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View Full Version : Old uneffective german 20mm is back?



Genie-
01-07-2007, 11:57 AM
I don't know is it placebo, or after few patches old ineffective 20mm German cannon is back? in more then few missions I have noticed that after successful shooting of more then a few 20 mm granates red planes just keep flying like nothing happened. Sure, nice flashesh are here but damage is more then ineffective. Also, it seems that 30mm shells are also toned down. Try for example Ta183 and B-17, after more then ten 30mm granates B-17 keeps of flying barely scratched.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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TgD Thunderbolt56
01-07-2007, 12:17 PM
I'd have to disagree. I typically take an A-9 with NO Mk108's and find little difficulty in downing just about any aircraft. Before or after 4.07(4.071)


TB<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VMF-214_HaVoK
01-07-2007, 12:24 PM
I would have to disagree as well. I just annihilated four Spitfires in single passes while flying an A6 in QMB. I fly 190s and 109s quite a bit and they are the same as always. Perhaps the new stick settings have corrupted your gunnery? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VW-IceFire
01-07-2007, 12:24 PM
I have to disagree...I'm regularly de-winging and de-tailing La-5's online with no more than 2-3 hits. The MG151/20 has never been more powerful than it is right now.

MK108 I find about the same. If the B-17 was online it could be lag...if it was offline...I'm not sure. You can really hammer a B-17 before it breaks up...a B-29 too. But they are usually crippled after the 5th or 6th hit. They may not go down right that moment but they will.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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carguy_
01-07-2007, 01:52 PM
Do you mean only 407/4071?

Too early to judge about that.

In 4.05m I had no big trouble downing humans.It rarely was cutting in hald or sawing a wing off but everytime the plane got crippled after an attack.

Debriefings often show me getting a kill with 1-3 20mm rounds,but in most cases it is 7-10rounds a kill.

With AI it is always the same.Either I PK that plane on the first pass or I have to come back 2-3times to finish the job.However,as I reviewed the ntrks it came apparent that in those cases my shots landed all over the plane.

Hitting in the same spot with 2-3 rounds generally always does the job.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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faustnik
01-07-2007, 02:26 PM
I'm finding the 20mm, all types, to be very effective in 4.071. No loss of power in those weapons. Mg151 vapoorizes Spitfires no problem.

I can make a ntrack to demo if you want to compare.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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B0lloX
01-07-2007, 02:51 PM
You jest!

B0llox<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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badatit
01-07-2007, 09:36 PM
32 bit (it's the highest) would be best.
Really depends on your system...some probally run it at 16 bit (that's a lower setting).

Ken_Det
01-07-2007, 09:59 PM
I'm talking about the settings when you click start/all programes/ubisoft/IL2 Sturmovick 1946.
Then you have a list of thing to do with the game.
In that list is a Icon for IL2 Sturmovick 1946.
You right click on it, and sellect Properties.
Which brings you to the IL2 Sturmovick Properties window.
Under compatibility you get the choice to change the Compatibility mode/Display settings/input settings

I'm talking about the Display settings.
Your choices are as follows.
1. Run in 256 colors.
2. Run in 640x480 screen resolution.
3. Disable visual themes.

Sorry about the 256 bit thing, it's 256 color.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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KG66_Gog
01-07-2007, 10:07 PM
The German 20mm has always been effective, since day one.

Must have bought dozens of enemy bombers down with them in my 110G!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://users.tpg.com.au/narsil/gog2.jpg

AnaK774
01-08-2007, 01:34 AM
Sounds like your day 1 aint so far away.

And Genie, they still work<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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be something nearby the machine that is causing this problem for you. You may
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WWMaxGunz
01-08-2007, 01:43 AM
I am convinced mostly because of the many screenshots at arcade=0 and the rigid analysis
that goes with it.

No, really I think I hear the distinctly whining sound of a troll.........

Waldo.Pepper
01-08-2007, 01:46 AM
I think I may know what is happening.

