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LeChuck59
09-24-2004, 08:35 AM
I didn't see a thread on this yet so, from the front page...

Pacific Fighters will launch with a multiplayer mode that will allow up to 128 players to participate in live online in aerial dogfights!
For the first time in any retail combat flight simulation, Pacific Fighters will allow massive live engagements for up to 128 players in dogfight mode on the same dedicated server via Internet or LAN. Cooperative play and dynamic online campaigns are also available for up to 32 players. Whether it€s in dogfight or cooperative mode, Pacific Fighters will provide an unparalleled online multiplayer experience. In addition to live players, the game also includes a large number of AI-controlled aircraft, ships and ground vehicles. Pacific Fighters provides a faithful re-creation of the most decisive battles of WWII€s Pacific theater, in famous locations like Midway, Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima, where the courage of a single pilot could turn the tide of war.

"We are thrilled to offer flight-sim enthusiasts the opportunity to fight in massive live engagements. Aerial dog-fighting between live opponents in multiplayer will never be the same again. The opportunity to join huge squadrons or plan a Task Force to route the enemy will be amazing in Pacific Fighters," said producer Fabrice Cambounet.

Backed by Oleg Maddox and the team that created the IL-2 series, Pacific Fighters allows players to participate in the most compelling Pacific air war experience ever created.


That's amazing news. For match play, that could mean 5 squads of 12 against 5 squads of 12. The logistics are mind boggling, but damn, it would be fun.

LeChuck59
09-24-2004, 08:35 AM
I didn't see a thread on this yet so, from the front page...

Pacific Fighters will launch with a multiplayer mode that will allow up to 128 players to participate in live online in aerial dogfights!
For the first time in any retail combat flight simulation, Pacific Fighters will allow massive live engagements for up to 128 players in dogfight mode on the same dedicated server via Internet or LAN. Cooperative play and dynamic online campaigns are also available for up to 32 players. Whether it€s in dogfight or cooperative mode, Pacific Fighters will provide an unparalleled online multiplayer experience. In addition to live players, the game also includes a large number of AI-controlled aircraft, ships and ground vehicles. Pacific Fighters provides a faithful re-creation of the most decisive battles of WWII€s Pacific theater, in famous locations like Midway, Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima, where the courage of a single pilot could turn the tide of war.

"We are thrilled to offer flight-sim enthusiasts the opportunity to fight in massive live engagements. Aerial dog-fighting between live opponents in multiplayer will never be the same again. The opportunity to join huge squadrons or plan a Task Force to route the enemy will be amazing in Pacific Fighters," said producer Fabrice Cambounet.

Backed by Oleg Maddox and the team that created the IL-2 series, Pacific Fighters allows players to participate in the most compelling Pacific air war experience ever created.


That's amazing news. For match play, that could mean 5 squads of 12 against 5 squads of 12. The logistics are mind boggling, but damn, it would be fun.

Zen--
09-24-2004, 08:38 AM
Unless they did some MAJOR overhaul to the netcode and make the maps considerably larger than they are now, I don't see how this will be anything other than a tremendous lag fest.

Bloot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


It would be nice, but I don't think it's possible...at 31 players now the game has to be tweaked like crazy to remain stable and it's still not smooth for everyone.

Kasdeya
09-24-2004, 08:49 AM
But with the vast ocean, and two small island strips, or carriers, anything is possible.

Tully__
09-24-2004, 08:54 AM
It'd be a hoot at a big LAN party http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jaws2002
09-24-2004, 08:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kasdeya:
But with the vast ocean, and two small island strips, or carriers, anything is possible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


True. Just set the water on perfect at the server side. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fritzofn
09-24-2004, 09:00 AM
WOOOHOO, now we can have a REAL
Mariane turkey shoot :P
oooh...or the attack on Hawaii, and this time, remember to blow the fuel tanks :P

trumper
09-24-2004, 09:08 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif128 Players,no lag ,i ll believe it when i see it.We try co ops online and you only need a bit too much Flak,weather,buildings and stutter,stutter

BlitzPig_Ritter
09-24-2004, 09:10 AM
Me thinks the Blitzpigs will need to let in a few more members.

xTHRUDx
09-24-2004, 09:24 AM
my machine can't even draw that many planes at once

BM357_TinMan
09-24-2004, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
my machine can't even draw that many planes at once <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, Besides the bandwidth constraints, this was my major concern.

I have a good rig and I think 128 planes will choke it to death........

I'm curious to see this. I am cautiously optimistic though. CFS3 can't host more than like 5 planes, no matter what connection you have, with out some degree of true lag, and IL2FB handles this WAY better so it is not entirely unthinkable that they have come up with an improved way of m/p.

