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XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 09:37 PM
were the bullets of the i-16 realy green?

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A to the K to 4 to the 7 little
devils dont go heaven Freedom got a AK
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A to the K to 4 to the 7 little
devils dont go heaven Freedom got a AK
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XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 09:37 PM
were the bullets of the i-16 realy green?

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A to the K to 4 to the 7 little
devils dont go heaven Freedom got a AK
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A to the K to 4 to the 7 little
devils dont go heaven Freedom got a AK
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XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 09:43 PM
those are thracers. they where special bullets made to glow so, the pilot could see where his shots landed. not every bullet was a tracer, only one in three or so. Tracers do not have a great damage effect.

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2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
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XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 10:57 PM
In some cases...or in all im not sure...tracers are special bullets coated in phosphorous to glow cooly to show a person where his shots are going. I guess green was the just the color the russians chose.....or maybe oleg is wrong i dont know.

Steaks
375th FS

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XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 10:57 PM
Yes. If they make a WWI version of FB they'll have to quit the tracers. They weren't used by then. And the same goes for the earliest aircraft in Spanish Civil War. The first planes using tracers in SCW were Nationalist aircraft: Fiat CR.32 and He 51 onwards. Republican AF used them seldom, because they were scarce.

A challenge for aiming! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 11:15 PM
Well, the coating of the bullet is not entirely correct. Tracers are made by putting a chemical that reacts to air (Oxygen) in the back of the bullet cavity. The chemical does not affect the trajectory or hitting power of the bullet, contrary to belief. It merely ignites as it comes in contact with oxygen. This glow is indeed used to aid in aiming.

Soviet pact countries use a chemical that becomes green when it ignites (Potassium I think - but I might be wrong). Other countries use Phosphorous which ignites a red-orange color.

There are a host of other chemicals that were used that glowed blue, red, and yellow. I am not a chemist, so I cant tell you what chemical does what, but the principal is the same for all. The chemical has to be sufficiently volitile that it ignites when it hits oxygen.

If you putt a tracer bullet apart, it will ignite immediately (Which is actually fun to do - but slightly dangerous)

Fehler

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 11:48 PM
Hey Dux, are you sure? I remember Biggles using tracers in his Camel.......(man that was long ago.)
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Of course Cptn Johns could've been wrong.



It's only funny til someone loses an eye....then it's hilarious

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XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 12:03 AM
Yeah, the TIE Fighters also use green tracers. Is the Empire part of the Soviet Pact? Jabba reminds me of chairman Mao... mmm, maybe I shouldn't have dinner those spicy sausages, after all. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 01:42 AM
<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/140903-Green Tracers.jpg


<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/140903-A Close Shave sml.jpg


ZAP! ZAP!

I kinda like 'em /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif




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XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 01:55 AM
tracer colors are very wrong in fb and look spacegame xwingish most of all from the 190 and i153 i16 mig3ams.

If you ever seen colored tracers fired on weapons and ammo they look whiteish with a very very light fade of the tracer color especially german and russian but the .50s red did stand out more over the white but they also used magnesium color tracers "white" for .50s as im sure for the others as well.

also .303s and .50s should look different in tracer size. But as long as muzzle flashes are huge I doubt tracer colors will still look like your flying a tie fighter or xwing






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Message Edited on 09/14/0305:28AM by LeadSpitter_

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 07:06 AM
they are tracers. The same as bullets, they just glow. An interesting addition would be to choose tracers, no tracers. You can pinpoint your opponent with em. And he can pinpoint you.

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>Psalms

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 08:22 AM
If you watch the tail gunner on the Blenheim Mk I, you'll see he has no tracers - the first warning you get is when they start bouncing into your nose.

Choctaw111
01-24-2004, 05:47 PM
tracers do not really have a shape to them like in FB. All they look like is just a streak just like if you would draw a line with a pencil. I have literally seen hundreds of thousands of tracers from many different countries with all of my years in the US Army Covert Ops. I have seen them all and even though my Army days are behind me I can still say that a lot of effort was taken in FB to make them look fake.

Choctaw111
01-24-2004, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Well, the coating of the bullet is not entirely correct. Tracers are made by putting a chemical that reacts to air (Oxygen) in the back of the bullet cavity. The chemical does not affect the trajectory or hitting power of the bullet, contrary to belief. It merely ignites as it comes in contact with oxygen. This glow is indeed used to aid in aiming.

Soviet pact countries use a chemical that becomes green when it ignites (Potassium I think - but I might be wrong). Other countries use Phosphorous which ignites a red-orange color.

There are a host of other chemicals that were used that glowed blue, red, and yellow. I am not a chemist, so I cant tell you what chemical does what, but the principal is the same for all. The chemical has to be sufficiently volitile that it ignites when it hits oxygen.

