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View Full Version : what's the "negative knife"? a 190 maneuver



Glen44
03-14-2005, 06:43 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifeager to know

Glen44
03-14-2005, 06:43 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifeager to know

avimimus
03-14-2005, 07:18 AM
I don't know about the "negative knife" but it might be a common tactic:
When persued in the 190 you use your high roll-rate to force an enemy off your tail. You begin a sharp turn and when you see your persuer begin to turn with you, execute a 180 degree snap roll and turn in the other directing. He/She will then roll and begin to follow you. As soon as the other plane finishes rolling snap and turn back in the first direction.

After a few turns you will be flying at almost ninety degrees to your persuer and free to break away. It is an old tactic from WWII and it still works online!

Glen44
03-14-2005, 07:59 AM
wow,this sounds amazing ,it seems that <<butcher bird>> has this maneuver,thanks! avimimus

WOLFMondo
03-14-2005, 08:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by avimimus:
I don't know about the "negative knife" but it might be a common tactic:
When persued in the 190 you use your high roll-rate to force an enemy off your tail. You begin a sharp turn and when you see your persuer begin to turn with you, execute a 180 degree snap roll and turn in the other directing. He/She will then roll and begin to follow you. As soon as the other plane finishes rolling snap and turn back in the first direction.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats a scissors isn't it??!?

tigertalon
03-14-2005, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glen44:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifeager to know <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glen44:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifeager to know <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK, it was a maneouvre like that:

In this maneouvre Fw uses both advantages over spitfire together, in one maneouvre: roll rate and dive acceleration:

Assume both planes fly same speed, level flight, spit 200m behind Fw.

Fw rapidly rolls left to about 180 degrees (now flies horisontaly head down). Spit follows roll to left, but is slower. Fw then immediately rolls back to riht, but all the way around, for 360 degrees, so again it flies horisontaly, but head down. Now Fw dives, pilot pulling the stick back. In the meantime, spit tries to roll back right, to follow Fw, but at the time Fw is already inverted, spit is somewhere around horisontal. So, in the moment Fw starts diving, spit has to roll for 180 degrees and dive. This should leave spit far behind. Works quite well.

karost
03-14-2005, 10:32 AM
Wow....
tigertalon , Thanks alot

every time I try FW-190 , I will become a noob http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

now I learn what is advantage in batter Roll rate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Regards,

Roy_15JG52
03-14-2005, 11:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by avimimus:
I don't know about the "negative knife" but it might be a common tactic:
When persued in the 190 you use your high roll-rate to force an enemy off your tail. You begin a sharp turn and when you see your persuer begin to turn with you, execute a 180 degree snap roll and turn in the other directing. He/She will then roll and begin to follow you. As soon as the other plane finishes rolling snap and turn back in the first direction.

After a few turns you will be flying at almost ninety degrees to your persuer and free to break away. It is an old tactic from WWII and it still works online! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You forgot to mention that FW speed after 3 horizontal turns will drop below 300kmh and you are dead in no time with any expirienced "enemy" player...

TX-EcoDragon
03-14-2005, 12:39 PM
It's interesting to see this mentioned here. . .

This is an evasion maneuver that I developed back in IL-2 in the 109G6A/S, it later became a standard training component in TX SOP. It isn't limited at all to any particular plane type, but it may be of greater importance to something like a 190 than other more maneuverable sim aircraft if you have run out of other options. . . afterall this generally is a high risk and last ditch effort type manevuer when down low. You can do this with minimal E loss with practice, and you can do this against multiple bandits, you can do this on the deck or at 9K. . .but perhaps the most elegant and simple implementation of this is as a defense against a B&Z attacker.