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-24-2004, 09:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
my machine can't even draw that many planes at once <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Time for a new rig squaddy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Zooly235
09-24-2004, 10:05 AM
i agree with Zen--, this will be almost unplayable when you consider things like individual connection speeds (56kers!!!) and computer setups (hardware etc).
its a nice thought but......

RevvinUK
09-24-2004, 10:21 AM
I don't know why there is so much scepticism, if they are stating that the game will support 128 players then it will support 128 players they would not advertise it if it was not possible. MMOG sims handle many more players on broaband and 56k and have predictive routines to smooth out any lag issues. Joint Operations supports 150 players and that's more of a 'twitch reaction' type game where lag would be instantly more of a problem than a flight sim.

The internet has changed a hell of a lot over the last few years, more games are supporting more and more players so if Oleg has tweaked the net code to take up less CPU cycles, bandwidth and memory then why is it so unbelieveable?

TX Rahman
09-24-2004, 10:33 AM
I would tend to agree with Zen... After running and tweaking a server for so long...the only way this would be possible is with a huge overhaul of the netcode.

I welcome the prospect of large combined efforts battles but remain skeptical.

Hoping that this will been seen through to completion.

TheGozr
09-24-2004, 10:34 AM
64 at list will be a major improuvement http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Aaron_GT
09-24-2004, 10:34 AM
If there is a new server with no graphics, perhaps, then there will be no issues with the server not being able to draw 128 planes. I suspect that this will be a big effect on the ability of servers being able to handle so many players without needing such a huge rewrite of the net code (but maybe the netcode has been rewritten too).

I still bet you'd need a beefy machine with a good network connection to run 128 players. I think a rented server on a T1 backbone is probably the way to go.

JG26_Red
09-24-2004, 10:35 AM
thats alot of freaking planes!

TX Rahman
09-24-2004, 10:48 AM
Aaron,
We have a rented server in a data center with an OC192... We still have issues with hosting huge amounts of players with the dedicated console server.

I'm curious as if they are doing something like enabling 128 players but only having the system draw objects within a certain range from you. Dunno...

WOLFMondo
09-24-2004, 11:22 AM
I hope they have ditched the old netcode and written a new one. It was bad enough with 32 players unless the server settings were heavily customised and lacking ground objects. I wonder how they will figure this in with servers that run both PF and FB/Aces?

Fox_4
09-24-2004, 11:27 AM
It could be a bit manic... with so many players, there will be endless "xxx has been shot down by xxx" messages whizzing past at the top of the screen.

BM357_TinMan
09-24-2004, 11:36 AM
Would be a rush though wouldn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I suppose, maybe, if you use one of those *blank* maps with out objects or terrain textures, you could bump up the playes *some*, but ?128?!?

This I got to see.

fuser59
09-24-2004, 12:49 PM
S~ XO TinMan
I look forward to PF and the Carriers !!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_TinMan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
my machine can't even draw that many planes at once <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, Besides the bandwidth constraints, this was my major concern.

I have a good rig and I think 128 planes will choke it to death........

I'm curious to see this. I am cautiously optimistic though. CFS3 can't host more than like 5 planes, no matter what connection you have, with out some degree of true lag, and IL2FB handles this WAY better so it is not entirely unthinkable that they have come up with an improved way of m/p. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aaron_GT
09-25-2004, 02:57 AM
Rahman: is the dedicated server console only, no graphics?

Surely the server doesn't draw anything anyway - it simply provides details on what to draw to each client.

karost
09-25-2004, 03:12 AM
128 players in LAN possible
but 128 players in internet with many parameter for FM,DM from 128 players to communicate between server at the same time . Lag is major concern.

if they decrease a number of that parameters close to CS. or DOOM that would be possible (IMHO)http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

biggs222
09-25-2004, 03:27 AM
well if this 128 player thing works out that would be perfect for BoB....that way we could really get those huge air raid attacks over london.

Fehler
09-25-2004, 04:15 AM
They must have good crack in Russia...

But you know, I really doubt Oleg would announce something that is totally impossible. I guess we will all have to wait and see (While we keep our fingers crossed.)

crazyivan1970
09-25-2004, 04:49 AM
You can play with netcode all you want.... it`s not a problem with how game behaves with 128 ppl, especially with dedicated server.... it will probably handle it. The problem is...how many planes can your PC handle? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

609IAP_Recon
09-25-2004, 05:00 AM
agreed, probably the only thing that could help is this comment "I'm curious as if they are doing something like enabling 128 players but only having the system draw objects within a certain range from you. "

We'll assume not all 128 are dogfighting right in front of you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have some skepticism as well, and some concern if they changed the netcode. I haven't heard of any large scale beta testing, which would be needed to test this type of code change. In the past, new release have had some bugs that made it frustrating to play until a first patch came alone - this would certain cause some concerns.

