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Superio83
02-07-2006, 08:37 AM
When dog-fighting, I found that an untrimmed fighter is very hard to hold in place to effect an accurate gun-shot --- it's either nose-heavy or tail-heavy, just at the moment when a shot needs to be made. This is very unlike an advanced jet like the F-16. And worse, I read from the manual "In Pursuit" that says a shot is best fired with a moment of unloaded flight to avoid imposing unnecessary g-load. But this would result in an immediate drift away from a perfectly framed shot due to untrimmed condition. And because elevator trim takes seconds to stabilize, attempts to trim during dogfight is totally impossible.

It can be rather frustrating when I kept missing my shots even after much practice, even when sometimes the bogie is right in front of my gunsight. And yet when I go online, I come across folks who seeming are such sharp-shooters that they can hit anything from miles away.

I've read about deflection shooting, convergence, target sizing, applying them all, but still can't get consistent good shots. I'm using Saitek X52, of which the stick is very sensitive and the spring very light to touch. Is that the reason, or it's just me needing more steady hand?

stathem
02-07-2006, 08:48 AM
I too find the X-52 very light on the spring, but there is a thread here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7431008704) about tigthing it up up (whcih I am going to try tonight AAMOF, having found the perfect thing at work)

Have you tried mapping the guns to a button on the throttle?. That helped me avoid twiching the stick at the vital moment - a bugbear with me since I started flying.

As for trimming - elevator wise I use that continuosly and naturally during a fight to load or unload the stick, but that's just practise and instinct. Rudder usually goes to pot but I have high hopes for a set of pedals that i'm sweating on.

btw I'm a rubbish shot, so not quite sure why I'm giving you advice.

Chuck_Older
02-07-2006, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Superio83:
When dog-fighting, I found that an untrimmed fighter is very hard to hold in place to effect an accurate gun-shot --- it's either nose-heavy or tail-heavy, just at the moment when a shot needs to be made. This is very unlike an advanced jet like the F-16. And worse, I read from the manual "In Pursuit" that says a shot is best fired with a moment of unloaded flight to avoid imposing unnecessary g-load. But this would result in an immediate drift away from a perfectly framed shot due to untrimmed condition. And because elevator trim takes seconds to stabilize, attempts to trim during dogfight is totally impossible.

It can be rather frustrating when I kept missing my shots even after much practice, even when sometimes the bogie is right in front of my gunsight. And yet when I go online, I come across folks who seeming are such sharp-shooters that they can hit anything from miles away.

I've read about deflection shooting, convergence, target sizing, applying them all, but still can't get consistent good shots. I'm using Saitek X52, of which the stick is very sensitive and the spring very light to touch. Is that the reason, or it's just me needing more steady hand?

Well, you're mentioning trim, but only one axis is giving you trouble?

The pitch is what's giving you headaches, you feel...this is why you mention tail or nose heavy, correct?

Well what about roll, and yaw??

Pay attention to your turn and bank indicator, or your "needle and ball"

It seems to me that you're overlooking the fact that your plane is probably skidding. being trimmed in pitch is great, but being trimmed in roll and yaw will effect your gunnery too

That doesn't mean you constantly give precise trim inputs every nanosecond. It means practice being smoother with your controls

You might also find that you need some filtering, deadband, and input adjustments for your stick. This can be done in-game

Jaws2002
02-07-2006, 08:56 AM
There can be so many things that afect your acuracy: controls too sensitive, some planes are more unstable then others, could be wind, damage to the airframe. Some aircraft require a great deal of triming in combat.
A huge factor is experience. Experience with the game, with the plane and experience with the guns. I think is a good idea to find a plane you like and stick with it. After some time you'll be much better in that type then all others.
There are a lot of people out there that fly this game for four years and more. If you think about it is like the german aces that fought all the war and survived. They acumulated a huge amount of experience. That's why are like frigging aimbots. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Philipscdrw
02-07-2006, 09:07 AM
One factor I found was the deadzone on the stick. Don't have any deadzone, or you'll have to push the stick through it every time you need to change from elevators-up to elevators-down!