If the cannons have been de-synched like the .50's. Then when you fire the cannons you are no longer hitting with a pair (or more) each time, like you were/may have been in the past.

You can now hit (more easily) with an individual 20mm round. It is no longer an all or nothing kind of thing.

I know that in the past you may have hit with only one 20mm. But now with the de-synched canons it is more likely than ever that you will be hitting with single hits.

You should hit more often but the appearance is that you will do less damage. The solution is of course to be a good shot. To hit with the INITIAL pair of rounds that leave your weapons.

If the cannons become de-synched properly, then the initial round from each cannon with still fire together. Thus the initial shots will still have the effect of an all or nothing hut.

Just a theory.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

Akronnick
01-08-2007, 01:55 AM
I think the culprit may lie somewhere between the seat and the joystick.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

---Loose nut removed from cockpit, ship OK

Monty_Thrud
01-08-2007, 02:56 AM
This is very strange, i'm finding the opposite, i'm building a mission in the Ardennes map with Fw190D's and Tempests,i've played it 20+ times and i'm finding one hit from the Dora and your down...how bizarre!.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Genie-
01-08-2007, 06:34 AM
well for example in my last mission in online war AW I have spent 15 bullets to one La5F

http://war.by-airforce.com/rep/rep_13585.html

check row 15/JG52_Genie and AHIT column

now those are 15 bullets form FW 190 .. so most of those are 20mm shells

and after that that SAME La5F catches me in a DIVE (so it seems that La5F was NOT damaged at all) killes me and also my teammate..

and no need to mention that he manages to shoot BOTH of us with 15 bullets.. (336sqn_Hman)

well.. it seems that La5F wooden plane has much more durability then all metal falling apart FW190 or is it just german 20mm?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5431/siggenie4yf.jpg

Brain32
01-08-2007, 06:39 AM
Genie, fly WesternFront, Red's have DM there, they hate it but they have it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Akronnick
01-08-2007, 06:44 AM
There's a BIG difference between firing fifteen rounds and hitting with fifteen rounds.

I'm going to give my opinion of every "my guns are porked" thread I've ever seen:

YOUR MISSING!!!1!!!1ONE!!!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

---Loose nut removed from cockpit, ship OK

jurinko
01-08-2007, 06:48 AM
The issue is the La-5, not the Mauser.

Chat from Spit pilot from yesterday online fight:
"Guys something has changed, either you finally learnt how to shoot or the Mauser is up-cheated. I lost the whole butt of the Spit three times at row."<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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HayateAce
01-08-2007, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Genie, fly WesternFront, Red's have DM there, they hate it but they have it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Yes Genie, this is good advice. All mediocre blue players have found refuge on western front servers to make up for their lack of skill.

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Akronnick
01-08-2007, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by jurinko:
The issue is the La-5, not the Mauser.




No, the issue is the guy looking through the gunsight of the Mauser. No gun is going to do a bit of good if all of the bullets are whizzing past the target.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

---Loose nut removed from cockpit, ship OK

Brain32
01-08-2007, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Genie, fly WesternFront, Red's have DM there, they hate it but they have it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Yes Genie, this is good advice. All mediocre blue players have found refuge on western front servers to make up for their lack of skill.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Feeling lonely in your prototype 1945 LA5FN with energy shields? No porked Jabo Fw190A4 to shoot down?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

noace
01-08-2007, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Akronnick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jurinko:
The issue is the La-5, not the Mauser.




No, the issue is the guy looking through the gunsight of the Mauser. No gun is going to do a bit of good if all of the bullets are whizzing past the target. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats quite often the case, especially for the 0.5 whiners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But you may have missed that he actually has 15 reported air hits (out of 388 shots fired). Taking the two high ROF MGs into account around 8 hits from the 20 mm cannons can be assumed. The La must have been quite lucky to survive this unharmed.

noace

Genie-
01-08-2007, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Akronnick:
There's a BIG difference between firing fifteen rounds and hitting with fifteen rounds.

