exploit/cheat is simply the ability to place the trim adjustments for a given Aircraft on a slider, rotator knob or used in conjunction with a script that can be triggered by various means including voice. When used effectively this increases the turning rate without affecting the drag rate as much as an elevator movement would. I have seen 190€s outturning spitfires and 180 degree turns that don€t bleed off more than a slight amount of energy. I have also seen 109€s exhibiting the same effects. A pilot slams the slider all the way up and now he doesn€t have to pull up on the stick as much as he would if it were trimmed neutrally. The effect is a highly efficient turn with almost no drag and is simply not real world. Real world pilots could not adjust trim settings this quickly and certainly didn€t do it in combat. It took time, most trim setting were on wheels and had to be cranked. Some aircraft didn€t even have these trim settings at all. It also took a bit of trial and error to see if the setting was correct. This is the kind of thing a pilot did during long flights or test flights. This isn€t a real world combat tactic. This is an open advantage to both sides BTW but it doesn€t make it a simulated feature of the era we are all flying in. Anyone who thinks this is real world can supply me with flight logs showing that pilots adjusted his elevator positive and negative in combat to take advantage of a better turn rate. I will be in your debt. What you will find is that they adjusted it for neutrality and left it alone for fear that screwing around might produce adverse effects that would kill them..

We already faced this problem years ago by the way. Anyone invested in this sim remembers when flaps deployed to various settings instantly instead of the time it took in RW. This time increment was added for reality and to avoid exploiting the flaps on an aircraft to attain unrealistic value. It also stopped jamming your flaps from an accidental deployment to takeoff or landing position. We have the time to retract flaps because they deploy slowly like they would if they were on a wheel or operated by hydraulic pressure.

My suggestion is that trim adjustments get modeled in increments of 5 seconds to avoid the slamming of a slider for instant trim changes. Drag needs to be properly modeled into trim changes as well. We should see increased drag on the airframe with grossly adjusted trim settings. If an aircraft was grossly out of trim it would be at a tactical disadvantage and most pilots would opt for neutrality in trim. We do not have this to date. These two features if deployed in the simulation would be both RW and fair to all sides.

The second portion of this thread is connected to the Prop pitch exploit. This exploit is done by mapping a manual prop pitch control value (in German Aircraft) to a button that can be tapped or a slider that can be slammed on and off. The effect is a tremendous boost to horse power and speed at all altitudes, angles and scenario€s. If you have ever climbed up behind a 109 and seen its tail bobbing up and down a little you have seen someone using this exploit. You might have noticed that they were climbing at a very high rate. This exploit if used effectively can take an aircraft at stall speeds and give it more than enough power to loop up and over for a huge tactical advantage. It can be used to take a 109 at the top of a lopp and increase its acceleration to maximum speed in just a couple seconds. This exploit can be used in conjunction with the trim slider exploit in an instant to produce an incredible turn rate.

Real world data, incidental logs and input from actual pilots has shown that pilots had significant difficulty controlling prop pitch and few adjusted it accept for long flight durations and it took time to attain optimum RPM rates. Once again this was not a combat tactic. A pilot would have to have at least 4 arms and a computer for a brain to adjust the prop pitch, trim settings and yank the stick, fire the guns, and all of this under the tremendous load of sustained G€s in a combat situation.

This is an extremely effective exploit because prop pitch adjustments can be made to 100% for short periods without damage to the engine. In RW pilots didn€t touch this because they were scared to blow up their engine and DIE! None of are scared to DIE though we have a refly button€¦.

This needs to be dealt with. I think that it would be easy to stop without removing the ability to adjust the prop for long term flights and save fuel and motor load. By introducing a 5-8 second adjustment in each prop pitch setting pilots would simply not be able to put the prop at a destructive value because the 5-8 seconds would destroy the engine. Honest players can tune their engine for a long flight but cheaters can€t take advantage of the FM.

These two exploits produce effects that take this sim into the quake/Unreal arena where we simply get used to the FM and throw realism out the window. I want to see a 190 and fight it using historical tactics. Unfortunately I see 190 performing negative G rolls at 700+KPH and 109 dropping their nose and attaining an AOA that would produce an instant red out.

I am not favoring German, US or Russian aircraft. I am favoring a true simulation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wher is fix for faster overheating in LW planes...try K4 on example...whats about FW190 gunsight view (and P47 gunsight)? whats about shaking noses in LW planes even with gentle turns and pulls? why only in mustang you can feel the same on the red side? wtf..take all the shi* out not only the favourite one....sssshhhh

btw forget all the fixes...BoB is coming

Locutis_NJG88
09-08-2005, 05:27 PM
I understand that the Prop pitch "might" be dealt with I don't see it yet. If it gets dealt with well that would be one small step in the right direction.

Trim cheat is not a major concern? Neither is realism then...no surprise I see 190 pulling manuvers that are simply not possible in a 190...so everyone can cheat with the trim exploit , guess we should then.

I'm not paying for Bob until I feel it delivers on what it promises. I wont pay for an expansion of this game either in fact im not paying for anything from UBI untill I have tried it to make sure I am not being suckered into a beta testers position.

PFS_BlackBird
09-08-2005, 06:27 PM
I always look for mistakes on my end when i fail to down an enemy. If nobody told me about this, i wouldnt know it was there and still blame myself if i had been outmaneuvered or outclimbed by these planes.

But now i know, and it is rediculous... So it is infact not me who is inferior. The other guy is going beyond limits to be superior.

I don't mind if my plane is a tad wobbly, or if the guns are a bit weak; i can (learn to) live with it. I do mind when someone else is exploiting his plane to get results i can't even get in an historically superior aircraft on that aspect of flying.

Thats cheating. And it should be delt with before things that are 'inaccurate'.


BB

cpirrmann
09-08-2005, 06:32 PM
Pilots in combat did indeed use their trim wheels in combat. I read accounts by P51 pilots who did just that while turning to get a little extra deflection and describing the frenetic activity of using stick and rudder and throttle all while turning trim wheels left and right.

ReligiousZealot
09-08-2005, 06:45 PM
I completely understand where this is coming from, I love flying 109s against the US birds but I don't have a trim slider or one for prop pitch, thus I rarely play with these settings.

Despite this handicap, I too have witnessed these ridiculous exploits and been greatly irritated as one of my allies pulls a turn with a spit and gets the kill that I could've had with out cheating. I am by no means an ace, but knowing of these exploits has made me reconsider taking my sim experience online as of recently.

I refuse to join the leagues of "cheaters" and I agree as such as Locutis has stated. Would you seriously start hacking on Counter-Strike because you got killed by hackers?

Tachyon1000
09-08-2005, 10:39 PM
I hope you are referring to the actual X-planes in the original post and not the X-Plane flight simulator which as far as I know has the most accurate flight model that one can purchase as a retail title on CD.

sy-subrc
09-09-2005, 06:01 AM
I've tried this "manual prop" exploit/cheat (whatever you like most) and yes, it can give you some extra performance but in 2 out of 3 cases, it'll blow up your engine - maybe I'm not fast enough in switching it off again... I know, I'm not gonna try this online - press the button a split second too long and your doomed...

About the trim cheat - it also works for spits, mustangs and probably all the other planes - last time i was in a high speed headon with mustang. Once it passed me, it was a second later on my six without much (if any) loss of energy - and I haven't turned at all im Dora..

So, yes, please fix it Oleg, it still remains open which side will suffer more :-)

Jumoschwanz
09-09-2005, 07:18 AM
Right, those who mess with the prop-pitch on the 109 usually are trying to get someone to follow them up to stall out under them. The solution is to just not follow a 109 or any plane up in a steep climb unless you KNOW you have enough E to stay with them. If you get greedy and can't help following a 109 or other plane up in a steep climb because you think you are going to hit it and disable it then that is your choice, and you deserve to get your a s s kicked when you do stall out below him.

And yes, the 109 engine will blow up easy if you use manual pitch and rev it high. The concentration spent fiddleing with manual prop-pitch is much better spent somewhere else.

