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MB_Avro_UK
10-28-2007, 06:09 PM
Hi all,

Dicey subject but means something to all of us. Is Patriotism beneficial or locked in the past?

Here's a link to a British version. Not sure about the scantily clad lady on horseback http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HWY_PK4bAkU

Should we all be one international family and forget the past?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

HuninMunin
10-28-2007, 06:32 PM
Depends in what you see in patriotism.

a) You think that your culture/nation is valuable enough to rate it higher then foreign ones.

b) You think that your culture/nation is valuable enough to ewoke pride and bind you to a larger community of individuals sharing your view.

Version a should be a thing of the past - it was never healthy for individuals and nations alike to define ego by measuring against a given opponent.

Version b should be the thing of the future because it neither denies a worldwide unity nor does it exclude the value of history and culture.

BaldieJr
10-28-2007, 06:37 PM
Patriotism has its place.

Tab_Flettner
10-28-2007, 06:43 PM
Avro your little slide show left out one picture...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/mr_coffee/DSC01912.jpg

fabianfred
10-28-2007, 06:56 PM
oooohhh nice that pic made me hungry

A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government...

polak5
10-28-2007, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Hi all,

Dicey subject but means something to all of us. Is Patriotism beneficial or locked in the past?

Here's a link to a British version. Not sure about the scantily clad lady on horseback http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HWY_PK4bAkU

Should we all be one international family and forget the past?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Dicey subject indeed. It is interesting you should mention the past, because to me as time goes on, the definition of patriotism changes.

Avro, take the UK and USA for example when the US started trading with the United Kingdom after its independence it was considered unpatriotic... but now? Is it considered unpatriotic? not to my knowledge.

But now its 2007 the whole world is connected on a broad communications network and trade and travel has no boundaries (for the most part).
So what now is patriotism? when everyone seems to be steeping on each other's toes.

To go on further probably has no place on the UBI forums so I will say what I would consider to be unpatriotic... to blindly rally behind your country for whatever it considers to be righteous, to me its no different than the philosophy of the crusaders.

Bearcat99
10-28-2007, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

GBrutus
10-28-2007, 08:18 PM
While I love my country I have to say that I dislike flag-wavers in general. From experience it seems that the most fervently patriotic types often know sweet F.A about their own country let alone anyone else's.

Divine-Wind
10-28-2007, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government...
Never really saw it in that light before, but now that you put it like that, I find myself agreeing with you.

Cajun76
10-28-2007, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Divine-Wind:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fabianfred:
A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government...
Never really saw it in that light before, but now that you put it like that, I find myself agreeing with you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is precisely why the Second Amendment was adopted in the US. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

drose01
10-28-2007, 09:10 PM
Webster's Dictionary



patriotism

Main Entry: patriotism
Pronunciation: \ˈpā-trē-ə-ˌti-zəm, chiefly British ˈpa-\
Function: noun
Date: circa 1726
: love for or devotion to one's country

Loco-S
10-28-2007, 09:14 PM
Im a mercenary, I love whoever pays more.

Luke5skywalker4
10-28-2007, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by fabianfred:

A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government...

Agreed. There is Blind Patriotism with those who follow the drumbeat of whatever a government says or does and True Patriotism where people are wary to the erosion of freedom, always questioning, and willing to resist.

V: "People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."

AKA_TAGERT
10-28-2007, 09:35 PM
As long as there are at least 3 people.. people will choose sides.. It is nature.. no changing.. learn to deal with it and pick a side! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dizz_
10-28-2007, 09:46 PM
A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government...

Bingo! Give that man a "see-gar."

PenGs
10-28-2007, 10:07 PM
I never understood if I was patriotic or not... I mean I am pretty sure I am but how much?
For one thing, I live in NYC so then and there you understand that I don't live in America spiritually. With our $10 cups of coffee and stuck up...ness... towards anybody and everybody, NYC isn't exactly the place to think of when thinking America.

However whenever my dumb as **** friends go off about how they don't like America because they don't like the govt and yadda yadda, I stand up and tell them those are two different things. Then I go off about how we wouldn't be living the lives we live now if we resided in our home countries (remember that about 50% now of NYC is Asian, I myself though am Belarusian).

I really do like living in America... but I have come to realize that I never really lived in America. Thats why I have been planning on just going on a huge road trip into the heart of America and just enjoy myself.

So moral of the story children is that coffee is pathetically expensive.

JG14_Josf
10-28-2007, 10:16 PM
As long as there are at least 3 people.. people will choose sides.. It is nature.. no changing.. learn to deal with it and pick a side!


Nature on one side. (http://books.google.com/books?id=cgJCa3FIIVQC&dq=men+against+the+sea&pg=PP1&ots=NWE2xOB5dn&sig=ZRv1OZUNB6nNu5WGMI2avaX2QiE&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dmen%2Bagainst%2Bthe%2Bsea&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail)

HuninMunin
10-28-2007, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
As long as there are at least 3 people.. people will choose sides.. It is nature.. no changing.. learn to deal with it and pick a side! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Now I get the american 2 way system http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LEBillfish
10-28-2007, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by fabianfred:

A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government...

