PDA

View Full Version : The future of Olegs Ready Room



XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 04:10 PM
Hi all.

I would like to share some thoughts about "Olegs Ready Room".

I`m interested in your opinions as well, and saying that I would like you to keep any discussion civil, no accusations of being "Luftwhiners","Yankwhiners","Fanboys" or anything like that.


First I must say, as it looks now, the whole place seems to be totally out of hand, pathetic, and at least completely useless.


What is going on there?

The whole forum is full of whining, of whom ever.
In the moment the Fw190 cockpit-threads are popping-up every day (minimum twice), the style of demanding is becoming more and more agressive. Personally I would say that maybe two of them (including Xantys) are really making sense, the rest is simply whining, more and more out of control.

One should do a kind of mass-psychological study to explain why this topic has become such an importance.
To me it seems to be evident, that this topic is some kind of a "place-holder" for a lot of frustrations and discontent in general.

We had similar situations in the past, and there are examples "the other way round" as well, so no need for finger-pointing on one group. And referring to the hopefully soon coming P-51 one has to fear the same.

Why is that?

One point might be that the threads and topics are very infrequently answered by Oleg or anyone else.
Just as an example take the "muzzle-flash"-thread, started in April, 6 or more pages long, frequently bumped, but no reaction until today. And the posters there agreed in the topic, no discussion, no flamewar.

Finally there is the "patch-whining". Bugs are adressed, patch is announced, the content of the patch is unclear, and so is the release date. It sounds logical to me to simply wait until the work is done, but instead of that, well, you all know.


Why is the situation like it is?
Why are so much users that kind of pis*ed off?

This is the present situation, IMO.


The thread-title is referring to the "future".

Well, I`ll make it short. There is none. The ORR is going the same way like the PL, I expect it to be closed in the next following weeks.

One of the reasons might be the great number of immature users over there, which are obviously impossible to control. But thats not the only reason.

As I have no "simple answers", I`m looking forward to your opinions. Thank you all.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 04:10 PM
Hi all.

I would like to share some thoughts about "Olegs Ready Room".

I`m interested in your opinions as well, and saying that I would like you to keep any discussion civil, no accusations of being "Luftwhiners","Yankwhiners","Fanboys" or anything like that.


First I must say, as it looks now, the whole place seems to be totally out of hand, pathetic, and at least completely useless.


What is going on there?

The whole forum is full of whining, of whom ever.
In the moment the Fw190 cockpit-threads are popping-up every day (minimum twice), the style of demanding is becoming more and more agressive. Personally I would say that maybe two of them (including Xantys) are really making sense, the rest is simply whining, more and more out of control.

One should do a kind of mass-psychological study to explain why this topic has become such an importance.
To me it seems to be evident, that this topic is some kind of a "place-holder" for a lot of frustrations and discontent in general.

We had similar situations in the past, and there are examples "the other way round" as well, so no need for finger-pointing on one group. And referring to the hopefully soon coming P-51 one has to fear the same.

Why is that?

One point might be that the threads and topics are very infrequently answered by Oleg or anyone else.
Just as an example take the "muzzle-flash"-thread, started in April, 6 or more pages long, frequently bumped, but no reaction until today. And the posters there agreed in the topic, no discussion, no flamewar.

Finally there is the "patch-whining". Bugs are adressed, patch is announced, the content of the patch is unclear, and so is the release date. It sounds logical to me to simply wait until the work is done, but instead of that, well, you all know.


Why is the situation like it is?
Why are so much users that kind of pis*ed off?

This is the present situation, IMO.


The thread-title is referring to the "future".

Well, I`ll make it short. There is none. The ORR is going the same way like the PL, I expect it to be closed in the next following weeks.

One of the reasons might be the great number of immature users over there, which are obviously impossible to control. But thats not the only reason.

As I have no "simple answers", I`m looking forward to your opinions. Thank you all.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 04:22 PM
I think the reason for the longevity of the FW-190 view topic is the fact that it is easily substantiated by lots of info. The users that view, for example, photographs or diagrams, and have perfectly reasonable and logical explanations like refraction, realize that the cockpit view is quite different in real life than in FB.

For one to then be told that the modelling is in fact correct, and ultimately that anyone who thinks otherwise is a whiner, or lying, can be perplexing if not aggrivating. None of us can see a bar in front of the gunsight, and it is confusing to be told that it is, in fact, there.

So of course people will continue to bring it up, both in the hopes of having the modelling become more realistic, and also to remove the implication (whether intended or not) that they are whiners pushing an illigitimate issue for personal gain. This is of course aggrivated by users who label others as whiners.

In other words, people can be insulted by a "you is wrong", or "stop whining" reply to a legitimate issue. If Oleg just said that it wasn't possible to fix the issue, or even if he just doesn't think its worth the time to change, the issue would cease to exist, because people can understand that, at the very least, their issue is understood, if not fixed.

Oleg had already stated in the past that muzzle flashes were inaccurate in FB, thus there is no more discussion. The acknowledgement of the problem is primary, and it actually getting fixed, secondary. Thats my theory on long lived posts.


Message Edited on 06/15/0309:34AM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 04:48 PM
I think it's worse than PL ever was. They should close it down, and open PL again. This will keep the spam off the GD forum too,

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 05:08 PM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- I think the reason for the longevity of the FW-190
- view topic is the fact that it is easily
- substantiated by lots of info. The users that view,
- for example, photographs or diagrams, and have
- perfectly reasonable and logical explanations like
- refraction, realize that the cockpit view is quite
- different in real life than in FB.
- For one to then be told that the modelling is in
- fact correct, and ultimately that anyone who thinks
- otherwise is a whiner, or lying, can be perplexing
- if not aggrivating. None of us can see a bar in
- front of the gunsight, and it is confusing to be
- told that it is, in fact, there.
- So of course people will continue to bring it up,
- both in the hopes of having the modelling become
- more realistic, and also to remove the implication
- (whether intended or not) that they are whiners
- pushing an illigitimate issue for personal gain.
- This is of course aggrivated by users who label
- others as whiners.
- In other words, people can be insulted by a "you is
- wrong", or "stop whining" reply to a legitimate
- issue. If Oleg just said that it wasn't possible to
- fix the issue, or even if he just doesn't think its
- worth the time to change, the issue would cease to
- exist, because people can understand that, at the
- very least, their issue is understood, if not fixed.
- Oleg had already stated in the past that muzzle
- flashes were inaccurate in FB, thus there is no more
- discussion. The acknowledgement of the problem is
- primary, and it actually getting fixed, secondary.
- Thats my theory on long lived posts.
- Message Edited on 06/15/03 09:34AM by
- StG77_Fennec

First off I am so sick of seeing people post "You is wrong" when referring to Olegs response to the 190 brohuhah. Stop being so enthnocentric. English is not the man's first language and from the posts I read of his he is doing his best to translate his thoughts. He is obviously a brilliant man (Can you say IL2&FB /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) so intelligence is not the issue. It;s simply a matter of not knowing the language so pls refrain from the derrogatory quotes...You may say "But thats what he said!!" and to that I will say true but if you know the grammer isnt correct theres no need to keep repeating it..insinuating that the man is some kind of unreasonable ignorant putz. Secondly the ONLY reason for the longevity of those threads is that the posters just refuse to accept what Oleg has said. He said it was accurate and wouldnt be changed...end of discussion. Get over it. THAT is why the whiner label has been indelibly etched on the foreheads of the folks who kewep this thing going. Right or wrong..it is OVER. Why cant they just accept it and and move on.
Oleg Maddox wrote:
Now about FW-190.
Here are several of pictures to prove that the FW cockpits are modeled correctly.
Everything is clearly seen.
This is the forward canopy section of the Ta152H
The mainframe of the front part of the cockpit is identical on all FW and Ta
planes. As you can see the struts are THICK (note: the picture was done from the position a bit higher than the eyes of the pilot).
BTW the Revi ginsight position is higher on the Ta152 but lower on FW models. It was
possible on Ta-152H only because there used simplified Revi without reticle dimmer mechnism and other frame. Even with this high position of gunsight on Ta-152 planes is clearly seen that it is also not enough high from the point of our players view.
Now look for the picture below how was fixed the gunsights on FW-190A4 to FW190A/F-8.
If to set gunsight higher, then the gunsight inclined reflection glass section will be "inside" the armored glass screen. Such simple problem..
You also suggested that we should move the pilot viewing position higher. Please take a look at the pictures below. The first pic is the default viewing position which is currently present in the game.
The second pic is what you ask for (and please be sure that the head already crossed the frame of canopy in such a bit higher position. And you'll see the frame of nose that will cross the part of view).
Given the fact that the cockpit geometry is correct you will see the top bar that obscures the sight where the target tracking is happening the most. I don't think you'll like that.
Thats why we are not gonna change anything.
The other choice was to change the geometry but that would be historically untrue.
Things should be as they are now.
And if all above isn't enough, please look for the position of gunsight on the pictures below. They say all things.
So everything is modeled correctly and will not be redone. I will repeat - we don't plan to change it. I will not return to that theme anymore.
P.S. From which books and where we took these pics I will post on Monday. I will be absent till Monday.
PS2. Unfortunatelly, I have not any rights to post a copy of original FWs docs that used for development due to agreement. For FW-190s we have so much as for no one aircraft, modelled in a sim (maybe for Il-2 we have the same amount). So please take as reference these pics above.
Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

How much more clearly could he have said it? Because he didnt give them the answer they want well then...."We'll just keep on going and MAKE him see it our way.." I dont think so. At this point you all have shot yourself in the foot because even if he thought you were right..he couldnt respond to all this in your favor..it would be leaving himself wide open to more headaches than it is worth. The idea that you can just protest ad nauseum till he "caves in" would be established. It wont happen.