I'm going to give my opinion of every "my guns are porked" thread I've ever seen:

YOUR MISSING!!!1!!!1ONE!!!

now tell me what part of 15 HITS in that La5F plane you did not understand?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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anarchy52
01-08-2007, 10:24 AM
With russian planes, there is a simple set of rules to follow:

a) shoot until it loses a wing, explodes or breaks in half
b) unitl a) happens, assume enemy is not damaged

I had a fight recently with a guy in Yak-1b, my first shot got his rudder, second burst hit his right wing, yet I barely managed to turn with him in G2 (by far the most maneuverable 109) with ~50% fuel. Finally, he lowered the flaps, lost speed and I fired a nice burst that got him.

The pilot was a bit disappointed how the "uber" G2 could out turn his Yak-1b (barely) regardless of the fact that he was turning without rudder, and that his aircraft received a considerable number of hits.

The stats showed 43 hits, assuming roughly equal ROF and hit rate of MG and 20mm and close range (about 200m) that yak took ~10 20mm shells.

On western front, 20mm works as advertised, 5 hits on average to destroy a single engined fighter. I usually fly Ju-88 on western front, and I'm puzzled by the number of kills I make with rear gunner. If a Pony or Spit or even Tempest flown by clumsy pilot gives me the opportunity to shoot, I will get them. On eastern front, reds will just park on your 6 and pump the shells in you until they kill you.

It's unsophisticated DM of russian planes, mauser works well on realistically modelled aircraft.

If russian fighters durability was modelled correctly, you'd thin you're flying japanese planes.

HayateAce
01-08-2007, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Feeling lonely in your prototype 1945 LA5FN with energy shields? No porked Jabo Fw190A4 to shoot down?

Now that you mention it, I have downed more RunNinetys in 4.071 than I can even keep up with.

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BillyTheKid_22
01-08-2007, 03:55 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif La5FN!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://members.cox.net/bkid/pacificfighters/p39.jpg

.................................................. ..............

"All I got was a bellyful of English Channel."

R988z
01-08-2007, 04:37 PM
If russian fighters durability was modelled correctly, you'd thin you're flying japanese planes.

I grabbed this screenshot just the other day of a 'damaged' La, it landed without much trouble from what I could see.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/R988zz/grab0000e.jpg

I know the visual and actual damage models are not one and the same but still.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

BillyTheKid_22
01-08-2007, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by R988z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

If russian fighters durability was modelled correctly, you'd thin you're flying japanese planes.

I grabbed this screenshot just the other day of a 'damaged' La, it landed without much trouble from what I could see.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/R988zz/grab0000e.jpg

I know the visual and actual damage models are not one and the same but still.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

THAT'S GOOD!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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faustnik
01-08-2007, 05:04 PM
It's just a flesh wound!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Brain32
01-08-2007, 06:20 PM
Wow a VERY GAY picture http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BillyTheKid_22
01-08-2007, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Wow a VERY GAY picture http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

edited to avoid flame war

Brain32
01-08-2007, 06:30 PM
Now you know why I don't like La5FN http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BillyTheKid_22
01-08-2007, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Now you know why I don't like La5FN http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Not worry!!! That's good!!!
just fun!!!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://members.cox.net/bkid/pacificfighters/p39.jpg

.................................................. ..............

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Brain32
01-08-2007, 06:35 PM
Weell yes you are right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WWMaxGunz
01-09-2007, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
With russian planes, there is a simple set of rules to follow:

a) shoot until it loses a wing, explodes or breaks in half
b) unitl a) happens, assume enemy is not damaged

I had a fight recently with a guy in Yak-1b, my first shot got his rudder, second burst hit his right wing, yet I barely managed to turn with him in G2 (by far the most maneuverable 109) with ~50% fuel.

At that point you should begin a shallow yoyo and gain angle on every low swoop. See if
you don't have him before the next turn if he don't wise up.