And as for the trim on a slider, turning with the trim on a slider bleeds just as much E in a 180 degree turn as using the regular elevator control, they both do the same thing, they move the elevator up and down! Did you actually test this? I did. Believe me if I could turn a plane without bleeding energy I would be doing it.

Two little minor and insignificant things a loser has latched onto to make himself feel better about getting his a s s kicked all over the place.
If he put as much effort into looking at himself and his own lack of skill as he did into threads like this and blaming his failure on such little things he would do much better.

Jumoschwanz

Von_Rat
09-09-2005, 07:29 AM
you all of course realise that serveral allied planes get a speed boost, beyond their stated performence, by manipulating the prop pitch in a certain totally non historical way. its not quite as much as 09s , but they can do it with no fear of blowing the motor.

they better plan on fixing it on all planes, not just 109.

Chuck_Older
09-09-2005, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:
This thread is best viewed with full realism set to ON€¦

I hope that the time and thought I have placed in this thread is a waste of time. I hope Oleg addresses these issues with the next patch. However, I have my doubts and I am posting this now so that I can educate, stimulate and hopefully motivate people to comment.

I wanted to voice my concern for two significant exploits that are being used to turn this WWII Simulation into an X-Plane simulation. I am talking about trim and Prop pitch cheats / exploits being used to enhance performance that is completely beyond real world recorded data.

Before I start I want to clarify that I am a Simulation Fan. I don€t care about US VS German VS Russian uber aircraft. I want a realistic simulation and PF is straying far enough from that to make me question buying the next release. I understand that in order to get this into a computer screen some things have to be considered but what I have seen over the last few months is just totally out of scope.

The trim exploit/cheat is simply the ability to place the trim adjustments for a given Aircraft on a slider, rotator knob or used in conjunction with a script that can be triggered by various means including voice. When used effectively this increases the turning rate without affecting the drag rate as much as an elevator movement would. I have seen 190€s outturning spitfires and 180 degree turns that don€t bleed off more than a slight amount of energy. I have also seen 109€s exhibiting the same effects. A pilot slams the slider all the way up and now he doesn€t have to pull up on the stick as much as he would if it were trimmed neutrally. The effect is a highly efficient turn with almost no drag and is simply not real world. Real world pilots could not adjust trim settings this quickly and certainly didn€t do it in combat. It took time, most trim setting were on wheels and had to be cranked. Some aircraft didn€t even have these trim settings at all. It also took a bit of trial and error to see if the setting was correct. This is the kind of thing a pilot did during long flights or test flights. This isn€t a real world combat tactic. This is an open advantage to both sides BTW but it doesn€t make it a simulated feature of the era we are all flying in. Anyone who thinks this is real world can supply me with flight logs showing that pilots adjusted his elevator positive and negative in combat to take advantage of a better turn rate. I will be in your debt. What you will find is that they adjusted it for neutrality and left it alone for fear that screwing around might produce adverse effects that would kill them..

We already faced this problem years ago by the way. Anyone invested in this sim remembers when flaps deployed to various settings instantly instead of the time it took in RW. This time increment was added for reality and to avoid exploiting the flaps on an aircraft to attain unrealistic value. It also stopped jamming your flaps from an accidental deployment to takeoff or landing position. We have the time to retract flaps because they deploy slowly like they would if they were on a wheel or operated by hydraulic pressure.

My suggestion is that trim adjustments get modeled in increments of 5 seconds to avoid the slamming of a slider for instant trim changes. Drag needs to be properly modeled into trim changes as well. We should see increased drag on the airframe with grossly adjusted trim settings. If an aircraft was grossly out of trim it would be at a tactical disadvantage and most pilots would opt for neutrality in trim. We do not have this to date. These two features if deployed in the simulation would be both RW and fair to all sides.

The second portion of this thread is connected to the Prop pitch exploit. This exploit is done by mapping a manual prop pitch control value (in German Aircraft) to a button that can be tapped or a slider that can be slammed on and off. The effect is a tremendous boost to horse power and speed at all altitudes, angles and scenario€s. If you have ever climbed up behind a 109 and seen its tail bobbing up and down a little you have seen someone using this exploit. You might have noticed that they were climbing at a very high rate. This exploit if used effectively can take an aircraft at stall speeds and give it more than enough power to loop up and over for a huge tactical advantage. It can be used to take a 109 at the top of a lopp and increase its acceleration to maximum speed in just a couple seconds. This exploit can be used in conjunction with the trim slider exploit in an instant to produce an incredible turn rate.

Real world data, incidental logs and input from actual pilots has shown that pilots had significant difficulty controlling prop pitch and few adjusted it accept for long flight durations and it took time to attain optimum RPM rates. Once again this was not a combat tactic. A pilot would have to have at least 4 arms and a computer for a brain to adjust the prop pitch, trim settings and yank the stick, fire the guns, and all of this under the tremendous load of sustained G€s in a combat situation.

This is an extremely effective exploit because prop pitch adjustments can be made to 100% for short periods without damage to the engine. In RW pilots didn€t touch this because they were scared to blow up their engine and DIE! None of are scared to DIE though we have a refly button€¦.

This needs to be dealt with. I think that it would be easy to stop without removing the ability to adjust the prop for long term flights and save fuel and motor load. By introducing a 5-8 second adjustment in each prop pitch setting pilots would simply not be able to put the prop at a destructive value because the 5-8 seconds would destroy the engine. Honest players can tune their engine for a long flight but cheaters can€t take advantage of the FM.

These two exploits produce effects that take this sim into the quake/Unreal arena where we simply get used to the FM and throw realism out the window. I want to see a 190 and fight it using historical tactics. Unfortunately I see 190 performing negative G rolls at 700+KPH and 109 dropping their nose and attaining an AOA that would produce an instant red out.

I am not favoring German, US or Russian aircraft. I am favoring a true simulation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, my full realism is on.

1) Your first sentence:
"I hope that the time and thought I have placed in this thread is a waste of time." Proof reading is your friend http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

2) No sim has ever been perfect

3) Online play is not the end-all and be-all of this sim. I note with increasing annoyance that many players only play online, and never consider the sim out of that context.

One of your complaints is an exploit, which frankly is at least as much the fault of your human opponents as your sim

4) Oleg has mentioned that he's on the exploit

5) you say you want a true sim but you also suggest an arbitrary 5-8 second delay. Make up your mind-do you want realism, or arbitrary concession for online play?

6) your comparison to Quake/Unreal is your opinion and nothing more. Nobody forces you to play the sim

7) instead of posting this here, where Oleg won't see it, send an e-mail to the bug reporting address

stubby
09-09-2005, 08:29 AM
this is why most folks don't play online. for all the 'cheats' and 'exploits' that are known, there are many more, nasty ones that remain hidden in the shadows. i remember hearing folks say that closed code applications like Il2 are cheat and exploit proof. yea, sure.

the sad reality of online play is that some folks, not all, some, are so desparate to be the man that they will stop at nothing to win. sadly, it only takes a few bad apples to cast suspicion upon the whole online community. For example - when planes start warping or mysteriously having the uncanny ability to worm hole from your 12 to your 6 in the blink of an eye, folks are uncertain wether it was truly a lag issue or some shameful cheat.

carguy_
09-09-2005, 08:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:
This thread is best viewed with full realism set to ON€¦ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can`t be serious http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I hope that the time and thought I have placed in this thread is a waste of time. I hope Oleg addresses these issues with the next patch. However, I have my doubts and I am posting this now so that I can educate, stimulate and hopefully motivate people to comment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is wasted time.The thread presents no value
It is gonna get ugly so I`m going to go with the flow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wanted to voice my concern for two significant exploits that are being used to turn this WWII Simulation into an X-Plane simulation. I am talking about trim and Prop pitch cheats / exploits being used to enhance performance that is completely beyond real world recorded data. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A`ight....uuuum so where is real life data?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Before I start I want to clarify that I am a Simulation Fan. I don€t care about US VS German VS Russian uber aircraft. I want a realistic simulation and PF is straying far enough from that to make me question buying the next release. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nobody apart from 1C gives a rat`s *** whether you buy it or not. You can`t be a simulation ffan since you don`t present any proof whatsoever in this thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What you will find is that they adjusted it for neutrality and left it alone for fear that screwing around might produce adverse effects that would kill them.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I take it for your version of history then.