+1

joe.08
10-28-2007, 10:39 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/mr_coffee/DSC01912.jpg

that picture reminded me of why im glad im not british http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

"A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government..."

true but today disagreeing with the us's current policy makes you a terrorist

all cause gw bush has a small wiener and some sort of daddy complex

drose01
10-28-2007, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by joe.08:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/mr_coffee/DSC01912.jpg

that picture reminded me of why im glad im not british http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

"A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government..."

true but today disagreeing with the us's current policy makes you a terrorist

all cause gw bush has a small wiener and some sort of daddy complex
So I guess that expressing the opinions in the second part of your post makes you a patriot, as you define it? (assuming you are American)

joe.08
10-28-2007, 11:09 PM
not sure what youre implying

Von_Rat
10-28-2007, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by joe.08:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/mr_coffee/DSC01912.jpg

that picture reminded me of why im glad im not british http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

"A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government..."

true but today disagreeing with the us's current policy makes you a terrorist

all cause gw bush has a small wiener and some sort of daddy complex

it was only a matter of time till we got one of these posts.


note i am most definatly not a gw supporter. but posts like these have no place in this thread.

ImpStarDuece
10-28-2007, 11:11 PM
Some quotes:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnston, 1775.

- I can't remember who said, this (or when), but I've always loved it:

"Love of one's country is a great thing. But why does love have to stop at the border?"

I find the sense of attachment to the place that you had no control over being born in to be a curious and, frankly, illogical, thing. If I was there by choice, then patriotism would occur, but because of an accident of birth... ?

lowfighter
10-28-2007, 11:12 PM
I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Depends in what you see in patriotism.

a) You think that your culture/nation is valuable enough to rate it higher then foreign ones.

b) You think that your culture/nation is valuable enough to ewoke pride and bind you to a larger community of individuals sharing your view.

Version a should be a thing of the past - it was never healthy for individuals and nations alike to define ego by measuring against a given opponent.

Version b should be the thing of the future because it neither denies a worldwide unity nor does it exclude the value of history and culture.

BfHeFwMe
10-28-2007, 11:15 PM
If history teaches one solid lesson it's that power always abhors a vacuum. The one world community is an illusion fostered in the west based on western ideals and culture.

Go ahead and shuck your nationalism, see what happens in the vacuum. LoL

Rest assured China, India, Arabia, Africa, and several other geo-cultural regions don't share your same fantasy. But go ahead and hand them the rope. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Von_Rat
10-28-2007, 11:17 PM
my idea of Patriotism isnt really to one country, its to a set of ideals.

my country upholds those ideals, well more or less, lol. but then so do most countrys of the western world, not to mention several others.

if the usa turned into a facist dictorship, i'd have no problem fighting against it and Patriotism be dammed.

horseback
10-28-2007, 11:40 PM
Well, things have gone downhill since Fabianfred's post. Let's see if we can raise the level of the discussion a bit.

Patriotism seems to have fallen into disrepute since the Second World War. Personally, I feel a great love for my country. I love our people, I love our language, our music, our sports, our food and the land itself, its mountains, forests, deserts, plains and rivers. It's my home, and I miss it when I'm away. I seek out my countrymen when I'm in a foreign land, not because I dislike other peoples and cultures, but because my countrymen 'get it.'

We automatically have something in common, even if we may not agree about politics or rap music.

I have to admit that I'm shocked and a bit saddened that others don't always feel that way about their own lands, although I've been to some lands that are absolute s**tholes because of the kleptocrats that run them.

On the whole, though, most countries and peoples have something good and worthwhile about them that is worthy of love and pride, and deserving of defending against an outside invader or internal corruption.

You can't put a value on such things, and say "mine is better than yours", because you wouldn't be comfortable or feel at home in mine, nor I in yours.

I'm a patriot. I love and honor what is good about my homeland, and want to preserve and protect what is good about it, and I think the world would be a better place if others felt the same way about their homes.

cheers

horseback

Esel1964
10-29-2007, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by horseback:
Well, things have gone downhill since Fabianfred's post. Let's see if we can raise the level of the discussion a bit.

Patriotism seems to have fallen into disrepute since the Second World War. Personally, I feel a great love for my country. I love our people, I love our language, our music, our sports, our food and the land itself, its mountains, forests, deserts, plains and rivers. It's my home, and I miss it when I'm away. I seek out my countrymen when I'm in a foreign land, not because I dislike other peoples and cultures, but because my countrymen 'get it.'

We automatically have something in common, even if we may not agree about politics or rap music.

I have to admit that I'm shocked and a bit saddened that others don't always feel that way about their own lands, although I've been to some lands that are absolute s**tholes because of the kleptocrats that run them.

On the whole, though, most countries and peoples have something good and worthwhile about them that is worthy of love and pride, and deserving of defending against an outside invader or internal corruption.

You can't put a value on such things, and say "mine is better than yours", because you wouldn't be comfortable or feel at home in mine, nor I in yours.

I'm a patriot. I love and honor what is good about my homeland, and want to preserve and protect what is good about it, and I think the world would be a better place if others felt the same way about their homes.

cheers

horseback

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I've heard New Yorkers(NYC),Londoners,Parisians,et al;proclaim their pride for their city(in life,I don't mean this particular post only).So how,is your home country different-whether you agree with the current leaders or not;that's what voting is for.