&lt;script>color="#B22222";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>

&lt;script>color="#004477";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-4].bgColor=color;a[a.length-5].bgColor=co
lor;a[a.length-8].bgColor=color</script>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/survivors/images/T42-103831.jpg'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 05:21 PM
Thank you for your statement Bearcat.

You are referring to Fennecs post.



But I would like to make clear that I had not the intention to continue the "190-cockpit-discussion" in this thread. And that could likely happen, because not everybody will share your point of view in this case.


Please lets discuss ORR, and not the 190-cockpit issue.


I have the impression, that this issue is only one of a lot, and nobody will argue that everything was fine until this issue came up.

Agreed?


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 05:30 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:..

- StG77_Fennec wrote:'..
.
- Oleg Maddox wrote: ..

see above



-
with some of these threads i do believe there is an element
of "feeding frenzy" that arises or seems to emerge ,
then a few
of the "put the boot in"PPL arrive(no matter the subject)
and try and start a lynchmob/witch hunt
,which usely turns everything into a scrap about common decency ,meanwhile the original subject was smothered whereby the original poster starts another thread with a 50/50 chance of of the same thing happening again.



<img src=http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/FW190-D9-29_small.jpg>
"yeah whatever"

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 05:31 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- I think it's worse than PL ever was. They should
- close it down, and open PL again. This will keep the
- spam off the GD forum too,
- Da Buzz


Buzz those threads should have been locked and new ones on the same subject deleted days ago. Everything that could be said was said already. The man said he isnt going to change it. He didnt say he wasnt going to change it because it was not possible, or it was too expensive or he didnt have the time, or he just didnt want to. He said he wouldnt change it because he thinks it is accurate..... what more reason do these people need from him?? That reason is the BEST one IMO....That should suffice....but it doesnt because THEY dont think it is acurate so THEY will keep this thing going till the MODS start to lock and delete those threads. It isnt rocket science. If they applied the same logic to the cockpit issue that they did to the muzzle flash issue (he DID address it) this would be over but because it isnt what they want to hear..it keeps on going. I dont know the first thing about designing a flight sim...and I dont know very much about aircraft design and engineering and translating that to a flight sim. If the designer of a sim of the quality of FB says the thing is accurate...and after weeks....MONTHS of research by several people do not yield conclusive evidence to the contrary..and it hasnt IMO..then I am inclined to go with what the designer of the sim who has done way more research on the subject than me.
For those who say "Wait till the P-51 comes out and it's porked...then we will see how THEY react!!" Well we will see. The P-47 is not a stellar performer but most of the guys who fly it, myself included have accepted that a patch is coming and we have adapted to the current situation as best we can. We arent posting literally HUNDREDS of posts in the RR to try to get Oleg to change anything. When we DID have issues the ones who had the knowlege stated their case and Oleg checked it out and found it to be true...the changes are forthwith. Not so in this case. Time to move on ladies......

&lt;script>color="#B22222";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>

&lt;script>color="#004477";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-4].bgColor=color;a[a.length-5].bgColor=co
lor;a[a.length-8].bgColor=color</script>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/survivors/images/T42-103831.jpg'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 05:40 PM
Absolutely Leo.... sorry if it seemed to get off topic...let me try to steer this thing back and away from that issue. ORR should be kept as a place to report possible bugs or to communicate with Oleg. IMO threads should not be allowed to get to the point where they become dialogs between posters with no input from Oleg. If he is away then lock the thread after the posts start to get redundant. Threads should be categorized....for example... a thread for FM bugs a thread for DM bugs, etc. All bugs should be posted on that thread..that way youi could actually read the thread and if you see you bug..then dont post it...mods will delete duplicate posts.... Finally they need to reopen the PL..... a lot of this stuff in the GD & ORR is just spillage from people trying to get their points across.

&lt;script>color="#B22222";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>

&lt;script>color="#004477";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-4].bgColor=color;a[a.length-5].bgColor=co
lor;a[a.length-8].bgColor=color</script>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/survivors/images/T42-103831.jpg'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

Message Edited on 06/15/0312:42PM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 05:42 PM
Bear,

The ORR has been bad for quite awhile. I don't blame just the 190 threads. It just kind of highlights the problem. It's just a place for every whiner to b*tch and moan to Oleg. They have no respect, and act like little brats.

We have beta testers to report bugs. We don't need every Tom,****,and Harry doing it. Especially when 90% is crap.

I believe if there is going to be an ORR forum. that you should only be able to report what you found, and nobody but Oleg can post in the thread. It's just one big flame forum now.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 05:46 PM
The rules are plainly posted, and an additional thread containing specifics is bumped on a daily basis. There would be no problem if these rules are adhered to. When a thread strays into anything outside those rules, whether on-topic or not, the mods should LOCK it. If it contains inflamatory remarks toward ANYONE (yes, even Oleg), then delete it. Just my thought.

I understand that we lost the PL because it was just getting to be too much for the moderators to deal with, and that the mods are unpaid volunteers, but taking down ORR would be a much greater loss. I sincerely hope it does not come to that.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p39s.jpg


Conflict cannot survive without your participation.

--- Dr. Wayne Dyer

http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 05:53 PM
I think if it was tightened up a bit like I suggested it could work. Like I said no duplicate posts..... disrespectfull posts would be deleted on sight without even reading them. Posted bugs not in the appropriate thread will be deleted. After a while of people seeing their posts dissappear because they were improperly posted folks will get it. We may get a few duplicates slipped in since the mods arent perfect and they do have lives but it would be way more steamlined than it is today. Some of these bugs or potential bugs could be discussed in the GD forum first to make sure they are bugs... Why should Oleg have to wade through tons of BS...if we want his continued input into the sim then we need to present our input to him in a way that he can get it without being insulted everytime he comes here by some.....person. Unlike some of us he doesnt have the time to sit around and check these forums like we do. I bet aside from his personal health issues he is a lot busier than he was say two and a half years ago whern IlL2 first came out. Maybe we could make ORR only open to mods who could send threads there after checking them.

&lt;script>color="#B22222";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>

&lt;script>color="#004477";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-4].bgColor=color;a[a.length-5].bgColor=co
lor;a[a.length-8].bgColor=color</script>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/survivors/images/T42-103831.jpg'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 05:57 PM
Why not Buzz, the Pinnocchios disrupt the Fw190 threads./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Anyways it was not me, but another that mentioned the 190./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:00 PM
People over there are just trying to offer suggestions while the patch is being worked on, hoping they can help clear up the issues in IL-2/FB once and for all.

I agree it's a mess, but much of the fault for this lies with the pilots that aren't there to address a concern about an issue in IL-2/FB but only to bash those that do.

I think much of this will subside once the patch is released. Or until everyone has had a chance to beta test the new patch.



Message Edited on 06/15/0301:02PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:05 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Why not Buzz, the Pinnocchios disrupt the Fw190
- threads. Anyways it was not me, but another that mentioned
- the 190


Only because it was brought up and that ........topic is the latest one to turn the RR upside down and make it a virtually useless place. I dont know if there is some cultural thing dealing with Pinnocchio that I am not aware of where you come from (which I am guessing may be...Italy?) but here in the US the name is associated with lying and the pitfalls thereof so I do hope you are not calling me a liar........ So Milo...what do you think can be done to improve ORR? How about some input on that?



AHHHH....with some thought...Pinnocchio had a long nose..hmmm..maybe people sticking their noses where it doesnt belong?? Giving out awards perhaps?? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif OK you got me dead to rights.....now ...ORR....


&lt;script>color="#B22222";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>

&lt;script>color="#004477";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-4].bgColor=color;a[a.length-5].bgColor=co
lor;a[a.length-8].bgColor=color</script>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/survivors/images/T42-103831.jpg'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

Message Edited on 06/15/0301:08PM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:13 PM
nt

Message Edited on 06/15/0307:26PM by leonid05

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:14 PM
leonid05 wrote:
- Thank you for your statement Bearcat.
- You are referring to Fennecs post.
- But I would like to make clear that I had not the
- intention to continue the "190-cockpit-discussion"
- in this thread. And that could likely happen,
- because not everybody will share your point of view
- in this case.
- Please lets discuss ORR, and not the 190-cockpit
- issue.
- I have the impression, that this issue is only one
- of a lot, and nobody will argue that everything was
- fine until this issue came up.
- Agreed?

...../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif ..meaning why do these 190 things keep popping up in here...keep it on the RR...Leonid was right in his second post in this thread.

&lt;script>color="#B22222";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>

&lt;script>color="#004477";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-4].bgColor=color;a[a.length-5].bgColor=co
lor;a[a.length-8].bgColor=color</script>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/survivors/images/T42-103831.jpg'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

Message Edited on 06/15/0304:00PM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:18 PM
It would help if people would ignore certain threads. I don't understand why everyone has to interject thier disagreement into every moronic thread created.

Very few people argue with themselves.

This is what is fundamentally wrong with these forums. The game is fine (maybe a few minor issues, but otherwise it is fine). The problem is, many antagonists always feed the flames. If people would just ignore whining posts, the number of whining posts would diminish.

This is my opinion. You asked.

***************************************
You favorite airplane here.
Now you are all happy.
***************************************

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:19 PM
This thread is important so all please keep within the topic.

All OT posts in this thread will be deleted.

<fontsize=2>Unofficial IL-2 Community FAQ (http://mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm)
<fontsize=2>Hunter82's Tech Pages (http://mudmovers.com/tech/tech_pages.htm)

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:26 PM
A friend once said this to me, and I do not intend to be mean, or derogatory to any handicaped persons by saying this. It went something like this:
"Getting into a flamewar on a forum is like the Special Olympics; It doesn't matter who wins, you are both still ******ed."

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p39s.jpg


Conflict cannot survive without your participation.

--- Dr. Wayne Dyer

http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:26 PM
James_Gang wrote:

- I agree it's a mess, but much of the fault for this
- lies with the pilots that aren't there to address a
- concern about an issue in IL-2/FB but only to bash
- those that do.


