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bubba3884
03-02-2007, 08:30 PM
why can't I ?

whenever I fly as a wingman I get left in the dust. I just started my first campaign as the lowest rank in a 109F2.

with ac properly trimmed and 110% power, the rest of the formation steadily pulls away from me so by the time we reach the enemy everyone is a dot.

I've also experienced this in single mission in a P-51 as escort. There has got to be something I'm doing wrong because the sim would have been fixed after 6 years.

bubba3884
03-02-2007, 08:30 PM
why can't I ?

whenever I fly as a wingman I get left in the dust. I just started my first campaign as the lowest rank in a 109F2.

with ac properly trimmed and 110% power, the rest of the formation steadily pulls away from me so by the time we reach the enemy everyone is a dot.

I've also experienced this in single mission in a P-51 as escort. There has got to be something I'm doing wrong because the sim would have been fixed after 6 years.

MrMojok
03-02-2007, 08:35 PM
It hasn't been fixed, and won't be.

Try keeping your nose down, don't point your nose up and try to climb after them, use a more gradual rate of climb than they are using.

Also, sometimes you can kind of cut off their waypoints, that is cut corners and don't follow their exact flight path.


Another idea, that a lot of people use in flying offline, is turning your engine overheat OFF. It sucks I know, but your AI opponents will never suffer from engine overheat.

GreyFox5
03-02-2007, 08:46 PM
Ya and if you take the first plane in the formation (in a coop)- your plane seems to just pull away from the rest of the group. In a couple of minutes your 1km+ ahead of the rest of your flight. Kinda frustrating.

horseback
03-02-2007, 10:41 PM
For a while there (about 18 months ago), it was relatively easy to stay with your flight IF they weren't assigned to escort another flight of fighters.

What has happened is that the changes in AI behavior in the last several patches have not been compensated for in the DGen/NGen or the static campaigns that were put together and tested by your fellow offline campaigners were put together and tested at a much earlier patch level. Ideally, these should have been set so that the Player could keep up with his AI wingmen at 95% throttle or so.

Now, the official party line is that the AI fly the same FMs as the Player does for flyable models of aircraft. However, they have a 'simplified' FM that permits them to ignore overheat and G force limitations that the Player has to observe, and they always have their aircraft perfectly trimmed, the prop pitch set to a gnat's @ss for maximum efficiency, and they 'know' exactly where they are going and when, while the briefings usually pass over those vital bits of info.

You will find that as you gain proficiency in your assigned aircraft type, the performance gap between yourself and the AI will get smaller. I've found that a little practice in QMBs in no cockpit view (more popularly known as 'Wonder Woman' view) can be very handy. The little vector bubble is a tremendous aid to keeping yourself properly trimmed, and you'll find that after a while, it becomes second nature to keep your bubble centered even in 'full real' settings.

In the meantime, your best option is to go into the Full Mission Builder and edit your last generated mission before flying it, resetting the climb and waypoints to a more reasonable speed, time and altitude, and making sure that if there are two flights, that the other flight is orbiting yours.

I've found that it is also a good idea to 'demote' your fellow pilots to Average or Rookie, at least on your own side. I've observed that with the most recent patch versions that the primary function of Aces and Veterans is to hang around until the player damages an enemy aircraft, and then use their superior performance to swoop in & finish it off, taking credit for all your hard effort.

Personally, I get enough of that kind of behavior at work.

cheers

horseback

WWMaxGunz
03-03-2007, 12:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
It hasn't been fixed, and won't be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because it is not an FM problem. AI maybe but not FM.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Try keeping your nose down </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the answer. Where your nose points is not automatically where you are going.
You have to get speed up before climbing and the others (AI) had done that already, maybe just
by getting gear and flaps up at the opportune times while you have been less efficient. It is
something to experiment with, ie if what you do is not working then change something.

Lifting your nose prematurely will guarantee that you waste power right from the start.
Get moving with your nose aimed lower and to catch up on the horizontal means you are moving
faster, then is the time to nose up but not so much you do not keep catching up unless of
course you are very close to your tail-end charlie place in formation.

Get this right and you won't be yelling so much about speed bleed in other maneuvers, you
can only pull as hard as you have speed to allow which plane by plane you learn best by doing.

Another thing, avoid nose-high turns as those can set you up in the same speed/power trap as
you are in by trying to climb too fast too early. Best to drop the nose and lower power to
start the turn and then bring power back up after the turn is established. That works in
any decent physics-based flight sim and it is something I learned from multiple different
real pilots so I believe it is not a simism.

bubba3884
03-03-2007, 11:51 AM
thanks for the input - I'll give it a try !(but we all know it won't help)

Like I said, I'm suprised that in 6 years this hasn't been fixed - it seems like a pretty major flaw. After alot a practice and tweaking, I was looking forward to an immersive campaign (as advertised).

Oh well ...

DuxCorvan
03-03-2007, 12:07 PM
As simple as this: AI cheats blatant and ludicrously.