Trim is a very weird issue.Why does trim improve plane characteristics?I don`t know,I never tried it.Trim ifluence on the virtual pilot(lack of blackout) and especially turn rate creates an exploit of avoiding real consequences of excessive trim.I think that your method is,like Chuck said,arbitrary.IMO trim increments should be set in a way that makes trim slower.It can be coding that every 2nd increment(a button click) is should be counted so trim would be 2x slower than now.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The effect is a tremendous boost to horse power and speed at all altitudes, angles and scenario€s. If you have ever climbed up behind a 109 and seen its tail bobbing up and down a little you have seen someone using this exploit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a schisofrenia to me.Lookout for those little malicious LW exploit pilots!They may be under your bed!

Been flying a 109 since 2002 and I don`t take it for a "tremendous" boost.The boost is made by higher RPM that are safe historically but are not allowed by auto prop pitch(Komandogerat).It allows 2600RPM whereas 2900RPM was relatively safe for a limited time.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You might have noticed that they were climbing at a very high rate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Explain what does mean "very high" on the issue exactly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This exploit if used effectively can take an aircraft at stall speeds and give it more than enough power to loop up and over for a huge tactical advantage. It can be used to take a 109 at the top of a lopp and increase its acceleration to maximum speed in just a couple seconds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch!A loop at stall speed,max acceleration and
really HUGE advantage in SECONDS! WOOOOOW!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This exploit can be used in conjunction with the trim slider exploit in an instant to produce an incredible turn rate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

INCREDIBLE!

Stall speeds are overmodelled on the 109,we know that.Then again,the Bf109 is not the only one that stalls too late.

IF the Bf109 has stall speed 50km/h too low and his opponent flies a plane that is also overmodelled by 50km/h it is ok by me.

Again a glance on the issue from two sides unlike your trolling.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Real world data, incidental logs and input from actual pilots has shown that pilots had significant difficulty controlling prop pitch and few adjusted it accept for long flight durations and it took time to attain optimum RPM rates. Once again this was not a combat tactic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhuh...not a combat tactic.But why does Kommandogerat allow 300RPM too low?Anyways,where is the data again?

Me:I do not use manual pp in combat.Current danger of blowing an engine because 100RPM too high is too much of a risk.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A pilot would have to have at least 4 arms and a computer for a brain to adjust the prop pitch, trim settings and yank the stick, fire the guns, and all of this under the tremendous load of sustained G€s in a combat situation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I quite agree.Not very possible in combat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is an extremely effective exploit because prop pitch adjustments can be made to 100% for short periods without damage to the engine. In RW pilots didn€t touch this because they were scared to blow up their engine and DIE! None of are scared to DIE though we have a refly button€¦. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Extremely effective" exploit?You`re beginning to talk like Leadspitter.

Yeah,we can die all we want.You`re not afraid to DF a 09 in a P51 because you have a refly button too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This needs to be dealt with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,it does.Trim,auto pp giving worse performance,109 and other planes stall characteristics,50cal and machineguns overall sync problem,P38 roc,FW190DM,ammobelt for .50cal,missing loadouts for early LW planes aswell as HVARs for P51,lack of refraction for FW190 gunsight,netcode,dynamic campaigns,lack of `45 boosted LW planes,SpitIX performance and more...




<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">These two exploits produce effects that take this sim into the quake/Unreal arena where we simply get used to the FM and throw realism out the window. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup.You should check BOBII out.No game will ever be absolutely realistic.We cannot deal with absolute definition of 'realism' in regerds to PC games.Besides,1C changes FM in every patch.We must get used to its every change.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I want to see a 190 and fight it using historical tactics. Unfortunately I see 190 performing negative G rolls at 700+KPH and 109 dropping their nose and attaining an AOA that would produce an instant red out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you talk about historical tactics for a FW190 if you don`t have any idea about them?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am not favoring German, US or Russian aircraft. I am favoring a true simulation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You mean realistic "Let`s show those Nazis once again that P51 won the war" sim?CFS3 still exists AFAIK.Go fetch it.

Too bad there are no threads about USAAF/RAF planes being engine RPM full proof.You can run the engine on the red in RPM gauge in those planes but nothing happens.LW planes can have blown engines because too high RPM whereas those do not.

Locutis_NJG88
09-09-2005, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Right, those who mess with the prop-pitch on the 109 usually are trying to get someone to follow them up to stall out under them. The solution is to just not follow a 109 or any plane up in a steep climb unless you KNOW you have enough E to stay with them. If you get greedy and can't help following a 109 or other plane up in a steep climb because you think you are going to hit it and disable it then that is your choice, and you deserve to get your a s s kicked when you do stall out below him.

And yes, the 109 engine will blow up easy if you use manual pitch and rev it high. The concentration spent fiddleing with manual prop-pitch is much better spent somewhere else.

And as for the trim on a slider, turning with the trim on a slider bleeds just as much E in a 180 degree turn as using the regular elevator control, they both do the same thing, they move the elevator up and down! Did you actually test this? I did. Believe me if I could turn a plane without bleeding energy I would be doing it.

Two little minor and insignificant things a loser has latched onto to make himself feel better about getting his a s s kicked all over the place.
If he put as much effort into looking at himself and his own lack of skill as he did into threads like this and blaming his failure on such little things he would do much better.

Jumoschwanz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jumoschwanz, you will note I never made statements at the skill level of myself, my enemies or you for that matter. I was commenting on the simulation and historical accuracy. I don't need to defend my online skills to someone who does not even appear on the Warclouds WF stats page but I have been flying online since online FLights simulations were started at the command promt in DOS. This discussion isnt about me getting my *** kicked it happens allt he time and I never posted abotu it. It's about cheating, go back and read it again. Better yet get on warclouds and lets see you back up your talk. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Locutis_NJG88
09-09-2005, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:
This thread is best viewed with full realism set to ON€¦

I hope that the time and thought I have placed in this thread is a waste of time. I hope Oleg addresses these issues with the next patch. However, I have my doubts and I am posting this now so that I can educate, stimulate and hopefully motivate people to comment.

I wanted to voice my concern for two significant exploits that are being used to turn this WWII Simulation into an X-Plane simulation. I am talking about trim and Prop pitch cheats / exploits being used to enhance performance that is completely beyond real world recorded data.

Before I start I want to clarify that I am a Simulation Fan. I don€t care about US VS German VS Russian uber aircraft. I want a realistic simulation and PF is straying far enough from that to make me question buying the next release. I understand that in order to get this into a computer screen some things have to be considered but what I have seen over the last few months is just totally out of scope.

The trim exploit/cheat is simply the ability to place the trim adjustments for a given Aircraft on a slider, rotator knob or used in conjunction with a script that can be triggered by various means including voice. When used effectively this increases the turning rate without affecting the drag rate as much as an elevator movement would. I have seen 190€s outturning spitfires and 180 degree turns that don€t bleed off more than a slight amount of energy. I have also seen 109€s exhibiting the same effects. A pilot slams the slider all the way up and now he doesn€t have to pull up on the stick as much as he would if it were trimmed neutrally. The effect is a highly efficient turn with almost no drag and is simply not real world. Real world pilots could not adjust trim settings this quickly and certainly didn€t do it in combat. It took time, most trim setting were on wheels and had to be cranked. Some aircraft didn€t even have these trim settings at all. It also took a bit of trial and error to see if the setting was correct. This is the kind of thing a pilot did during long flights or test flights. This isn€t a real world combat tactic. This is an open advantage to both sides BTW but it doesn€t make it a simulated feature of the era we are all flying in. Anyone who thinks this is real world can supply me with flight logs showing that pilots adjusted his elevator positive and negative in combat to take advantage of a better turn rate. I will be in your debt. What you will find is that they adjusted it for neutrality and left it alone for fear that screwing around might produce adverse effects that would kill them..