BuzzU wrote:

It`s just a place for every whiner to b*tch and moan to Oleg. They have no respect, and act like little brats.



Both statements are true IMO.

And there is a relation between them.

I agree about a lot of threads, sometimes by 15-y-old-dunno-betters, but also (and worse) by users who COULD know better (and often do), so that some kind of trolling comes to mind.

And there are those who feel the need to do some self-moderating, trying to "help" the mods in the way they understand it.
Its mostly not bad sense, but in result of course nobody has the right to do so, and so the conflict starts.


I see a clear analogy to the PL, and I agree with Bearcat that the existing rules should be enforced, and the permissions to post in the ORR should be restricted.


But if there should be a future for the ORR, then some mods, or Ubi, or even Oleg himself should say in which direction it should go.

The way it is now there is no future.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:35 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- ...../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


I`m not surprised/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif




"degustibus non disputandum"

&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/porsche2.gif'</script>

&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName;o.height=70;o.width=130</script>

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor = "#000000";a[a.length-3].bgColor = "#FFFFFF";a[a.length-4].bgColor = "#8B0000";if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor = "#8B0000";a[a.length-8].bgColor = "#000000";}else{a[a.length-7].bgColor = "#000000";}</script>

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:43 PM
The whole 190 pit thing is/was a wonder of the internet. The tears, the fury, the passion, all over a tiny difference in view in one plane in a computer game. I hope, and believe, that Oleg and his team will have a thick skin over this sort of nonsense. I see people get protective and defensive of Oleg, and I admire the sentiment, but I bet this rubbush is water off a duck's back.

I think storms will continue to rage in teacups because we are dealing with people who are a) interested in old areoplanes b) active interent users c) fired up by a peerless piece of software. An obsessive focus on detail is bound to arise from a subsection of this group of people.

Usually the nit-picking is harmless fun, and I like it as much as the next guy. It's sad when it gets personal and nasty but it's always going to happen.

Personally, I wonder whether ORR serves any useful purpose these days. Useful bug reporting or discussion of ideas for improvements is drowned in the sound and the fury. It raises expectations that Oleg will reply regularly, which cannot be met, and this gets people worked up even more. The idea of a heavily restricted board, where posts are pre moderated, might work, so people can check over what has already been said, what the response was, and (maybe) not keep posting the same report/complaint/suggerstion over and over.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:55 PM
Nobody has made a comment on what I suggested. Isn't the ORR to reprt bugs, and maybe what they'd like to see in FB?

Why does the community have to make comments in someones post? Isn't the post to Oleg? If Oleg wants to comment on it, he will. If not he won't. One thing for sure is, it will be easier for Oleg to read, and it should be easier to get your point across.

I say, make it so you can can only post in your own thread.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 07:23 PM
BuzzU:

What are you going to do about ORR? That is the real issue at hand. I mean, everyone claims to understand the issue... So why is it that noone will take ownership of the problem?

In order to stop the crap posts in ORR, there must be a willingness to ignore threads. We can all post in this thread about how understanding we are of the problem, but unitll the one-line-sarcastic-responses stop, none of this amounts to a hill of beans.

On the point of iron-fisted-rule by mods: That would just move the arguments into GD forum. ORR simply must remain as it is, but with LESS participation from users.

***************************************
You favorite airplane here.
Now you are all happy.
***************************************

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 07:45 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- BuzzU:
-
- What are you going to do about ORR? That is the real
- issue at hand. I mean, everyone claims to understand
- the issue... So why is it that noone will take
- ownership of the problem?
-
- In order to stop the crap posts in ORR, there must
- be a willingness to ignore threads. We can all post
- in this thread about how understanding we are of the
- problem, but unitll the one-line-sarcastic-responses
- stop, none of this amounts to a hill of beans.
-
- On the point of iron-fisted-rule by mods: That would
- just move the arguments into GD forum. ORR simply
- must remain as it is, but with LESS participation
- from users.



That sounds very good Baldie, but then again a bit naive (sorry, not meant that bad as it sounds).

You expect some kind of self-control by the users?

Sorry, that won`t happen, not on the IT.

There is no "common sense" in how to behave, and if people are upset or attracted by anything, they push the reply-button and on it goes. Sorry, but thats reality.

That might be different with very strong rules, but then again somebody had to read every single post, and thats a full-time job.


@ BuzzU:

Your suggestion would surely prevent the trouble, but it would be very sterile, wouldn`t it?

And it would prevent to figure out topics by constructive discussion as well. There are still some examples for that, and that would be lost at all.

And finally it would force Oleg to answer at least some of the topics, otherwise there would be absolutely no sense in it.


And thats my question:

Is Oleg still willing to participate in the ORR?
How often did he post in the past, lets say, 6 months?

That for sure is part of the problem. If he is not longer interested or able to do so, then we all can argue day and night, at least for nothing.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 07:54 PM
EURO_Snoopy wrote:
- This thread is important so all please keep within
- the topic.
-
- All OT posts in this thread will be deleted.
-
-

So is the Fw190 threads but I don't see the Mods deleting the unrelated posts by the Pinocchios who disrupted the threads with their butt hugging patronizing BS.

Gestapo would be a better name for the Mods lately

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 08:02 PM
leonid05,

Do I understand you correctly? The tone of your post says to me: you dont want to take responsibility for your own posts, nor do you want mods to keep you in check.

I'll agree, it is much easier to fault the actions of others, but it really does nothing to improve the situation. Besides, if Oleg tried to respond to every half-baked theory presented, we'd never see another patch or a new sim.

It is high-time people took a hard look at thier own actions. Otherwise, the only logical thing to do is close down ORR, which will lead to constant whining in another forum, leading to its' eventual closing... etc etc etc.

I doubt my point has been made, but I gave it an honest effort.

***************************************
You favorite airplane here.
Now you are all happy.
***************************************

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 08:22 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
-
- leonid05,
-
- Do I understand you correctly? The tone of your post
- says to me: you dont want to take responsibility for
- your own posts, nor do you want mods to keep you in
- check.


No Baldie, you got me wrong (might be my fault).

It is not important if I am willing to take responsibility (of course I am, but thats easy to say), since it would be only useful if EVERYBODY does. We had tons of "behaviour"-threads in the past, where everybody agreed "heartfully", and nothing changed.

That is the problem, since it is human nature, especially on the internet.

Of course there must be mods to keep us "in check", even stronger as it is now, and stronger rules to force people to behave, and stronger rules for posting to reduce the tons of crap. But I honestly don`t know how to do so, since mods have a life too. That was my point.


- I'll agree, it is much easier to fault the actions
- of others, but it really does nothing to improve the
- situation. Besides, if Oleg tried to respond to
- every half-baked theory presented, we'd never see
- another patch or a new sim.


Sure (And for that reason BuzzU`s suggestion will solve no problem).
But it should be a bit more frequently as it is now, otherwise ORR makes no sense at all.


- It is high-time people took a hard look at thier own
- actions. Otherwise, the only logical thing to do is
- close down ORR, which will lead to constant whining
- in another forum, leading to its' eventual
- closing... etc etc etc.
-
- I doubt my point has been made, but I gave it an
- honest effort.


Yes, but experience shows that appeals lead to nothing.
Sad, but true.





Message Edited on 06/15/0308:26PM by leonid05

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 08:28 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- Oleg Maddox wrote:
- You also suggested that we should move the pilot
- viewing position higher. Please take a look at the
- pictures below. The first pic is the default viewing
- position which is currently present in the game.
- The second pic is what you ask for (and please be
- sure that the head already crossed the frame of
- canopy in such a bit higher position.

Hmmm - I remember saying the same thing when
I was tracing some rays back showing the
mythical 5.5 degree downward view. It implies
the head outside the cockpit. Anyway... I have
some diagrams prepared, winging their way to
be hosted on the general discussion forum, showing
a maximum 3.5 degree declination, or only 2.5
degrees if you look through the sight. I.e. pretty
much what we see in the sim, and this is taking
into account refraction, and assuming that the
windscreen retention bar isn't the limiting factor.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 08:30 PM
oh no, not again.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


Well, lets take it positive and as an example for my above saying...



People don`t read a thread.

They press the reply-button and on it goes.


Thanks Aaron for proving me right.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


Message Edited on 06/15/0308:47PM by leonid05

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 08:30 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- So is the Fw190 threads but I don't see the Mods
- deleting the unrelated posts by the Pinocchios who
- disrupted the threads with their butt hugging
- patronizing BS.

A numbwer of threads got deleted.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 08:56 PM
leonid05,

I not only understand your point of view, but agree with it (now that I have a better understanding of the history that goes with this discussion). Thanks for clarifying.

I want to also toss this in, since I feel it is important...

Post-count indicates a certain level of maturity. When a new user sees a 3,000-post user playing tit-for-tat in a useless thread, it creates a negative mind-set. One that only perpetuates as the new user 'ages'. It is important that mature users lead by example... which includes avoiding potentially flamable threads.

It has been said: You need only to p1ss in the ocean to raise its' level.

***************************************
You favorite airplane here.
Now you are all happy.
***************************************

adlabs6
06-15-2003, 08:56 PM
I really don't see how Oleg gets anything out of his Ready Room given the sheer volume of posts in threads.

If he takes only a day or two a week to review, and a good idea is beaten out during the course of a nine page thread, does Oleg have a chance of finding it?

It would take me three to four hours to read every single page in ORR, and that's WITH my being a native english speaker! Some of the unnecessary sarcasm and jest could easily confuse anyone less than adept in english. (As has already happened.)

IMO the Ready Room has lost a bit of focus. Posts concerning everything remotely related to FB are sometimes there (we've seen heavy, needed modding), and many of the requests are just not going to see the light of day, at least not in this sim.

