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JaVA_Zeehond
11-19-2004, 05:15 AM

JaVA_Zeehond
11-19-2004, 05:15 AM

269GA-Maxmars
11-19-2004, 05:19 AM
Warning, personal opinion follows.

Those dots are very very ugly. Either tone them down a bit (I think it's a matter of minutes for Oleg's devs) or get rid of them altogether.

VVS-Manuc
11-19-2004, 05:20 AM
I like the new dots. Better so than nearly invisible planes

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2004, 05:22 AM
I preferred the prepatch dots, they looked (to me) more realistic.

NegativeGee
11-19-2004, 05:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VVS-Manuc:
I like the new dots. Better so than nearly invisible planes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, particularly for those of us who run at high resolutions.

I think they are a reasonable compromise and very much like the upper surface "reflection" they try to represent at extreme viewing distances.

Diamondback_333
11-19-2004, 05:32 AM
"new" dots is good - i would call dem "old"il-2 dots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

and yes, they are nice for spotting enemies, but maybe they should be a bit lighter?

Oleg_Maddox
11-19-2004, 05:34 AM
We did them just as test. Becasue with the next add-on we may change them.

To make them smaller is impossible.

As for visibility - real pilots will say yoy that ti is sh....t and we know this ourselves.
However compomisses for the limit os view on monitor should be done, but which. We offer currently the best we found, which is possible to implement. and look now for reaction.

All was asking for increasing of visibility, but with pixels of monitor and limit of technologies (resolutions) real things are not posible. So should be found some compromise isn't it?

Lupo_Argentato
11-19-2004, 05:40 AM
Perhaps they could be made lighter?
However great work with the patch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
bye

ICDP
11-19-2004, 05:50 AM
If a slightly toned down version could be found then great, if not then keep the new dots.

269GA-Veltro
11-19-2004, 05:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
We did them just as test. Becasue with the next add-on we may change them.

To make them smaller is impossible.

As for visibility - real pilots will say yoy that ti is sh....t and we know this ourselves.
However compomisses for the limit os view on monitor should be done, but which. We offer currently the best we found, which is possible to implement. and look now for reaction.

All was asking for increasing of visibility, but with pixels of monitor and limit of technologies (resolutions) real things are not posible. So should be found some compromise isn't it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg i pray you...I PRAY you!!! Change this new feature because is simple terrible and orrible!

I prefer don't see the aicrafts that see these kinde of flying baals! Left the 3.0 visibility please.

Ok for compromise, but at least as a optino. Sincerly i can't fly with this kinde of "new future" is terrible, the worst thing i have ever seen in the Il2 serie.

http://ourworld.cs.com/veltrof2/grab0001.jpg

http://ourworld.cs.com/veltrof2/grab0002.jpg

Viking-S
11-19-2004, 05:56 AM
GO DOT´S!GO! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Willey
11-19-2004, 06:05 AM
800x600... bad

1024x768 or 1280x960... good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But maybe the black pixel could be more like dark grey (80% or so), that would lighten it up a bit.

609IAP_Recon
11-19-2004, 06:06 AM
funny - same guy above that is asking Oleg to remove dots has these frickin' ugly as can be icons by the dots.

If anything , do away with icons, and keep the great new dots!

I found this to be the greatest improvement yet - perhaps you need to get in a real aircraft and fly around - for awhile - especially on a clear day. I watch aircraft takeoff and land at a military base and I can see them from quite a distance - very clear against the sky on a good day. Fellow pilot takes pictures for me with distances - as well as the flights I've been on - I could see much better - very similiar to this game now.

SeaFireLIV
11-19-2004, 06:08 AM
I can`t D\L the patch yet (still in London), but 3.00 dots were fine by me. It`s funny, the whining for greater visibility, now they want the dots less obvious! Oleg cannot win!

Sigh...

Perhaps those dots could be `greyed` out more. Not so black, but I also heard that there was an option for the User to configure the dots? It`s in the Readme , I think.

Kannaksen_hanu
11-19-2004, 06:13 AM
Sigh... this will be a horrible fight.

IMHO current dots are ABSOLUTELY better than earlier ones. In RL you have other ways to see the plane, like movement, shining fron planes surface and so on... but the main point is that it really isnt so darn hard to see as it has been with old dots. Now you can fly without icons and the air combat is much more believable as targets are not lost instantly when you dont focus on it. Summa summarum: the LOOK of old dots MAY (and just may) have been more realistic, but the EFFECT of the new ones serve realism much more than previous ones.

I really hope that you dont return to old dots Oleg.

JG77Von_Hess
11-19-2004, 06:14 AM
I really dont like them
The limited ranged icons took care of this problem, if u wanted some extra view compensation, For a full switch i find them out of proportions. In Short Leave it as option to choose from by server if possible. If not possible i vote for old system.

Regards.

VH.

269GA-Veltro
11-19-2004, 06:19 AM
3.0 visibility come back!!! If you like this kinde of new U.F.O. considere that a lot of us considere it simple terrible!

This should be an option not a must. You can't oblige all the users to use this terrible new future. The patch is great, but these docs.....suck.

I don't like ask to Oleg, but this time a must do it.

SeaFireLIV
11-19-2004, 06:21 AM
Looking at the screenshots, it`s occurred to me that some people don`t like the dots, but are using ICONS anyway!

Perhaps the darker dots should be used for people flying with NO ICONS LABELS and the 3.00 dots be used for those flying WITH ICON LABELS.

I myself fly with NO ICON LABELS and the West Europe landscape can be particularly hard to see planes on (although, I got by with it), so the new darker dots would be relatively useful there.

The new ground/sea target dots are good, especially for finding friendly ships over the pacific if you`re using no Icon Labels.

I still think the black dots would benefit from being GREYED out in colour, instead of black.

JG77Von_Hess
11-19-2004, 06:32 AM
From online test yesterday "Hmm do we have barrage ballons in this one?" Why not let it be a server option to choose between oversized and the ones from 3.0? to be honest its an emmersion killer in current test formhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Regards.

VH.

JaVA_Zeehond
11-19-2004, 06:33 AM
Now that I read my post again and look at all the replies. I like the next idea that a few people gave=&gt; Tune the black dots down. Make them more Grey. However I have no idea if it would look better or not. Let's find out! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p.s. I fly full real so no icons for me or anything like that. (except speedbar on)

Keep the opinions coming pilots!!

269GA-Veltro
11-19-2004, 06:33 AM
I've put the icons only to see the real distance from the target. With this new docs, how you can see the real distance from the target?

Make some tests yourself.

269GA-Veltro
11-19-2004, 06:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77Von_Hess:
From online test yesterday "Hmm do we have barrage ballons in this one?" Why not let it be a server option to choose between oversized and the ones from 3.0? to be honest its an emmersion killer in current test formhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Regards.

VH. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the best answer at this point.

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2004, 06:38 AM
I found the 3.0 dots were a lot easier and less straining to see/ spot, with nVidia drivers that were released after and including v61.77

MSI FX5900 Ultra 256 running a Sony Trinitron (which sadly they don't make any more) 17" monitor.


Wait for the US planes and seafire handling abilities gripe, it is coming.


Oh, there is no option in the poll for keeping the 3.0 dots.

My vote: if anything, make it an option for old/ new dots.