Now, if they had no ground objects, no AI, removed the cheat code, ran it on a dedicated server, etc....

Extreme_One
09-25-2004, 05:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
....The problem is...how many planes can your PC handle? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many planes can your PC handle? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=50910533&m=25610358&showpollresults=Y) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

crazyivan1970
09-25-2004, 05:04 AM
That answers it, right Simon? LOL

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-25-2004, 05:05 AM
RGR that Ivan.

I dont think I will be playing any so called Massively multiplayer games on my rig with out whacking a bloody three to four hundred quid graphic card in jumping up the processor to 64 bit stuffing 1 gig of memory on board.

Apart from that I am not to sure how the game play would work. Certainly if my experience of current dogfight servers is anything to go buy it will make for some really heafty chat lag heheh.

Just think 128 players all biatching at each other about the same old shiot?

YIKES!!

Still will have to wait and see I guess.

Interesting news though all the same and no doubt the shape of things to come

GAU-8
09-25-2004, 05:28 AM
128 players...

..even better if you can cram in that many into one aviation related "lan party" busines..

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DD_NL
09-25-2004, 05:30 AM
128 no way. I dont care what anyone says, it wont fly (pardon the pun). And anyone that has ever played any kind of online FPS or MMORPG will agree. I've played almost every MMORPG since Everquest and the second you get more then 20 or so players (or even less in most cases) in the same area (read:dungeon) you would get lag. All these games always advertised they would be able to support "hundreds" or even "thousands" of players simultanously, but the reality is it doesnt work. Sure, MMORPG's can support thousands of players, but spread out over several servers and then divided into several more zones. This also goes for FPS games like Quake, Halflife etc. etc. not one of these type of games are able to support 100+ players on the same map, not even the more dated games (read:simple graphics) like Tribes. When you get to 12-16 players, maybe up to 24, but that's usually the limit. A lot of people here have mentioned they cant play some of the larger campaigns, or are limited to a certain amount of planes to be able to play IL-2 FB with decent framerates and no stutters. I agree that more people have faster/better computers and faster internet connections, but I dont believe 128 players in the same map untill I see it.

Tully__
09-25-2004, 05:40 AM
With some juggling in how the net code is handled I can see 128 players on the same map working, but you'd need 4-6 airfields available per side and you'd have to have a number of objectives to prevent all the aircraft bunching up in one corner of the map. If you at any time had all 128 players get within 15km of the same point it would fall apart in a big hurry with current PC power, even on a gigabit LAN.

Nevertheless, it'd be a hoot at a LAN party http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Snyde-Dastardly
09-25-2004, 06:05 AM
Heck Ive played on 160 person servers in Joint Ops. And they have crewable helos,jeeps, boats,lav's,and stuff. Its total frickin chaos on the front line and I get no lag. Ok sometomes when under alot of heavy fire but rarely. Im not worried,Ill be at 20/25 thousand with my crew in my 25 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Aeronautico
09-25-2004, 07:02 AM
LAG party? Who said LAG party?! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Extreme, now that everybody talks about PC capacity to handle lots of objects and big campaigns...
I am playing your US "North & South" (very nice) short campaign. In the parachuters' mission for example, my rig basically dies, no matter the graphic settings, even the most basic ones. It seems to be a CPU limitation, but should not an Athlon 2800+ be enough to handle that?!

A!

AMD 2800+
1028 MB DDR PC3200
ASUS A7N (boh?) - the one with nVidia sound on-board
SAPPHIRE Radeon 9800 Pro 128 MB

Tully__
09-25-2004, 07:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aeronautico:
LAG party? Who said LAG party?! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Extreme, now that everybody talks about PC capacity to handle lots of objects and big campaigns...
I am playing your US "North & South" (very nice) short campaign. In the parachuters' mission for example, my rig basically dies, no matter the graphic settings, even the most basic ones. It seems to be a CPU limitation, but should not an Athlon 2800+ be enough to handle that?!

A!

AMD 2800+
1028 MB DDR PC3200
ASUS A7N (boh?) - the one with nVidia sound on-board
SAPPHIRE Radeon 9800 Pro 128 MB <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Parachutes are CPU killers, big time. Nothing you can do will fix it short of editing the mission to remove the paratroops from the load out of their transports. I'm currently working on a mission with lots of downed bombers and they start to kill my PC (Pentium 4 2.0GHz) at somewhere between 12-16 parachutes. The framerate hit happens even when viewing a remote static camera with no view of the action or any complex objects. Anything over 20 parachutes will kill framerates on just about any PC.