Finally, he lowered the flaps, lost speed and I fired a nice burst that got him.

The pilot was a bit disappointed how the "uber" G2 could out turn his Yak-1b (barely) regardless of the fact that he was turning without rudder, and that his aircraft received a considerable number of hits.

You could have saved him that and made him run off screaming about cheat or FM problem.


The stats showed 43 hits, assuming roughly equal ROF and hit rate of MG and 20mm and close range (about 200m) that yak took ~10 20mm shells.

Tracks with things like that need to be sent in pronto! At least they can see what happened
on detail level.


On western front, 20mm works as advertised, 5 hits on average to destroy a single engined fighter. I usually fly Ju-88 on western front, and I'm puzzled by the number of kills I make with rear gunner. If a Pony or Spit or even Tempest flown by clumsy pilot gives me the opportunity to shoot, I will get them. On eastern front, reds will just park on your 6 and pump the shells in you until they kill you.

It's unsophisticated DM of russian planes, mauser works well on realistically modelled aircraft.

If russian fighters durability was modelled correctly, you'd thin you're flying japanese planes.

That wasn't perhaps gunpods 109 was it by any chance? The have a special anti-armor mix
that was used just because of IL-2's. When you wrote East Front I got a clue. Maybe?

Polyperhon
01-09-2007, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
I think I may know what is happening.

If the cannons have been de-synched like the .50's. Then when you fire the cannons you are no longer hitting with a pair (or more) each time, like you were/may have been in the past.

You can now hit (more easily) with an individual 20mm round. It is no longer an all or nothing kind of thing.

I know that in the past you may have hit with only one 20mm. But now with the de-synched canons it is more likely than ever that you will be hitting with single hits.

You should hit more often but the appearance is that you will do less damage. The solution is of course to be a good shot. To hit with the INITIAL pair of rounds that leave your weapons.

If the cannons become de-synched properly, then the initial round from each cannon with still fire together. Thus the initial shots will still have the effect of an all or nothing hut.

Just a theory.

It might be so, I noticed the same effect on the P-51B/C and FM-2, the 4 0.50's look like horrible armament in 4.07m/4.071m.Suddendly looks like even for shooting down an A6M requires loads of ammo!Instead the "motorkanone" of the various Bf 109s (and Laggs and Yaks) is deadly as always.

FritzGryphon
01-09-2007, 01:55 AM
I tried a simple test of shooting down 20 AI planes. No particular method to shooting, just regular day at the range.

P-51D: 20 planes, 108 hits: 5.4 hits per kill
Yak-9: 19 planes, 144 hits: 7.6 hits per kill

The MG151 did not change, and Yak-9 still uber. All is right in the world.

carguy_
01-09-2007, 02:19 AM
It is the Lavochkin.

I think it has one of the most primitive DMs in the game,kinda like LaGG.

This plane has always been very tough.I posted several screenies through the years here,showing La5/F being hit in the cockpit/engine from not more than 20m.

You need to change your attitude towards that plane.Just like with the LaGG3,keep firing until you see it burning or being cut in half.

Most of the time it still loses some of its maneuverability when hit.That concerns also German planes.I`ve been shot down so many times that I can say the Shvak is not a nuke either.

Ask red players how many times they hit the Anton with dual 20mm just to see him roll and dive away.Needless to say,the ShVak cripples the plane althogh I can not remember whens was the last time I was left burning or lost main airframe parts in FW190.Both planes are damn durable.

Some online AW facts.

All of my recent Lavochkin kills were due to
-cutting plane in half
-PK
-wing cut.

From flying against that plane I KNOW that if it is in one piece it is still able to fight.You just keep firing until you see him fall off the sky.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sigjzg23upgraded.jpg
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Akronnick
01-09-2007, 02:37 AM
All I know about the German 20mm is that when they hit my Mustang, bad things happen to me and my Mustang.