Oleg_Maddox
11-19-2004, 06:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JaVA_Zeehond:
Now that I read my post again and look at all the replies. I like the next idea that a few people gave=&gt; Tune the black dots down. Make them more Grey. However I have no idea if it would look better or not. Let's find out! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p.s. I fly full real so no icons for me or anything like that. (except speedbar on)

Keep the opinions coming pilots!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grey dots were in Original IL-2. It was removed by user's requests. Interwsesting isn't it?

SeaFireLIV
11-19-2004, 06:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vagueout:


Wait for the US planes and seafire handling abilities gripe, it is coming.
. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. You are right there, even though, it seems to me the changes are realistic. I am a Seafire fan by the way, but like it real. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oleg_Maddox
11-19-2004, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vagueout:
I preferred the prepatch dots, they looked (to me) more realistic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really agree with you.
And my very goo friend - real pilot say the same me today after test.

Oleg_Maddox
11-19-2004, 07:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vagueout:

Oh, there is no option in the poll for keeping the 3.0 dots.

My vote: if anything, make it an option for old/ new dots. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure you are right. This voting will not have the real picture of output

269GA-Veltro
11-19-2004, 07:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JaVA_Zeehond:
Now that I read my post again and look at all the replies. I like the next idea that a few people gave=&gt; Tune the black dots down. Make them more Grey. However I have no idea if it would look better or not. Let's find out! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p.s. I fly full real so no icons for me or anything like that. (except speedbar on)

Keep the opinions coming pilots!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grey dots were in Original IL-2. It was removed by user's requests. Interwsesting isn't it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree, very interesting.....as for the people who has asked for this feature for PF.

Oleg, with the 3.0 you can easly see the Bf 109 for ex, but you have some problem for the others birds. Is not better change a little the color in 3.0, than change all in 3.01?

XyZspineZyX
11-19-2004, 07:20 AM
Seafire,
I prefer realistic as well.

One of the best ways to take out those pesky zeros, is with team work.

S!

Aeronautico
11-19-2004, 07:29 AM
Many planes behave differently and are harder to handle, apparently. I really don't know if that's more realistic, sure it feels so. Most of the whiners should be satisfied.

Mc_Wolf
11-19-2004, 07:40 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Anyone have a better advice on the dot?And how?

In fact, I prefer the repatched grey dot. I can also understood the dev team already tried to improve it. I wonder if we can make the small shape of aircrafts larger than present size. I really can't fly without icon. It's hurt my eyes after playing for a whole.

By the way, there are some limited for our pc. If all small shape aircrafts can reflect light, it will be more easy to find it.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
11-19-2004, 07:47 AM
dammit its never enough is it?
there were screenies posted on the PF forum and all agreed that they were good.
now we have them and they are to big FFS

the Dots are perfect at 1024x768 and higher so realy like to keep them ,i have problems enough to spot dots over the ground.

atleast try to make it an option or tweakable so everybody will be happy

RAAF_Edin
11-19-2004, 07:48 AM
I think they should be tonned down a bit... somewhere in between the old and new.

GOLDEN MIDDLE ... I say

Bogun
11-19-2004, 07:49 AM
I think I like the new dots. If anything need to be done to them - is to make them to start to fade away a little sooner...

Mc_Wolf
11-19-2004, 07:54 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif€€It's really a difficult choice to meet everyone 's teast. LOL but fade more should be nice.

A.K.Davis
11-19-2004, 08:05 AM
For aircraft: I'm somewhat indifferent. The 3.0 dots seemed more realistic, but I did often find myself straining my eyes and leaning into the monitor. I predict flying bombers online will now be truly pointless.

For land-based ground objects: I preferred the previous version. It should not be easy to spot a tank, much less a camouflaged bunker. Pilots should need to drop down low and seek out these types of targets.

For ships: addition of dots for long-range spotting is a HUGE improvement, however, there still needs to be a few more intermediary LODs for ships, particularly the large ones. Small vessels make a fairly smooth transition, but big capital ships go from single dots to suddenly expanding 10 times in size. A gradual progression for ship LODs is needed for much longer ranges.

Still popping from dots is better than popping into view from total invisibility.

One big problem, however, the AI still seems incapable of recognizing any ship more than 3km away and will take no action against them if ordered. This is a HUGE problem for attacking carrier groups and other major warships with bombers from altitude. If you up above 3000m, your wingmen act like the ships don't exist, even though they are being torn to pieces by flak.

"Unable."
"Unable."
"Unable."
"I'm going down!"
"Unable."
"Unable."
...

Arrrggghhh!!!

Hunde_3.JG51
11-19-2004, 08:11 AM
I run PF at 1600x1200 so for me the dots are one of the best parts about the patch, before that planes would simply disappear at very close range, MUCH closer than if I ran at lower resolutions. It is just as unrealistic to have planes simply vanish at very close range when thay fall below the horizon, and it is very frustrating.

PLEASE keep the dots for those who run higher resolutions.

269GA-Maxmars
11-19-2004, 08:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JaVA_Zeehond:
Now that I read my post again and look at all the replies. I like the next idea that a few people gave=&gt; Tune the black dots down. Make them more Grey. However I have no idea if it would look better or not. Let's find out! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p.s. I fly full real so no icons for me or anything like that. (except speedbar on)

Keep the opinions coming pilots!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grey dots were in Original IL-2. It was removed by user's requests. Interwsesting isn't it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As one of the people that follow this game since it was a forum on BlueByte site, I can appreciate the irony. But as a software developer, I have to say this situation often happens with customers. Can't blame them.. To choose, you have to experiment with your own eyes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

By the way, if we really have to live with those dots (which I hope not but am prepared to), why not fading them in the distance using transparency?

It occurred to me that when I fly with the ULM the problem often is not the size of other planes / objects in the distance, but rather their color (blending with landscape, eg. because of sunset, fog or other lighting effect).

A solid dot at distance feels like turning on radar..

Jambock__01
11-19-2004, 08:23 AM
I loved the new dots! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

There are some planes in IL-2 like I-16 that you realy cant see, and others like 109 that uses to be a big dot in distance. With the new ones, every plane can be seen. I love this new feature, and loved the patch. Its the best since IL-2 DEMO!

Willey
11-19-2004, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vagueout:
I preferred the prepatch dots, they looked (to me) more realistic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really agree with you.
And my very goo friend - real pilot say the same me today after test. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I liked the pre-AEP dots more. With AEP they became less visible until now. The pre-AEP ones were from Il-2 1.04 (or another Il-2 patch, dunno) to FB 1.22. The first Il-2 1.0 dots were bad (way too large) and the AEP - PF 3.0 dots were totally invisible at some distances with stencil buffer / perfect.

CHDT
11-19-2004, 08:44 AM
Typical: turn and burners afraid of boom and zoomers at last seeing them!

Or people running the game at low resolutions (to see precisely big black dots)unhappy that people using high resolutions see them too.

As simple as that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Leave the dots this way, it's great for gameplay and very realistic at 1280-960 and higher.

So, like Hunde said:

"PLEASE keep the dots for those who run higher resolutions."

PinkPriest
11-19-2004, 08:51 AM
At 1280x1024 it was really hard to spot planes before the patch. And if I just lost focus for a second, like checking RPM or issuing orders to wingmen, I would loose the enemy again.