We already faced this problem years ago by the way. Anyone invested in this sim remembers when flaps deployed to various settings instantly instead of the time it took in RW. This time increment was added for reality and to avoid exploiting the flaps on an aircraft to attain unrealistic value. It also stopped jamming your flaps from an accidental deployment to takeoff or landing position. We have the time to retract flaps because they deploy slowly like they would if they were on a wheel or operated by hydraulic pressure.

My suggestion is that trim adjustments get modeled in increments of 5 seconds to avoid the slamming of a slider for instant trim changes. Drag needs to be properly modeled into trim changes as well. We should see increased drag on the airframe with grossly adjusted trim settings. If an aircraft was grossly out of trim it would be at a tactical disadvantage and most pilots would opt for neutrality in trim. We do not have this to date. These two features if deployed in the simulation would be both RW and fair to all sides.

The second portion of this thread is connected to the Prop pitch exploit. This exploit is done by mapping a manual prop pitch control value (in German Aircraft) to a button that can be tapped or a slider that can be slammed on and off. The effect is a tremendous boost to horse power and speed at all altitudes, angles and scenario€s. If you have ever climbed up behind a 109 and seen its tail bobbing up and down a little you have seen someone using this exploit. You might have noticed that they were climbing at a very high rate. This exploit if used effectively can take an aircraft at stall speeds and give it more than enough power to loop up and over for a huge tactical advantage. It can be used to take a 109 at the top of a lopp and increase its acceleration to maximum speed in just a couple seconds. This exploit can be used in conjunction with the trim slider exploit in an instant to produce an incredible turn rate.

Real world data, incidental logs and input from actual pilots has shown that pilots had significant difficulty controlling prop pitch and few adjusted it accept for long flight durations and it took time to attain optimum RPM rates. Once again this was not a combat tactic. A pilot would have to have at least 4 arms and a computer for a brain to adjust the prop pitch, trim settings and yank the stick, fire the guns, and all of this under the tremendous load of sustained G€s in a combat situation.

This is an extremely effective exploit because prop pitch adjustments can be made to 100% for short periods without damage to the engine. In RW pilots didn€t touch this because they were scared to blow up their engine and DIE! None of are scared to DIE though we have a refly button€¦.

This needs to be dealt with. I think that it would be easy to stop without removing the ability to adjust the prop for long term flights and save fuel and motor load. By introducing a 5-8 second adjustment in each prop pitch setting pilots would simply not be able to put the prop at a destructive value because the 5-8 seconds would destroy the engine. Honest players can tune their engine for a long flight but cheaters can€t take advantage of the FM.

These two exploits produce effects that take this sim into the quake/Unreal arena where we simply get used to the FM and throw realism out the window. I want to see a 190 and fight it using historical tactics. Unfortunately I see 190 performing negative G rolls at 700+KPH and 109 dropping their nose and attaining an AOA that would produce an instant red out.

I am not favoring German, US or Russian aircraft. I am favoring a true simulation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, my full realism is on.

1) Your first sentence:
"I hope that the time and thought I have placed in this thread is a waste of time." Proof reading is your friend http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

2) No sim has ever been perfect

3) Online play is not the end-all and be-all of this sim. I note with increasing annoyance that many players only play online, and never consider the sim out of that context.

One of your complaints is an exploit, which frankly is at least as much the fault of your human opponents as your sim

4) Oleg has mentioned that he's on the exploit

5) you say you want a true sim but you also suggest an arbitrary 5-8 second delay. Make up your mind-do you want realism, or arbitrary concession for online play?

6) your comparison to Quake/Unreal is your opinion and nothing more. Nobody forces you to play the sim

7) instead of posting this here, where Oleg won't see it, send an e-mail to the bug reporting address </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points chuck, I didn't proof read enough ....

You are right taking advantage of the exploit is a human issue, one we can control.

the arbitrary number 5-8 is a concession lets make it 8! Happy?

Chuck_Older
09-09-2005, 09:39 AM
But what realism is there in that 8 seconds? I can understand where you're coming from, but to me, you can't chant the mantra of realism while also advocating an arbitrary waiting period to adjust something. You're simply swapping one unrealistic aspect for a new aspect that's unrealistic is all I can see, so I guess no, I'm not happy

Locutis_NJG88
09-09-2005, 10:04 AM
This reply is best viewed with spell check on! (Chuck I proof read just for you)

Just for the record I have been testing these issues to the best of my ability. My experience has been that when I utilize trim on a slider I get an instantaneous turn increase that was not modeled in the same time frame in RW planes.

It was posted that P-51 pilots adjusted trim in combat, could you please post the logs I want to read them. This is the data I was asking for, thanks for your help.

My point here is that no pilot could attain a trim change, prop pitch change in a single flip of a switch. Neither should we...it took more time and so it should for us.

As far as the people who posted that it€s not a major big deal that these exploits remain I would ask you to consider what can happen if you start to combine these exploits at the same time€¦that€s the heart of the issue on the performance gain IMO. Extra turn rate with extra power all in a half second is not real world.

My skills are not the question here and simply not following a 109 because he might be cheating destroys the whole concept of the game. If I see a 109 in a climb I should be able to gauge what that pilot can do to a certain point. For example I know that the sustained turn rate of certain 109€s was inferior to the spitfire, so in a turn fight I know I am pitting my strength against his weakness. Now if the pilot slides his trim up and hits prop pitch on and off every few seconds he has enough power to sustain turns longer than he would in RW and enough trim to make tighter turns. This is historically inaccurate.

But let€s switch sides now and take a spitfire and put it in defensive position. Now the 109 at the right speed and angle can turn with a spitfire for a short period (to the best of my experiences) but if the spit pilot can utilize trim on a slider he will probably put his aircraft into a tighter turn that the 109 can handle (and black out long before the 109 but that€s a another thread * ) Unfortunately the spit cant take advantage of an extra boost because their prop pitch does not work the same way. Still the 109 can€t engage with known tactics because the performances are out of line with RW values.

So my point continues we are no longer learning the FM and air combat tactics of WWII aircraft we are learning the exploits of the code and the weaknesses in the game.

Oleg and Ubi might not give a rats a#$ about my perspective but I know it touches a significant portion of the market hey want to sell BOB to. None of that market wants to buy BOB only to have well versed cheaters take them for a ride while they try to engage in historical tactics used in WWII. Who would?

Locutis_NJG88
09-09-2005, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
But what realism is there in that 8 seconds? I can understand where you're coming from, but to me, you can't chant the mantra of realism while also advocating an arbitrary waiting period to adjust something. You're simply swapping one unrealistic aspect for a new aspect that's unrealistic is all I can see, so I guess no, I'm not happy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would be happy with a real world value that basically took away the ability for instant trim changes and prop pitch changes in favor for some kind of time delay. I agree Chuck 8 secconds is just as wrong as .5 its not real world. I think if you and I had to slug it out over what the change would be we would both win. Any delay would work IMO

MLudner
09-09-2005, 10:19 AM
I myself make almost no use of trim, frankly it drives me nuts. Not having any real training in real Fixed Wing Aircraft (Some in rotor wing) I am not certain how real trim works, but in game there is a delay between the adjustments I make and any reaction from the aircraft. As a result I cannot tell immediately if I've applied too much or too little and I end-up chasing the trim set until I get frustrated and trim back to neutral. I do adjust prop pitch and fuel mix where possible.
Is there a delayed reaction in trim adjustment in real fixed-wing aircraft? I should think there would not be, but...

LEBillfish
09-09-2005, 11:13 AM
Actually.....I can't say I have ever noticed these cheats....Though I suppose they could exist but unable to try them without the equipment to say one way or the other.

However, I fly FW's a lot, and can tell you MANY do not fly a Spit well. Many refuse to trim their rudder and elevator in it, and yes in the right energy state I will often out turn a Spitfire.......Frankly I find it ridiculous most believe the FW should be nothing but a fast moving log, as it has many design qualities of a "unstable fighter" riding the razors edge. Controlled instability = Maneuverability + High H.P. = the ability to recoup blown speed and E.