The recent politics can't erase an entire country's history,and if you think being proud of where you're from,means you're not open and friendly to folks from all over the world,you're living in your own world.I love my State and my Country(my city's a real joke),but,that in no way means I feel like I'm "better" than anyone,anywhere in the world.

Friendly_flyer
10-29-2007, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government...

That sentiment is likely to be met with a blanc stare of incomprehension in large tracts of Europe. It might have something to do size of countries.

FPSOLKOR
10-29-2007, 12:40 AM
A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government...
Let me test your (and all others) history knowlege on this matter by asking some provocative question...

1. Who was more patriotic during GPW: partisans, or ROA?

2. Who was more patriotic: Bendera or NKVD and SMERSh soldiers?

In my opinion, one may hate his country (a piece of land with borders, which can change, or even become non-existent for time being as with Checoslovakia for example or permanently ), regime (a given set of rulers, which also change) but love it's population (people who live in this country and make it so special) - and that's what makes him patriot.

GregGal
10-29-2007, 01:26 AM
Hungarian patriots are the worsthttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
A US patriot loves his country. A Hungarian one hates everyone else. Huuuge difference.
I think patriotism should mean: "come on, I'll show you this great country, I'll show you its beauties, and why is it so formidable. Here in the 90% of the cases it means: f* you, stranger, I'm hungarian.

ploughman
10-29-2007, 06:31 AM
What horseback said is more or less it. I like it here, it's very pretty and the beer's not cold and I like the way the grass feels when I lay down and watch the clouds go by.

I don't expect or require you to like it too.

Unlike H though, I really do like going to other places (except France). I do like meeting people who are as enthusiastic about their places as I am about mine and then, after I've done that, I love coming home again.

Wurkeri
10-29-2007, 06:48 AM
IMHO people seem to mix here two slightly different terms; patriotism and nationalism.

In the best case both terms can have a positive content, however, in the worst case particularly the later term can mean really bad things...

HotelBushranger
10-29-2007, 07:07 AM
I like this topic, it's very complex http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Usually the very overt 'patriots', i.e. ones that shout nationalistic slogans (often in the heat of the moment and influenced by media) and gratuitously wave flags often are the most ignorant and close minded, also probably possessing little knowledge of their countries history. This is how I see it in Australia at least. To be a patriot, one doesn't have to go around saying how good, for example, Oz is. They are more likely trying to consolidate their own superiority complex over others. To be a patriot means to modestly, confidently and justifiably feel that your country is a good place to live, not necessarily in a direct competition with others, but to just know that, for example, Australia is a great place to live.

It gets interesting when one tries to distinguish patriotism with nationalism, as the lines blur a lot. Here, nationalism could perhaps be explained as being, or possessing, a love of ones specific country, the language, culture etc; patriotism can sometimes include values and attitudes that encompass many countries. I also get the feeling nationalism means a more direct involvement, or attempted involvement, in the direction of ones countries future.

Any thoughts? Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

FPSOLKOR
10-29-2007, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
I like this topic, it's very complex http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Usually the very overt 'patriots', i.e. ones that shout nationalistic slogans (often in the heat of the moment and influenced by media) and gratuitously wave flags often are the most ignorant and close minded, also probably possessing little knowledge of their countries history. This is how I see it in Australia at least. To be a patriot, one doesn't have to go around saying how good, for example, Oz is. They are more likely trying to consolidate their own superiority complex over others. To be a patriot means to modestly, confidently and justifiably feel that your country is a good place to live, not necessarily in a direct competition with others, but to just know that, for example, Australia is a great place to live.

It gets interesting when one tries to distinguish patriotism with nationalism, as the lines blur a lot. Here, nationalism could perhaps be explained as being, or possessing, a love of ones specific country, the language, culture etc; patriotism can sometimes include values and attitudes that encompass many countries. I also get the feeling nationalism means a more direct involvement, or attempted involvement, in the direction of ones countries future.

Any thoughts? Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
If I live in Russia and know that it is great to live in Australia - does it make me a patriot of Australia?
True nationalism is almost impossible nowadays, since people got mixed up and stirred way to well since WWII to have a "nation" in almost any country of the world...

Daiichidoku
10-29-2007, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Tab_Flettner:
Avro your little slide show left out one picture...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/mr_coffee/DSC01912.jpg

thats not British!

its not on toast, they put everything on toast http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HotelBushranger
10-29-2007, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
I like this topic, it's very complex http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Usually the very overt 'patriots', i.e. ones that shout nationalistic slogans (often in the heat of the moment and influenced by media) and gratuitously wave flags often are the most ignorant and close minded, also probably possessing little knowledge of their countries history. This is how I see it in Australia at least. To be a patriot, one doesn't have to go around saying how good, for example, Oz is. They are more likely trying to consolidate their own superiority complex over others. To be a patriot means to modestly, confidently and justifiably feel that your country is a good place to live, not necessarily in a direct competition with others, but to just know that, for example, Australia is a great place to live.