Yes, at lower resolutions (1024x768 and lower) they may seem ugly, but EVERYTHING at those low resolutions looks ugly anyway. So, keep them, maybe optional, because they are needed at the higher resolutions.

269GA-Maxmars
11-19-2004, 08:53 AM
Well another suggestion: what about augmenting the dot size (hope that there is not a spam filter in this board..) when the game is run at high resolutions?

carguy_
11-19-2004, 09:07 AM
Due to hardware development border I`m aware that currently nothing better will appear in IL2series.I`m happy with the dots.A good compromise for realism and SA functionality.

JaVA_Zeehond
11-19-2004, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JaVA_Zeehond:
Now that I read my post again and look at all the replies. I like the next idea that a few people gave=&gt; Tune the black dots down. Make them more Grey. However I have no idea if it would look better or not. Let's find out! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p.s. I fly full real so no icons for me or anything like that. (except speedbar on)

Keep the opinions coming pilots!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grey dots were in Original IL-2. It was removed by user's requests. Interwsesting isn't it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know that.

I just made this pole to know what other people think of it. But if the questions in this pole aren't good, then I have no problem that this topic is deleted and I new pole is started with good questions asked by you.

The dots in 3.00 where fine by me, but if the dots stay like this then so it is. I wouldn't like to be a whiner nor am I one.

(sry for crappy english)

p.s. thx for the replies and the info.

zunzun
11-19-2004, 09:24 AM
First let me say thanks to Oleg and all the dev team for your work and for listen us http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
Regarding new dot I think you should have diferent thing into consideration.
Visibility at long distance: In this case I would prefer the old dot (not sure if 3.0 or better 2.04)In my case never have problem spotting dot at long range against the sky. Against the ground is really dificult as it should be (in my opinion)
Visibility at short distance: In 3.0 I found very dificult to spot dot against the ground (even in a turning dogfight) so I am delight with this new set.
So the problem, as I see it, is that with new dots you are able to spot planes at too very long distance (they seem to float because they are too far away and seem inmobile until you get close enough to apreciate movement).
For me the solution would be to have 3.0 dot at long distance (or even better 2.04) and then at a determinate one change to the new ones.
At long distance 3.01 is unrealistic and with a poor inmersion at close range 3.0 was the same (at least to me)

Regards

Da_eggman
11-19-2004, 09:31 AM
I would like to thank Oleg and the boys for such a great product as the IL2 series, but I gotta say, Please, Please dump the new dots, they are waaayyy to big! they are gonna ruin FR games forever, go back to the last dots and leave them there, with these huge "Blimp" dots flying around it will be impossible to sneak around for ground attack without being seen, please vote the new dots down!! thanks again Oleg

Tater-SW-
11-19-2004, 09:36 AM
The plane dots... hard to say, i never play with icons on, so as a form of icon, they are better than "real" icons. OTOH, they don;t look as nice, a little too obvious.

I didn't try regular ground targts, they should be near impossible to spot without getting low, IMO. Ships, the ships are great, the farther you can see them the better. Whatever you do, don't make ships harder to spot!

I think on planes, if there is some "in between" solution that gives slightly more visibility without making every plane totally obvious I'd prefer that.

I think the reason offline players probably like the dots more is that the AI planes have always been able to see everything, heh.

tater

crazyivan1970
11-19-2004, 09:37 AM
I run COOPs last night, and DOTs did not hit me in the eye.. even 50 planes engagement, it looked fine at 1280x960x32 dots just darker, but i didn`t notice them being so much bigger. To me it doesn`t really matter, i didn`t have much trouble seeing planes in old version.

Beckh_3.JG51
11-19-2004, 09:43 AM
Hi, man this dot thingy made me register at ubihttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Please, please bring back the old dots, the new ones are ugly, square and unrealistic!

TacticalYak3
11-19-2004, 09:47 AM
Personally I want to go from customized icons to no icons all the time. When I do play without icons I find it an eye strain, especially playing any length of time (1024x768x32-bit).

I like the new dots, and feel this is a good compromise for all concerned. I did vote to have an option for those who would like to customize this new feature, but of course I don't know what can be done (maybe a new mp_dotrange option?).

No offense to the poster who doesn't like them, but with icons enabled you're not in the same situation as the much larger text is easier on the eyes.

What's the alternative guys, folks who will re-adjust their monitors contrast settings, or individuals who will use ATI's special effects features to enhance dot visibility? Can't we keep it this way and make it more fair for most gamers with different systems?

While they may not be realistic, that point can be argued about any detail regarding this great game, right?

HQ1
11-19-2004, 09:55 AM
adding the dot maybe a good idea espailly for such as 109 pilots .but i think it seems little big too easily be spotted at 4000-7000m .maybe oleg you can tune it little grey .now its contrast to background is too high. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Zen--
11-19-2004, 09:56 AM
I like the new dots.

I prefer limited icons or no icons and the main problem of the game for me has always been fighting the inviso-dot phenomenon at high resolution. It's frustrating and discouraging to have the great looking scenery the game provides at excellent or perfect mode but not be able to find the enemy, and I don't believe in cranking down the resolution to 'game the game' just so I can see the enemy better. Doing that means I end up with a crappy looking sim just so I can fight. The new dots do a much better job than the old, at least for my system, and I like them.

It may not be purely realistic as Oleg says, but I think it's a good compromise for the sim. Maybe not perfect, but the point is to have air to air combat, not fight your monitor's resolution to see the bandit in the first place, or watch him disappear right in front of you when you should probably be able to keep track of him.

ucanfly
11-19-2004, 10:06 AM
Oleg for the love of God leave these new dots in! I can finally see other aircraft when booming and zooming. Let those other people that like disappearing dots disable the realistic dots if they want to but keep these bigger dots in PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hate using icons but find the old disappearing dots at less than 1 km COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC and FRUSTRATING! KEEP THE DOTS IN!

faustnik
11-19-2004, 10:09 AM
Love the dots!

Thanks 1C for working to solve on of our biggest issues in the sim! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ucanfly
11-19-2004, 10:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Love the dots!

Thanks 1C for working to solve on of our biggest issues in the sim! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100000000% !

MOhz
11-19-2004, 10:19 AM
I am for keeping the dots since this is only IL2 engine and hope for better in BoB and have very limited icons or none (chosen of course by server/host)

Bearcat99
11-19-2004, 10:23 AM
I think they can be toned down a tad or even set as a user option in the config file... like icon visibility distance settings.

Scen
11-19-2004, 10:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
I run PF at 1600x1200 so for me the dots are one of the best parts about the patch, before that planes would simply disappear at very close range, MUCH closer than if I ran at lower resolutions. It is just as unrealistic to have planes simply vanish at very close range when thay fall below the horizon, and it is very frustrating.

PLEASE keep the dots for those who run higher resolutions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right on the money

I think part of the problem is the fact that dots are rendered differently for different resolutions.

Guys that have 17 in monitors run mostly in 10X7. Picking up dots on my 22 inch at 16X12 is very difficult especially if they are below the horizon. It's very difficult and in most cases I find guys turning down their resolutions just to remain competative on limited icon/no icon servers.

The other issue which I don't know if it's been addressed is the dots disappering when you zoom your view. It's better to keep your view in normal or wide so you can see the dots.