If you putt a tracer bullet apart, it will ignite immediately (Which is actually fun to do - but slightly dangerous)

Fehler<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tracers DO NOT IGNITE BY A REACTION TO AIR. THEY WILL NOT IGNITE FROM PULLING THEM APART!!!!! they are ignited by the extreme heat from the gunpowder burning!!! I have pulled many tracers apart just to light them with a blow torch and watch them burn. It is a lot of fun. Me and my Army buddies would do that a lot for something to do when there was no one to kill.

noshens
01-24-2004, 06:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Choctaw111:
Me and my Army buddies would do that a lot for something to do when there was no one to kill.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, have you tried to play chess?

v1ader
01-24-2004, 10:26 PM
Tracers do lose weight while in transit, and that quite seriously affects their trajectory. This was an issue for AAA gunners, not so much for pilots who fight at short ranges where the difference in trajectory is irrelevant. Besides, most tracer burns out fairly shortly, on a 7.62 round the burnout is just under one kilometer.

v1ader
01-24-2004, 10:38 PM
Oh, and whilst we're on subject, the tracers in IL2 look realistic enough to me. That is indeed what they look like when they are travelling away from you. Particularly the heavier rounds - 30mm for example. Not sure about smoke, modern rounds certainly dont smoke as much - if at all, but WWII footage seems to support it. Yellow tracer is far brighter than our monitors will ever display, but so is the sun, right? Notice that in the sim the sun+glare is a little too 'white'. Nothing Oleg can do about that..

Capt.LoneRanger
01-25-2004, 06:07 AM
By far the best travers I ever saw in a game, were in B17 ][ Mighty Eighth. They really rocked.


greets
Capt.LoneRanger

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oFZo
01-25-2004, 07:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:

If you putt a tracer bullet apart, it will ignite immediately (Which is actually fun to do - but slightly dangerous)

Fehler<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I happen to own a couple of cartridges from "a British bomber", I don't know calibre, type or whatever as I'm nothing near an ammo specialist and all I know is what I'm told by the person who gave them to me (squat).

A lot of WW2 aircraft were dug up from the fields in my area, as lots of 'em were shot down and the ground is very soft.

Anyway, one of them seems to be a tracer as there is a cavity in the back filled with a red/brown substance. Can I assume it is a tracer and the phosphor or whatever it is is chemically altered after 50 or so years in the ground and no longer dangerous, or is it a bit risky having one standing on your table? Or could it be something completely different? (I can't think of a reason to put anything else in there, but like I said, all I know is that I don't know.)

have pics, no host.

-oFZo
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LimaZulu
01-25-2004, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Choctaw111:
‚"I have literally seen hundreds of thousands of tracers from many different countries with all of my years in the US Army Covert Ops.‚"Ě

and -

"Me and my Army buddies would do that a lot for something to do when there was no one to kill."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh God, thanks for the laugh Choctaw111! Reading online forums where punks spew out idiotic poser crap really makes me laugh. No kidding, I really did laugh out loud! I especially liked the "when there was no one to kill" line, definately a classic.

Keep 'em coming, say no to drugs and stay in school!

LZ

Choctaw111
01-25-2004, 12:47 PM
It almost sounds like you don't beleive me LimaZulu. I have given more then 12 years of my life defending freedom and democracy around the globe putting my life on the line to make this world a safer place for everyone. It seems that you are saying that I am just making this up to look good. If you are saying that I am am idiotic poser because I am proud to say what I have done for the Military then you have no idea what freedom really means. There have been many people killed to keep people free. Look at the game we are talking about here. It is part of the largest effort the world has ever seen to keep freedom alive. I have served my country and this world with dignity and honor!!! I have been having trouble posting pictures here but if I could I would post some pictures of a few of my exploits around the globe. It is some really good stuff. I have seen more death and destruction than I feel anyone should and to think that I was trained to wreak havok on the bad guys. I feel kind of badly about it now looking back on it but I guess that they deserved what was done to them. The only good terrorist is a dead one right. I am glad to have done my job well and am still alive to tell of it...

Obi_Kwiet
01-25-2004, 01:12 PM
I agree with lone ranger 7 about B-17 II. That was one of the worst games i've ever had, execpt for the tracers. They were awesome! Now, if IL2 had those tracers, man.....

skunkertx
01-25-2004, 01:13 PM
What's your MOS?

LimaZulu
01-25-2004, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skunkertx:
What's your MOS?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't bother asking for his credentials skunkertx, like all posers he will certainly reply with some sort of top secret, super classified, black ops (ie B.S.)reply. But if he can provide the year and class number he graduated SFAS I would be happy to check him out.