It would help if most posts there pertained to things which obviously DO NOT WORK CORRECTLY, ORR's value would increase. Opinions are not proof, twenty photographs so grainy that they look as though a Minox took them aren't proof either, IMO. Very few posters in ORR can offer truly expert advice on the topics being discussed, and in most cases, those posters would do better presenting evidince (FACTS) to the dev team via person message or emails. Most of what they could post in a public forum will become lost in a sea of supporters and nay sayers opinions.

Try things like: If you drop a P40 droptank, it'll explode like a bomb, even timed with a fuse delay. NOT supposed to happen. CLEARLY a mistake. The dev team CAN fix it. Report it, MOVE ON.

<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>

<div align="center"><font color="#999999">
http://mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/images/skins/historical/OldCrowsig.jpg (http://mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/fb_skins_historical_adlabs6.htm)
<small>Click the pic to download my skins from mudmovers.com!</small>

</font>Skinner's Guide at mudmovers (http://mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/fb_skinnersguide.htm) | Skinner's heaven (http://www.1java.org/sh) | IL2skins (http://www.il2skins.com) <font color="#999999">

My Forgotten Battles Webpage (http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/index.html)
Current Wallpaper: <font color="#999999">P-51D Flyover</font></font>

<A HREF="http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zhiwg" TARGET=_blank>"Whirlwind Whiner"
The first of the few</A>
</div>
</body>
</html>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/avatar.GIF'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>&lt;script>d="doc";doc=window[d+"ument"];var a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor = "#0066CC";a[a.length-3].bgColor = "#000000";a[a.length-4].bgColor = "#666666";if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor = "#42524E";a[a.length-8].bgColor = "#000000";}else{a[a.length-7].bgColor = "#000000";}</script>

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 09:24 PM
In case you guys didn't read the rules. Here they are again.Tell me why my way wouldn't work? If someone posts to Oleg (99% of posts) He's not asking for comments from the peanut gallery.



Ok guys and girls this board is for constructive posts concerning the development of IL2/FB, of

late it has been turned into a whinging festival.

This is Oleg's Ready Room, any posts here are read by him and his team. To be constructive can you

all try and follow a few simple guidelines.

1. Only post here about IL2/FB Bugs, wish lists, restrict general comments or questions about the

game to the General Discussion Board.

2. If you are reporting a bug include your machine spec
ie AMD ATHLON XP2000, 1024MBDDR, SBAudigy, 80GB HD, GEForce4 TI4600 43.51 Drivers.

3. Try to provide supporting evidence of any bugs with a screenshot or track.

4. If you are posting about FM, DM etc supply as much data as you can to support what you are

saying.

5. Please do not debate or argue in a thread, the threads purpose is to inform Oleg of a possible

flaw in the game.

6. Do not post here to tell us you are taking your ball home and don't want to play anymore.

7. Non constructive threads or messages will be locked or deleted.

8. Insulting people on the forums will not be tolerated.

9. If you find a post that you feel breaks the above guidelines please PM a Moderator before

things get out of hand.

Thanks for your cooperation


Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 09:40 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- leonid05,
-
- I not only understand your point of view, but agree
- with it (now that I have a better understanding of
- the history that goes with this discussion). Thanks
- for clarifying.
- I want to also toss this in, since I feel it is
- important...
- Post-count indicates a certain level of maturity.
- When a new user sees a 3,000-post user playing
- tit-for-tat in a useless thread, it creates a
- negative mind-set. One that only perpetuates as the
- new user 'ages'.

It happens....... Since I am the only 3000 count poster here I must respond. I cant think of the tit for tat post you mention except for maybe...... my spam fenzy in the 190 thread with...ummmm..let me think...Morko I think it was... like I said...hey..it happens...... as far as this thread goes.... I just want to keep it on topic. So when the 190 pit rears it's ugly head I am going to respond to it. My spamming fever has subsided so as you can see I am being .....diplomatic in my responses...

Avoiding "potentially flammable" threads is doable but...and you can call me what you like.... I have enough respect for Oleg Maddox & 1C to step up in a thread or to a post that I think is out of line. Some of the vitriolic stuff was just too much and since it was in ORR you cant help but figure it is directed AT OLEG!! I dont know the man from Adam...but he made a great sim which obviously took a lot of thought. He has responded to my needs as a consumer in a way that I have never seen....as a consumer I guess you could say he "rocked my world" ...LOL.... I gotta laugh at that one myself.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .... That whole recent thing in ORR was taken waaaaayyy overboard and anybody with common sense can see it...it's still going on in fact...even as we speak. Thats why I am staying away..... I said what I had to say and I meant every dadgummed word of it too.

Now...... since we are dealing with people it is going to be almost impossible to fully regulate any one of these forums. We have to keep in mind that ORR is just that...Oleg's Ready Room..... if we want him to even respond to our input or be able to wade through the crap to get to it we have to keep it accessable. I still think like in most of these forums the MODS are the key. Not enough?/ Get more!! I think the ones they have do a grat job. I got a thread locked in about 5 minutes...and I wasnt even trying..so that tells me they are doing their jobs. They just need to get in ORR in a different way. They could have a virtual lock/delete fest in there if they went by the standards I set out in an earlier post on this thread and are already in the rules posted here in this thread by Buzz.

&lt;script>color="#B22222";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>

&lt;script>color="#004477";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-4].bgColor=color;a[a.length-5].bgColor=co
lor;a[a.length-8].bgColor=color</script>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/survivors/images/T42-103831.jpg'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

Message Edited on 06/15/0304:47PM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 09:44 PM
Who are the experts anyway? The ones who say they are? The ones who show photos from somewhere on the Internet? Some photos show one thing, others something else. Which photos do we use as a measure?

How about all the data posts? Which ones are correct? Everyone thinks he's correct, but who is? We going to vote on it?

This whole thing is about a zillion different opinions. Which color should Oleg paint his house? It's stupid, and because there is no solution other than letting Oleg do what Oleg decides, it's nothing but whining. You don't like my opinion, boo hoo.

Give it a rest.

***I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. That, or Duder. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing***

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 09:51 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- EURO_Snoopy wrote:
-- This thread is important so all please keep within
-- the topic.
--
-- All OT posts in this thread will be deleted.
--
--
-
- So is the Fw190 threads but I don't see the Mods
- deleting the unrelated posts by the Pinocchios who
- disrupted the threads with their butt hugging
- patronizing BS.
-
- Gestapo would be a better name for the Mods lately


This is most odd. Weren't you the one who recently posted an allegation that the posts were being locked because they were proving Oleg wrong?

In all honesty, what's wrong with you? You seriously allege there is a conspiracy, you call the mods a Gestapo (which is not only patently false, it is also deeply insulting to the memory of people who suffered and died under the real Geheime Stats Polizei).....

Your latest statements aren't those of someone with a firm grip on reality. No doubt you'll say something in return, but before you do that, think : think how reasonable your allegations really are. Think if you are not needlessly and unjustly accusing the Mods because you are frustrated. Ask if your behavior does anything to make you or your cause appear reasonable and worth listening to.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Sorry, Mods - but I felt this just had to be said.



<img src=http://www.johnsonsmith.com/images/p1039.jpg>

Eeeeeeeeeee.......

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 09:53 PM
Exactly my point in a previous post...Oleg knows sims...he has obviously done a lot of research or FB would be lioke any other sim which it is clearly not. He knows more than me or anyone else in here with few exceptions. The RR is our way of giving him the info he needs to put that to use to our eventual benifit.. if we let him use it. As for me ...I will do my best stay out of there unless I want to see what Oleg has to say or communicate a problem or determine whether what I may be experienceing is a problem..ie..has anyone else reported it first. I know this is another topic well deserving of the Dead Horse award but truthfully...what we need here IS an off topic forum...period. That would take a lot of the stuff that goes into ORR and the GD room. I dont know was it always like that? I mean in the very beginning?

&lt;script>color="#B22222";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>

&lt;script>color="#004477";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-4].bgColor=color;a[a.length-5].bgColor=co
lor;a[a.length-8].bgColor=color</script>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/survivors/images/T42-103831.jpg'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 10:11 PM
The__Dude wrote:

- Who are the experts anyway? The ones who say they
- are? The ones who show photos from somewhere on the
- Internet? Some photos show one thing, others
- something else. Which photos do we use as a measure?
-
-
-
- How about all the data posts? Which ones are
- correct? Everyone thinks he's correct, but who is?
- We going to vote on it?
-
- This whole thing is about a zillion different
- opinions. Which color should Oleg paint his house?
- It's stupid, and because there is no solution other
- than letting Oleg do what Oleg decides, it's nothing
- but whining. You don't like my opinion, boo hoo.
-
- Give it a rest.



Thats right Dude, you have a serious point here.

Allthough I could imagine that this could be solved by enforcing the rules (however), I would prefer to ask you:

What are your conclusions fom the above saying?
What do you suggest?

"Give it a rest" sounds a bit like "close the sh*t".

Is that your opinion? (just asking, seriously)

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 10:18 PM
@ Bearcat:

Like you I see a relation between ORR and PL.

Sounds weird, but somehow it is.
Seems like there is a lot of "pressure" what could be taken from the ORR, and from the GD as well.
This of course is only one point amongst many others.



@ Icarus:

Agreed.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 10:27 PM
I'd go with the suggestion of others. Want to report a bug? Do it.

In the FMB when I set a campfire to a side (blue/red) it reverts back to neutral when I re-load the mission. Is this the way it's supposed to be?

Only the host can kill balloons.

Ships are unsinkable.

Suggetions are fine:

In the FMB, when assigning stationaries to a homebase I'd like to see the stationary automatically assume the side of the home base---rather than having all German appear blue and all Russian appear red.

Can you make the scroll bars wider? The cursor too easily slips off.