I think some further testing needs to be done and maybe resolution plays a part in the solution.

Scendore

Mc_Wolf
11-19-2004, 10:30 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif After some test, I prefer the 3.0 dot, looks more realistic.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif Forget mention it, I always limited icon on, only visible on type and number, no distance within 1km

Tp Scen
I also find that in wildview will be easily to find dot. After zoom, you lost..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Bakelit
11-19-2004, 10:35 AM
Realism is fine and well but personally I prefer the new visibility as I have bad eyes even with glasses.

Liking eye candy myself formerly the sim was a tiny bit prettier but now I can keep better SA.

Perhaps best to make them an option in the conf.ini (if possible), then most people might be happy.

badatflyski
11-19-2004, 10:37 AM
DOTS???
Good in dogfight (easy to detect)
Ugly and completely irrealistic in cooperative missions

Please DEAR oleg put it like an option in graph settings! and so everyone can use like he wants!
spasiba

R96_Gunter
11-19-2004, 10:39 AM
In my point of wiew it's better to add this Black dots as an option in the difficulty settings.
It's very good for Dogfighter but in coop it's really awfull

carguy_
11-19-2004, 10:45 AM
Maybe a setting in difficuly menu that when "No Icons" switch is enabled,the big dots are enabled?I see that most dot haters are icons flying boys...wussies IMO but we have to get some compromise,no?

badatflyski
11-19-2004, 10:50 AM
sorry carguy; but u're wrong!

no icons; full real; no external views; no padlock; complexe engine; everything on exept the speedbar! and i thing that everyone who fly with me (we're a lot) has the same opinion.

good in dogfight
ugly in coop

we want it as an option !http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

gates123
11-19-2004, 11:06 AM
I would like to see this as a server side MP option between new dots and old. I think the ability to realistically bounce someone without detection has been drastically reduced (not realistic). Whats the point in camaflouge skins if everyone sees the same white dot from 6k alt. I liked the 3.0 dots better and the 1.22 dots the best.

Stiglr
11-19-2004, 11:07 AM
The black dots are simply necessary to project on a monitor what a trained pilot would see in real life.

At the range you could see a dot in real life, your monitor shows you almost nothing or in some cases actual nothing. This has been an unacceptable part of IL-2 for far too long.

They may not be the best aesthetically looking things, but I'd rather have them visible than to have "prettier" light gray specks that amount to bugger all in terms of visibility.

JG5_Ebbelwoi
11-19-2004, 11:23 AM
only with this new dots ati card owner can fly in perfect mode AND see the ground targets. keep it!

Boandlgramer
11-19-2004, 11:27 AM
for me the new dots are a step back .
unrealistic big .

CHDT
11-19-2004, 11:31 AM
"only with this new dots ati card owner can fly in perfect mode AND see the ground targets. keep it!"


That's right, with an ATI before you saw almost no targets either in the air or on the ground.

Sig.Hirsch
11-19-2004, 11:39 AM
The Black dots are nice for high resolutions , and it helps me from not getting blind next year because of IL-2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Some people were using low video options for spotting the ennemy first before because sometimes it was really hard to see the contacts below your plane .
besides i think that in a real life cockpit you had a better view than what we used to see on our screens , i think it's a good compromise , maybe very very very slightly smaller dots would be perfect IMO http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
as for the coops we'l just have to approach the ennemy formations from farther in order to get behind them without being spotted

Foo.bar
11-19-2004, 11:43 AM
i don't like the new black dots. the 3.0 dots were way more realistic.

TheGozr
11-19-2004, 11:47 AM
Great change i'd say. It's about time.

You can now see mettalic effect on the spot .

(Futur is for higher resolution Computers.
deal with it.)
But a dot a with this none BLACK color would of been even better. ( greyish )
Reduce black colors and add more metal look ( shine ) that would be a fix.

BaldieJr
11-19-2004, 12:02 PM
I like the dots.

But, if it must be changed, I like the idea changing it only when icons are on.

For us Full Real lovers, the current dots kick butt.

NetDaemon
11-19-2004, 12:03 PM
I love the new dots!!!

Running at 1280x960x32 here with an ATI AIW9700pro.

Pre patch, plane "dots" just magically dissapeared at distances of even 700meters, more likely against the ground and/or water.

With the new "dots", no more David Copperfield like dissapereance acts and they don`t look so large in 1280x960, just about right IMHO.

I was just flying last week with a friend in a Cessna around the country, and even at 1000meters altitude I could easily see cars parked down below, cows and other non-moving stuff. Let alone running cars, which were more easy to see thanks to the movement.

In PF pre-patch, you couldn`t see a tank at more than 300meters altitude, let alone bunkers and other static objects.

Regarding air to air sighting, when my friend was taking off, another small plane was on final in another landing strip, and even though we were at about 2Km from each other, I could see it clearly, I could even see that it was a twin-engined a/c.

Bottom line, Oleg please keep the new Icons for both, realism and playability; and for people playing at high resolutions too!!!

Thanx.

Vogler_3.jg51
11-19-2004, 12:05 PM
The Black Dots should go. When fighting full real, it drops the realism. Not to mention it is very difficult to judge distance until you are too close. I think the game is excellent, and the new patch is very good, but again the dots have to go.

JG510-Frogger
11-19-2004, 12:14 PM
PRO - "Black Dots" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

T_Rom
11-19-2004, 12:34 PM
In my opinion the new dots are very BAD!!

They don't increase situation awareness, they REDUCE it! This is because in COOP you see 10 large dots around you and it seems that all of them are less than 1 km away, when in reality they are much further away! It was much easier to estimate distance with old dots!

PLZ go back to old dots!!!

ICDP
11-19-2004, 12:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vogler_3.jg51:
The Black Dots should go. When fighting full real... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do people insist on calling it full real, it is nothing of the sort and should be called full difficulty or full switch.

Sorry, carry on with the vote http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NetDaemon
11-19-2004, 12:47 PM
How about "full anal retentiveness"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

BTW, I do fly "full something" too, so please no flames from FR pilots, ok? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

jasonburn
11-19-2004, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CHDT:
"only with this new dots ati card owner can fly in perfect mode AND see the ground targets. keep it!"


That's right, with an ATI before you saw almost no targets either in the air or on the ground. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jasonburn
11-19-2004, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CHDT:
"only with this new dots ati card owner can fly in perfect mode AND see the ground targets. keep it!"


That's right, with an ATI before you saw almost no targets either in the air or on the ground. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep, I agree 100%, please keep this dot.

What sens makes it when you cant see air or ground target over 1,5km? This dots look not very realistic, but make the game playable for non icon users and much more fair to all players.

X_Ray_B-S
11-19-2004, 12:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CHDT:
"only with this new dots ati card owner can fly in perfect mode AND see the ground targets. keep it!"


That's right, with an ATI before you saw almost no targets either in the air or on the ground. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes- now we can see grounds and airs! Let it is like it is!

cu
X-Ray

Habaya
11-19-2004, 01:00 PM
Definitely prefer the old dots in v3.0. The new ones look ridiculous. However if the new ones should prevail, can we please PLEASE have the option to switch them off as mentioned in the poll?