I heard of an airline pilot who, when landing, would deliberately put the aircraft out of trim (in pitch) and control the attitude on the descent by adjusting the pressure he put on the control column. I found that works quite well for aiming at ground targets too.

jimDG
02-07-2006, 10:29 AM
I trim for 450 km/h prior to dogfights (crosshair touching top of flight vector circle). I mostly end up shooting at 300-350 km/h, with about a ring, ring and a half deflection. Which is perfect - at 300km/h the plane is tail heavy, and is turning all by itself, and I need to make small ajustments with the stick to get the right lead. Besides, its good to have a centered stick while shooting - minute movements dont result in huge control responces (that, off course, only holds for a progressive stick curve).
According to that logic, one actually needs full back trim for a dogfight, but off course a dogfight is more than shooting, the a/c must also be flyable.

Superio83
02-07-2006, 10:48 AM
Pls correct me if I'm wrong, but a trimmed aircraft at 450 knots, when slowed to 300 knots, should become NOSE-heavy, not tail-heavy, or is it?

vanjast
02-07-2006, 11:55 AM
I'm always trimming, and as I get into a tight DF trimming the nose-up is a continious business.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

foxyboy1964
02-07-2006, 01:03 PM
This is something I struggled with when I first got the game. The only time I trim now is when I'm extending (running away). I always use FW190 and I find they become nose heavy at about 370-380km/h. As, in a turn type fight, you will likely be going slower than this I find the plane much more responsive without trim. It depends what your flying I suppose. A Me109 will start to become nose light at a lower speed than above.

D-Mentier
02-07-2006, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Superio83:
Pls correct me if I'm wrong, but a trimmed aircraft at 450 knots, when slowed to 300 knots, should become NOSE-heavy, not tail-heavy, or is it?
Yep it shoul be nose-heavy.
As for me, i trim just when not fighting, for combat i always set trim to neutral, because i am just used to having plane tail heavy.

Jetbuff
02-07-2006, 01:27 PM
From under 100m you could be flying sideways and still hit the guy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Just kidding... My take on this is that the problem is not just you the shooter, but also the target. Planes are far too responsive, even at low speeds imo. If you look at even the most hectic gun camera footage you'll see that it often looks like a slo-mo version of the game. Some have stipulated that this has to do with the frame-rate of the gun cameras themselves, but I find it hard to believe that pilots could routinely and continuously 'jiggle' the way we can in-game just due to simple physical limitations. I also think over-responsive controls at low speeds (surprising given how little airflow there is over the control surfaces at these speeds) contribute to both target 'jiggle' and hunter 'wobble'. Finally, it strikes me that these aircraft had a little bit more inertia when it comes to resisting a change of direction. FB planes under certain conditions will flip-flop as if they weighed barely a 10th of their real weight.

Xiolablu3
02-07-2006, 01:32 PM
Strange, I very very rarely trim my plane.

I compensate for all drifting using my stick. I cant be trimming in combat, there is just no time.

antifreeze
02-07-2006, 04:15 PM
It can be rather frustrating when I kept missing my shots even after much practice, even when sometimes the bogie is right in front of my gunsight. And yet when I go online, I come across folks who seeming are such sharp-shooters that they can hit anything from miles away.
The nose bounces about so much, I can't hit a damn thing because I'm spraying bullets all over the sky. I used to be quite a good shot back in v4.0 and earlier, regularly making full deflection shots from 300m. Now I'm not guaranteed to even hit an aircraft when I'm less than 100m dead on its six!
I just watched Dryer's 'tutorial ntrk', and also saw another guy's spitfire ntrk a few weeks ago. Both look like they're playing a different sim from me; complete control over the aircraft's movement. The pipper stayed centred in the reticle the whole time in both ntrks, whereas when I'm flying, the pipper bounces from edge to edge in the reticle everytime I touch the joystick.

It could be down to pilot skill, but I don't see how I could be any gentler with my stick than I am now.