As to the prop pitch cheat that I don't buy. As above the optimum you lose speed (just like a high gear ratio rear axle)....However you gain the ability to get the engine back to revs and recoup its torque, gradually reducing the pitch then will speed you up.

Now I myself mess with P.P. very little. On FW's or 109's I never touch it unless trying to save fuel. Other planes I tend to set to 85% then forget it. Still others I'll fiddle with it between 45%-95% but always to gain speed by lowering it or to try and recoup rpms if say in a slow recouping plane like a Ki-61.

Yet I have played with it, and really fail to see how cranking it to 100% gains you speed....In the end however, you should be able to run it high for short periods...So really do not understand this supposed exploit.


In the end, I'm sure there are some out there that devote most of their time into trying to cheat the sim. I've seen some like the one squadron who having never flown the plane I fly daily was able to climb to 3km+ doing circles around me as I was still struggling to reach 1km. Then when called on it suddenly seemed to lose all performance until the fight started.

Yet really, it's their loss....All my accomplishments here earned........See in contrast to what I'm sure is many here hero, I believe in the Kobaioshi Maru(sp?) scenario, as it teaches you not only how to deal with losing, yet teaches you how to delay it longer each time you play it......SO in all other scenario's you come out way ahead.

IMLTHO

Platypus_1.JaVA
09-09-2005, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:

The trim exploit/cheat is simply the ability to place the trim adjustments for a given Aircraft on a slider, rotator knob or used in conjunction with a script that can be triggered by various means including voice. When used effectively this increases the turning rate without affecting the drag rate as much as an elevator movement would. I have seen 190€s outturning spitfires and 180 degree turns that don€t bleed off more than a slight amount of energy. I have also seen 109€s exhibiting the same effects.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not bother to read the entire thread but, I got a few pints to make.
A: the 109 at least on most versions have no elevator trim. And I can think of scenarios where the 109 is indeed a better turner tha the spitfire.
B: Trim tabs are linked to their respective control surfaces. They are designed in a way that if they start to move, the connected control surface moves with it. So, you should get the same amount of drag from trimming and pulling your stick. But, what makes you think it is elevator drag that slows an aircraft down when turning? I think it is a combination of fuselage/wing drag and moment of inertia, both resulting from changing the vector. (by pulling the stick or yout trim)
C: Trim was there in real life. Elevator trim was in many cases a big wheel wich could be turned wth relative ease from the pilot.
D: I feel like i am in less control when operating the trim. If you move it too little, the effect is too weak. If you move it too much, your arcraft might stall and/or spin. So, when in a stress situation, it is much better to pull your stick then flip the trim slider and stall out of control.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:

The second portion of this thread is connected to the Prop pitch exploit. This exploit is done by mapping a manual prop pitch control value (in German Aircraft) to a button that can be tapped or a slider that can be slammed on and off. The effect is a tremendous boost to horse power and speed at all altitudes, angles and scenario€s.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES and it will also cook your engine in an instant. Leave it on automatic and let the beuatifull German enginering take care of the prop pitch.

PFS_BlackBird
09-09-2005, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:

A: the 109 at least on most versions have no elevator trim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Might want to reconsider this statement.


BB

Deep_Moby
09-09-2005, 01:52 PM
1 Prop pitch
to fix this exploit we would need to model RL engine handling.
REV UP /THROTTLE BACK is a mantra many RL pilots know
a) to increase power you must first increase RPM then Manifold presssure (MP)
b) to decrease power you must first decrease thottle then RPM

[ so you cannot reduce RPM at full throttle or slam throttle open at full RPM]

to do otherwise overboosts the engine =damage

Acheieving this model requires the lever on our joysticks to control MP or boost not a percentage of throttle movement and the same for RPM.
We as pilots in the sim would need to know the max MP/boost or RPM we could safely apply.
Perhaps a range of joystick throttle setting would be 150% with max MP/boost set at about 100% AND we would need to look at the gauge(or use our ears to set a Engine note/sound) to set this --not a value overlaid on the screen.

Then the benefit of the komandgerat(whatever it is) would really shine


2. Trim
Trim can be set instantly in RL but takes time to apply and can only be set a handful at a time.
When we see the trim wheel spinning away in IL2/PF it is WRONG
Imagine trying to turn a small wheel with sweaty hands in gloves(maybe) and the wheel is stiff to turn and is mounted on the side of a wall. it takes time and can only be done a chunk(hand full) at a time.
AS for wartime pilots using trim as you can in the game (bat turns) I dont buy it but i wasn't there.
But I think they did use it a little for turn help and dive recovery.

Does anyone know if any WWII planes had electric trim??

Until these issues are modelled as in RL we are stuck with these exploits

I have flown

C152 fixed pitch
PA28 warrior fixed pitch
PA34 Seneca Variable pitch prop

737/ bac1-11/ L1011 Tristar / 747-200/ 747-400 SIMULATORS

A319/320/321 Actual planes

Standing by to be corrected


Regards
Deep aka Moby

Chuck_Older
09-09-2005, 02:45 PM
Unless I'm very mistaken FW 190 had electrical flaps and trim

Deep_Moby
09-09-2005, 02:59 PM
Even electric trim is slow


Deep/Moby

Kuna15
09-09-2005, 03:26 PM
Come on Locutis all players can use insta-wheel-elevator trim, so it automatically renders it not cheat but exploit.
About realism of that kind of trim that is of course dubious but I think there must be better way to solve this problem other than have delayed trim (before) or insta-wheel-trim (as it is now).

And TBH with you someone can surprise me with some really tight turn (using the exploit) in poor turn aircraft but the consequences *should* be - insta-blackout, loss of speed or stall depending on speed of the enemy aircraft.

I personally don't use that exploit.

Badsight.
09-09-2005, 03:28 PM
what is wrong with manuel PP in the Bf-109s ?

the speed which you can jump from auto to manuel

the lack of engine damadge from extreme over-rev

.

should manuel PP give better performance ?

yes & especially so if the auto system doesnt maintain optimum revs

Locutis_NJG88
09-09-2005, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:

The trim exploit/cheat is simply the ability to place the trim adjustments for a given Aircraft on a slider, rotator knob or used in conjunction with a script that can be triggered by various means including voice. When used effectively this increases the turning rate without affecting the drag rate as much as an elevator movement would. I have seen 190€s outturning spitfires and 180 degree turns that don€t bleed off more than a slight amount of energy. I have also seen 109€s exhibiting the same effects.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not bother to read the entire thread but, I got a few pints to make.
A: the 109 at least on most versions have no elevator trim. And I can think of scenarios where the 109 is indeed a better turner tha the spitfire.
B: Trim tabs are linked to their respective control surfaces. They are designed in a way that if they start to move, the connected control surface moves with it. So, you should get the same amount of drag from trimming and pulling your stick. But, what makes you think it is elevator drag that slows an aircraft down when turning? I think it is a combination of fuselage/wing drag and moment of inertia, both resulting from changing the vector. (by pulling the stick or yout trim)
C: Trim was there in real life. Elevator trim was in many cases a big wheel wich could be turned wth relative ease from the pilot.
D: I feel like i am in less control when operating the trim. If you move it too little, the effect is too weak. If you move it too much, your arcraft might stall and/or spin. So, when in a stress situation, it is much better to pull your stick then flip the trim slider and stall out of control.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:

The second portion of this thread is connected to the Prop pitch exploit. This exploit is done by mapping a manual prop pitch control value (in German Aircraft) to a button that can be tapped or a slider that can be slammed on and off. The effect is a tremendous boost to horse power and speed at all altitudes, angles and scenario€s.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES and it will also cook your engine in an instant. Leave it on automatic and let the beuatifull German enginering take care of the prop pitch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have to counter your inacurate statement. The 109's have evelator trim I can record a track of one pulling a loop without the stick moving if you like? I can loop a 109 using only trim so it does exist.