Monty_Thrud
11-19-2004, 01:12 PM
LONG LIVE THE DOTS...i love them...they look like the suns shining off the plane in the distance, i fly with no icons offline(FS) and this will certainly help my eyes, however it would be very nice to have them adjustable in Conf ini to suit all, but thank you for doing this oh and the water splashes aswell, now they look real http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gato__Loco
11-19-2004, 01:29 PM
Long Live to The Dots!!!!!!!

I like the idea of not getting blind when playing this sim. I fly at 1600x1200 resolution and I already wear glasses! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
It seems to be a good idea to make them a selectable option, given that many people do not like them.

Beckh_3.JG51
11-19-2004, 01:46 PM
Looks like majority of ppl want to keep new dots, thats pritty sad. I bet you many of those, who vote, play with the icons on or partial icons, why whould you bother about the dots, you got full blown tow banners floating around. Man its gonna hurt full switch flyers, but what can you do, majority wins.

jurinko
11-19-2004, 01:52 PM
those dots are bad. Why the hell the planes were painted light grey/blue/egg green on their bellys? To be seen like big black dots on the sky?
and why they were covered by tens of kgs of not smooth camo colour if everybody can see every plane from 5000m alt?

I am BnZer. I rely that to be 3km above the enemy in the sun I am invisible for him. I am also bomber guy, sneaking low to the enemy area, make a strike and run back. Should I be visible for every moron waiting above?

TheGozr
11-19-2004, 01:55 PM
jurinko i hope you R not flying with icons ON..

Hunde_3.JG51
11-19-2004, 01:56 PM
Hey Beckh, good to see you here.

I do disagree however, its not about full-switch or not, or even so much about realism because the fact is depending on what resolution you run, you get two entirely different perspectives. I run at 1600x1200 and it is totally ridiculous how easily planes disappear against the ground. If I dumb down my resolution to 1100x900 (I forget the exact numbers) as recommended to me by GOZR, then I can spot planes much easier.

So if I was running at lower resolutions I would not support a change, but at higher resolutions like 1600x1200 I think a change is needed. I don't want to be forced to dumb down graphics to be able to see as well as those normally running at lower res. Shouldn't those who run at higher settings be able to see just as well as those running at lower settings?

Still, I do understand your point but alot depends on your perspective.

ucanfly
11-19-2004, 01:58 PM
I love the dots and abhor playing with icons on. I guess at least some that hate the new dots want to remian unrealistically stealthy. I just want to be able to see planes at realistic distances withoutm having to revert to SA killing, soda straw FOV. dissappearing planes (certain types) at less than 1 km is a joke and I can see now why some hate to see that go.

I vote for realism - keep the new dots. No more cloaking device at 1 km.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
11-19-2004, 02:01 PM
KEEP THEM they are a bless for us BnZ full difficult guys

example: with pf3.0 and previous versions i could not see the spitfire 2k below me ,they are just not visible
now with PF3.10 i can see that little spifire 2k below me as im about to BnZ his @ss http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

TheGozr
11-19-2004, 02:02 PM
1024x768 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


269GA-Veltro
what i found a bit OFF from your post is that your complaining about the dot..??.. If i were you i would complain about the big icons descriptions flying with the dot.

your pic.
http://ourworld.cs.com/veltrof2/grab0001.jpg
But the solution is real close a nice dot with a less black color fading maybe or a black spot with metal effect.

Flat paint or special como paint will make a metal reflection no matter what .

My opinion on the dot is that i like it, it is the best so far .

Stiglr
11-19-2004, 02:28 PM
Even this screenie totally misses the point.

Nobody has that much trouble picking dots, specks or whatever out of the sky. At any res.

It's when they're against terrain that's the problem. Like the boom & zoomer mentions, it's IDIOCY to suggest that I can't see a Spitfire within 2km of me against background terrain, when I know he's there. Previously, he would most likely defeat any effort to track him. It might be somewhat harder to detect him for the very first time against terrain, but not that much.

And don't give me that **** about camo, either. Camo was most effective in helping planes escape detection while stationary on the ground, and much less effective when moving above terrain. It's the motion that gives them away, not to mention sun glints off canopies and metal surfaces.

I hope these new dots are "all that" when I finally get PF and have a look. I'd like nothing better than to be able to fly without icons, but with the old "light gray specks" they were definitely a necessary evil.

SeaFireLIV
11-19-2004, 02:35 PM
Can`t agree, Stiglr. I`d say more, but I`m tired tonight, maybe tomorrow....

Snoop_Baron
11-19-2004, 02:54 PM
I think this is the best compromise:

Make it a CLIENT SIDE option to turn them on and off.

These new dots are great compromise for people with certain video card/resolution/monitor combinations that made spotting planes overly difficult.

The old dots when you could seem them looked more realistic. But again not everyone who has this game could see them equaly well.

So let the user configure them on/off on their end (the server doesn't know what hardware the clients are using).

Additionaly have a SERVER SIDE option to limit the new dots maximum visiblity distance.

So the new dots would show on any client that had them turned on *guaranteed up to a minimum hard coded distance* (whatever Oleg thinks is a good value (for example 2000 meters)). The server could then limit them from showing at distances beyond this.

So one server could allow them on only up to the minimum 2000 meters. While another server might allow them up to 5000meters. After the maximum new dot visibility limit has been passed the old style dots will be used up to mp_dotrange DOT range setting.

I think it is great that Oleg has decided to run this experiment. I think a lot of us who have had technical problems with dots in the past really appreciate this. Those of you who had no problems seeing the old dots, keep in mind that while you may not face this problem on your system it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

I think the right way to continue is to make this configurable so that more simmers needs are met.

In summary I recommend:

1) Client side option to turn on or off the display of these new dot types.

2) New mp_dotrange server side option to limit max range at which the new dots will display on clients that have them turned on. But with a built in mimum new dot display distance (decided by Oleg and team).

// client option
alt_dot ON|OFF

// server+client option
mp_dotrange ALT_DOT 5 DOT 20 NAME 0.01 COLOR 0.01 TYPE 0.01 RANGE 0.01 ID 0.01

Where ALT_DOT is the new alternate dot type.

Best regards,
Snoop

Tater-SW-
11-19-2004, 03:30 PM
Stiglr is spot on.

Gozr has a point too, anyone playing with icons on complaining about the dots... lol. It's like having someone throw burning gas on you, then you complain about the color of the flames. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tater

FZG_Mak
11-19-2004, 03:49 PM
edit, double post

FZG_Mak
11-19-2004, 03:55 PM
Black dots make Online experience a complete mess, i cant tell what is the distance between dots 1km, 5km ?
I ordered my wingman to break from a threat that was actualy 3 km away but it appeared to be on his six...

Previous settings were fine !

it reminds me of first il2...and thats not a good memory. when you had noa a single chance to sneak past enemy fighters.

VW-IceFire
11-19-2004, 03:56 PM
I say keep the dots. There may be some kind of compromise situation with the dots themselves (perhaps a slightly checkered light grey/dark grey pattern which gives them a little less definition?) but I think its a heck of alot more realistic.

Reading Closterman's The Big Show he can spot aircraft that are miles away. Above and below...he mentions several times seeing the FW190's racing away down to their bases and the Spitfires calling it a day because they knew they were down there and it was time to bug out.

I actually agree with Stiglr, and that happens almost as often as the moon turns blue.