Oh and Choctaw111, your right I don't believe you and it is you who is insulting every man and woman who is or has served in uniform regardless of their job.

LZ

LimaZulu
01-25-2004, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Choctaw111:
I have been having trouble posting pictures here but if I could I would post some pictures of a few of my exploits around the globe. It is some really good stuff. I have seen more death and destruction than I feel anyone should and to think that I was trained to wreak havok on the bad guys.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea! This was good for a snort, keep 'um coming! Oh, and I really do hope to God you can post some pictures, I am tingling with excitment!

LZ

Choctaw111
01-25-2004, 04:47 PM
I never said anything about the SF. All I said is that I was involved in some covert operations involving my time in the Army. I turned blue back in 92 at Ft Benning and then earned my wings in September. Since 9-11 I have been involved in two operations in the war on terrorism and I just got back from a deployment to the Balkans. I stayed at Camp Monteith wich wasn't all that bad I guess. I am finally done with the military now so I can devote my time to my wife and three sons. If you are in the service than my hat is off to you and every other man and woman who has ever served. Since my LT thought he was so high speed he had my platoon doing covert patrols along the Macedonian and Serbian borders all of the time.

Choctaw111
01-25-2004, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimaZulu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skunkertx:
What's your MOS?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't bother asking for his credentials skunkertx, like all posers he will certainly reply with some sort of top secret, super classified, black ops (ie B.S.)reply. But if he can provide the year and class number he graduated SFAS I would be happy to check him out.

Oh and Choctaw111, your right I don't believe you and it is you who is insulting every man and woman who is or has served in uniform regardless of their job.

LZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

11B20

Choctaw111
01-25-2004, 05:25 PM
I am a proud American and a proud soldier and I find it hard to beleive that you would badger me, a former service member, in this way. With a name like Lima Zulu I assume that you are military and even US. If this is the case you and I are on the same team. Why are you treating me in this way. I'm sure that there are posers out there but I am not one of them. How can I prove this to you? Maybe there is some type of question or something that you can ask me that when I answer it you will know. Even if I find out how to post pictures how will you ever know if they are genuine. I am new at this whole post thing and I didn't even give it a thought that someone out there would think that I was never in the service. I am sorry for getting you all heated up about this but that doesn't change the fact that I am still proud about my time in the service.

LimaZulu
01-25-2004, 10:23 PM
You wonder why I would badger you? Well, I suppose I can waste a bit of time on this one.

You made the claim; ‚"I have literally seen hundreds of thousands of tracers from many different countries with all of my years in the US Army Covert Ops.‚"Ě What US Army Covert Ops are you referring to? I‚'ve never heard of such a unit, wow they must be really top secret! But than again, perhaps you were somehow inferring that you performed covert missions because later you say, ‚"All I said is that I was involved in some covert operations involving my time in the Army.‚"Ě

Well, this is a bit of a story change but let‚'s roll with it. You said, ‚"Since my LT thought he was so high speed he had my platoon doing covert patrols along the Macedonian and Serbian borders all of the time.‚"Ě So since when is a ‚"patrol‚"Ě covert? There are hundreds of special operation personnel currently in Afghanistan and I would guess that 90% of what they are doing isn‚'t ‚"covert‚"Ě! To do a mission ‚"covert‚"Ě is a big hairy deal, a lot of issues from funding on down to worry about. Not to mention that most of them require Presidential authority to execute. Now, that there is a huge difference between an operation and a mission and honestly it is really rare that an entire operation is covert. So just what are you talking about?

Let‚'s go ahead and suppose (just for the time being) that you are even ex-Army, an 11B you said. I‚'m not an Army guy but if I remember correctly that‚'s a standard infantry MOS right? So you weren‚'t SF, certainly not a member of CAG but somehow your particular infantry platoon was singled out to engage in covert direct action missions. I‚'m a big fan of the infantry but last I checked that wasn‚'t their cup of tea. Thank God, since special operations supports the convention forces. If everyone were special operations then we‚'d be pretty screwed.

So no, your story (even after the back pedal) is still pretty screwed up. You‚'ll need to work on that if you want to be a better poser. But the real reason you are getting all this wonderful attention from me is comments like "Me and my Army buddies would do that a lot for something to do when there was no one to kill." Which gives a horrid impression of the US military being braggart bloodthirsty murderers to those on this International forum who might buy into your stories. The reality is that the US Special Operations community prefers to be known as ‚"Quiet Professionals‚"Ě and are unlikely to discuss what they‚'ve done except to each other.

A better poser cover would be to claim that you were a member of the CIA paramilitary group. Those guys are buried so deep it would be impossible to prove or disprove anything.

LZ

PS Ė Does this mean I don‚'t get to see the pictures?

tenmmike
01-25-2004, 10:44 PM
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F16_Petter
01-26-2004, 02:13 AM
Hey you guys..