Maybe the Russian birds' DMs are uber, maybe not, I don't know. When I hear hoofbeats, I think horses, not zebras; and when someone posts something on the Forums that such and such gun is undermodelled, I think that person needs to practice their gunnery, not go whining to Oleg that his favorite plane is porked.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

---Loose nut removed from cockpit, ship OK

joeap
01-09-2007, 02:38 AM
So, it's a DM problem and not a gun problem? (Maybe unsynch making it more noticable)? I got no problems with the 151 and I have replayed some of the original 109 and 190 missions too. (I mean the old Il-2 original single missions)

Monty_Thrud
01-09-2007, 02:45 AM
Well if the German 20mm was this effective in IL2'46 there would be no need for mk108...Oleg/1c, please sort the DM, thank you.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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FritzGryphon
01-09-2007, 03:01 AM
Well if the German 20mm was this effective in IL2'46 there would be no need for mk108


The MK108 was intended to counter the growing threat of bombers.

Also, MG151 was standard on late 109Gs, unlike the ones we have in-game with MK108.

F19_Ob
01-09-2007, 03:08 AM
The mg151/20 isn't changed.

No problem to do what it did before.
I use it often to test planes damage and see no change.

Also still possible to take off the tail of a p47 with 3-5 shells. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/f19_ob/ob_ver2.jpg

TAW_Oilburner
01-09-2007, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Genie, fly WesternFront, Red's have DM there, they hate it but they have it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

SirSleepsAlot
01-09-2007, 02:41 PM
I've had the best results against multi-engine bombers by aiming for the inboard engine and wing roots. You'll start a huge fire with the 30mm rounds and often break the wing with 3-5 hits. The 20mm needs about 5-10 hits for the same effect. This pretty much reflects historical data I've read.

Your problem may be shooting right at the mainframe of the bomber. A B-17 or especially a B-29 can take alot of "body" hits without any immediate effect. Sometimes you may detonate the bomb load, not always, and I wouldn't depend on it. Plus, a face full of bomber expoding will take you down also.

My favorite pass is from astern and just slightly high. I think it gives you much more area to hit having the broad wings exposed.

Go fast and use only 5-10 degrees of elevation above the target.

Coming in from dead astern gives you only a "knife edge" area of the wings to hit.

Go for the wings!

Waldo.Pepper
01-09-2007, 05:02 PM
favourite pass is from astern

Keep up those stern attacks and you will die a lot!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

SirSleepsAlot
01-09-2007, 06:06 PM
Keep up those stern attacks and you will die a lot![/QUOTE]

You make a good point. I usually fly the jets and move fast and either turn in or climb/dive at the last momment to get on target.

Always keep changing your vector so the gunners can't put a steady stream into your place

Not too bad with the jets and four 30mm. Much more problomatic with the prop planes and only a 20mm or two.

Easy to see why the Germans put so much reliance on hitting power of the MK108 30mm. Horrible ballistics however.

One last tip. I never wade into the middle of a bomber box. I always take the plane furthest to the edge of the formation and the most to the rear.

Waldo.Pepper
01-09-2007, 06:37 PM
Always keep changing your vector so the gunners can't put a steady stream into your plane

I think this is terrible advice. Turning slows you down. Don't do anything to slow you down when attacking bombers.


Horrible ballistics however.

In my view the ballistics are completely predictable! This makes them far from horrible. Quite the opposite in my opinion. What is horrible is their lack of range. This lack of range is more than made up for by their hitting power.


I always take the plane furthest to the edge of the formation and the most to the rear.

I don't! I choose the Bomber that is MOST VULNERABLE.


Here are my tips, from something I wrote some time ago. I think most of it is still valid with the most recent version of the game. I have edited out much of the original material I wrote.

-----

I am an extremely shallow person, and can enjoy the same mission over and over again. It is for this reason that I like intercepting bombers - lots! I have some tips for anyone who also likes the challenge.