These aircraft were shiny, reflected brightly in the sun, and the cockpit glass even more so presented the opportunity to see aircraft from a distance. Its not perfect but its a technology comprimise (just like the lables are)...this is much better than having huge lables everywhere. Now you can actually spot something and wonder if its a friendly on an enemy.

Seeing ships on the water too...great stuff!

I would like to point out that I have whats known as better than perfect vision (my distance abilities are better than the average person) but it was simply impossible on my system to see aircraft in some situations. They would be above me say at a 50 degree angle...and if I pressed the DEL key to zoom I would see a black dot and if I went to normal mode it would be plain impossible. This sucks when you have no lables...I can't tell that he's there and yet he's within 3KM of me. Stuff like that...these eliminate it.

hobnail
11-19-2004, 03:57 PM
Ship dots big good
Ground targets ok
Planes bad

I have resigned my self to the fact that this engine won't provide the answer to plane viz and to bodge a solution in this way is worse than what it cures. As it stands we all have better than Chuck-Yeager vision.

My hope is for a toned down implementation but if that takes too much to fine tune or doesn't pan out, go back to the original appearance please.

IVJG51_Swine
11-19-2004, 04:11 PM
This might be a good compromise even for the full real crowd which I belong to. I'm in favor of it.

Dunkelgrun
11-19-2004, 04:33 PM
Love the ship dots
Hate the ground object dots
Not sure about the air dots although probably preferring the old ones.

Radeon 9800 Pro, 1024x768, perfect settings, no icons, ground pounder rather than dogfighter.

Cheers!

FAW-SPIT
11-19-2004, 04:53 PM
PLEASE NO DOTS in AIR SEA or GROUND..

If it's good for action gammer let it as optionnal settings. But please return to old dots!!
And also .. make possible to begin mission from parkings as it was possible before PF..

For real coop it's better to begin not on runway but taxiing to the runway is part of mission..

DGC763
11-19-2004, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 609IAP_Reon

I found this to be the greatest improvement yet - perhaps you need to get in a real aircraft and fly around - for awhile - especially on a clear day. I watch aircraft takeoff and land at a military base and I can see them from quite a distance - very clear against the sky on a good day. Fellow pilot takes pictures for me with distances - as well as the flights I've been on - I could see much better - very similiar to this game now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mate you should perhaps jump in a real aircraft instead of looking at them from the ground. It is hard enough to spot 737's when you have them on TCAS and know their relative altitude and direction from you. A lot easier from below than from above I will tell you.

How many real pilots have lost traffic they were meant to be following in the ciruit because they looked away for a second or two even though they knew were it should be. Mia culpa, I know I have and the fact that there are still mid air collosions in the circuit should tell you that aircraft are not always easy to spot.

For Aircraft this dot thing would be good if it came in at say 3km (1.6nm) but as it stands it is a bad compromise. I think they should be Grey and not black first and they should not appear until the above mentioned distance. For ships as they stand they are good. For ground objects I am willing to live although slightly toned down would be better.

PB0_YOYO
11-19-2004, 04:58 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

http://kaoss.250free.com/patch3.jpg

Thanks Oleg for the new pong patch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Sgt-Fuchs
11-19-2004, 05:01 PM
yes very cool!!
no need to upgrad of my hardware!!
now i can easily play in 1600x1200
this pong patch is cool only for the quake gammers

NN_Veverka
11-19-2004, 05:06 PM
Problem I see with with the poll, is that, for me, making it an option should be linked with "make them disappear". A lot of people don't like the dots, but don't mind letting it as an option......

For me, better were the dots pre patch, but if some like them, please make it an option....

TooCool_12f
11-19-2004, 05:06 PM
I'd make a suggestion:

- make the black part of the "dots" a bit "greyer", so that there less contrast

- load plane's "far away LOD" at a greater distance, so that it is possible to recognise them as planes (and eventually the models) further away

IVJG51_Swine
11-19-2004, 05:12 PM
I agree, I think a grey metallic look would be better if possible....

carguy_
11-19-2004, 05:16 PM
Wow I see opinions are really divided!

Everyone speaking for themselves I guess.Let me point out why is this good for me.

1.Just flew an online escort mission.For the first time I knew EXACTLY what was happening at a particular moment,where is the formation,where is enemy.In order to stay with escorted formation I don`t have to stay close just because the formation virtually dissapears when in the background 1000m lower than me.I find it very uncomfortable.Several times before I was haveing trouble finding the formation which I escorted which I find unacceptable.

2.Airplanes like Spitfire are no longer invisible in the background.

3.Personal view about flying combat.It imo doesn`t depend whether planes are visible/invisible against the background but on engine sounds and pilot SA.Currently with v3.01 the only thing that dumbs down my SA is the cockpit frame and I like it very much.It entirely depends on me if I see a fighter sneaking in behind me or a bomber formation below.That said in the mission I flew a fighter managed to sneak up on my six because I hadn`t checked my six!Not because his planes textures are too thin to view at 1000m.

4.Most online missions take place at very good weather at day time.Please don`t tell me planes should be invisible at distances with weather visibility close to optimum(few clouds).We have snow storm and rain for this.

5.I did spot one flaw,it is very hard to judge distance because don`t don`t change shape.If this is the only price for which my eyes aren`t heavily stressed I`ll take it!

6.I have SamsungSyncMaster795MB17' monitor.Judge it good or bad I no longer have to stare into it like as if I was trying to figure what eye color has a person in a picure.Now I can sit back,I see everything.

ivankuturkokoff
11-19-2004, 05:36 PM
STIGLR said:

It's when they're against terrain that's the problem. Like the boom & zoomer mentions, it's IDIOCY to suggest that I can't see a Spitfire within 2km of me against background terrain, when I know he's there. Previously, he would most likely defeat any effort to track him. It might be somewhat harder to detect him for the very first time against terrain, but not that much.

You ever chased someone RL in the weeds STIGLR ?
I have; and bigger aeroplanes than Spitfires and it is very easy to loose sight of them even inside 2Km. As for lookdown picups of lo level targets its really hard even when you know they are there.

I have spent countless hours running around in the weeds in SE Asian terrain (with non optimised Green and Gray camo) you could even easily loose sight of your wingman flying just 6000 feet abeam. Seeing aeroplanes in the combat ebvironment is really hard and takes disciplined lookout techniques. The Hot Air Ballons we now have are totally un representative of anything I have seen in the wild. Furthmore the 3.01 blobs and dots remove any range and closure cues, and these are crtical Air combat cues

What we had in Ver3.0 was pretty good considering the limitations of a PC.

Spectre_USA
11-19-2004, 05:55 PM
Choices are good...

Stiglr
11-19-2004, 06:42 PM
I'm not talking about down in the weeds combat specifically. I'm talking about the situation where my plane has a 2km cushion and can't see planes well below it, but well ABOVE the terrain.

This is the spot where camo isn't very effective, because the human eye can see the difference between a moving metal object and grass or buildings below.

A plane at NOE is harder to spot, both visually and for radar, which is the ONLY reason to ever be down there. In all other respects, NOE flying is a huge disadvantage. Planes above you (which is basically ALL other planes) have a built in energy advantage, and you don't have the option to dive for more smash.