We are talking about tracers in this thread right?

Any more flaming about who served where and what is quite enough. It is off topic.

I agree with Choctaw111. Tracers in IL2FB are very "overmodeled" Especially as they are always glowing constanly and bright until they suddenly stop glowing. I am not a tracer expert but after firing quite a lot of rounds during with the ACC.INT L96A1, HMG FNMAG, Barrett M82A1 and the rest of the weapons on the picture (See bottom), I dont seem to think that tracers light up that much anyway. Especially not in daytime. I mean sure you can see them, but you wont need a pair of RayBan or something.. Especially not when using the scoped ones. But then again, these are weapons that are used on the ground. I have no experience of airmounted weapons, but they should have somewhat same principe, maybe more smoketrails for reference?

I belive that the reason the tracers have different colour is just so you can tell the Axis from Allies. green&red=vvs blue&yellow=axis (apart from some exceptions) Its quite annyoing for realism lovers. There should be a realism option for the host that made it possible to select "real tracers" so that all tracers had somewhat the same colour. Like it is now it looks, Like Leadspitter stated previously; "Xwingish" and i fully agree with him!

Down with the rainbow tracers now!
booohh !!

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Skarphol
01-26-2004, 02:44 AM
This is slightly off topic, but also slightly funny..

As I entered a course of handling and storage of ammo in the artillerymechanic education I attended during my service, a noticed a lot of exploded cartriges and such mounted on the walls. They where all things that had gone bad during a variety of accidents. One 40mm FLAK cartrigde was completely destroyed. It turned out that a guy a stolen this ca. 50cm long cartrige, since he was goin to make it into a lamp. As the grenade was 'cold', without explosives, he decided to drill a hole stright through the grenade in order to empty the cartrigde for powder. But as he had finally drilled through the grenade, the phophrus trace at the base of the grenade ignited, and the entire cartrige exploded. Luckily he just lost the fingers on one hand.
Not all the exhibits in that room had ended with such 'small' injuries!
Skarphol

Choctaw111
01-26-2004, 08:00 AM
Hi there LZ. Please send me an e-mail at brad111@ptd.net and I will send you some pictures.

x6BL_Brando
01-26-2004, 08:41 AM
http://www.patrickwilson.com/tape5.htm

Worth a read, this is the transcript of the memoirs of a tail-gunner in the RFC. Apart from discussing tracer rounds (DUX) it also holds a wealth of incidental info about these earliest warbirds and the men who flew them.

Fehler
01-26-2004, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Tracers do not have a great damage effect.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A tracer is made by placing a chemical in the hollow cupped portion in the back of a bullet. That chemical reacts with O2 (Air) to give off a chemical light. Phospeorous is a common chemical used, but so is Potassium and a few others. (I used to know all the colors and checmicals) Soviet countries have used green tracers for a long time. (Obviously since WWII at least)

Most tracers bullets are made from the exact same AP bullet as non-tracer rounds. Their ballistics are nearly identical save for a minor trajectory difference. (Probably caused by the ignition of the aforementioned chemical.) To say tracers are not effective is a terrible misunderstanding of the facts. Tracer rounds are NOT spitballs. (Unless you are talking about the German MG's in IL2FB, in which case, the AP and tracers are both indeed spitballs... LOL


In fact, the tracers I shot from a Browning MII 50 cal machine gun went right through the lightly armored targets we shot at, just like the non tracer rounds. Same goes for the 7.62mm and the 5.56 ones as well.

Therefore, I am more than positive, a tracer round will go through the thin skinned fighter aircraft of WWII.

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Choctaw111
01-27-2004, 07:14 AM
I hope that Oleg will look at this thread. He has such a grat and realstic game but when it comes to the tracers, something that I thought would be one of the easiest things to model in the game, he goes overboard. It would be great to see them changed. I also wanted to say that the former Soviet countries did use green colored tracers for thier rifle caliber ammo. I know this because I got for fire these when I was with some Lithuanian and Romanian soldiers a while back. The caliber that I fired that had tracers was the 7.62x54R. The tracers are bright but only have a slight greeninsh hue to them not this super bright green color.

Choctaw111
01-27-2004, 07:15 AM
Sorry for some of the misspelled words. I was just outside and my hands are very cold.

HarryVoyager
01-27-2004, 08:19 AM
It is an artistic effect used to compensate for the lack of "fineness" available on a computer.

Basically personal computers aren't capable of displaying to full depth reuired to do photo realistic renderings yet, so we have to resort to, essentially, refined carictatures to depict things.

It's part of the same reason that if you try to texture a cockpit with photos from a real cockpit, it always looks so fantastically wrong.

Harry Voyager