One thing I have learned over a few years of demonstrating this in training situations is that many people fixate on the minutia of the stick and rudder inputs, and miss the main point of the evasion. The maneuver can be done with a range of bank angles, many types of rudder inputs, and will always require different throttle management depending on the particulars of the situation. The heart of this maneuver is this: appear to do one thing, but do another. . . and that, you have to admit, is pretty basic. What isn't as basic is that in order to make this work you have to have good enough situational awareness to know the bandit's disposition behind you. . are they closing, if so how fast, what type of plane are they, what type of plane are you, how fast are they going, how fast are you going. . .these have to be given some thought initially, or you will simply waste E.

In general the basic idea is best demonstrated against a B&Z attacker because this requires the least effort on your part to hold onto your E, and is described as follows:

You observe a higher E state enemy rapidly closing on you, but act (fly) as if you do not. Continue your previous flying style, I am usually doing light s-turns, when the bandit nears the range that you expect him to open fire (when they think you don't see them they will come into closer range and the more foolhardy ones will even throttle back letting their greed get the best of them) initiate a break in the direction opposite that of the bandits' bank angle as if you are going to simply bank and yank. . . but as you are rolling you should unload the G on the airframe (to 0G) and kick a little rudder ( I usually use top rudder first), against a high E state bandit this is usually enough to foil his guns solution by dropping below his panel as he tries to pull lead to fire.

If they are in a P-51 and you're in a 109, for example, be very careful as you will have very little control response at higher speeds and the 51 will eat you up unless you are slow enough (less than 400 kmh indicated). In the 109 it's temping to bleed your E state when a more maneuverable high speed bandit sixes you up, in a 190 the plane simply WILL bleed lots of E if your not careful, but this maneuver will leave you with most all of it that you started with, and will probably take a fair amount from the B&Z attacker as he tries to figure out where you went.

Now, against a co-E bandit or turn fighter type this works even better, but is more involved:

I often set this up by starting what looks like the good old scissors. A good marksman behind you will like this as he thinks you are now flying a predictable path where he can get you as you cross in front of him, and he will usually allow one or two passes to figure out your scissors style before going guns hot. I allow one or two low G scissors usually before I
stop the scissors (I want the bandit more in line with my flight path not leading it too much that's why I said Low G). At the point of the break roll push the elevator fully forward and time this so that as you hit anywhere from 70-120 degrees of bank you are actually turning towards the belly of the aircraft instead of the canopy. Hold this for ~1-2 seconds, depending on the situation give a quick power chop and just as quick get the power back in, then roll a little closer to inverted and commence normal turn. . . you will usually get the bandit to move over head and you will be just behind his 6 low. This happens because as you bank the bandit will monitor you for a moment, and pull some lead to bring his guns onto you, as he pulls lead he will not see you behind his panel and will usually have lessened his pull inside yours and be waiting for you to come up in his gunsight again, when you dont he will roll the other way to see you, and at this point you will now have ~180 of bank angle difference and be turning right into him, since you did that breif power cut, and have set up a high angle off, you have set up an overshoot, normally the turn and burn types will not keep their E during this, they will isntead pull power to try to stay "behind" you but meanwhile you are near your previous E state, in essence you have just gained the E advantage and the ability to engage them, or exit that engagement at will. Personally, I turn this into a reversal by following the break with a roll reversal into a barrel roll over the top of the bandit so now I am actually have a higher E state than he does and I am at his 6 high and in his confusion he usually isn't a hard target. From his view the two of you are co-E and in close quarters, where he wants you, and This will dissorient the bandit at your six as you don't appear where he thought you would, and gives you time to change your angles while he's not looking set up an overshoot and reversal. While this is going on he probably cut power, but since you have already established closure he will be too late to prevent himself from overshooting, at this point his power is probably at idle, and staying there. . .and he is pulling high Gs. . .buring what E he once had, and soon he sees where this is going. . .but too late.

karost
03-14-2005, 01:33 PM
Hi, EcoDragon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
That is a good post , Thanks

if possible when you have a free time , I would like to read more about FW-190 tactics ( history tactic like JG-26 ) something like - vector roll and etc..