For the purposes of this little effort I am talking about shooting at the following bombers in the game. B-17, B-24, B-29, (maybe Pe-8 ). So this means that you will be flying an Axis plane. Most of what I am describing applies to ANY axis nation equally? but specifically I am dealing with Luftwaffe planes.

I know you think that they are over modelled snipers, and they are. But you can compensate. If you do it right 4-engined heavy bombers are all but helpless in Il2.


Stay Patient.

Attacking bombers is almost unique in Il2. Perhaps with the exception of ground pounding, no other type of combat in YOU decide when, where or whether to attack. The bomber is slow compared to you. For gods sake take your time and choose when to attack. From which direction etc. The bomber is not going anywhere. So take the time to make everything perfect and right for you. If you do attack and you cannot bring your guns to bear during the attack, you will be exposing yourself to danger FOR NO GOOD PURPOSE. There is no point in screaming through the bomber formation at 800 kmph without getting a shot in. It happens and I still do it on occasion, but this is to be avoided at all cost.


OK this should be obvious here but if you get to choose the plane you are flying with pick the "right tool for the right job." For killing bombers, and for my tastes it would either be the superb Me-262 or the also suburb Fw-190A9 (with the wing cannons). Some of you may be thinking what about a Bf109 of some flavour? I used to think so too a few years ago. But over time I have come to see the merits of the FW. It is tougher and hits harder and faster than the BF series when diving on a bomber box.

When on the attack run - stay fast! Almost always you will want to be going as fast as you can on the attack run. WEP, FULL POWER, RAD CLOSED, TRIMMED! (if you can arrange it, and you can because you should have all the time in the world, in a dive of some degree!) For a plane that has limited performance (F4 G2 earlier FW etc.) You will obviously need to be more patient and build up your speed with the aid of gravity before each pass. The faster you are the safer you will be. You will be exposing yourself to enemy fire for far less time.

Attack ONLY from the side or the front. NEVER NEVER NEVER from the rear. I include topside (as a side) in this but NOT bottom side. (For the B-25 I make an exception!)

Frontal attack is without a doubt the best, as the guns seem (rightly) to damage the bomber more, and you are exposed to enemy fire for less time due to the high relative speed. However, a side attack is easier to time (your trigger pull) due to the reduced relative speed between you and the target bomber, and because of this is generally my preferred attack for this reason.

Get close before you fire.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/tut/grab0000.jpg

Get close. Real close! Get stupid close!!! So close that the Bomber fills the forward windscreen. Get a few (heavy bomber) plane lengths away then shoot.!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/tut/grab0001.jpg

There are a couple of good reasons for this. Firstly, you will use less ammunition. You will only be able to squeeze off a quick burst if you are THAT close. All you will have time for is to literally squeeze the trigger(s) then release them. A very few rounds will fire. If you use less ammo you can use the rest to kill more bad guys. Secondly, and more importantly you will hit what you are shooting at. A marksman of the most modest ability will hit from this close. Because you can totally control the combat, why wouldn't?t you arrange a sure thing?!

Using the gun site.

Sometimes I don't use the gun site at all. For example in the Me-262 the guns are all on the centreline. (Other planes with this feature He-162, Me-163, Dornier, some Bf series) The non-gun sight view is right along the centreline as well. If I am real close, like I recommend, then I don't really need the gun site, as even with the limited, though predictable, ballistics of the 30mm cannons rounds, you should hit anyway!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/tut/close.jpg

What side should you attack from?

Believe it or not I think it makes a difference. In almost all German planes, the gun site is offset to the right hand side of the cockpit. What this means is that when you are using the gun site your ability to lead a target that is coming from the right is impaired. Especially with the FW/TA-152 series of planes as the window frame does not shift in position when you change from regular to gun site view.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/tut/grab0012.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/tut/grab0011.jpg

It is for this reason that I favour an attack on the bombers that has them on my left. This gives me a few more vital seconds to line up the target as I close to ludicrously close range.