It gets interesting when one tries to distinguish patriotism with nationalism, as the lines blur a lot. Here, nationalism could perhaps be explained as being, or possessing, a love of ones specific country, the language, culture etc; patriotism can sometimes include values and attitudes that encompass many countries. I also get the feeling nationalism means a more direct involvement, or attempted involvement, in the direction of ones countries future.

Any thoughts? Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
If I live in Russia and know that it is great to live in Australia - does it make me a patriot of Australia?
True nationalism is almost impossible nowadays, since people got mixed up and stirred way to well since WWII to have a "nation" in almost any country of the world... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good point...see what I said about this topic being complex http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PikeBishop
10-29-2007, 07:42 AM
Dear All,
I do not consider myself very patriotic,but then again.....if you asked me whether I was British and not English I become very irrate. If you asked me whether I felt pride when shown a picture of R. J. Mitchell, a Spitfire or the quote "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed to so few" I get a lump in my throat and thoughts of what would have happened if BoB had been lost, so in that sense I would say that I was patriotic.....but not enough to go to war just because some ******* tells me to.
Best regards,
SLP.

stathem
10-29-2007, 07:48 AM
I was greatly affected in my late teens by the lyrics of a band called New Model Army...

These lyrics from their song My Country have always stayed in my head and echo the sentiments of many posting in this thread almost exactly;

(Chorus)
"So yes, I will fight for my country
The land that I love so well
Yes - for justice, a land fit for all our futures
Yes, I will fight for my country
The land that I love so well
Hear the voices of our history echo all around

(Third verse)
No rights were ever given to us by the grace of God
No rights were ever given by some United Nations clause
No rights were ever given by some nice guy at the top
Our rights they were bought by all the blood
And all the tears of all our
Grandmothers, grandfathers before"

JG52Uther
10-29-2007, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
I was greatly affected in my late teens by the lyrics of a band called New Model Army...

These lyrics from their song My Country have always stayed in my head and echo the sentiments of many posting in this thread almost exactly;

(Chorus)
"So yes, I will fight for my country
The land that I love so well
Yes - for justice, a land fit for all our futures
Yes, I will fight for my country
The land that I love so well
Hear the voices of our history echo all around

(Third verse)
No rights were ever given to us by the grace of God
No rights were ever given by some United Nations clause
No rights were ever given by some nice guy at the top
Our rights they were bought by all the blood
And all the tears of all our
Grandmothers, grandfathers before"
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif My country,right or wrong.

WOLFMondo
10-29-2007, 08:04 AM
Patriotism seems to be a great thing for the moral of the people but gets used as a tool for nationalism far too much for my liking.

When people can be patriotic about being a human, from earth, we might finally all get along and have a nice time.

HotelBushranger
10-29-2007, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by JG52Uther:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
I was greatly affected in my late teens by the lyrics of a band called New Model Army...

These lyrics from their song My Country have always stayed in my head and echo the sentiments of many posting in this thread almost exactly;

(Chorus)
"So yes, I will fight for my country
The land that I love so well
Yes - for justice, a land fit for all our futures
Yes, I will fight for my country
The land that I love so well
Hear the voices of our history echo all around

(Third verse)
No rights were ever given to us by the grace of God
No rights were ever given by some United Nations clause
No rights were ever given by some nice guy at the top
Our rights they were bought by all the blood
And all the tears of all our
Grandmothers, grandfathers before"
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif My country,right or wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of my favourite texts:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us the freedom of speech

It is the soldier, not the campus organiser,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate,

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial,

It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag."

buzzsaw1939
10-29-2007, 09:02 AM
I have this crazy dream that someday the people of this world will wake up and realze that were all mates on this big ship hurling through space thousands of miles per hour, and were all going to die!

What better reason to work together and get along!

World patriotism maybe ??????? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

WN_Barbarossa
10-29-2007, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by GregGal:
Hungarian patriots are the worsthttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
A US patriot loves his country. A Hungarian one hates everyone else. Huuuge difference.
I think patriotism should mean: "come on, I'll show you this great country, I'll show you its beauties, and why is it so formidable. Here in the 90% of the cases it means: f* you, stranger, I'm hungarian.

Pardon me, but this is BS, and it offends me, as a hungarian. Why do you suppose, that the bunch of flag waving skin's are the true patriots here and all the others are not patriotic at all? When did you hear your "f*.." quote from the man of the street? You mix up xenophobia and patriotism here.

And BTW defending the honour of one's nation on forums is an example for non-violent, every day patriotism.

huggy87
10-29-2007, 09:43 AM
As an aside, do other countries have some sort of allegiance ritual for their school children? Here in the US school kids are made every morning to stand facing the US flag and say the oath of allegiance.

PikeBishop
10-29-2007, 09:51 AM
No they bloody don't Huggie.
regards,
SLP....(England)

SlickStick
10-29-2007, 10:02 AM
Honestly, the New England Patriots have moved up my list of most-hated. They are currently #3. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

John_Pimlott
10-29-2007, 10:50 AM
For me, being patriotic is about not believing that your country is better of superior than any other, it is about loving it enough to promote it's good name and uphold good values. We are all embassadors for our countries and it is our patriotic duty to welcome, support, love and understand our international cousins. It is about remembering and acting on the historic lessons laid before us. We might love our country enough that we may never have to lead it into battle again.

