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View Full Version : 1.11 Relative Performance - 109F4, P-39N, P-40M, 190A4



XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:10 PM
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_files/FMtest.zip

I spent some time last night doing some flight testing of the Bf109F4, P-40M, Fw190A4, and P-39N1. The first thing that I noticed was that all a/c are capable of continuous loops even with combat flaps deployed. In the case of the P-39, very tight continuous loops can be maintained endlessly (see ntrk).

Some other flight characteristics don't seem to match the historical record. Here is a relative ranking of these a/c as they are represented in 1.11:


Climb:
#1 - P-39N1
#2 - Fw190A4
#3 - Bf109F4*
#4 - P-40M

Climb tests were performed in a combat turn. The P-39N1 had a considerably better combat turn climb than all the other
* The 109 climb could be improved with use of manual prop pitch. This could only be done however with constant threat of overheating and engine damage.

Dive:
#1 - Fw190A4
#2 - Bf109F4
#3 - P-39N1
#4 - P-40M

High Speed Control:
#1 - Fw190A4
#2 - Bf109F4
#3 - P-39N1
#4 - P-40M

Roll Rate:
#1 - Fw190A4
#2 - P-39N1
#3 - Bf109F4
#4 - P-40M


Fw190 elevator authority is not reduced at high speeds (see ntrk). The P-40 becomes a brick at any speed over 350kph, suffering extreme loss of aileron and elevator control.

Possible problems with the FM in 1.11 compared to historical data:

- P-39 climbs way to well relative to the 109 which had a much better power to weight ratio.

- Fw190 has way to much elevator authority at extremely high speeds relative to others.

- P-40 suffers from extremely low roll at medium to high speeds.

- P-40 should roll better at all speeds and not suffer from so much loss of control at medium-high speeds.

FLAME ******ANT (disclaimer) - This was not a scientific test. It is not aimed at 1C as an effort to alter the sim, only as a source of casual discussion for this forum.







Message Edited on 09/09/0309:15AM by faustnik

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:10 PM
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_files/FMtest.zip

I spent some time last night doing some flight testing of the Bf109F4, P-40M, Fw190A4, and P-39N1. The first thing that I noticed was that all a/c are capable of continuous loops even with combat flaps deployed. In the case of the P-39, very tight continuous loops can be maintained endlessly (see ntrk).

Some other flight characteristics don't seem to match the historical record. Here is a relative ranking of these a/c as they are represented in 1.11:


Climb:
#1 - P-39N1
#2 - Fw190A4
#3 - Bf109F4*
#4 - P-40M

Climb tests were performed in a combat turn. The P-39N1 had a considerably better combat turn climb than all the other
* The 109 climb could be improved with use of manual prop pitch. This could only be done however with constant threat of overheating and engine damage.

Dive:
#1 - Fw190A4
#2 - Bf109F4
#3 - P-39N1
#4 - P-40M

High Speed Control:
#1 - Fw190A4
#2 - Bf109F4
#3 - P-39N1
#4 - P-40M

Roll Rate:
#1 - Fw190A4
#2 - P-39N1
#3 - Bf109F4
#4 - P-40M


Fw190 elevator authority is not reduced at high speeds (see ntrk). The P-40 becomes a brick at any speed over 350kph, suffering extreme loss of aileron and elevator control.

Possible problems with the FM in 1.11 compared to historical data:

- P-39 climbs way to well relative to the 109 which had a much better power to weight ratio.

- Fw190 has way to much elevator authority at extremely high speeds relative to others.

- P-40 suffers from extremely low roll at medium to high speeds.

- P-40 should roll better at all speeds and not suffer from so much loss of control at medium-high speeds.

FLAME ******ANT (disclaimer) - This was not a scientific test. It is not aimed at 1C as an effort to alter the sim, only as a source of casual discussion for this forum.