Furthermore, with the target bombers on my left I can shift from regular to gun site view to ?move? the target around the window frame and keep them in view.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/tut/grab0004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/tut/grab0003.jpg

Unless I am attacking from the front, I favour a curved approach from the high (right side of the formation) at the highest possible speed. A curved approach seems harder for the enemy gunners to track me as I curl into the bombers.

Targeting Formations.

It is highly likely that I am attacking a formation of bombers rather than a single bomber. In this case, I am the wolf and they are the sheep. Look for the vulnerable plane. The one that is a little out of formation ... kill that one! Even thought they may be sheep they are a formidable force. Four bombers is something like forty .50 cal machine guns. Destroying the formation is important! They are weaker individually. Each bomber I kill reduces their combat effectiveness proportionately. You will notice that if you damage a bomber, sometimes even slightly, over a few minutes it will fall out of formation. You will have manufactured a weakling, a lame sheep to be killed!

Target Prioritization.

1. If the plane has ditched his bombs, go after a better target. You are protecting a city/industrial area. If you get the plane to ditch the bombs prematurely that should be good enough. Especially if there are other bombers with bomb loads still undelivered. If there are no other targets then do kill this plane. No sense in letting it get back to base. Tomorrow it can be back with more bombs.

2. If he is leaking fuel keep attacking. It?s not hurt that badly, it is just a little airplane blood. However, this plane may now be the most attractive target as one or more of the gunners may be dead. This plane is the weak sheep in the flock.

3. Black engine smoke! If there is a lot of thick black smoke, this will often develop into a full fire. Leave this plane alone for a while and wait to see what happens with the smoke. If it is just a stream this plane is still a worthy target. However, I often leave this plane alone (even though it is damaged and may have some dead gunners) as the tiny black stream serves to mark the location of the bomber (and perhaps the remainder of the formation). It makes it easier to find them and to track them. It makes it less likely that I will loose track of it/them if there is a visible trail of black smoke trailing behind the plane.

4. Target plane on fire? This plane is absolutely categorically DEAD already! Let it burn. If you shoot at this plane you are wasting ammo. Ammunition that does not grow on trees. Der Fuhrer does not wish you to spray such a valuable commodity all over Germany. Far better to insert it into the planes of the Amis! More importantly you are needlessly exposing yourself to enemy fire for nothing! Don't do it. Sit back and enjoy the fire. Let the fire satisfy your heart knowing this Terroflieger will soon explode and your loved ones will sleep safely tonight. Maybe (but unlikely) when it explodes it will take out another enemy bomber! Don't deprive yourself of this chance. Watch it and enjoy the show.

5. Target plane circling out of control? This plane is dead and it is a waste of ammo to fire further at it. Go after a better target.

What part of the plane should you shoot at?

Personally I am grateful to hit any part of the plane and get away without getting damaged. But if you are really skillful it seems best to shoot at the wings of the target plane. Especially the outer part of the wing just outboard of the number one or number four engines.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/tut/grab0007.jpg

Attacking B-25's.

Well in the game at least B-25's are insane! They are tougher to down that the 4 engined planes. But they have a weakness that is kind of critical, especially when they are flown by the AI. From beneath they have no defencive armament.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/tut/B-25.jpg

Good Hunting.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

WWMaxGunz
01-09-2007, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by SirSleepsAlot:
I've had the best results against multi-engine bombers by aiming for the inboard engine and wing roots. You'll start a huge fire with the 30mm rounds and often break the wing with 3-5 hits. The 20mm needs about 5-10 hits for the same effect. This pretty much reflects historical data I've read.

Your problem may be shooting right at the mainframe of the bomber. A B-17 or especially a B-29 can take alot of "body" hits without any immediate effect. Sometimes you may detonate the bomb load, not always, and I wouldn't depend on it. Plus, a face full of bomber expoding will take you down also.

My favorite pass is from astern and just slightly high. I think it gives you much more area to hit having the broad wings exposed.