Insuber
10-29-2007, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:


It gets interesting when one tries to distinguish patriotism with nationalism, as the lines blur a lot. Here, nationalism could perhaps be explained as being, or possessing, a love of ones specific country, the language, culture etc; patriotism can sometimes include values and attitudes that encompass many countries. I also get the feeling nationalism means a more direct involvement, or attempted involvement, in the direction of ones countries future.

Any thoughts? Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

A common definition is:

Patriotism is the love for your country
Nationalism is the hate for others' countries

I think this explains it all.

regards,
Insuber

Insuber
10-29-2007, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
One of my favourite texts:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us the freedom of speech

It is the soldier, not the campus organiser,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate,

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial,

It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag."


True, if you consider that the student, the reporter, the poet, the lawyer atc. were those soldiers.

Regards,
Insuber

p1ngu666
10-29-2007, 10:58 AM
George Bernard Shaw:

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.

i like this one too

George William Curtis:
A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle and patriotism is loyalty to that principle.

SithSpeeder
10-29-2007, 11:19 AM
I disagree with Shaw's definition above.

Webster's Dictionary defines it more like Insuber said, and that's how I have always understood it. Perhaps the hate part is a bit strong. Maybe more like:

Patriotism: love for or devotion to one's country

Nationalism: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

For example, Hitler's rise to power was a nationalistic movement.

Good topic of discussion.

* _54th_Speeder *

Rammjaeger
10-29-2007, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
1. Who was more patriotic during GPW: partisans, or ROA?

2. Who was more patriotic: Bendera or NKVD and SMERSh soldiers?


I would say the partisans and the NKVD personnel were first and foremost political soldiers.

Friendly_flyer
10-29-2007, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by huggy87:
As an aside, do other countries have some sort of allegiance ritual for their school children? Here in the US school kids are made every morning to stand facing the US flag and say the oath of allegiance.

Non in the western world as far as I know.

ultraHun
10-29-2007, 01:13 PM
Patriotism means teamplay for your nation when it really matters.

joeap
10-29-2007, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
If I live in Russia and know that it is great to live in Australia - does it make me a patriot of Australia?
True nationalism is almost impossible nowadays, since people got mixed up and stirred way to well since WWII to have a "nation" in almost any country of the world...

That's a good point...see what I said about this topic being complex http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that's my case. I am a Canadian son of Greek immigrants who has dual nationality, but I currently live in Geneva Switzerland. Geneva itself is really not like any other Swiss city and not considered really Swiss even. I have lived here long enough to vote twice in city elections here, I am still a foreigner but they have a law that after a certain amount of time as a resident we can vote in municipal elections (only one of 2 in Switzerland that do so). Again only municipal.

I have voted by correspondence in Canadian national elections...but have never voted for Greek or EU ones (sending Greek MPs to Strasbourg). Yet I am very attached to my family and Greek heritage and history. (Not to extremes and non-politically).

So, who/what am I? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

MEGILE
10-29-2007, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by joeap:


So, who/what am I? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

You Joe, are an enigma.

Sorry, just watched Batman forever http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FPSOLKOR
10-29-2007, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
1. Who was more patriotic during GPW: partisans, or ROA?

2. Who was more patriotic: Bendera or NKVD and SMERSh soldiers?


I would say the partisans and the NKVD personnel were first and foremost political soldiers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
ROA and Bendera's organization were payed for their deeds by first Abwehr, and then US (Bendera, as ROA was annihilated by the end of the War)... ROA consisted of soldiers and officers who switched sides and decided to fight "against Bolshevik party" by means of destruction of ordinary peoples homes, killing, robbing and raping civilians on purpose. In general, although they claimed to be Patriots, they were considered as traitors and bandits, and mostly were killed on site as rabid dogs. Bendera's organization was brought up by Abwehr as an organization that wanted Ukraine to separate from Soviet Union. While acting as "saviors of ukranian people" they managed to murder more than 50 000 civilians. So, who has more right to be called a patriot? One who defends his land against invaders by order of current (may be not the best) regime (which arrested hundreds of thousands of it's own citizens in an attempt to raise this country to the new level of civilization), or one who claims to protect people of the land against current regime by helping to the enemy (who's only goal is to bombard the country into the Stone Age (Yes, I point towards modern history) and enslave it's citizens), killing thousands of civilians in doing so?

Rammjaeger
10-29-2007, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
1. Who was more patriotic during GPW: partisans, or ROA?

2. Who was more patriotic: Bendera or NKVD and SMERSh soldiers?


I would say the partisans and the NKVD personnel were first and foremost political soldiers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
ROA and Bendera's organization were payed for their deeds by first Abwehr, and then US (Bendera, as ROA was annihilated by the end of the War)... ROA consisted of soldiers and officers who switched sides and decided to fight "against Bolshevik party" by means of destruction of ordinary peoples homes, killing, robbing and raping civilians on purpose. In general, although they claimed to be Patriots, they were considered as traitors and bandits, and mostly were killed on site as rabid dogs. Bendera's organization was brought up by Abwehr as an organization that wanted Ukraine to separate from Soviet Union. While acting as "saviors of ukranian people" they managed to murder more than 50 000 civilians. So, who has more right to be called a patriot? One who defends his land against invaders by order of current (may be not the best) regime (which arrested hundreds of thousands of it's own citizens in an attempt to raise this country to the new level of civilization), or one who claims to protect people of the land against current regime by helping to the enemy (who's only goal is to bombard the country into the Stone Age (Yes, I point towards modern history) and enslave it's citizens), killing thousands of civilians in doing so? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess the true Ukrainian patriots were the ones who allied themselves neither with the Germans nor the Soviets.