Message Edited on 09/09/0309:15AM by faustnik

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:03 PM
bump

The only surviving flightworthy Macchi MC.205 "Veltro"
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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:19 PM
lets make this game unpleasant as possiable shall we....../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:34 PM
Some people have got nothing better to do with their lives..
How SAD!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

CMarky/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:34 PM
Deathsledge wrote:
- lets make this game unpleasant as possiable shall
- we....../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
-
<img
- src="http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_b
- anner_01.jpg">
-


Wait a minute Deathsledge. I wasn't freaking out about "the injustice of it all", I was just discussing the FMs in the patch. How is that making things unpleasant? Maybe we should just discuss the weather on the FB forum.

It's cloudy outside.

Have a nice day. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


CMarky,

unfortunatley, I have too many other things in my life. Discussions on this forum are a nice escape.





Message Edited on 09/09/0310:36AM by faustnik

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:41 PM
faustnik wrote:

- It's cloudy outside.


Can you back that up with some charts and hard data, or is that just your opinion? We'll need multiple, certified sources please, and not just statements from your neighbors, as they may have experience with weather in general, but are not trained on or have any direct experience with the Mk.IV Cloud. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:55 PM
Jeez! Cut the guy some slack :>

He made a thoughtful post without whining. He respectfully asked that these issues be looked into, without claiming the game is hopelessly broken until they're fixed (as many others tend to do).

I agree with the conclusions, based on readings of the historical flight test data - P-40 should have a wicked roll rate (certainly faster than the historically anemic P-39), the Me-109 should outclimb the "Iron Dog" (P-39).

Look, if you're taking the time to post on a flight sim chatboard, you're probably a historical flight enthusiast. Very few "casual" shoot em up gamers would bother with these boards. So why are you giving the guy grief for discussing the flight models vs the historical record, when he's doing it in a considered, balanced way?

Ok... (stepping off soapbox).

BTW, the weather here in San Francisco is foggy and cold. No charts or hard data to back that up, sorry. :>

Istari

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:00 PM
Fasutnik, Thanks for sharing, those of us with out the time to test really enjoy reading about these things without having to do all the work ourselves. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The loop thing
1. is true in most games. Around WW1 a French man set a record for 42 loops in a row i believe , & if he could do it with those old crates it doesn't seem like it would be that diff for more modern planes.

2. Won't be a very effective tactic to just keep looping.

3. May be right as far as I know just trading types of energy, so just think of yourself as areally great pilot who can loop all these old warbirds til the cows come home.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:09 PM
What a pack of asshats!

Faustnik was clearly using this board to discuss some changes in the FM's. Nothing negative, no complaining, just GENEREALY DISCUSSING Il-2: FB. Then all of a sudden a couple of know-it-all-aeronautical-engineer-wannabee-wankers start asking for charts?

So much for this forum, owZed by n00b's.


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Message Edited on 09/09/0303:10PM by Cardinal25

ZG77_Nagual
09-09-2003, 08:13 PM
Chiming in to support this thoughtful post.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:15 PM
n(_)(_)bz ownz joo!



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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:18 PM
Good work Faustnik. There are inconsistenties in the FMs of quite a lot of aircraft, and they need to be discussed.

All the asshats who just want to rag on someone who wants to dusscuss FB in a FB forum can just bugger off.





"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
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Former Würgerwhiner extraordinaire

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:18 PM
Burble!

<center>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.gorman/mortimer3.jpg

Nevermore!</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:18 PM
Okay, I am wank stain. I clearly see that the chart thing was a joke.

But that other guy is still a weasel poppet.

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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:24 PM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- Okay, I am wank stain. I clearly see that the chart
- thing was a joke.
-

Game set, and fs*Ing match, Cardy!

I'll Khyber pass you, see if I don't!



<img src=http://www.johnsonsmith.com/images/p1039.jpg>

Eeeeeeeeeee.......

