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XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 02:49 PM
I'm wondering how you attack a formation of heavy bombers (lets say Pe-8s) with a american aircraft equipped with only 0.5 cal guns.

Those guns are only effective at very short range but if you close in to about 500m the defensive fire knockes you out quickly even in a P-47 (not to talk about P40 paper plane). The only tactic that offers little chance is fast and steep angle diving attacks but there still are the 20mm guns that will blow your engine easily.

Anyone has some tips or advice for me? How do you do? Its no problem in a FW-190A-8/R2 (MK108) but what about the P47, P51, P38 and all the other 0.5 cal equipped american planes???

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 02:49 PM
I'm wondering how you attack a formation of heavy bombers (lets say Pe-8s) with a american aircraft equipped with only 0.5 cal guns.

Those guns are only effective at very short range but if you close in to about 500m the defensive fire knockes you out quickly even in a P-47 (not to talk about P40 paper plane). The only tactic that offers little chance is fast and steep angle diving attacks but there still are the 20mm guns that will blow your engine easily.

Anyone has some tips or advice for me? How do you do? Its no problem in a FW-190A-8/R2 (MK108) but what about the P47, P51, P38 and all the other 0.5 cal equipped american planes???

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 03:51 PM
for bombers the convergence should be set father away like 1000m and do attack from above or at an slashing angle and DON'T hang there in the back like a lost puppy. Aim for engines.

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XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 04:03 PM
My first response is GOOD LUCK !!!

Come straight down ontop of them and leed fire on there engines or the cockpit never come from behind!!!

Blowing wings off is near imposible with the 50s but I have cut some yaks & fw in half with 50s but there much smaller

I try to hit there engines & start a fire then there doomed

also after you dive straight down continue your dive a bit & then come up from underneath them you can score some killer blows on there belly as your climbing back up

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XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 04:09 PM
You really have to hit vital targets with the .50 cals. Never attack from the directly rear angle. Come in from above or below...try and aim for the fuel tanks or the engines...I find it easier to light on fire bombers with .50 cals than any other weapon and with eight guns in the Jug firing at the target at close range you have a good chance of causing plenty of fuel leaks and engine damage to which they will never recover from.

Remember that allied planes rarely had to target large bombers and unlike the Germans who had to counter the B-17 raids, they had little impetus for a powerful cannon to knock bombers out of the sky (with exception of the P39).

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XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 04:17 PM
.50s are very effective at knocking gunners down, if you're good enough with your aim to get them. I find it sort of helps to think of the .50s as a very harsh AP round. They're not cannons and they're not light machine guns, they have behaviour distinct from both of them. Try and 'saw' your way through a target with the guns, rather than aiming for one specific point and hammering at it. Cannon rounds work like that in FB, causing structural failure and control surface removal, but the .50s work best as AP rounds, travelling through an aircraft to take out the internals.

Very often you'll be able to do medium damage to multiple systems by raking your guns across a target. In high angle approaches it's quite easy to make an engine smoke, kill the pilot, take out a control surface, and get a fuel leak on the target in one pass. Try and visualise making the enemy aircraft fly through your wing mounted guns fields of fire so that they move themselves through both sets of guns, raking the target from engine to tail. You might not get the satisfaction of just-plain-blowing-stuff-up like you can with the heavy cannons, but the .50 round is fantastic at crippling a target, even at long range. At close range it's pretty much the ultimate pilot killer when you aim well enough to hit the cockpit.

I've found that the .50 round is very effective at knocking engines out of their housings, and very easy to score enough hits to do so with. You don't have the hitting power per shell that you do with cannons, but scoring a hit is far more likely. Try and take bombers on with high speed approaches coming in directly from their 3 or 9 o'clock, or climbing 500 to 1000m above the bomber and then diving down on top of them. Aim for the cockpit or engines when you do this, rather than the wings or fuselage.

Bear in mind, when you're practising this stuff, there's no shame in turning on invulnerability and/or unlimited ammo, and setting up a mission of you Vs 16 PE-8s to refine your tactics.

Set convergence to at least 300m, preferably longer.


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XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 04:27 PM
All good advices.

There's a reason why people call the 6 O'c position "Dead Six" - and it applies differently to fighters than compared to bombers.

One thing we have to take in mind, is the accuracy of an AI gunner is very corky - in some cases they seem to spray almost harmless rounds into the void, and in other cases they always seem to chuck in a superbly accurate shot into your engine compartments. Generally, according to my experience in other MMOG sims concerning buff defensive guns, AI gunners, or "Otto(phonetic nickname for 'Auto')", was always subjected to heated debates. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Generally in real life, buff defensive guns, even those not on flexible mounts, were very inaccurate and unstable, and generally considered ineffective and inadequate over 300 meters - of course, that's not the case in FB.