But this stuff about FM is ludicrous for the reasons mentioned. WTF knows what is right?


***I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. That, or Duder. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing***

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 10:49 PM
Bearcat99,

Misunderstanding.... I arbitrarily picked "3,000" as a random high-number. That was not at all intened to single any one person out.

Sorry for the confusion.



***************************************
You favorite airplane here.
Now you are all happy.
***************************************

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 11:05 PM
leonid05 wrote;

"And thats my question:

Is Oleg still willing to participate in the ORR?
How often did he post in the past, lets say, 6 months?

That for sure is part of the problem. If he is not longer interested or able to do so, then we all can argue day and night, at least for nothing."

-------------

This is the question entirely.

Oleg is obviously trying to take on too much by himself.

I really think he needs to examine whether he can really do it all to the level of quality and realism that he and we expect. This includes responding to the concerns of the community as it relates to the accuracy of the modeling.

I understand he wants to maintain the integrity, and control of the sim entirely himself. But this is obviously having a negative effect on the accuracy of the modeling, the quality of the game and the patience of the community itself.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 11:09 PM
What's everybody complaining about? ORR performs a valuable function just as it is, in keeping a lot of the worst loudmouths and most tireless whiners busy so they don't come in HERE.

However, speaking in more general terms now, they could improve the hell out of ORR and GD as well if they would simply stop showing the post counts, which greatly encourage a certain type of nuisance poster and contribute to these interminable repetitive threads.

What useful purpose does it serve to show the post count, really? It doesn't actually mean anything; the number of posts a person has made has very little relationship to his experience or knowledge. Maybe one guy runs up a huge number of silly-*** posts in a short time because that turns him on. Maybe somebody else has been playing the game for a long time and knows a lot about it but is the quiet type so he doesn't post much. Which one is more likely to make sense, regardless of the post count?

And ORR makes it worse with those damn silly titles. That was fun in the old PL, where a certain orangutangish level of behavior was expected, but encouraging the immature types to post for the sake of posting is not conducive to maintaining a useful dialogue.

I realize this would be a blow to a lot of people who are proud of their counts and status, but really, wouldn't it be worth it? If it cut down on the spamming even say 10%, wouldn't it be worth it?

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 11:26 PM
My opinion, and it is just an opinion, is that all of these forums lack adequately enforced rules of debate. Every argument in these forums, be it the General Discussion, Oleg's Ready Room, or the late Pilot's Lounge has degenerated to a flame war at some point. I distincly remember one recent "debate" where people were accusing eachother of being neo-nazis and klu-klux-klan members, and challenging each other to duels by the time all was said and done.

The moderators did nothing. I don't even think the thread was locked.

It matters little is the moderators have day jobs or not; if enforcement is sporatic, and unpredictable, people are going to do what ever they please, and express contempt for the moderating authority.

The best way to train a dog to be bad, is to discipline it some of the time.

What compounds the issue it that when the moderators do respond, it is often with an overly harsh reaction. Locking or deleting a thread because two posters got out of hand also punishes every other person who did not get out of hand, who posted in that thread. The disruptive posters have their fun killing a thread, and they simply move on to the next thread. The reasonable posters just leave, figuring either they have done something wrong, or angry because they have been punished for someone else's actions.

A more reasonable approch is to delete posted and temp ban disruptive posters, with permanent bans if they continue to get out of hand. This have only very, very rarely been done. It is much more common for an entire thread to get axed, because of the actions of a single disruptive poster, and ten minutes later he or she is at it again in a new post.

In summery, in order for these forums to remain functional, they need solid rules, consistant moderation, and precise punishments.

The current state of nebulous rules, sporadic moderation, and inappropriate punishments will destroy these forums.

Is Ubi up to the task of rectifying this? We shall see.

Harry Voyager

&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDdAtAclWIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKFerKkyKL*!vY7W 1mvHRQw!Z5x4WTDGhT8D*!Ksv*Z*HbP*GpxTqrVF5B9TYxjko* Q/Avatar-2-500x500-(final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077'</script> &lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 11:33 PM
rgr...I guess I was suffering from Spam Guilt......LOL... cause I dont know what came over me a few days ago...I just became a Spammin mutha..(shut your mouth!!)

&lt;script>color="#B22222";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=color;</script>

&lt;script>color="#004477";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-4].bgColor=color;a[a.length-5].bgColor=co
lor;a[a.length-8].bgColor=color</script>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/survivors/images/T42-103831.jpg'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

Message Edited on 06/15/0306:33PM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 11:34 PM
Hi all,

I don't understand all this noise.

I think personal attacks against the devteam members or other posters should be looked with the greatest and most severe attention by the mods. It's an evidence.

On the other hand, why is it a problem to post documents, tests or pictures in the ORR? First, it's always interesting for people interested in aviation. Second, a document, a picture or a test can always be discussed and denied WITH arguments. Unhappily, the whine-whiners, the yes-men and the other usual courtiers never bring facts, but always come with insults.
And most of the topics sink this way in some kind of stupid school-boys fight!

Ok, FB is the best WWII aviation sim available today, no questions about that, it's obvious. But it's still possible to find mistakes in FM and 3d modeling and it should be possible to discuss it for a better and more accurate game.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 11:53 PM
Here's something most of you haven't thought of. Why should the mods be forced to read through all that crap, just to see if it should be locked, or somebody banned/warned? They do this for free. Would you want to read all the crap?

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 11:56 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Here's something most of you haven't thought of. Why
- should the mods be forced to read through all that
- crap, just to see if it should be locked, or
- somebody banned/warned? They do this for free. Would
- you want to read all the crap?

I would do it gladly...except Cartrix is afraid to make me a mod! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif




&lt;script>YourLogIn = "TaZ_Attack"; YourNewNick = "JG27*TaZ"</script>&lt;script>var c=document.all.tags("img").length; document.write('<'+'script>var msg' + c + ' = "' + YourNewNick + '"; var newHTML = "";for (var i=0; i\<msg' + c + '.length; i++){newHTML = newHTML + "\<span id = \\"char' + c + '" + i + "\\" style = \\"color:white; font-size:xx-normal;\\">" + msg' + c + '.charAt(i) + "\</span>";}<' + '/script>');</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("b");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++)if[a[i].innerHTML.indexOf[YourLogIn)!=-1)var o=a[i];o.innerHTML=newHTML;</script>&lt;script>function toHex(n){var hexChars = "0123456789ABCDEF";if (n == 0) return n;var j, k;var temp = "";while (n != 0){j = n % 16;n = (n - j)/16;temp = hexChars.charAt(j) + temp;}return temp;}</script>&lt;script>document.write('<' + 'script>function colorize' + c + '(){if (!document.all) return;for (i=0; i\<msg' + c + '.length; i++){k = Math.round[Math.random[) * 16777215);k = toHex[k);while [k.length \< 6){k = k + "0";}document.all["char' + c + '" + i].style.color = "#" + k;}window.setTimeout["colorize' + c + '[)", 250);}colorize' + c + '[);<' + '/script>');</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src='http://home1.gte.net/vze23gyt/files/JG27_Emblem.jpg'</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor = "#1F283F";a[a.length-3].bgColor = "#3300FF";a[a.length-4].bgColor = "#2B3038";if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor = "#123D70";a[a.length-8].bgColor = "1F283F";}else{a[a.length-7].bgColor = "#2B3038";}</script> <CENTER><a href=http://www.jg27.net>http://home1.gte.net/vze23gyt/files/taz_262.jpg</a></CENTER><CENTER><font size="+1"><div style="width:500;color:#FF2211;fontsize:11pt;filter:shado w Blur[color=red,strength=2)">JG27>TaZ</div></center></font><FONT color="#2B3038">[b]

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 11:56 PM
"Here's something most of you haven't thought of. Why should the mods be forced to read through all that crap,"


That's exactly what I said. Some people come with docs and pics, other ones always answer with "crappy" answers. For me, the "bias" activists and the "Whine-Whiners" are two faces of the same medal. Both completely useless and annoying.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 11:59 PM
You all are just jealous of Oleg's Ready Room. General Discussion has been dead so long. Just a bunch of smiley faced postin IBTL saluters left in GD.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 12:01 AM
Looks like the same guys to me Ray. Grease up your slider lately?

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 12:12 AM
CHDT wrote:

- I don't understand all this noise.


What noise exactly? The noise of this discussion?

So anything else is fine, if there weren`t the crap-posters?

I doubt that its that easy...


Besides that, good post!



@ RBJ, you`re killing me again!

Allthough, you have a point there... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



@ All:

Great input so far!

Keep it going!

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 12:46 AM
mikeyg007 wrote:
- The whole 190 pit thing is/was a wonder of the
- internet. The tears, the fury, the passion, all over
- a tiny difference in view in one plane in a computer
- game. I hope, and believe, that Oleg and his team
- will have a thick skin over this sort of nonsense. I
- see people get protective and defensive of Oleg, and
- I admire the sentiment, but I bet this rubbush is
- water off a duck's back.
-
- I think storms will continue to rage in teacups
- because we are dealing with people who are a)
- interested in old areoplanes b) active interent
- users c) fired up by a peerless piece of software.
- An obsessive focus on detail is bound to arise from
- a subsection of this group of people.
-

A very shrewd comment and one I agree with wholeheartedly.

Although it is annoying to read countless posts that seem to miss the point (whatever that point may be) completely, no one is forcing me to read them (and I don't very often, to be truthful). I wonder sometimes why such obsessive and compulsive arguments continue, but such behavior is always to be expected from a small number of people in almost any situation.

I suspect Oleg is quite capable of sorting the wheat from the chaff and I am glad the ORR continues and hope it stays that way.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:05 AM
I have designed an easy to use form for use in ORR ..


Dear Oleg

I want to complain about the (insert aircraft mame).

This plane is seriously under/over modelled and an obvious sign of developer bias against the LW/VVS/US.