FPSOLKOR
10-29-2007, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
I guess the true Ukrainian patriots were the ones who allied themselves neither with the Germans nor the Soviets.
You forgot the main statement:

Originally posted by fabianfred:
A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government...
And the question is:
Are ROA and UNA and all the rest Patriots?

K_Freddie
10-29-2007, 03:53 PM
"Ask not what you can do for your country but what your country can do for you!!!"
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Whirlin_merlin
10-29-2007, 03:58 PM
To me.

Patriotism becomes nationalism when you stop thinking for yourself.

I would expand the earlier quote to 'A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from itself.'

MB_Avro_UK
10-29-2007, 05:21 PM
Hi all,

The link in my original post is sung by a WW2 British forces 'sweet heart pin-up girl' Vera Lynn. I think that she is alive today http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HWY_PK4bAkU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtfpX0uMspQ

She helped create 'Patriotism' in the British people at that time or maybe reflected the nations atitude? Maybe Patriotism is useful to a country in times of conflict as has been mentioned?

In my view, Nationalism relates to an oppressed or a perceived oppressed national group of people.

I don't regard myself as a nationalist. But I am a Patriot in a quiet and subdued way. No flags..

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Monty_Thrud
10-29-2007, 05:37 PM
Gockle o' geer, gockle o' geer

Rammjaeger
10-29-2007, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
I guess the true Ukrainian patriots were the ones who allied themselves neither with the Germans nor the Soviets.
You forgot the main statement:

Originally posted by fabianfred:
A patriot is one who is prepared to defend his Country from its government...
And the question is:
Are ROA and UNA and all the rest Patriots? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In those years, depending on the outcome of WW2, Ukraine was to be governed from either Berlin or Moscow. Its people would be screwed either way. Those who supported either side weren't patriots IMO.

Cajun76
10-29-2007, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Insuber:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
One of my favourite texts:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us the freedom of speech

It is the soldier, not the campus organiser,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate,

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial,

It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag."


True, if you consider that the student, the reporter, the poet, the lawyer atc. were those soldiers.

Regards,
Insuber </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point is that freedom is earned. It's the only way to gain it.

If not:

The reporter is censored.

The poet is never exposed to beauty.

The campus organizer is jailed or shot.

The lawyer is an instrument of the state.

There's a price that must be paid, because there's always someone willing to try to take it away.

Blutarski2004
10-29-2007, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Insuber:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
One of my favourite texts:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us the freedom of speech

It is the soldier, not the campus organiser,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate,

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial,

It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag."


True, if you consider that the student, the reporter, the poet, the lawyer atc. were those soldiers.

Regards,
Insuber </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I very much like the gist of your post just previous to this one. But I find this one a bit disingenuous. There is no cosmic third-party guarantor of anyone's rights. Rights are guaranteed solely by the citizens' willingness to protect and defend them. If the lawyer marches to war to protect his right to be a lawyer, he does so as a soldier protecting his civilian persona. It is the soldier who stands as the ultimate guarantor.

Bearcat99
10-29-2007, 07:41 PM
I started to lock this thread after the two posts by joe.08 and GregGal.... but because the rest of you kept this thing on track and didnt let their two posts deviate the tone of the thread I decided toleave it open foir a while. Kudos to you all. joe and Greg.. if y7ou post in this thread with the same stuff again your posts will be deleted. I know it is hard but keep current politics out of this thread... if you cant have this discussion on the merits of the question and use history.. then it will be locked.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

FPSOLKOR
10-29-2007, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
In those years, depending on the outcome of WW2, Ukraine was to be governed from either Berlin or Moscow. Its people would be screwed either way. Those who supported either side weren't patriots IMO.
Coming out from your judgement all those who came from New Zealand or Australia who were killed during WWII were not patriots, since they would be either under rule of Tokio or London and screwed anyway? All of the people who live in Kanzas and support war against Iraq or even fight there are not patriots (I'm not saying that it is a good or a bad thing), because, let's say, depending on the outcome of war their state will be either under rule of Washington or Baghdad and also be screwed? Then I'd have to say - something is waaaaay off in your understanding of Patriotism... There always is another side of the coin, and sometimes you have to choose - head or tail. If you choose what suits YOU most - then you are not a Patriot (there is a good saying in Latin for people like this: Ubi Bene Ibi Patria...). If you choose what is best for your homeland - you are Patriot. And most commonly, those who wave flags in peace time are nothing more than just loudmouth idiots. Now, one problem is left: What is good for ones homeland, and how to differentiate our own benefits from benefits to our homeland? Not to buy Japaneese cars in Europe? Or to pay taxes from your purchase, knowing that there is no such thing as Japaneese car anymore? To kick tail of some immigrant on the street? Or to provide him a possibility to assimilate, and thus increase your country's population?