There is a reason that fighter pilots normally didn't feel comfortable until they had a good 4 - 5 km of alt under their wings. They knew that it was good to have some alt to play with, and knew they could still see lower craft and go down and get 'em.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-19-2004, 06:55 PM
I see alot of people seem to be missing the point.

My question is:

Do you think that people running in higher resolutions should be able to see as well as those who run in lower resolutions?

If you answered "yes", which I hope everyone did, then going back to the old dots is unfair as it punishes those with large monitors who use higher res. If you haven't experienced just how bad/different it is at 1600x1200 compared to say 1024x768, well then...

A comprimise is needed, but simply going back to the old dots is not an option IMO if fairness is to be considered. Honestly this disadvantage for higher res users should have been changed long ago.

Tater-SW-
11-19-2004, 08:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ivankuturkokoff:

I have; and bigger aeroplanes than Spitfires and it is very easy to loose sight of them even inside 2Km. As for lookdown picups of lo level targets its really hard even when you know they are there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy to lose sight of them. This is a critical point. EASY TO LOSE SIGHT OF THEM. Not "impossible to lose sight of them," OR "not possible to see them at all." Easy to lose sight.

There are many instances with the old dots where it is utterly impossible to see planes that as you say, should indeed be EASY to lose sight of. That still leaves a possibility of making the where's waldo pickup in RL, however.

Whatever the dots are set to, they need to make it possible to spot a plane that could possibly be spotted by someone, while not making it automatic that anyone can spot them.

Now we can have a reasonable argument at what point ALL planes should be invisible to anyone, regardless of skill or experience. It gets fuzzy where we start talking about ranges where a only a % of encounters will result in a tally in RL. As long as that % is greater than zero, there needs (ideally) to be a visible dot that somebody can see. The problem with a sim is that many will claim that if it's possible to see it, it's over done. Another issue is that it might stand out like a sore thumb with your rig, and be totally invisible on mine.

I took a shot from a mission I've been working on, and before the patch, I couldn't see these planes from above, not ever. The range was well within icon range. With the dots, they are visible, but certainly not impossible to miss. To see them I needed to concentrate. (BTW, the image is massively cropped so I could post it with minimum jpeg compression---I didn't want it to be a shot of jpeg artifact dots)

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/dots.jpg

FWIW, I've also noticed that I see the new dots in wide FOV, at ranges where the planes are resolved in gunsight view (they have some detail).

tater

PS someone posted "no air, sea, or ground dots" That is absurd, the sea dots are desperately needed, without them, you have to be virtually in AAA range to spot a ship that would be shadowed in RL from 30 miles away.

musickna
11-19-2004, 08:37 PM
Personally I don't like the ground object dots, and mildly dislike the aircraft dots. I would like to see this as a 'realism' option only.

Tater-SW-
11-19-2004, 08:51 PM
Yeah, Id dump the ground object dots altogether except for ships.

tater

uhoh7
11-19-2004, 08:56 PM
at my setting the dots are excellent. They are tiny and look real. You have to look hard for them. I was blind before.

1600x1200x32 all excellent FX5900 ultra.

VF51_Flatspin
11-19-2004, 09:15 PM
I'd have to say keep the dots. Even though it's obviously unrealistic, so is trying to see things with my vidcard and monitor given that tech constraints don't allow us to see things as they truly are (and probably never will).

I consider it a necessary concession.

|CoB|_Spectre
11-19-2004, 09:31 PM
I prefer no-icon gameplay. To me, the pre-patch dots that faded into view were more realistic and challenged the pilots to be more "on their toes". I run 1024x768 on a 17 inch monitor and it worked fine for me. Now, you can't tell if a dot is an airplane two miles away or ten miles away. I understand the purpose was to enhance ground targets so they stood out against the background, but now you can see every ground target in the area. A blind man could see them. Selectable shades of gray would be a good compromise. Those who want to be able to see them could select high contrast black, those who don't mind having to keep a sharp eye could select gray.

Tater-SW-
11-19-2004, 10:26 PM
Seems like there has to be a middle way.

Though one question needs to be answered:

Does whatever dot solution apply to all objects, or can planes, ground units, and ships be treated differently.

If all have to have the same, then there is no choice but to keep the new dots, or have ships only draw in after you are over them.

tater

LLv26_Pihi
11-19-2004, 11:33 PM
The dots are too black now, how you can sneak enemys back with them? Please, make them optional, so online-wars can keep more realistic...

HQ1
11-19-2004, 11:40 PM
My opinion is that can Oleg make 3.01dot less spotable than now via tweak its color .if we live with current 3.01dot to have online war it is totally a disaster.Btw I only fly german side online http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

S.taibanzai
11-19-2004, 11:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beckh_3.JG51:
Looks like majority of ppl want to keep new dots, thats pritty sad. I bet you many of those, who vote, play with the icons on or partial icons, why whould you bother about the dots, you got full blown tow banners floating around. Man its gonna hurt full switch flyers, but what can you do, majority wins. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

100% agree those black ugly no real and dificult to judge distance dots have to go !

or make them a option for servers only

i fly real with speed bar on only

those ugly flying dots are distrupting my nice view

i like the prepatch dots reverd them back Mr Oleg

S.taibanzai
11-20-2004, 12:12 AM
please Mr Oleg make them a server option

like not real =new dots
real = prepatch dots

i dont like them at al its ugly and looking constandly around for enemy aircraft has go to the point zero for me, no fun to play at al now

i VOTE PREPATCH DOTS

Hunde_3.JG51
11-20-2004, 12:27 AM
Please DON'T make it a server option.

S.taibanzai, it is well known that at lower resolutions you could see planes MUCH better in versions 1.0 to 3.0. So how is keeping old dots fair to those who run the game in higher resolutions? Why should those running in lower resolutions have an advantage as they have had since FB was released?

We need a compromise, a solution that gives the choice to the user and not to the server if one can be found. But at the same time not allowing people to game the game. Dot sizes/shapes/colors/whatever dependent on resolution would solve this.

t0n.
11-20-2004, 01:14 AM
The new dots virtually eliminate BnZ as a tactic against anyone but the blind or stupid. This is untenable, they MUST go!

Trackerdog
11-20-2004, 01:33 AM
Why no light reflexes at the airplane pulpit as with "Mig Alley"?

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
11-20-2004, 01:53 AM
BLACK DOT sucks for aircombat ! its a huge step backward to Il2 time !

Dont let it remain like that, or at least place it in option !

If you like those black dots, play with Icons.. its the same.

really, its too arcady to my tastes.

269GA-Veltro
11-20-2004, 02:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
1024x768 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


269GA-Veltro
what i found a bit OFF from your post is that your complaining about the dot..??.. If i were you i would complain about the big icons descriptions flying with the dot.

your pic.
http://ourworld.cs.com/veltrof2/grab0001.jpg
But the solution is real close a nice dot with a less black color fading maybe or a black spot with metal effect.

Flat paint or special como paint will make a metal reflection no matter what .

My opinion on the dot is that i like it, it is the best so far . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I repeat again....i've put the icon only to see the distance. With or without icons the docs remain, and they are terrible.
Sincerly is quite sad that a lot of you could like this kinde of new future for PF. In this forum a lot of us is always ready to ask and stress Oleg because we need more realism ecc. ecc.....and now the same people who ask for realism, says that these docs are great.