Regards,

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

hobnail
03-14-2005, 05:13 PM
Rollrate is fine but the nasty stall characteristics (especially after collecting a single LMG round to either wing) of the 190 make it difficult.

Sigh, scissor right, scissor left, sciss... *shudder*shudder*shudder* STALL splat.

Bull_dog_
03-14-2005, 06:43 PM
A negative knife can be done with any aircraft. The AI uses it quite a lot in conjunction with a barrel roll...it is quite simple....roll your plane and push forward on the stick....the negative comes from the negative G's and the knife...from the position of the aircraft which is usually around ninety degrees.

This creates and optical illusion and because of the good rate of roll and the illusion, your enemy will not follow the manuever and have to reverse roll so he can use a lift vector to follow...as this occurs, you simply use your lift vector and get a big jump in a turn...of course with a Fw you can't out turn, but it gives you a good lead.

TX-Zen
03-14-2005, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hobnail:
Rollrate is fine but the nasty stall characteristics (especially after collecting a single LMG round to either wing) of the 190 make it difficult.

Sigh, scissor right, scissor left, sciss... *shudder*shudder*shudder* STALL splat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Practice practice practice.

This is indeed the normal behavior of the 190 during a scissors and also often snap stalls crossing 320km/h during heavy maneuvers...but this is why practice is important because despite all that, the scissors can be effectively flown if you fly it properly.

Combat flaps help immensely during a scissors, I always deploy them for added controllability.

avimimus
03-14-2005, 07:56 PM
"Thats a scissors isn't it??!?"

Technically a scissors is similar except you are trying to bleed speed.

As mentioned above this maneuver is done to increase the aspect angle with respect to your enemy and one tries to gain speed well doing it. So, it is quite different.

I read about it in a book and then one our of the two times I got Il-2 working multiplayer I used it for the first time and lost my persuer.

With practice it works quite well. If one can avoid a high speed stall/spin which will kill it!

It should also work with the P-39 and (my beloved) Mig-3.

Fehler
03-14-2005, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by avimimus:
"Thats a scissors isn't it??!?"

Technically a scissors is similar except you are trying to bleed speed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. You can think of a scissors as trying to fly the longest distance in the shortest airspace while still moving forward. You try to force a co-E state between your plane and the bandit where you can then use your planes strengths against the other guy. A rolling scissors just includes the X, Y, and Z planes to do the same thing.

Glen44
03-15-2005, 07:16 AM
I am very glad to see several presbyters in this post.To me,a non-english speaker,TX-EcoDragon's post will cost me some time to digest. TX,Texas?I remember in 1840s,TX was "single star rep." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Your website is very good.

Btw,if a 190, whose speed is above 450 km/h,is being chased by a bandit with a 100-200 higher speed.Can 190 do a "vertical barrel roll"?I mean go UP,not down.If bandit can't shot 190 within several seconds,he will probably overshoot,then 190 try best to shoot at bandit.Is this feasible ? Maybe we need many many practice,some trim,some courage,some luck......and perheps at last both are good targets ,both need buddies to help.

Bull_dog_
03-15-2005, 06:12 PM
Anytime a bandit has that kind of speed advantage, you can make him overshoot....aircraft with good high speed control authority though will hit you as you manuever...Jug or Mustang...even spit, but a spit can't roll well at high speed so if you plan correctly and change direction suddenly he will miss.

Aircraft like 109's, Migs, some Yaks, zekes, lightnings have very poor high speed controls so it is quite easy to make them overshoot....

Problem is in a Fw the rate of climb is poor so if they overshoot and go vertical, you might get a snap shot but if you don't hurt the bandit, you bought time, but not escape...however you likely brought your energy states closer....if you have a little altitude and aren't fighting a Mustang or La...dive...you will out run him likely

Glen44
03-15-2005, 10:26 PM
I agree with you ,only when my buddy is around me,or I find the bandit a bit late when I am already in a zoom, can 190 do this .To be frank ,this is a dangerous maneuver.