I would like to point out that the (insert aircraft here) won/lost the war for the LW/VVS/US but it does not perform like this in the game.

If this is noy fixed i am going to go and play CFS3/FS2002/Air-warrior and burn/eat/sell-on-ebay my copy of FB/IL2 and tell all my friends/relatives/coven-members not to buy it either.

By the way, to all teh people htat diagaree with me.. you never flew a (insert plane here) in WWII/in combat/as-a-test-pilot so you can all just shutup because your opinions do not count.

Respectfully,
(insert name here)

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:04 AM
musickna wrote:

"Although it is annoying to read countless posts that seem to miss the point (whatever that point may be) completely, no one is forcing me to read them (and I don't very often, to be truthful). I wonder sometimes why such obsessive and compulsive arguments continue, but such behavior is always to be expected from a small number of people in almost any situation."

-----------

Taking nothing away from Maddox and the finely detailed product he has produced.

But, these arguments persist because of the detail and obsessive attention to historical realism that many IL-2 supporters sought, and promoted even years before the release.

Other sims were immediately discounted as wholly arcadish.

Somewhere along the line this ideal seems to have been diminished. I very much doubt it was a realistic ideal in the first place. As like any computer simulation even the original IL-2 had obvious errors and inaccuracies. Hence the large number of patches.

But if that's the case, a good case could be made for more balance in the sim rather just the same old obsessive focus on absolute realism of the developer and others in the game. Which in some pilots opinion would add to realism rather than detract from it.

It's like someone said nothing is perfect and I agree. Then why the obsessive focus on such modeling as the 190 cockpit, and other aspects of the sim etc.. in the game itself when there appears to much disagreement as to its realism as modeled. Should we to assume that one man, or development company has all the answers?

Some of us aren't that gullible. Nor have we lost hope that this sim cannot be better tommorow than it is today. In that respect we have not lost the original ideal. But are only suggesting a slight shift of focus to a more realistic end.

An end that Maddox and his team have a chance in hell of achieving.




Message Edited on 06/15/0309:07PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:27 AM
"Should we to assume that one man, or development company has all the answers?"

No, of couse not. But one man or development company has to make a descision.

Ask a question here, or anywhere else, and you'll get a hundred and one differing answers all backed by documented evidence to support the persons pet theory. At what point does Oleg (or whoever) stop collecting facts and figures and build something ? When he's satisfied, not when everyone else is.

Every computer simulation is a compromise. It will never satisfy everyone's desires. But to question Oleg's mentality or conception of the real world after one has bought the product, or sling mud in his direction because somebody's pet problem has yet to be addressed to their satisfaction is sickening.




Lixma,

The Devil`s proudest Advocate.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:57 AM
You're starting to make a little sense, Lixma.

Keep it up/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 05:01 AM
Gentlemen...Step back and look at this thread. It is a miniature of the FW190 thread. All the problems that we see in ORR are imbodied here. Diametrically opposed camps, and many single posters all of whose opinions are both right and wrong. Person A says X, Person B says Y, person C agrees with person A and posts his opinion of B...and on it goes.

Is there an answer? I don't know. I'm not even sure it could be implemented even if there were. We are a very small group of people who are VERY passionate about our avocation, and that is what it is. We can all say that we are going to be "adult" about these forums, and most of us have at one time or another, but all it will ever take to bring the cooperation to a screeching halt is for one side to say that their plane is better than the other guys.

It's as simple as that. We really are not dealing with facts here. We are dealing with emotions. The emotion of nationalism. The emotion of the esthetic. The emotion of personal preference. Strong emotions, that centurys of evolution and education have yet to overcome.

I wish we could just get along as a group that has a common passion...but I fear even that is too much to ask.

S!

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"Courage is the price that Life exacts for granting peace."

--Amelia Earhart--

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 07:39 AM
Thanks again to all who participated in this thread so far.

I think the statements reflect quite well the situation and the problems at the ORR of today.



El_Aurens, your post nailed it. Yes, this thread reflects a bit the situation over there, but then again it does it in a very mature manner (99%), and so its at least not the worst example possible.


I didn`t expect to solve the problems with this thread, and its always very unlikely to achieve an agreement of all posters in a thread like this.

But the majority of posts reflect the situation from different angles, and that is a very good thing.


A lot of guys complained about the situation over there in the past, and I think this thread is a possibility to reflect about reasons and possible ways for the future.

I`m sure we won`t find THE ONE solution here.

And I think we need a statement from UBI and/or 1C as well. Propably some of the mods have some thoughts too.

I`m looking forwards to further opinions.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 08:14 AM
"It's as simple as that. We really are not dealing with facts here."

No, people who come with documents, photos or charts are dealing with facts and, ok, are sometimes making wrong conclusions from them. But no emotions with that.

No, the emotion is to be found in the answers of the people who whine about the whiners, they're emotive as hell!

If I say for instance that there is no bar (arg, those bars /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) in the middle of the Morane canopy, is it a fact or an emotion? It's a fact, a simple fact!

http://www.pbase.com/image/14480126

If I ask, where's the tailwheel on the Finish Morane, am I too emotive? No, I'm just saying a fact!

http://www.pbase.com/image/14480652

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 08:44 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- You all are just jealous of Oleg's Ready Room.
- General Discussion has been dead so long. Just a
- bunch of smiley faced postin IBTL saluters left in
- GD.

A few weeks ago I said goodbye to these forums (but not to IL2/FB) because of certain poters and thier attitude to others.In contributing to this thread I am breaking my word (not that it means much to some), but this thread IMHO is one of the most important threads that I have seen here for months, and ties into why I left.

As usual a self selected few have to put in comments like the above that has nothing to do with the topic in hand and is there to make the poster feel important to himself and to stir up trouble. No I am not feeding the troll, but the above comment has nothing to do with this thread and is a great example of part of the problem.

The problem with the internet is that anyone can make a post and make it as inflamatory or as off topic as they like. Latley the posts have also been directed at indeviduals (including Oleg) in a negative way with total negation of any consequences to the poster. If some of the people that post in these negative ways were to do it face to face would suffer dire and often painful consequences; that is the problem Leo.

Well folks there are consequences.
Develpers Will Stop Developing.

Is that dire enough ?

If you think that this would not happen you are wrong, I personally know atleast 3 very respected devs that have left the industry because 'experts' have kept on hounding over little things (like a dog worrying a bone) and became so venomus in thier posts (due to thier anoninity). These posters did not even think or care about the years of man hours of reasurch and experience (both in game and military sim programming) that the developers have. So the developers decided that enough is enough and that developing a niche market product with the amount of time put into producing the best product that they can and then having it throw into thier faces is not worth the effort or grief.

Dewelopers are not looking for 'fanboys' but normally respond well to constructive critisism. In regard to the ORR, Oleg has not been well, Also English is not his first (or probably second) language, and when people start to take his syntax and grammer litteraly and then throw it into his face I do not blame him for staying away.

To those who say "but I am doing this because I love this sim so much" I hate to burst your bubble. Apart from the sales-amount of time to develope equasion these constant nit-pickings are enough to make the developers STOP.

This is ment as a warning from one such ex-developer.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 08:54 AM
"Develpers Will Stop Developing."


I don't think so. For me, Forgotten Battles is a real piece of art, but it's also a business. As long as there's a market for a product,the product will go on, simple as that!

If people would stop working simply because they're bored, I presume 90% of the world active population would stop working immediately. Ok, if you're rich enough to stop working now and working only for pleasure, that's another story!

By the way, there are many industries which use to pay lot of money simply to have a customers feedback like on these forums. Believe me, dev pros and marketing guys are big enough to make a choice between the useful and useless posts, no need of fanboys or self-designed advocates to do the job /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 08:57 AM
Yes there's a difference between stating the facts and whining about something, or getting all hyped up about what you believe to be the correct stat.

I personally stopped reading ORR threads a while ago, because it has become useless.
I used to get a lot a valuable info from the threads, and obviously (not unlike myself) I think the Oleg has opted to ignore many of the pathetic & senseless whining threads where nobody is bound to get anything useful from. (other than emotional build-up and eventually frustrated outlet of opinion)...

IMHO - the ORR should be strictly limited & monitored to technical issues only, and should a debate become heated or emotional - the thread should simply be locked - issue closed.
If any one person cannot use the ORR room (like the PL) in a civil and polite way for which the forum was intended - he should made aware of his missbehaviour and be requested to gather his composure or refrain from using that forum.

Remember - negativity breeds negativity - but you always have a choice to refrain from such talk and look for a place where positive & healthy discussion can be held.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
just my thoughts...
Use it... don't use it... (that's your choice)

BC

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 09:26 AM
James_Gang wrote:
- musickna wrote:
-
- "Although it is annoying to read countless posts
- that seem to miss the point (whatever that point may
- be) completely, no one is forcing me to read them
- (and I don't very often, to be truthful). I wonder
- sometimes why such obsessive and compulsive
- arguments continue, but such behavior is always to
- be expected from a small number of people in almost
- any situation."
-
------------
-
- Taking nothing away from Maddox and the finely
- detailed product he has produced.
-
- But, these arguments persist because of the detail
- and obsessive attention to historical realism that
- many IL-2 supporters sought, and promoted even years
- before the release.
-
- Other sims were immediately discounted as wholly
- arcadish.
-
- Somewhere along the line this ideal seems to have
- been diminished. I very much doubt it was a
- realistic ideal in the first place. As like any
- computer simulation even the original IL-2 had
- obvious errors and inaccuracies. Hence the large
- number of patches.
-
- But if that's the case, a good case could be made
- for more balance in the sim rather just the same old
- obsessive focus on absolute realism of the developer
- and others in the game. Which in some pilots opinion
- would add to realism rather than detract from it.
-
- It's like someone said nothing is perfect and I
- agree. Then why the obsessive focus on such modeling
- as the 190 cockpit, and other aspects of the sim
- etc.. in the game itself when there appears to much
- disagreement as to its realism as modeled. Should we
- to assume that one man, or development company has
- all the answers?
-
- Some of us aren't that gullible. Nor have we lost
- hope that this sim cannot be better tommorow than it
- is today. In that respect we have not lost the
- original ideal. But are only suggesting a slight
- shift of focus to a more realistic end.
-
- An end that Maddox and his team have a chance in
- hell of achieving.
-
-
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 06/15/03 09:07PM by

- James_Gang


JG..i get the impression that you feel you were personally
lied to, or betrayed every time something was altered in iL2 or FB ,where in fact the very reason there are changes and/or glitches is because the Maddox team are constantly trying to improve things,i suppose you could call it "evolution"which rarely comes without growing pains,i'm assuming focusing on the growth rather than the pain is healthier of course.

i'm allso asuming that increasing the fidelity even further in an already complex product is bound to have some sort of unforseen ripple effect,some of which might not become visible until it's handed over to 100'000 obsessive enthuasiasts..

now how we recieve/respond to these changes are quite important when the there is a vehicle for input,i IMHO think it's allways a good idea every now and then to step back and ask ourselves.."am I really helping?"