Slick750
09-25-2004, 07:23 AM
I've been playing Joint operations for a few weeks now, it has 150 player servers, with people running wild on boats ,jeeps, choppers, APCs and still get a 30ms ping with DSL. I think it's possible to have 128 but with carriers and flak it might be a bit choppy. I noticed that most screenshots of PF seem to be lacking Anti-aliasing.(?) Can't wait to see how it runs.

Hunter82
09-25-2004, 08:32 AM
We'll see soon enough, won't we? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Korolov
09-25-2004, 09:31 AM
To all you using games like Join Operations for a example:

Remember that these games don't have to calculate flight physics, complex damage models, etc. all across the netcode. The vehicles in the game are very simple in nature and the most complex part is the first person element, which would be basic hit areas and movement. It's a lot less to calculate than what a flight sim has to calculate.

DD_NL
09-25-2004, 09:36 AM
Yeah, what he said ^

Aaron_GT
09-25-2004, 09:47 AM
Maybe the thing to ask for in the first patch for PF is something to disable parachutes!

Tully__
09-25-2004, 09:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Maybe the thing to ask for in the first patch for PF is something to disable parachutes! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It shouldn't be a big issue on DF servers, no AI means no paratroops ('cept for those "special" AI enabled DF servers of course). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Aaron_GT
09-25-2004, 09:50 AM
Tully: the issue isn't really the bandwidth of the LAN, more the issue of latency and sychronisation. The more players the more messages that need to be sent, and these have to be sent over the relatively high latency of anything other than the likes of myrinet, and so the server and client ends are often waiting for data.

Tully__
09-25-2004, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Tully: the issue isn't really the bandwidth of the LAN, more the issue of latency and sychronisation. The more players the more messages that need to be sent, and these have to be sent over the relatively high latency of anything other than the likes of myrinet, and so the server and client ends are often waiting for data. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The issue with parachutes is CPU, they're the same lag fest offline as they are on.

I follow the impact of large numbers of objects in multiplayer missions, I suspect some of the MMOG's solve it by only passing data to your client for objects that are in your vicinity. For games like FB it could mean some big pauses as you approach a city doing it that way though... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Edit: I still think it would be a hoot at a big LAN party, as long as you were willing to not take yourselves too seriously and laugh at the lag fest http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

karost
09-25-2004, 11:07 AM
I have one thing about a compromise solution for a lag problem in 128 players.

server will sent data in each client ( player ) limit range ( ok let's say to 10-15 km) around each player, it mean if player open record track file then he will see every thing ( other action€s player) near him within 10-15 km only

that will be help server 's job no need to send a lot of useless data to each client ( player ) , and each client will has a nice clean bandwidth to send out bound data back to a server. oh ... server still have to send a public information to every client about who kill who , or who landing save http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So each client can send more important message to server like FM, DM that did not model, or was cut out.

oh.... for an eye candy friends may don't like this idea because they like to see every one ( 128 player ) what they are doing ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but this idea will not help anything if all 128 players are staying near at the same place and at the same time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
S!

Aeronautico
09-25-2004, 03:50 PM
Hummm...

All those chutes actually hit the CPU more than planes, and it should not be like this. I wonder whether it is a known lack in the code that has never been addressed 'cause of the marginality of such a flaw, being other issues more of a priority.

And anyway... has anybody managed to actually play that mission?!


About the net code and the 128 players' support, I might be wrong but I doubt the single client has to calculate all other planes' FM and such: my guess it always has to transmit position, damages taken, and weapons' activity, much like what an .ntrk has to record, and receive the same from others, not more. It's more a matter of PING than amount of data transmitted and exchanged. Me thinks.

A!

RevvinUK
09-25-2004, 05:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aeronautico:
About the net code and the 128 players' support, I might be wrong but I doubt the single client has to calculate all other planes' FM and such: my guess it always has to transmit position, damages taken, and weapons' activity, much like what an .ntrk has to record, and receive the same from others, not more. It's more a matter of PING than amount of data transmitted and exchanged. Me thinks.

A! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! each client calculates his own DM, renders graphics etc. MMOG sims use visible player limits, Warbirds for example had a 32 player visible limit for a long time before it finally allowed 64 visible players. WWII Online does the same. The actual data sent in each packet is not quite as detailed as some are trying to make out. As for the comparisons to Joint Ops..it's still valid as lag is much more apparent in an FPS because it's harder to predict player movement than it is to predict a planes flight path due to the quicker changes in direction your FPS character can make. There are players hosting Targetware servers now on their home connections with more than 32 players. This is 2004 not 1994