Go fast and use only 5-10 degrees of elevation above the target.

Coming in from dead astern gives you only a "knife edge" area of the wings to hit.

Go for the wings!

Still Zippos, they light every time the incendiaries nail em.

However an off angle approach from the side will also leave you with an escape vector that
is less alingned with the motion of the target. I learned that reading from Hartmann BTW.
He would come down very fast not straight at the target but off to the side a bit. Then
he would make "the rude turn" into the target and fire point-blank nose and back to carry
his exit across and behind the tail of the target. First thing they knew they were taking
fire on one side and he is leaving out the other! It is very hard to do in sims because
we don't have width of view but can be worked with padlock or TIR, you just don't get all
of what is going on but with training you can overcome most of that briefly. I found that
I didn't aim shots so much as time them when turning in from 150m or less off his 8.

When shooting from above or below remember that there will be less bullet drop **as seen through the gunsight** since the sightline will no longer be perpendicular to gravity.
Totally vertical, there should be no drop. Wing guns must be tilted up farther than nose
guns just to cross the sight line of the gunsight so steep pitch shooting of those should
suffer more greatly, IMO.

KG66_Gog
01-10-2007, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by AnaK774:
Sounds like your day 1 aint so far away.


And....like...you'd know? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://users.tpg.com.au/narsil/gog2.jpg

Genie-
01-10-2007, 02:12 AM
ah well yes.. it is more probably DM of certain planes then 20mm itself...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5431/siggenie4yf.jpg

BaronUnderpants
01-10-2007, 08:19 AM
Well, the only approach that works for me in FW when it comes to bombers is attacking from behind and above ( 45 degrees or more ) and fast. Easier to hit the whole topside of bomber, where u can pick and choose where to hit basicly, and the steep dive help u gain speed.

Frontal attacks 9 times out of 10 does not work simply because human bomber pilots do not fly in a straight line when they see u coming. With a rear attack coming in fast and steep u can pretty much repeat till the cowes come home. The good thing coming in from above more or less is that u only open yourselfe up to one set of guns, the top turret, wich 8/10 times dont even notice u untill its to late...the rest simply cant bear on u.

Regarding the 20 mm im beginning to wonder myselfe. Only yesterday i shot up a La5F with atleast 7 20mm hits. The la looked much like the screenshot posted, ai. more holes than actuall airframe and wings...he still flew away and landed. Still, like some say....proppably more the DM of sertain planes.

DKoor
01-10-2007, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Genie-:
ah well yes.. it is more probably DM of certain planes then 20mm itself... I agree 100% with your initial post regarding VVS, but as you've said in this one it is a DM issue more than anything.

In this incarnation, FB aircraft do not really like to burn like in some previous versions and that is IMO making DM tougher than it really is.
Sometimes aircraft can receive as much as one bullet in the right place to become engulfed with flames (not pilot, not controls, not engine mind you, just fuel tank).
Engines burn relatively nicely in 4.071, fuel tanks do not burn so happily.

Now if we have in mind that LaGG and Yak mostly hated to burn before, imagine their "resistance" now. Brain explained it brilliantly: "energy shields".
Ain't far from the truth at all.

Western Front in this regard is quite balanced while Eastern Front in this regard is - at times - really laughable.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<hr class="ev_code_hr" />http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5638/g14hartmannlh1.jpg (http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Main_Page)<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">@ STURMOVIK?: 1946 - coming November 2006 in ETO and Australia

DustyBarrels77
01-10-2007, 04:45 PM
I have to disagree mg151 in a 109 can explode or dewing everything even bombers in 1 pass.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:M98REgPM-RPbEM:http://www.me-air-company.de/crash_gross/005.jpg

Genie-
01-11-2007, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by DustyBarrels77:
I have to disagree mg151 in a 109 can explode or dewing everything even bombers in 1 pass.

got track?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5431/siggenie4yf.jpg