Your statement about prop pitch is also not correct. you can map an incriment say 85% and pop instantly between the setting on/off/on off and gain an RPM advantage and in this sim at least a speed increase. If left alone 85% would cook your engine but because the sim allows for an instant prop pitch adjust ment back and forth it doesnt cook your engine and this isnt real world. German pilots didnt do this in combat for fear of cooking engines...

waffen-79
09-09-2005, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Just got nailed by 109? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif good one TT

Locutis_NJG88
09-09-2005, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Just got nailed by 109? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif good one TT </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I get downed by most of the LW a/c just ask fish and RR who have the highest kill streaks on me alone but thats not the point of the thread, if you read it you might get it...its about realism....if you don't care get tot he back of the line.

Te_Vigo
09-10-2005, 02:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sy-subrc:
I've tried this "manual prop" exploit/cheat (whatever you like most) and yes, it can give you some extra performance but in 2 out of 3 cases, it'll blow up your engine - maybe I'm not fast enough in switching it off again... I know, I'm not gonna try this online - press the button a split second too long and your doomed...

About the trim cheat - it also works for spits, mustangs and probably all the other planes - last time i was in a high speed headon with mustang. Once it passed me, it was a second later on my six without much (if any) loss of energy - and I haven't turned at all im Dora..

So, yes, please fix it Oleg, it still remains open which side will suffer more :-) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya don't get any extra advantage from using trim in turns by having the trim function on a slider, ya get less stick movement to make the turn.
Didn't WWII planes have their pitch control on a lever, right beside the throttle and mixture levers????

Golly gee wizz............chop your throttle (slowly) to nearly zero and kick in opposite rudder to make the really tight turns.
ie left bank/ right foot down, right bank/ left foot down.
even with flaps on a button, all ya gotta do is drop flaps into "combat', then immediately raise flaps, to get a good advantage.

Kuna15
09-10-2005, 02:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Te_Vigo:
even with flaps on a button, all ya gotta do is drop flaps into "combat', then immediately raise flaps, to get a good advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember someone saying that it is possible to have several flaps positions on aircrafts that have only raised and landing position by mapping it on the wheel. Never tried it tho, just you have reminded me of thet.

Fehler
09-10-2005, 03:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:
This reply is best viewed with spell check on! (Chuck I proof read just for you)

Just for the record I have been testing these issues to the best of my ability. My experience has been that when I utilize trim on a slider I get an instantaneous turn increase that was not modeled in the same time frame in RW planes.

What are these RW plane times? You make a statement but then provide nothing to demonstrate it. It would be like me saying, I cant get these pixel planes to trim as fast as they could in real life. Both your statement and mine hold as much weight because neither of us offers any demonstration to refute what we "Believe" is correct.

It was posted that P-51 pilots adjusted trim in combat, could you please post the logs I want to read them. This is the data I was asking for, thanks for your help.

I dont know about P-51 pilots, but I do know German Bf109 pilots routinely trimmed nose up before entering a turn fight.

My point here is that no pilot could attain a trim change, prop pitch change in a single flip of a switch. Neither should we...it took more time and so it should for us.

And no pilot could take the constant stress of pulling G after G after G. Nor could he ever hit refly if he was pilot killed. Sometimes it has to be understood that THIS IS A COMPUTER GAME

As far as the people who posted that it€s not a major big deal that these exploits remain I would ask you to consider what can happen if you start to combine these exploits at the same time€¦that€s the heart of the issue on the performance gain IMO. Extra turn rate with extra power all in a half second is not real world.

My skills are not the question here and simply not following a 109 because he might be cheating destroys the whole concept of the game.

And he might not be cheating. You may have just been outflown. But it is much more convienient to say he was cheating, right?

If I see a 109 in a climb I should be able to gauge what that pilot can do to a certain point.

"Should" is the key word here. Yes you should, perhaps you cant. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

For example I know that the sustained turn rate of certain 109€s was inferior to the spitfire, so in a turn fight I know I am pitting my strength against his weakness.

Really? So a Bf109 G-2 should always be out-turned by a Spit IX? You sure about that?

Now if the pilot slides his trim up and hits prop pitch on and off every few seconds he has enough power to sustain turns longer than he would in RW and enough trim to make tighter turns. This is historically inaccurate.

But let€s switch sides now and take a spitfire and put it in defensive position. Now the 109 at the right speed and angle can turn with a spitfire for a short period (to the best of my experiences) but if the spit pilot can utilize trim on a slider he will probably probably, but maybe not.. vague statement once again put his aircraft into a tighter turn that the 109 can handle (and black out long before the 109 but that€s a another thread * )

Ahh, been listening to some poor information again? Test blackout with devicelink for yourself, dont listen to others that would like you to believe their agenda. Wen you do, yo will discover that... ALL PLANES BLACK OUT AT THE SAME G. ALL; NO EXCEPTION Dont listen to the conspiracy theorists that think Oleg coded the game so that the values given to devicelink are lies in favor of blue planes. I have actually read that in a post from a person that proclaims he knows what he is talking about. What a bunch of hogwash!

Unfortunately the spit cant take advantage of an extra boost because their prop pitch does not work the same way. Heh... that is true, they werent the same in real life either.. how about that. Perhaps the game IS more realistic than we think Still the 109 can€t engage with known tactics because the performances are out of line with RW values. Thes RW values being??? *Looking and looking* Nope, dont see any of these "RW Values" that you keep talking about, sorry.

So my point continues we are no longer learning the FM and air combat tactics of WWII aircraft we are learning the exploits of the code and the weaknesses in the game.

Oleg and Ubi might not give a rats a#$ about my perspective but I know it touches a significant portion of the market hey want to sell BOB to. None of that market wants to buy BOB only to have well versed cheaters take them for a ride while they try to engage in historical tactics used in WWII. Who would? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

--------------------------

OK, so let's try and address your problems with the current version of the game.

1. You view the prop pitch exploit as a cheat. There may be some validity to this, but for only two distinct reasons. A) Switching it on and off may allow a player to avoid the catestrophic damage that over-reving can cause. B) Auto mode will not allow for maximum historical engine power production without manual mode engaged.

Solution? Fix it so that one has to power down to engage manual pitch. Much like one has to do to engage MW50, and the "Insta-switch" exploit is gone forever. AND give the auto mode the full abilities it had in real life. But if you are truly interested in accuracy, then you also have to add in the ability to over-rev a CSP prop plane in a dive at full pitch (Just like in real life) Be careful what you ask for, you may get more than you want.

2. You view trim on a slider as an exploit. It may be. I am more used to the way it was prior to this patch (As I am assuming you were as well) But trim movements (RW) are actually more like the way they are in the game now. What most are failing to realize is that when you turn a trim knob or wheel, the trim tab moves and immediately begins to have an affect on the real world airplane. The problem in the game is the amount of trim that can be applied or better explained the range of trim motion that can be immediately applied in the game. In a real plane you simply cannot crank the wheel from neutral to full stop with the flick of your thumb. So, what is the solution?
My idea: Make the first 5-10 degrees instant trim, but them place a time penalty on movements past that point to simulate moving a real trim wheel/knob from neutral to full positive or full negative trim. That might work, but the way the game has simulated trim has always been a weak point - not that it is inaccurate, but because it can be exploited in it's current state. BUT... It can be exploited by all planes, not just a certain type.

What I think is the bigger problem with the game is the way the current FM depicts leading edge slat equipped aircraft. They are now so forgiving that common sense dictates that this cannot be historically accurate. Honestly though, I dont know for sure, as I have never flown a real La or Bf. But the ultra high AoA's that can be pulled at stall now very unbelievable in my opinion. If Oleg is of the opinion that this is correct, then he must have some more insight than I possess. Or perhaps it was just an oversight.

Finally, I would like to clearly point out one thing to my esteemed "Red" friends. For years, the "Blue" fliers have had to endure ugly bugs or oversights in the game. From instant full leaks of death, to popcorn fart cannon rounds, to miracle engine killing bullets, to spit wad attached gunsights. And we sat patiently for a fix, each and every patch. If we complained that the fix didnt come fast enough, we were labeled "Luftwhiners."

You guys could stand a small dose of patience that we had shoved down our throats over the past few years.

All these things will be fixed eventually, Oleg has a good track record with these things. But starting a new thread every time you get a virtual nazi cannon round up your rear end will not make a fix happen any faster.