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:31 PM
I like boobies.


http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/twitch.gif


<center>http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif

<center><table style="filter:glow[color=red,strength=1)">Warning: My intense sense of humor may tug at the stick crammed in your shaded spot.</table style></center> <center><table style="filter:glow[color=red,strength=1)">If you treasure your lack of humor please refrain from reading my posts as they may cause laughter.</table style></center> <center><table style="filter:glow[color=red,strength=1)">Heaven Forbid.</table style></center>
<table style="filter:glow[color=black,strength=1)">
<font size=+2><font color="black">Still loving my P-39</font></font> </table style>
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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:33 PM
BpGemini wrote:
- I like boobies.


Do you have tracks and screenshots to back up that claim?

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:40 PM
(.)Y(.)

<center>
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America: #1 military...#15 in literacy...
Because right wingers run our military
and leftists run our schools!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:40 PM
faustnik wrote:
-
- BpGemini wrote:
-- I like boobies.
-
-
- Do you have tracks and screenshots to back up that
- claim?
-
-
-
-



Uh ...I would vote for the screenshots at least.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:41 PM
This thread is owZ0red the the wanker patrol from CWoS.


Sorry to hijack your thread Faust.



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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:41 PM
faustnik wrote:
- Do you have tracks and screenshots to back up that
- claim?



Yes many many tracks and pics, but I wont share.

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/evillaugh.gif




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<center><table style="filter:glow[color=red,strength=1)">Warning: My intense sense of humor may tug at the stick crammed in your shaded spot.</table style></center> <center><table style="filter:glow[color=red,strength=1)">If you treasure your lack of humor please refrain from reading my posts as they may cause laughter.</table style></center> <center><table style="filter:glow[color=red,strength=1)">Heaven Forbid.</table style></center>
<table style="filter:glow[color=black,strength=1)">
<font size=+2><font color="black">Still loving my P-39</font></font> </table style>
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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:44 PM
Cardinal25 wrote:

- Sorry to hijack your thread Faust.

It had already derailed before it was fnebbed.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 09:03 PM
I have seen the light! Whiners Repent!

Discussing any issues with our beloved sim can only lead to unrest. We are here on this holy forum only to praise our heavenly sent simulation. Accept all aspects of our beloved sim as gospel. Do not question, just accept. Let the feeling of peace and harmony flow through you. The provider is all knowing and incapable of error. Only through this practice of acceptance, will we finally gain "a life".

I addition when flying our beloved sim, we should never use our simulated guns to harm an opponent. Simply inform him that he is in a disadvantaged position and retire to a more peaceful area of your simulated map. The most enlightened online pilot need not even leave his simulated airfield. He will only need to rejoice in knowing that he is existing in a perfect simulated world.

7Jg77_Mahatma

(formerly 7Jg77_Faustnik in a previous incarnation)

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 09:09 PM
You know something, it's a little cloudy here, too.

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Because right wingers run our military
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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 09:19 PM
p40 roll rate is off.

p40 had a better roll than p39 from the charts i saw here on the p47.

p39 shouldn't be outclimbing the 109F!


One thing though, I would guess to say the p39 might outperform the 109 at the lower alts in the game. If the 109 went higher the p39 performance should drop off.

I would like to see the m/sec climb for 109F4 vs p39N1 at around 2000-3000m.




S!
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Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 09:26 PM
faustnik

Actually your wrong.



It's sunny outside../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 09:43 PM
CMarky wrote:
- Some people have got nothing better to do with their
- lives..
- How SAD!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
-

Its clear you have nothing better to do with your life than to look at performace comparison test which some fella here took an interest in.

I applaud this kind of reserch some do here in this forums. And further more he was'nt whinning in my opinion,just posting his findings and observation.

I take it you dont care about acuracy,just wanna get in the most uber plane you can get and be a star.

Feck off and go play with your self.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 09:49 PM
Salute Faustnik

You do your tests, and then you qualify them by saying you didn't use manual pitch on the 109's.