<img src=http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/FW190-D9-29_small.jpg>
"yeah whatever"

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 09:36 AM
CHDT, if I understand your posts correctly, you seem to be very content with the situation as it is.


You sure are one of the "serious" posters over there, backing your claims with datas, photos, links etc.

Others do as well, and very quickly you have a thread of 10 pages and more.

What purpose does that serve? Is that just for your entertainment? Or do you really believe that Oleg reads all that stuff? As being said earlier, its very time-consuming even for a native-english speaker, but nearly impossible and totally boring for someone who has to take time just to understand the text, not to speak about the topic.

You seem to ignore this fact completely.

The fact that you are enjoying yourself at the ORR says nothing about the sense that it makes at all. And you can`t ignore the fact that Oleg obviously has stopped to post there, while rare exceptions confirm the rule.

IMO we have to face the fact that a strong reduction of posts over there is absolutely necessary.


---------------------

Hi Barred!

Nice to see you again! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

As to your post, I think CHDT has a valuable point in his reply. Anyway, thanks for your valuable input mate, you sure have your points. Keep it up!

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 09:55 AM
"Others do as well, and very quickly you have a thread of 10 pages and more."


I cannot agree with you more!

How does it work?


1. A guy comes for instance with a chart in the ORR.
2. Another guy says, "interesting doc", there's perhaps something to change.
3. A third guy says "no, it's ok as it is now, because..."
4. A interesting and civil discussion begins (and people not interested in it are not obliged to read it of course).

but there are masochists...

5. ... like fanboys and whine-whiners who come with insults and of course with no docs (I've never seen a fanboy showing interesting documents) and all the interestig infos disappear immediately into a full load of crap.
6. Civil discussion is gone, topic is dead!


So my radical proposal for the posts in the ORR would be to delete any posts which does not contain a new info, chart, doc or pic or an answer with a constructed argumentation (I place the comments "all's biaised" and "tired of the whiners" on the same poor level).

So this way the threads won't be so long.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 10:06 AM
And I forgot the guys specialized in posting off-topic remarks in serious and argumented discussions just for causing a lock. And the locks come pretty fast, it's almost a team tactic /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Just look now in the ORR!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 10:48 AM
If you really look at what ORR is for .. it is for bugs

NOW bugs are things like "the flaps dont work on plane X"


Instead those sort of reports are lost amongst a heap of what is basically whining because either:

a) there pet aircraft is not in the game
b) there pet aircraft is outperformed by something else
c) there pet aircraft performs fine and others have no trouble with it but THEY cannot fly it well because of some CEM or cockpit visibility issue


ALL of these examples are really off-topic even without the abuse that goes on

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 11:06 AM
Ok, I just read again the rules of the ORR.



a) there pet aircraft is not in the game


"Rule one: Only post here about IL2/FB Bugs, wish lists"

I read wish lists are allowed in the ORR, it is so ok to ask for a "pet" aircraft.



b) there pet aircraft is outperformed by something else


"Rule four: If you are posting about FM, DM etc supply as much data as you can to support what you are"

So, as long as you come with datas, it's ok to discuss aircrafts performances in the ORR.



But the two following rules are often forgotten and it's a pity:

"Rule seven: Non constructive threads or messages will be locked or deleted.

Rule eight: Insulting people on the forums will not be tolerated."


Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 12:19 PM
CHDT, I agree with you about rules 7&8, that is really a job for the moderators to keep control of. I know that they are volenteers and are underapreciated.

As for developers not leaving because of the amount of cr*p thrown at then on forums, I know a couple of devs that use to work for 'Janes' and Microprose from the days that 'Prose were the main sim devs, let alone some of the guys from DI. They did leave developing Sims because of the 'this rivit is in the wrong place, what were you thinking?' type of posts.


General reply not aimed at anyone....

It has nothing to do with bordom at work as you say we all get bored at work at times. It is about having something you have worked hard on giving up you family/social life more and more as the project going on and having your wife/GF/daughter/son (delete the unapproprate) asking if you live with them anymore, just to have 'experts' fault finding the slightest thing out of place and go on and on about the same thing, no matter the answer.

When you have a forum that is like ORR that is a portal to the developer (very few have the 13alls to do this) for the user base to report bugs and have a wish list, swamped and abused the way ORR is at the moment then you can not expect the developer to go to the forum any more. The reason is because the posts are nolonger requests they are hounding. If you hound someone enough they WILL stay away and can you really blame them ?

IL2/FB apart from being one of the best sims ever released, has the level of developer support that is second to none. I am not saying this as a fanboy, I am saying this after over 10years as a game developer.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 12:39 PM
To continue from the ORR, good job, Leonid, fast and efficient. Very good teamwork with the mods /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 12:48 PM
Yes CHDT, I agree so far, that this was a perfect example of what this thread is about.


Willeys 190-thread was complete unnecessary, and he knew that the thread would see a lock, he mentioned it himself in his original post.

The thread in question:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvppe


So this was a perfect example for spamming the forum with the only result to annoy other people AND the mods.

What is it good for?



And then CHDT, I don`t observe that for the first time:

You seem to have a passion for arguing.

Somehow I feel that this "passion" is a great part of the problem.







Message Edited on 06/16/0301:25PM by leonid05

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 12:57 PM
I'm rather tolerant and I see no problem discussing facts. The problem is perhaps by people who can't stand opposite opinions and reply not on facts but with personal remarks. As I don't like personal remarks, I'm out off this topic too. Good job, Leonid, you're rather good with this job!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:06 PM
Read EURO_Snoopy`s post in that thread and you know why it was locked.

It has nothing to do with me.


Anyway, thanks again for that perfect example.
It helps a lot to understand what this thread is about. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



@ Barred:

Great post. You nailed it.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:56 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- leonid05,
-
- I not only understand your point of view, but agree
- with it (now that I have a better understanding of
- the history that goes with this discussion). Thanks
- for clarifying.
-
- I want to also toss this in, since I feel it is
- important...
-
- Post-count indicates a certain level of maturity.
- When a new user sees a 3,000-post user playing
- tit-for-tat in a useless thread, it creates a
- negative mind-set. One that only perpetuates as the
- new user 'ages'. It is important that mature users
- lead by example... which includes avoiding
- potentially flamable threads.
-
-

I agree with this too. Not trying to step on toes but I think this has alot to do with it. Some People have an EGO, oh no say it isn't so, but they do. They see these high poster Dudes and they want to be just like them and better. So they lay out a speel as often as they can to try and atain that goal.

No I've been in these forums for a 1 1/2 years at least with this name before was Toad465 and I have no where near that amount. I'm on here at least 3 days a week, I have read nearly all of it. But I guess I don't have much to say. Or I have a life outside of all this and can't spend the time to compete at the level of Bearcat. No offense intended M8 I think you know that already though.I consider you as one of my friends on here and you are just an example. I know your mature enough to except that.
Some of these guys post in other forums on UBI and it all adds up on their rank its got to be time consuming to say the least.

I think the Rank should be changed to, and rated from your sign up date.

As far as ORR I think BUZZU is close. I would just add this to it.

You post.

Oleg or team replies,Then either locks the thread or opens it up for more discusion, and when theres enough its locked.

What ever is said is final. Move on, then you would be able to go in there scan 2 or 3 pages and find out everything you want to know about recent Bugs and Fixes.



<Center>http://www.geocities.com/mad_squadron/index.html
<Center>http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RADeAnwUNsF!xmzi74V7fM0zsNZLrdqP6EJfhM3yD3f!sLEO4 CdvQZqaQWugce7lDgv!bcKdQTASFYHmbE1x5F2s6VkEKqZOH67 8VupJ4y0/Toad's.jpg?dc=4675413127089644669
</a>
<Center>
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RgDdAo4Ue9rMgrGRpm67Ij*O8isG1PQXDYqaZ*pZOuenHzj31 K61WxrXQmZKj6P0FGhxrm*4FYgMBI6aoAIC6oqXGW0NPjerG5o II1eYIkg/tranflag.gif?dc=4675417702733748611';var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>
&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor ="#666600";a[a.length-3].bgColor = "#660000";a[a.length-4].bgColor = "#003300";if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor = "#2B3038";a[a.length-8].bgColor = "#000000";}else{a[a.length-7].bgColor = "#000000";}</script>

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 05:38 PM
A desperate effort to save this one from disappearing by a (first and last) "bump".../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Anyway, propably everything possible is said.

Thanks to all who shared their thoughts, I enjoyed reading every post.

Further opinions are of course welcome!



I had the idea to come to some kind of "conclusion" after reading all this, but to be honest, I find it difficult to do.