Anyway, so you're not alone.

p-11.cAce
02-07-2006, 04:27 PM
In RL you spend alot of time trimming - when I was getting my license my instructor (who was a recent transplant from Spain) would always yell at me "treem...you must treem!" and then he would have me start a turn and more "treem -you must treem!" and all the way down final "treem treem treem". He was absolutly right of course - as far as he was concerned if you had to use more than your thumb, middle, and index finger to fly the plane you were not using trim enough! Obviously the light planes I fly are not multi-thousand hp fighters but the lesson is the same - if you want to fly smooth and shoot straight work that trim!

Lucius_Esox
02-07-2006, 04:39 PM
I trim my plane for it's optimum turning speed and just get used to firing either above or below it.

Xiolablu3
02-07-2006, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
From under 100m you could be flying sideways and still hit the guy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Just kidding... My take on this is that the problem is not just you the shooter, but also the target. Planes are far too responsive, even at low speeds imo. If you look at even the most hectic gun camera footage you'll see that it often looks like a slo-mo version of the game. Some have stipulated that this has to do with the frame-rate of the gun cameras themselves, but I find it hard to believe that pilots could routinely and continuously 'jiggle' the way we can in-game just due to simple physical limitations. I also think over-responsive controls at low speeds (surprising given how little airflow there is over the control surfaces at these speeds) contribute to both target 'jiggle' and hunter 'wobble'. Finally, it strikes me that these aircraft had a little bit more inertia when it comes to resisting a change of direction. FB planes under certain conditions will flip-flop as if they weighed barely a 10th of their real weight.

I think this is partly because our joysticks have such a small travel area.

The sticks in the German planes for example travel so far to each side that there is much more room for intricate manouvres. We only have to move our JS a little to get a big effect (because they are so small), it would be better if you could put your joystick on the floor between your feet and add a really long stick with a hand grip on the top. This would allow movement more like a real WW2 aircraft. You would have to move the stick much more to get the desired effect, and it wouold be much less sensitive.

Nigel_Woodman
02-07-2006, 05:02 PM
I'm a big advocate of flying in trim and in balanced flight; however, there is something to be said for trimming your aircraft at a "maneuvering" speed (if your attack degenerates into a dogfight). Maneuvering speed should be the average speed at which you are liable to end up turning and twisting. If you're trimmed at that speed, then the forces you feel on the stick give you a good indication of how close your are to a stall and/or or how close you are to ripping your wings off (you do use force feedback don't you?)

Another caveat: If you're lined up and holding a steady sight, then is the time you should be in trim...this rarely happens except when you catch your victim by surprise. Once you start maneuvering, all your shots are likely to be "snap" shots, the sight is never going to be steady on the target for more than a microsecond.

All this said, I have my stick hat-switch set up for trim, and I typically trim ALL the time in a dogfight.

Hint: A good way to get a kill is to anticipate the maneuver of your opponent, aim where he's going to be, and hit the trigger a moment before he crosses your sights. Let him fly right across the bullet stream. It's a good way to get hits on the cockpit and engine. I love to lay back a little when an opponent attempts to initiate a scissors and nail him with this one.

jimDG
02-07-2006, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Superio83:
Pls correct me if I'm wrong, but a trimmed aircraft at 450 knots, when slowed to 300 knots, should become NOSE-heavy, not tail-heavy, or is it?

i guess it depends on the plane, most a/c noses want to come up at lower speeds (unless its 150 km/h off course). at 650km/h the plane is gently curving downards, at 350 km/h its gently curving upwards (if neutral at 450).

Superio83
02-07-2006, 05:57 PM
Thanks for all the wonderful and generous tips to this thread I started. Learned a tonne.

By the way, I have been playing online at Ubi.Com for a while and found it frustrating --- it usually ended up free-for-all, blowing each other even before the merge. What I hope for is a good site for serious 1-to-1 dogfight practices, preferably in same aircraft such as the Spit IX HF that I like and fly in often, or similar equivalent fighters. Any recommendation? Seems so hard to find a good dogfight practice companion. (Note : please indicate the full site's URL in your recommendation). Thanks.