Chef-Scott
03-03-2007, 12:38 PM
Center the ball.

p-11.cAce
03-03-2007, 01:45 PM
Fly intersecting flight paths not following.
Use Prop Pitch properly.
Use mixture properly.
Adjust radiator properly.
Make smooth control inputs.
Fly directly from waypoint to waypoint.
Fly the proper altitude and climb profile.
AI do use a simplified FM but the "cheats" are
5% AI and 95% user error.
The biggest mistake is to point your nose at your AI wingman or leader and expect to keep up - it does not work that way here or in RL. Practice practice practice and suddenly you will see that the AI don't leave you in the dust. If this was really a "cheat" in the way some people describe it no one would fly the sim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

mortoma1958
03-03-2007, 04:39 PM
I've posted on this many times over the years...sigh......
Bottom line, you can keep up with the AI!!! I do it in just about every plane in the sim. I fly Dgen offline campaigns more than anything and have been doing it from the start in 2001 until now. Although Dgen was not really introduced until Forgotten Battles came out. Campaigns were static before that in older IL2 series, there was no Dgen then.

But nevertheless, there are secrets of flying and keeping up that take a while to develop and beginners are often impatient and expect to fly like a pro right away. Please take time to learn things a little bit at a time.

There are some planes ( not many ) that have their default cruise speeds set too high in Dgen campaigns. Some of the Spitfires, especailly early ones, the FM-2 Wildcat come to mind. But you can fix that!! If you go into the Dgen folder, you will find two files, one called Europlanes.dat and the other is Pacificplanes.dat and you can open them in Notepad ( don't use Wordpad ). The line for Spit 5B looks like this:


Allies USSR Fighter SPITFIRE5B 400 3000 3000 default 1


The first set of numbers is cruise speed, ( in KPH ) in this case 400kph. So if you change it to 370, you will find it much easier to stay with the other AI when flying this plane.

And last, but not least is the fact that most beginners try to catch up too quickly in the first part of the mission right after take off. Most do this by trying to climb way too hard, therefore they not only slow the plane down too much, they also tend to overheat too much. Try and climb at a more slight angle and keep your speed reasonalby high. Keep the planes in your flight that you are trying to catch up to high in your wind screen. Do not, I repeat do not keep your nose pointed at them, but below them. I do this all the time and I keep up, even having only edited a few cruise speeds in the dat files as already explained how to do. I use almost all of the default cruise speed settings and keep up easily!!!!

WWMaxGunz
03-03-2007, 05:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
As simple as this: AI cheats blatant and ludicrously. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do it by not flying poorly. Those bums!

bubba3884
03-03-2007, 06:28 PM
thanks mortoma

I will definitely edit the cruise speeds now !

also, yes - with some practice and using the techniques described I can stay a little closer, but (and I hate to use this term) in real life, NO ONE cuises at full power. It burns gas and engines way to fast!

WWMaxGunz
03-03-2007, 06:51 PM
You want to run high power at takeoff and for a while after, as in real life and esp war time.

I have found that at lower power you need to run lower revs at least once speed has picked
up at all. I have spent a good deal of time practicing flying at 50 to 70% power and reduced
pitch but take a P-51 at 2km alt and 85-90% power and see how fast you can get it running by
cutting back 'pitch' as speed increases. Works like that for all with CSP or similar (FW on
manual pitch control is much like), with 109 on manual it takes more 'work' but you get finer
control.

Drag increases by square of speed, 20% less power and efficient pitch/rpm will go about 90%
full speed just by that. Operative word there is 'about' but it is not exaggeration. Same
20% less power trying to maintain rpm will limit speed to less than about 90%.

DuxCorvan
03-04-2007, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
As simple as this: AI cheats blatant and ludicrously. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do it by not flying poorly. Those bums! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do it by not having overheat nor energy bleeding nor any other physical limits that are modeled for non-AI. Those bums!

bun-bun195333
03-04-2007, 08:12 AM
Catch the leader early and get a few machine gun rounds in his engine. That'll slow him down.
The blacker the smoke, the slower he'll go.

WWMaxGunz
03-04-2007, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
As simple as this: AI cheats blatant and ludicrously. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do it by not flying poorly. Those bums! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do it by not having overheat nor energy bleeding nor any other physical limits that are modeled for non-AI. Those bums! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't overheat either. I control the engine to keep from overheat.
I can't say about AI and G's but I can say that for 9 years now I have seen people swear that
other people online had a G-force cheat going when the reality was much simpler, they were
pulling more G's on their flight paths.

mortoma1958
03-04-2007, 04:55 PM
One thing to remember is even if you change the Dgen cruise speeds for your Dgen campaigns, it will help little on escort missions. In that case, the AI fly really all out ( unrealistic ) especially when they are catching back up to the planes they are escorting. In RL, escorting pilots would simply cruise leisurely and fly at about 60% power. You have to fly near perfectly in order to keep up on escorts and some aircraft are worse in this respect than others. But I can do it in about 100 or so fighters, maybe more.
Sometimes it takes total concentration in order to keep perfect formation.