So essentially you completely invalidate your tests.

I was flying online in a 109F4 last night and using manual pitch and I had no problem keeping it under 2800 rpm, and was able to use it to improve my climbrate.

It's not tough to do. You simply takeoff in auto pitch, then level off, and reduce your throttle to 10%. Then switch to manual pitch and lower it immediately to avoid damage. To say around 20%. Then set your throttle to 90% and leave it there. Then use your pitch adjustment as a throttle. When climbing set your pitch high. When diving, reduce it. In level flight, leave it in between the two values. Watch your rpm counter and learn to know what the engine sound for max rpm is. It requires some practice, but if you are going to seriously fly this plane, you'll take the time.

I am certainly not an expert in the 109's, but I had no problem with damaging my engine.

I got shot down a lot, but that was more to do with my 3 times running out of gas in the 109 at exactly the wrong moment... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Seems to me that the fuel consumption on a number of aircraft has been adjusted. I started with 25% and ran out in no time, then switched to 50% and ran out twice again. Maybe its my lack of experience with 109's. I usually fly the P-47 or P-40.

Go back and learn manual pitch, then come back with climb charts for the 109's.


RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:04 PM
You is wrong!

Cloudy!

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Because right wingers run our military
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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:23 PM
Buzzsaw,

I did do tests with autoprop off. I did get somewhat improved performance but, I am not sure if I was at optimum levels yet, still working on it. I am not a nOOb to the 109 but, did not want to draw a conclusion until I had become more familiar with the prop pitch/throttle settings in 1.11. I put the qualifier in there because I didn't want to mislead anyone in my tests.

I have appreciated your FM test posts in the past. Could you please test climb rate for the 109F4 and P-39N1 with 100% fuel and post results please.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:26 PM
7Jg77_Mahatma

(formerly 7Jg77_Faustnik in a previous incarnation)

Hey are still going to be able to eat cow? I'm keeping the gas cans and matches away from him.


DW

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:29 PM
.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

CMarky/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:38 PM
Sunny.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:47 AM
Salute Faustnik

Sorry, I'm busy with other things right now, cannot do your tests.


RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 05:22 AM
faustnik...

Your observations are totally valid.

The performance of many of the AC in this sim are far off of historical, KNOWN, values.

The P40 is IMHO the most borked in this regard. While it could be outclimbed and slightly outrun by the P39, in all other areas of ACM the P40 was superior. As noted it's roll rate was BY FAR, the best of ANY USAAF fighter type.
It was extremely good in the dive, probably only eclipsed by the P47 among USAAF aircraft. It had well harmonized controls, and excellent elevator and aileron response.

The problems with the P47 in game are well documented and need no further comment, other than to say, FIX THE THING!!!

It seems that with each additional patch we spiral down in quality and fidelity of FMs.

Why?

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:10 AM
I appreciate your time and posting. And it dosen't seem like a crack on the 1C team at all. They do incredible work and you can't please everyone. Been reading these posts for a couple months. Most everyone here are resonable in their expectations. But some just enjoy raising #@ll. Lol.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 09:02 AM
I fly mostly the p40 and have given up on trying any dogfighting above 2000ft simply becuase If you build up to much speed or need to dive away you are a sitting duck as your controls are almost solid at 300mph,so I try to keep all my fights under 250mph and close to the deck.

No1RAAF_Pourshot


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CAC CA-15 Kangaroo

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 09:32 AM
its a game dont worry about it, just try to have fun. I agree with many people on here seen the charts researched alot proved my points with data they dont listen unfortunatly. So I still do research because its a hobby and have a love for wwii aircraft, models, guncamera footage and books. So all we can do is try to enjoy the sim.



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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 09:40 AM
Rgr that leadspitter I still love flying my p40 even if it's a cripple,at least when you get a kill you know you earned it the hard way /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

No1RAAF_Pourshot


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