Pirschjaeger
10-29-2007, 09:19 PM
Patriotism, whether demanded by a democratic, communistic, or socialistic government is political control.

Recently someone asked me if I were willing to die for my country. I told him I was willing to die for my country, only if my country was right. So, in other words, I am willing to die for what's right, not my country.

This question (Are you willing to die for your country?) is a wolf in sheep's clothing. More accurately, it should be ; "Are you willing to die for your politicians?".

From peoples' views, in general, the world is flat but in reality the world is round. Like one quote posted earlier, why should patriotism be limited by borders? I'm patriotic to humanity.

Having said that, my patriot duties means I will be either for or against my or your nation,...equally.

Patriotism in general, is every government of WMD.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
10-29-2007, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
In those years, depending on the outcome of WW2, Ukraine was to be governed from either Berlin or Moscow. Its people would be screwed either way. Those who supported either side weren't patriots IMO.

Two things come to mind:

Hindsight is 20/20.

Having to choose the lesser of two evils.

Fritz

Wepps
10-29-2007, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Hi all,

Dicey subject but means something to all of us. Is Patriotism beneficial or locked in the past?

Here's a link to a British version. Not sure about the scantily clad lady on horseback http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HWY_PK4bAkU

Should we all be one international family and forget the past?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Should we be? of course.

But how is that possible, when you have hundreds of cultures of peoples with different ideas on how things should be in this new world?

For example, Americans are often 'accused' of not learning French.

Well...why should we? I could walk around America all my life and never need it. In France, you drive an hour and you need to know German or Spanish.

It's not American arrogance, there is simply no practicality in it to us. There is no use for it.

We've drawn the borders. Now if everyone could just get along we'd all be fine. But NOOOOO. Everyone has to butt their noses in everyone else's business.

Without some serious threat of an armageddon, there will never be a unified world thought on anything.

Copperhead311th
10-29-2007, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Tab_Flettner:
Avro your little slide show left out one picture...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/mr_coffee/DSC01912.jpg

WTF? French Fries, pork'n beans & a pastry?!?
some kid of funky looking cross between a stfferd crusaant and aturkey pot pie?

csThor
10-29-2007, 11:19 PM
Patriotism per definition is the love for "your" country. However it has a vastly different meaning to some nations. IMO in the USA it's the "glue" that keeps the society (with its different ethnic, social and cultural groups deriving from the many immigrants among their forefathers) together. That sometimes leads to "funny" exaggerations - e.g. some of the flagwaving looks like a comedy from my point but it does mean a lot to the people who do it.
However there are also other countries - let's take for example my home country Germany. Patriotism is something we can't really define, but on the other hand we're hesitant to find a definition for us precisely because of the past. We've learned the hard way how blurry the border between patriotism and nationalism is and what it can do to a nation. We (as a society) don't want to see that repeated and so we (as a society) are wary of touching "patriotic topics" because noone knows what might happen but everyone still has the pictures of uniformed SA marching through the streets in the back of his head.

So bottom line is: What patriotism is can be taken from an encyclopedia, but what it means differes from country to country.

BfHeFwMe
10-29-2007, 11:21 PM
It's access to information that leads to freedom for most of the worlds citizenry. The better informed one is, the less likely he'll fear the invisible bogey man next country over.

If he don't fear the stranger, it's not so easy for a nut job to get him to march. A real patriot is also an informed patriot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Whirlin_merlin
10-30-2007, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:

WTF? French Fries, pork'n beans & a pastry?!?
some kid of funky looking cross between a stfferd crusaant and aturkey pot pie?

Have you lost all leave of your senses man, 'pork and beans' where is this pork?
Pastry, no pasty keep that r out of this.
And French fries, those are good old fashioned greesy chips!Yes chips as in chipped potatoes, not as in crisps which arn't chipped in any way.
It's as bad as the football thing, I mean the clue is in the foot bit.
And how on Earth can someone sit on their 'fanny'.
And another thing...

Oh dear I appear to be raving.

foxyboy1964
10-30-2007, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:


Have you lost all leave of your senses man, 'pork and beans' where is this pork?
Pastry, no pasty keep that r out of this.
And French fries, those are good old fashioned greesy chips!Yes chips as in chipped potatoes, not as in crisps which arn't chipped in any way.
It's as bad as the football thing, I mean the clue is in the foot bit.
And how on Earth can someone sit on their 'fanny'.
And another thing...

Oh dear I appear to be raving.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Badsight-
10-30-2007, 01:58 AM
Nationalistic Pride

one of humanitys biggest failings

Zenflyer1971
10-30-2007, 08:39 AM
Don't post in here often but thought this thread needed a post from me. To quote one of the greatest Irishmen of the early twentieth century, "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious."
Oscar Wilde
Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900)

You really can't beat that sentiment .........

Rammjaeger
10-30-2007, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
Coming out from your judgement all those who came from New Zealand or Australia who were killed during WWII were not patriots, since they would be either under rule of Tokio or London and screwed anyway? All of the people who live in Kanzas and support war against Iraq or even fight there are not patriots (I'm not saying that it is a good or a bad thing), because, let's say, depending on the outcome of war their state will be either under rule of Washington or Baghdad and also be screwed?