And then again its not up to me to do so, not up to us.

Its Ubi`s business, and Oleg`s of course.

But maybe some of the opinions and thoughts have been noticed and will be taken into their count.

And if it was only for 1%, it would be worth all that typing. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

As I said, further opinions and discussion always welcome.

Thank you all for participating!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 07:35 PM
Barred wrote:
- RayBanJockey wrote:
-- You all are just jealous of Oleg's Ready Room.
-- General Discussion has been dead so long. Just a
-- bunch of smiley faced postin IBTL saluters left in
-- GD.
-
- A few weeks ago I said goodbye to these forums (but
- not to IL2/FB) because of certain poters and thier
- attitude to others.In contributing to this thread I
- am breaking my word (not that it means much to
- some), but this thread IMHO is one of the most
- important threads that I have seen here for months,
- and ties into why I left.

Wow dude you need to write a book. 'The Trials and Tribulations of Barred's Existence in Video Game Forums"


- As usual a self selected few have to put in comments
- like the above that has nothing to do with the topic
- in hand and is there to make the poster feel
- important to himself and to stir up trouble. No I am
- not feeding the troll, but the above comment has
- nothing to do with this thread and is a great
- example of part of the problem.

Some people just have these pre-concieved notions that they force the world to fit into. If you could see things the way I see things you would know exactly what this thread is about, as I have previously stated. For a start if this thread is about ORR, then why not put it in ORR? And why even bring it up in the first place? It all ties into my theory that some people have an GD-centric view of the world. their homepage on their browser is the GD. They think all forums revolve around the GD. And once another forum becomes hot and the real place to be, they can't stand it so go on a tirade and create a thread like this. It's like when I go to my friends house. We are playing outside and his dog jumps into the pool. His other dog doesn't like to jump in the pool so when the first dog tries to come out the 2nd one tries to harrass him, as if to say "quit jumping in the pool and being the center of attention!"

Well, the GD has devolved into just a bunch of saluting IBTL posting smiley faced animation post count *****s, with nothing better to talk about than other forums, P51's and the usual "Where are you from/whats your job/what does boom and zoom mean" drivel. It's no surprise people are leaving the GD but don't blame it on me. I am one of the few who still provide content.


- The problem with the internet is that anyone can
- make a post and make it as inflamatory or as off
- topic as they like. Latley the posts have also been
- directed at indeviduals (including Oleg) in a
- negative way with total negation of any consequences
- to the poster. If some of the people that post in
- these negative ways were to do it face to face would
- suffer dire and often painful consequences; that is
- the problem Leo.
- Well folks there are consequences.
- Develpers Will Stop Developing.
-
- Is that dire enough ?
- If you think that this would not happen you are
- wrong, I personally know atleast 3 very respected
- devs that have left the industry because 'experts'
- have kept on hounding over little things (like a dog
- worrying a bone) and became so venomus in thier
- posts (due to thier anoninity). These posters did
- not even think or care about the years of man hours
- of reasurch and experience (both in game and
- military sim programming) that the developers have.
- So the developers decided that enough is enough and
- that developing a niche market product with the
- amount of time put into producing the best product
- that they can and then having it throw into thier
- faces is not worth the effort or grief.
-
- Dewelopers are not looking for 'fanboys' but
- normally respond well to constructive critisism. In
- regard to the ORR, Oleg has not been well, Also
- English is not his first (or probably second)
- language, and when people start to take his syntax
- and grammer litteraly and then throw it into his
- face I do not blame him for staying away.
-
- To those who say "but I am doing this because I love
- this sim so much" I hate to burst your bubble. Apart
- from the sales-amount of time to develope equasion
- these constant nit-pickings are enough to make the
- developers STOP.
-
- This is ment as a warning from one such
- ex-developer.
-

I am sorry to hear that you are so bitter. Let's just hope Oleg & Co aren't like you and make enough money to be happy with what they are doing.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 08:07 PM
Actually, my homepage is a Grand Prix Legends forum.

This is just for you Ray../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 08:48 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:

- Some people just have these pre-concieved notions
- that they force the world to fit into. If you could
- see things the way I see things you would know
- exactly what this thread is about, as I have
- previously stated. For a start if this thread is
- about ORR, then why not put it in ORR? And why even
- bring it up in the first place? It all ties into my
- theory that some people have an GD-centric view of
- the world. their homepage on their browser is the
- GD. They think all forums revolve around the GD.
- And once another forum becomes hot and the real
- place to be, they can't stand it so go on a tirade
- and create a thread like this.



Well, since you are referring to me (as being "guilty" of iniciating this thread) maybe I`m allowed to answer you.

I wouldn`t say that I am known here on this forum like a coloured dog, but those who ever had to do with me mostly know that I am german. YOU could know, as frequently as you`re spamming these boards. And even if you don`t, you could easily figure out that english isn`t my native language, as I personally wouldn`t expect it to be "perfect".

Just for this reasons your "theory" of me having my "homepage" here at the GD is completely ridiculous, as I am more like a guest here, infrequently, and this is only one of several boards I visit, just like the ORR and others.
My "homepage" is in Germany, just for your interest.

So why not posting this thread in the ORR?
Well, you should know the rules over there. Maybe the mods would have allowed it, maybe not. And actually I hate it to post a longer serious post just to see it locked immediately. Any different wouldn`t make sense to me, sorry. And why not in the GD? After thinking about shortly even YOU could come to the conclusion that there is a relation between these two boards. Just give it a try...

And why even bring it up "in the first place"?
Well, to make it short: Read the thread, count the number of serious posters who have taken their time to write longer posts about this topic and you can figure it out by yourself easily.


The rest of your post that I didn`t quote is nothing but crap. I`d like to add "as usual", but well, you know...


After your first slightly funny post in this thread I thought you might have a point there.

But after your "pointing out your point" you proved me wrong.


As usual...

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 09:18 PM
James Gang wrote....

"You're starting to make a little sense, Lixma. Keep it up"

I'm suprised you agreed with my post James as it was aimed fairly specifically.

Lixma,

The Devil`s proudest Advocate.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 11:26 PM
RBJ,

This thread would be 'off topic' in ORR, thats why it was posted here.

Otherwise, I think your assesment of some peoples' excentricities (sp?) is correct. The problem is: some things are best left unsaid.

Punishing ignorance does nothing to overcome it. Ignore it and it will go away... like your neighbors dog who keeps jumping in the pool: if the other dog would stop paying attention to it, it will get message.

CHDT,

You have a valid point. I understand your frustration with the situation. It is very unfair for others to hi-jack your threads, but the only way you will ever overcome is to ignore these people.

You can't change other people, only yourself. If your approach is failing, rethink it, otherwise, pointing fingers and laying blame just leads people to believe that you enjoy a good argument.

***************************************
You favorite airplane here.
Now you are all happy.
***************************************

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:20 AM
I thought everybody had learned to ignore RBJ and his ramblings by now? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

----------------------------------------

Proud to be a Minnesota logger.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:42 AM
I have an idea, make ORR a seperate registration, and ban those that misbehave. The ability to interact with the Dev is important, and fairly unique to just a few Games/sims and in place of all of us losing that priviledge just take it from trouble makers. Make it business like in there.

&lt;script>d="doc";doc=window[d+"ument"];</script>
&lt;script> var a=doc.all.tags("b");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++)if[a[i].innerHTML.indexOf["TurboCrotch")!=-1)var o=a[i];o.innerHTML="RatFink";</script>
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://www.goobage.com/pics/skull.gif'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>
&lt;script>var
a=doc.body.getElementsByTagName("u");for(vari=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].innerHTML.indexOf["TurboCrotch")!=-1)a[i].style.color="#000000"}</script>
&lt;script>a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-5].bgColor="#000000";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-8].bgColor="#595959";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-4].bgColor="#595959";a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor="#000000";</script>
<center>http://www.goobage.com/pics/D_Rat.gif </center>
<center><font><font size=1 ><font color=000000>"Fear accompanies the possibility of death. Calm shepherd's the certainty of it."</font></font size></center>
<center><font><font size=1 ><font color=000000>Ka D'Argo</font></font size></center>

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:31 AM
I love everything about this game... faults included.. without IL2/FB, where would we be?


The positive outweigh the negative ten fold, and I really think people can get worked up/obessed about things this good. Post a good request and pray it gets changed.

Heck I've got my own gripe... like the design teams choice of Russian/Allied flyable bomber.. Sure it's funny looking, and nostalgic.. but dang, couldn't they have gone with a more current bomber like the DB-3 or SB, or the PE... heck I bet the PE would even satify alot of the guys requesing the B-17!

So we all have different things we want.. "You can't always get what you waaant.. but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need!"

F U N

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:56 PM
Firstly sorry about what is to come Leonid, but I am not going to let RBJ's post go.

RBJ, for starters I am not a bitter person,and at first I found you post amusing in a twisted way and unlike you I actually have a sence of humour.

To repleatedly barge into threads and post the same innane one sided BS time after time is a troll. You decidedt to make this personal.

It is not my ore other developers fault if you do not have the brain power to see how much nit-picking from 'experts' along with the piracy issue (different subject but linked) does actually make developers loses hart.

You go one about my writing a book about "The trials and Tribulations........ (long words for you I am suprised you know them)" Thanks atleast I can write and do not have to fall back on a broken record (pre-curser to the CD) to get my point over.

Oh as to the money side of things I make a very nice living thankyou developing the things you like to exploit,I just do not do it for a single company any more /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I also have the benifit to work when I like. So go and do what your sig sugests you are doing you will be happier.

Bye Folks

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:59 PM
It is getting ridiculous in there more people have GD discussions in there and it seems more active then GD mods should get in there and clean it up.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter


&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];}</script>
&lt;script>var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src='http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/Leadsk1.gif'</script>