Another thing to add, is attacking a bomber formation needed guts and discipline in part of the interceptors. You can't really expect an AI to do that in a game, especially when FB tactical AI(as opposed to their technical AI in dogfighting combat) seems to be really weak - I have a feeling that the tactical sense of AI is actually better in the game EAW.

What you need is a team of well trained, disciplined interceptors who would repeat attacks from the most outerparts of the formation, going in one by one in an attack+draw fire combination, which would be like peeling off the layers of an onion one by one. Generally if that attack is satisfactory, you can "peel off" a lot of bombers at a given time. The AI in EAW is also not satisafctory, but at least they have a very large formation of bombers, and interceptors which simulate attack runs to a certain extent. Inexperienced people playing EAW used to complain they can't accomplish missions where it required for the LW to diminish USAAF bombing raids - however, it was possible, and after gaining experience through practice, my flight would be able to swipe at least more than 30% of the bombers even in a limited plane like the G-6(EAW G-6 planes weren't equipped with gondolas or MK108s).

Another thing to minds, is attacking a buff formation takes time. Unless they are heavily escorted, you should take up a lot of time in attack runs, shooting little by little. The results, after about 20 minutes of continuous harassment, would be a breaking up of the formation, where damaged buffs lagged behing - and then you pick off the stragglers one by one.

Trying to deal with a large buff formation single handedly is suicide. Always follow your AI friendlies, and attack with them when they start the attack run, never alone.





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XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 04:41 PM
One of the reasons that the US went with multiple .50 cals is that they didn't need to go up against heavy bombers. If they had, I'm sure we would have seen more cannon-equipped US planes.

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XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 05:33 PM
Thank you for all those usefull advice.

I did some further testing 'til now and i found it most easy to ripp off elevators from a Pe8 in dive attack. Dive angle should be at least 50? at 400kph. Target the tail and if you're lucky both elevator come off in a singe attack run ceasing the bomber.

One problem i still got is the poor climbing performence of the jug and low level speed acceleration. It takes loooots of time to get the necessary 1000m above the bomber and again long time to get yourself into dive init position - that's enough time for most escorts to settle at your six. In online play it would be necessary to have a escort for the bomber buster jugs - great team play opportunity!

The only thing we need now is more AI-bomber-servers (and a lack of FW190s, Yak9T/K, BF109 w/MK108, ME262 and La(GG)s) ;-)

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 06:17 PM
come in screqaming fast and hold a solid long stream of bullets on the wingspot or engine of your choice.

XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 06:26 PM
PE-8 is bretty easy target for example Brewster, but you have to remember to aim for Pe8's wings.. they are particularly weak.. just hit the same spot for 2 sec burst and wing is off.. however downing TB-3s.. - forget it. Unles ur flying P-40 field mod and you use those nasty VVS rockets /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Sometimes TB3 crew bail out though when they are very slightly damaged...

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XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 06:37 PM
Sana_HvJ wrote:
- Thank you for all those usefull advice.
-
- I did some further testing 'til now and i found it
- most easy to ripp off elevators from a Pe8 in dive
- attack. Dive angle should be at least 50? at 400kph.
- Target the tail and if you're lucky both elevator
- come off in a singe attack run ceasing the bomber.
-
Nice technique! I'llhave to try that.

.30s work too. I took a Hurri 1 up for the first time & had gun convergence set to 100 because i thought i would have to be very close to kill anything. Then my first mission was defending against Pe-8s. Well I was anxious about getting too slose so started to squirt a few shots at long range. i scored hits all along his upper wing & engines. I decided this might work after all & started swaing back & forth as i closed with him. Those 8 .303s spray a lot of bullets & did a good job on the gunners apparently. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

It was probably just blind luck, buck hey, i;l take eem anyway i can get em!

- One problem i still got is the poor climbing
- performence of the jug and low level speed
- acceleration. It takes loooots of time to get the
- necessary 1000m above the bomber and again long time
- to get yourself into dive init position - that's
- enough time for most escorts to settle at your six.
- In online play it would be necessary to have a
- escort for the bomber buster jugs - great team play
- opportunity!
-
- The only thing we need now is more AI-bomber-servers
- (and a lack of FW190s, Yak9T/K, BF109 w/MK108, ME262
- and La(GG)s) ;-)
-
-



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