Locutis_NJG88
09-10-2005, 05:15 PM
That was probably the most constructive reply to this thread I have seen. Thank you very much. I agree with you on most points accept the last point. The fact is the P-39/63/47 and 51 have thier gunsights attache dwith the aformentioned gum wad. I can still get a single MG round that breaks my gunsight in the 39/63 and screws convergence up....totally fake especially since the canopy is never damaged. Still you are right patience would be a good thing to maintain....I have not even touched ont he topic of hitting enemy aircraft 4-7 times wiht a 37 MM cannon round that would take out a tank in a single blast but that will be adressed in the patch I hope....

Locutis_NJG88
09-10-2005, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Te_Vigo:
even with flaps on a button, all ya gotta do is drop flaps into "combat', then immediately raise flaps, to get a good advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember someone saying that it is possible to have several flaps positions on aircrafts that have only raised and landing position by mapping it on the wheel. Never tried it tho, just you have reminded me of thet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have mapped my flaps to a slider for incremental adjustment but the truth is I never think to use it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FoolTrottel
09-10-2005, 05:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">have mapped my flaps to a slider for incremental adjustment but the truth is I never think to use it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, better start thinkin' then! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
But, start thinkin' very deep ... yer right, better not use it ... some ppl might call it an exploit! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Badsight.
09-10-2005, 08:00 PM
guess you were not around during the days of FB v1.X

just one bullet , even from 5-7 oclock would not only take out the gunsite but also oil up the Bf-109s canopy<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:
....I have not even touched ont he topic of hitting enemy aircraft 4-7 times wiht a 37 MM cannon round that would take out a tank in a single blast but that will be adressed in the patch I hope.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>& that above is just plain BS

your missing with 3-6 of those rounds then

no fighter in FB can take 7 hits with the P-39/63 main gun & stay together

not even the I-185

Te_Vigo
09-10-2005, 11:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">have mapped my flaps to a slider for incremental adjustment but the truth is I never think to use it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, better start thinkin' then! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
But, start thinkin' very deep ... yer right, better not use it ... some ppl might call it an exploit! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


MMMMMmmm, no "thinking, thinking" emoticon available...Oh Well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

An exploit it might be or not be? That would be a question........
Not all planes in the current stable had only three flap settings, The Corsair (I think) for one, had many more stages in flap deployment available. ATM all planes have only three stages.

Nimits
09-10-2005, 11:58 PM
I think the trim "cheat" has more to do with with how trim is moddelled and less with putting trim on a slider. Real world full nose up trim does not give you a max rate turn with significantly reduced drag, and moving trim full deflection in high G manuveres could and did cause damage to the trim tabs and/or their parent surfaces.

However, combat pilots (at least the good ones) did trim their aircraft in fights, and on occasion used trim to give them the extra control authority needed to escape a hairy situation.

LEXX_Luthor
09-11-2005, 12:43 AM
Deep_Moby, google "Bud Anderson" who writes about using all three trim controls on P-51 during tight dogfights. However, both real life and 4.01, trim is mainly used for correctly flying the airplane and not used to Cheat in a dogfight. Solution:: Don't fly with elevator trim mapped to a slider -- FB trim was not designed for that type of computer gamer hardware.

Yes, we suggest Locutis not fly with trim mapped to his/her slider.

As Fehler poasted, 4.01 trim control allowing more instant trim response is correct -- provided trim is not mapped to a slider. Also, according to some of the more realistic Online simmers, the classical slider trim exploit does not work anymore in 4.01. All but one of the real life pilots at this webboard agree that 4.01 trim control is more correct than in previous versions.

The problem Locutis faces is what the majority of competitive dogfight gamers face since Patch 4.01...Oleg's New FM realistically has aircraft going out of trim at different airspeeds, requiring lots of re-trimming (ie...pilot workload just like real life!)...thus the competitive Online dogfight gamer must now *fly* the plane (ie...work!!) instead of focusing on scoring internet Brownie Points.

Can Online dogfighter servers turn OFF the Torque if trimming is such a problem?

Jurmo:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And as for the trim on a slider, turning with the trim on a slider bleeds just as much E in a 180 degree turn as using the regular elevator control, they both do the same thing, they move the elevator up and down! Did you actually test this? I did. Believe me if I could turn a plane without bleeding energy I would be doing it.

Two little minor and insignificant things a loser has latched onto to make himself feel better about getting his a s s kicked all over the place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Recall, the more arcade Online dogfighters were the greatest to Cry that 4.01 elavator trim was not "realistic" but never complaining about rudder and aileron trim except that it was now too much work to fly their plane!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

RedDeth
09-11-2005, 02:13 AM
fyi uberly long posts without pictures do NOT get read by the majority of the community.

i did not read on post on this thread. i did start laughing at the relative length of the first post though.

i find this thread so entirely boring i wont even come back to it to read any response. p.m. me if you really need me to see your response.

Hoatee
09-11-2005, 07:49 AM
Personally,

I'd much rather read on why I've been banned from strate jack it on lyne. It will probably look like a joak. A sumed gilltee before being fowned inno sint - with owt a cort with in which to defend me good self.

darkhorizon11
09-11-2005, 09:13 PM
Call me ******ed (you wouldn't be the first person) but I don't see what the prop-pitch argument is about?

I thought IRL at least 109s had a kommandogerat (forgive the spelling) which automatically set prop pitch and mixture automatically for best efficiency. Awhile back someone posted a link with a lonnng article. I mean honestly the idea is ingenious when a pilot is fighting intense air to aircombat that last thing he wants to worry about is overspeeding the prop and setting the mixture. In this game flying the Mustangs, T-bolts, and Corsairs its bad enough. Anything that reduces pilot workload is a god-send.

I still drop 109s like a bad habit anyway so let'em have their auto prop pitch... they'll need it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kuna15
09-12-2005, 02:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
There is found one bug which allow to cheat in climb in one type of the aictraft. So we are working with it currently and when its solved - we will release the patch. Maybe one week more we need from now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is not specifically point out, but it don't take much to figure it out.

Kuna15
09-12-2005, 03:21 AM
Oh yes

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kwiatos:
Hi O. Maddox

I think I and many other PF users are most interesting in correct FM and DM in game and new planes etc are on second place.

I wonder how kind of fixes was done in FM/DM part in 4.02????

4.01 patch bring many new bugs and still have many old bugs which need check and correction.

From my experience the most important bugs are:

- no acceleration stall in planes with slots ( Bf109, Laggs, La, Migs)

1. - wrong stall speed of some planes excpecially Bf 109 series:
- 109 E too high
- 109 G-2 to K-4 - too low stall speed

2. - prop pitch cheat in Bf 109 series which allow impossilble in RL RPM of enginge

3. - trim cheat which allow some planes (109 for example) to make very hard turn at high speed

4. - very strange torque effect in different planes ( some have too big some too small)

5. - DM of some planes: Fw190 and Bf 109 now are too strong on 20mm and 0,50 cal fire

6. - weak 37 mm cannon - now is not possible to destroy tanks in P-39 from cannon and is needed many 37 mm hit to shot down bombers

7. - small FM problems in some planes:
- too slow roll rate and acceleration in Fw190
- too weak high speed handling in Mig3
- too much shake nose in some planes when
firing weapons ( P-51, Spitfire)


At now i dont remeber others bug but i think i put most important things.

I hope 1C and Oleg still care FM/DM of these game which for many hardcore players are the most imoprtant things in these game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. It is currently impossible to tune each aircraft for 100% precise. So some differences (+/-) will be present comparing to real. I think it is not only in our sim, but in all.

2. we are thinking about it. The best way simply to remove manual pitch control http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

3. No. Not a cheat.

4. corrected

5. DM in 4.01 had not changes. So the destruction is the same as in the past. Simply programmer forgot to uncheck in code visual effects (fire, etc) during tunings. It is come back in 4.02. But I will repeat DM as it is had not changes - you may kill the plane absolutely the same as in in the past.