These aren't really good analogies. The Japanese never intented to invade Australia or New Zealand, British and Japanese rule weren't really comparable in WW2 in terms of brutality. German and Soviet rule were. Japanese expansionist policy in Southeast Asia clearly threatened both British and Australian interests and the independence of Australia would have eventually been endangered if the Japanese had won. So yes, I guess the Australians and New Zealanders who fought in WW2 were patriots. But the situation in Ukraine was anything but similar and the Iraq war has nothing in common with either. Iraq could not ever pose any threat to the US, never will. I wouldn't even call it a war, it is an insurgency and should be called the "Iraqi Emergency" os something like that. The average citizen in Kansas will be worse off anyway regardless of the outcome (defense spending growing ever higher).

With respect to the ROA and other collaborators, I don't blame them for siding with the Germans. Soviet rule was so terrible in Ukraine probably anyone else seemed better in comparison. However, I guess the bottom line is that when two dismal dictatorships are fighting over your homeland and one of them will get it anyway, the only sensible option you have as a citizen is to support neither side and generally keep a low profile while the two armies duke it out on the battlefield - avoid doing anything that can potentially warrant retribution. Even that probably won't work for many people but I just don't see a better option.


And most commonly, those who wave flags in peace time are nothing more than just loudmouth idiots. Now, one problem is left: What is good for ones homeland, and how to differentiate our own benefits from benefits to our homeland? Not to buy Japaneese cars in Europe?

Produce better cars than the Japanese do. That seems to be a good idea.

WN_Barbarossa
10-30-2007, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
Nationalistic Pride

one of humanitys biggest failings

Strange. What kind of "pride" do you prefer instead of the nationalistic one? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif


Originally posted by Zenflyer1971:
Don't post in here often but thought this thread needed a post from me. To quote one of the greatest Irishmen of the early twentieth century, "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious."
Oscar Wilde
Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900)

You really can't beat that sentiment .........

Can I try - "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse."

John S. Mill, who was the father of liberalism, by the way.

Friendly_flyer
10-30-2007, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
Patriotism becomes nationalism when you stop thinking for yourself.

Words of wisdom there, Whirlin.

sokil
10-30-2007, 01:51 PM
ROA and Bendera's organization were payed for their deeds by first Abwehr, and then US (Bendera, as ROA was annihilated by the end of the War)


FPSOLKOR, first of all it is Bandera and not Bendera. Secondly, shortly after Ukrainian independent state was announced on June 30, 1941 he was arrested by Germans and sent to Sachesenhausen concentration camp and was there until this camp was liberated in 1944.

OUN/UPA is a complex subject in Ukrainian history, and I would not just go declaring who was payed for their deeds by who.

There are numerous examples of "deeds" done by NKVD/ SMERSH including SMERSH soldiers masquerading as OUN/UPA members.

FPSOLKOR
10-30-2007, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by sokil:
FPSOLKOR, first of all it is Bandera and not Bendera. Secondly, shortly after Ukrainian independent state was announced on June 30, 1941 he was arrested by Germans and sent to Sachesenhausen concentration camp and was there until this camp was liberated in 1944.
OUN/UPA is a complex subject in Ukrainian history, and I would not just go declaring who was payed for their deeds by who.
There are numerous examples of "deeds" done by NKVD/ SMERSH including SMERSH soldiers masquerading as OUN/UPA members.
Bendera is a common spelling, so i used it... About the rest - as I said before: there's always more than one side. But for many people B. was still a bandit, and his actions cirtanly confirms this opinion. What were his true intentions, and can a bandit be a patriot - still a question open for discussion.
Oh, yes, those who decided that they should keep low and support neither side can not be called patriots...

sokil
10-30-2007, 03:56 PM
[/QUOTE]
Bendera is a common spelling, so i used it... About the rest - as I said before: there's always more than one side. But for many people B. was still a bandit, and his actions cirtanly confirms this opinion. What were his true intentions, and can a bandit be a patriot - still a question open for discussion.
Oh, yes, those who decided that they should keep low and support neither side can not be called patriots...[/QUOTE]

You started your post by saying that you wanted to test GPW knowledge, with all respect but this is not a test of knowledge on your part but an opportunity to put labels.

Also, in your own words a patriot is one who "love it's population (people who live in this country and make it so special) - and that's what makes him patriot." - well I guess that is the answer to your Bandera question.

CHDT
10-31-2007, 07:29 AM
I think it's time for British people to act as real patriots again, because, if nothing is done now, in 20-30 years, a remake of BoB won't be called "Battle of Britain", but "Battle of Britanistan"!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/new...7017&in_page_id=1770 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=487017&in_page_id=1770)

CHDT
10-31-2007, 07:35 AM
By the way, reading some of the posts here, I'm still amazed, but frankly not really surprised, by the self-guilt, the auto-shame now completely embbed in the minds of the Western man! Sad and worrying for the future, because someone who doesn't know anymore, who he is, is ready to be replaced by someone who still knows and loves one's ethnic and cultural identity.