Nigel_Woodman
02-07-2006, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by jimDG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Superio83:
Pls correct me if I'm wrong, but a trimmed aircraft at 450 knots, when slowed to 300 knots, should become NOSE-heavy, not tail-heavy, or is it?

i guess it depends on the plane, most a/c noses want to come up at lower speeds (unless its 150 km/h off course). at 650km/h the plane is gently curving downards, at 350 km/h its gently curving upwards (if neutral at 450). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, I don't think so. If a plane has positive stability, and all but modern jet fighters do, (and even they have computer synthesized positive stability) As the plane accelerates the nose will rise; as the plane decelerates the nose will fall.

Trim primer for prop single engine aircraft:

Accelerate - trim nose down, left rudder
Decelerate - trim nose up, right rudder
Add power - trim nose down, right rudder
Decrease power - trim nose up, left rudder
Flaps down - trim nose down (usually)
Flaps up - trim nose up (usually)
Speed brakes or spoilers - small or no nose trim, right rudder as A/C decelerates

BaldieJr
02-07-2006, 07:10 PM
If you aint trimmin'
Aces be takin yo wimmin.

AustinPowers_
02-07-2006, 07:23 PM
If it aint trimmed, I don't want it.

Jetbuff
02-07-2006, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I think this is partly because our joysticks have such a small travel area.
That too and it contributes to the 'wobble' issue for sure imo. However, I think that the control surfaces themselves are perhaps too authoritative at low speeds. Since our virtual pilots don't get tired, it allows for some rather 'interesting' manuevers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

arjisme
02-07-2006, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Nigel_Woodman:
Trim primer for prop single engine aircraft:

Accelerate - trim nose down, left rudder
Decelerate - trim nose up, right rudder
Add power - trim nose down, right rudder
Decrease power - trim nose up, left rudder
Flaps down - trim nose down (usually)
Flaps up - trim nose up (usually)
Speed brakes or spoilers - small or no nose trim, right rudder as A/C decelerates Hey, thanks for that! This assumes a clockwise-rotating prop, right? It would be different if the prop rotated counterclockwise?

Also, can you explain the difference between Add Power and Accelerate? One is a throttle adjustment, the other prop pitch?

BadA1m
02-07-2006, 08:53 PM
I have the x52 as well. I assign elevator trim to the big rotary on top, I find it very easy to keep up with the trim that way. I dont worry about aleron and rudder trim in a fight, but I find it helpfull to keep my AC a bit nose heavy when closing so that I don't have to "push through" the center bring the nose down if I need to- I just let up the pressure a little.

Jetbuff
02-07-2006, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by ar****e:
Also, can you explain the difference between Add Power and Accelerate? One is a throttle adjustment, the other prop pitch?
I believe he means just going faster. At a higher speed but the same power, adverse torque is overcome by ground-adjusted trim tabs or even intentionally offset vertical stabs. (I think one version of the Spitfire had one of those, not sure though) These are designed to keep the plane trimmed at cruise speed and settings. e.g. if you fly the 109 at 400kph and 2100rpm you will find the ball perfectly centered. Adding power will require right rudder and higher speeds (e.g. after leveling out from an unpowered dive) will require left rudder.

Nigel_Woodman
02-08-2006, 08:58 AM
Interesting tidbits:

It might be reasonable to assume that the thrust centerline of the engine/prop of most high performance WW-2 fighters was aligned with the direction of flight, but, it was not.

Typically, the centerline was aligned a few degrees down and to the left. To confuse things further, the vertical stabilizer and/or the whole airframe might also be a little twisted.

The idea was to counter the effect of changing power settings. For example, as power is added, the nose tends to rise. Bending the thrust centerline down a few degrees helps keep this situation under control, especially at low speeds. Same goes with aiming the centerline a little to the left.

All this bending and twisting (it's only a few degrees) combines with the effect of torque and slipstream to yield the typical trim changes required in flight.

P.S. Forgot to mention pitch changes as a result of the movement of the aerodynamic center of pressure as speed changes.

JG5_UnKle
02-08-2006, 10:04 AM
1. Choose an engagement Speed
2. Trim to Speed
3. Kill
4. Rinse & Repeat