6. Was removed AP shells for the air combat. Antill we'll have in the next sim the adjustable belts. I was against of such change, but communtiy was pressed us too much to change the belts to only explosive shells (against fighters).

7. With some of your list I agreee and it was corected. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Locutis_NJG88
09-16-2005, 08:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Deep_Moby, google "Bud Anderson" who writes about using all three trim controls on P-51 during tight dogfights. However, both real life and 4.01, trim is mainly used for correctly flying the airplane and not used to Cheat in a dogfight. Solution:: Don't fly with elevator trim mapped to a slider -- FB trim was not designed for that type of computer gamer hardware.

Yes, we suggest Locutis not fly with trim mapped to his/her slider.

As Fehler poasted, 4.01 trim control allowing more instant trim response is correct -- provided trim is not mapped to a slider. Also, according to some of the more realistic Online simmers, the classical slider trim exploit does not work anymore in 4.01. All but one of the real life pilots at this webboard agree that 4.01 trim control is more correct than in previous versions.

The problem Locutis faces is what the majority of competitive dogfight gamers face since Patch 4.01...Oleg's New FM realistically has aircraft going out of trim at different airspeeds, requiring lots of re-trimming (ie...pilot workload just like real life!)...thus the competitive Online dogfight gamer must now *fly* the plane (ie...work!!) instead of focusing on scoring internet Brownie Points.

Can Online dogfighter servers turn OFF the Torque if trimming is such a problem?

Jurmo:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And as for the trim on a slider, turning with the trim on a slider bleeds just as much E in a 180 degree turn as using the regular elevator control, they both do the same thing, they move the elevator up and down! Did you actually test this? I did. Believe me if I could turn a plane without bleeding energy I would be doing it.

Two little minor and insignificant things a loser has latched onto to make himself feel better about getting his a s s kicked all over the place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Recall, the more arcade Online dogfighters were the greatest to Cry that 4.01 elavator trim was not "realistic" but never complaining about rudder and aileron trim except that it was now too much work to fly their plane!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LExx your solution is a joke and you miss the issue and most of the facts. Your statement that trims are currently functioning more like IRL controls is a fantasy. I can map the trim to a slider and crank tighter turns and I can also turn through a blackout by using the trim slider after the screen has turned black. I tested this by cranking up my gamma and watching the screen for feedback it obvious. I pulled some hard turns and went into blackout then cranked my trim slider for instant authority and gained it. How is this real world? First of all you can't achieve full trim in a half or trim to the point that it loops the aircraft and you certainly cant do it in a black out. Your solution of simply not doing it is idiotic. You think that exploits like this will just go away if you post a solution like " don't do it?"

Your attack on me as an online pilot is obvious misdirection. I do my fair share of shooting down pilots and anyone who flies with me can attest to that. I typically get 3-5 kills per flight; my weakness is that I will almost always turn back to clear one of my team mates even if it blows my stats to ****.

Your comments:

"Two little minor and insignificant things a loser has latched onto to make himself feel better about getting his a s kicked all over the place"

Minor? Oleg doesn't think so. He delayed the patch to rectify some of this. Wrong again.

Who are you to decide who is a loser? Have you ever even flown against me? No. Get back to the topic and leave the personal attacks to the playground. Instant trim is nto real world and the prop pitch is significant enough to be used to gain an advantage that was not there in real world.

Chuck_Older
09-16-2005, 09:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RedDeth:
fyi uberly long posts without pictures do NOT get read by the majority of the community.

i did not read on post on this thread. i did start laughing at the relative length of the first post though.

i find this thread so entirely boring i wont even come back to it to read any response. p.m. me if you really need me to see your response. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's drugs available for attention deficit disorder

Von_Rat
09-16-2005, 10:19 AM
hmmm i beleive oleg has stated that to reach max turn rate on 109k4 trim must be used. hence turning better with trim is not only allowed its recommended.

and do alot of people fly with gamma turned up so they can fly through blackouts. i don't doubt its possiable but geez is it that big of problem.

Kuna15
09-16-2005, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RedDeth:
fyi uberly long posts without pictures do NOT get read by the majority of the community.

i did not read on post on this thread. i did start laughing at the relative length of the first post though.

i find this thread so entirely boring i wont even come back to it to read any response. p.m. me if you really need me to see your response. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's drugs available for attention deficit disorder </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

rofl

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">ORiginally posted by Von_Rat:
and do alot of people fly with gamma turned up so they can fly through blackouts. i don't doubt its possiable but geez is it that big of problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/smileys/dito.gif

Jumoschwanz
09-16-2005, 12:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:


"Jumoschwanz, you will note I never made statements at the skill level of myself,"


No s hit sherlock, but I DID make statments on your skill level. You get your a s s kicked incessantly by german craft because you don't know what you are doing, then you whine and blame it on anything besides the only problem that is real, your lack of skill.
"I don't need to defend my online skills" Uh..but you did anyway didn't you?"I don't need to defend my online skills to someone who does not even appear on the Warclouds WF stats page"

Don't hold your breath for that one. Sparx banned me from his servers for making a critical post about them on a forum. I never broke any of his server's rules, but he is such a di ck wad that that is how he plays. And as if Warclouds is some "sine qua non" of the sim. I fly on lots of servers, prefering those that are full-switch, I am not an icons fan. When you see me on HL I will be glad to go 1 vs 1 for you do uche bag.

"but I have been flying online since online FLights simulations were started at the command promt in DOS."

Well then you should have seen me on Warclouds, I flew there all the time before d umbass banned me.

"This discussion isnt about me getting my *** kicked"

Now it is.

"it happens allt he time"

Well then learn how to take it like a man.

"It's about cheating,"

I go back and read it again and it still looks like it is about whining to me, and a lot of others too..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Locutis_NJG88
09-16-2005, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
hmmm i beleive oleg has stated that to reach max turn rate on 109k4 trim must be used. hence turning better with trim is not only allowed its recommended.

and do alot of people fly with gamma turned up so they can fly through blackouts. i don't doubt its possiable but geez is it that big of problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Von Rat if the K can't attain proper turn rate I beleive it should be corrected. You cant really justify allowing all the aircraft to turn past thier RW rates because the K isnt perfect can you ?

You asked if these things are a big deal and I guess the answer is that it depends. It depends on how much of a stickler you are for a real simulation or weather you could care less and just to play a video game. I started th epost because I am passionate about the concept that this is supposed to be a simulator of WWII aircraft combat. These exploits/cheats (insert your label) are turning this into airquake. Real world aircombat tactics are not working anymore witht he same effectiveness because the flight characteristics of the aircraft or less like the ones they were supposed to be modelled from.

Is it a big deal? Tell me where you stand? Do you just want to fly circles and shoot your guns or are you interested in realism?

Locutis_NJG88
09-16-2005, 02:42 PM
Jumoschwanz: You clearly are very pent up about getting kicked off the server and your post here is probably indicative of why that happened. You sound a lot like another player recently booted. He was cool with cheating too. I'm done feeding the troll now.

Badsight.
09-16-2005, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Locutis_NJG88:
Your statement that trims are currently functioning more like IRL controls is a fantasy. I can map the trim to a slider and crank tighter turns and I can also turn through a blackout by using the trim slider after the screen has turned black. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Locutis , if im to quote you i wouls say "your solution is a joke and you miss the issue and most of the facts."

only if your going so fast that your have lost a measure of elevator authority , then the Trim will counter this & give back what is lacking

it wont over-tighten a turn beyond what the elevator alone can do

if you carry on turning hard during a blackout , you will only prolong the blackout phase

but then again , what else but BS can you expect from a guy who says he can give planes 7 hits with the P-63's cannon & they still fly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Von_Rat
09-16-2005, 11:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Von Rat if the K can't attain proper turn rate I beleive it should be corrected. You cant really justify allowing all the aircraft to turn past thier RW rates because the K isnt perfect can you ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


i thought k should be corrected too. but according to oleg this is how it should be.

others stated that other planes are not excedding their turn rates by using trim. when i said i think they are, but the k can't, they said to prove it with tracks.

so i guess unless you know how to properly test turn rate and show a track, your not going to get very far.