De gustibus non est disputandum, but waiting for the 3.02 (i hope it could be really very soon, because i totally dislike the new docs) i would like that this new feature was only an option. Visibility in 3.0 is poor, but is more realistic.
At leas for me, realism first of all: non more surprise, no more B&Z, no more tactic with these "flyng balls".

...terrible...really terrible.

So at least for me, 3.02 docs and 3.00 docs so the serves could chose between these two options. Please don't oblige me to fly with this new "Play Station" feature.

Ugly_Kid
11-20-2004, 03:52 AM
I bought Radeon 9600Pro some months ago. First with PF I am able to use perfect settings, with the new dots I don't see myself very much handicapped compared to excellent and I can actually enjoy other graphical features in full.

What's the use of this bollocks if the only way I can fly is with excellent? That's exactly what I am going to do should I end up not seeing the stuff again. I would find it a pity since I have hardware to manage the perfect.
There's more to the world as your very own belly button...

CHDT
11-20-2004, 03:52 AM
These dots are perhaps a little too black: it could be a good solution to have only for them a 75% opacity.

Btw, I played yesterday on the very good full-real server "Fallen Angels" and I must say it was, with these new dots, much more easier to get an idea of the tactical situation on a precise area.

This brought much more interesting dogfights with pilots obliged to get more altitude and to prepare their attacks with some preparation: for one time, I saw in fact dogfights which didn't look like stupid furballs!

Btw, for people having done military service at Sion military airport, it is easily possible to see aircrafts coming either on Montana or above Saillon, what would be quite impossible with the old dots of FB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And don't forget, people whining about the new dots are the same ones playing on 1024-768 and seeing big black dots since day one of IL2 and liking it this way, because they can see the other aircrafts much easier than the ones playing at higher resolutions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So my modest idea about these dots: keep them as they are now, just decrease slightly their opacity.

Cheers,

S.taibanzai
11-20-2004, 04:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CHDT:
These dots are perhaps a little too black: it could be a good solution to have only for them a 75% opacity.

Btw, I played yesterday on the very good full-real server "Fallen Angels" and I must say it was, with these new dots, much more easier to get an idea of the tactical situation on a precise area.

This brought much more interesting dogfights with pilots obliged to get more altitude and to prepare their attacks with some preparation: for one time, I saw in fact dogfights which didn't look like stupid furballs!

Btw, for people having done military service at Sion military airport, it is easily possible to see aircrafts coming either on Montana or above Saillon, what would be quite impossible with the old dots of FB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And don't forget, people whining about the new dots are the same ones playing on 1024-768 and seeing big black dots since day one of IL2 and liking it this way, because they can see the other aircrafts much easier than the ones playing at higher resolutions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So my modest idea about these dots: keep them as they are now, just decrease slightly their opacity.

Cheers, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


i play at 1280x270 res 32 bits

monitor Flatron 795

and i saw good before patch 3.01 no problem at all
now its like i am playing in a pinball game instead of a sim
first to arcades settings this black dots
second they are ugly too
third no more fun in b/z
SAW no more needed why you see them from 20k or more away
fourth planes where not that hard to spot on ground before this patch
you must used your eyes and tacktik to find them but hey this is a sim thats is wat we suposte to do
and if the black dots must stay ok for me but only as a server option
no client option
why if we fly online wars its not fair to have one guy have the black dots on and the other not
so i say make it a server option and go back to the dots from patch 2.04

sry for the bad english writhing, its not my native language

thx

CHDT
11-20-2004, 04:39 AM
To say the truth, Taibanzai, I would be glad if a "middle-way" solution could be found.

Because I agree, the dots are too much visible now, but not enough visible before.

rookie66
11-20-2004, 04:54 AM
Old dots were better. Only for ships its better now.
We should see a big carrier from a larger distance than a car.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-20-2004, 04:56 AM
Hi,

There is a simple solution to this; make them flexible... i.e. part of the dot range config.

In the missions I've flown, I didn't think it made it a whole lot worse for bnz because you can see planes below you better than before. It was also easier to escort planes because it was far harder to lose them. As it's early days, this opinion may change but they seem ok (new dots) to me at present.

At the end of the day, though, the server admin is the one who incurs the cost of hosting and it should be their choice as to what the settings are.

Cheers,
Norris

NN_Sokol
11-20-2004, 04:59 AM
Normandie Niemen pilots's point of view:

Too much easy with new black dots, the best way is option in realism settings or like said CHDT decreasing opacity.

RAAF_Edin
11-20-2004, 05:24 AM
Oleg, it just occured to me that the problem, and such divided comunity about these new dots, comes from this factor:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bakelit:
Realism is fine and well but personally I prefer the new visibility as I have bad eyes even with glasses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, I don't want to be rude but, if we're to simulate reality, then people with bad eyesight should be having problems with seeing distance aircraft... and those who have good eyesight should see good, and I think everyone would agree with me... hm... actually when I think a bit more, this is a pc software (I don't want to call it a game, altough it can be one with available easy settings) and most people want just to blast things away... even those with bad eyesight.

How do you please everyone?
IMPOSSIBLE!

In real life, you wouldn't wanna take someone with 2nd class eyesight as a pilot, would you? But this software can be used by anyone who's got a PC system sufficient to run it. And we know good sales are a big factor in making decissions so how to have a realistic visibility???

I am aware that PC can not duplicate real life human eye "optical-system" but probably a good indication that dots visibility is realistic is when 50% say they can see them and 50% say they have trouble with them... or at best... real life human ratio of people with good and people with bad eyesight.

At the moment, with these test dots, I believe that everyone can see them, no matter resolution or setings they play... telling us that they are way too much visible. They definitely should be tonned down untill a 1/2 way compromise is reached.

haegri
11-20-2004, 06:23 AM
Personally, I think the black dots ought to be something you can turn on and off, a bit like the icons. Perhaps there could be original (FB)dots, grey dots and black dots that you can cycle through with a keypress. This would help you to develop your skill - for example, you could fly with original dots, turn on black ones just to catch sight of your enemy (if not using icons), and then turn them off again. I was glad to see that the icons became switchable in FB, where they were pre-set in the original Il2, and I think the more things you can alter from the cockpit the better.

I think this is part of the whole question of realism in flight sims. The view is the part of a flight sim that real pilots sometimes say is harder than the real thing. No depth perception, for example. I find a particular problem in FB that wasn't in the original il2, in that planes seem to get bigger when they're further away - at about .70 - but that may be a problem with my graphics card. In any case, it completely screws up flying without icons, because you can't judge distance for gunnery.

My particular gripe is that the more realistic the cockpit graphics, the less realistic the viewing situation. A real pilot can move his head to see around the window struts, or over the joystick to see the instruments. The gunsight view partly solves the first problem in Il2, but it's more effective in some planes than others - maybe it could be tweaked so that all the struts move in all the planes? Personally, I would rather be able to see the instruments than a joytick moving about all by itself - what about a 'panel view' option, like in MS CFS, which emphasises the useful things that a real pilot would be concentrating on anyway? Or at least an option to switch off the virtual joystick, and other things like gunsight furniture that obscure some instruments in some planes?

While I'm on a roll, another thing I would like to see switchable is the campaign difficulty. In the original Il2, I got frustrated because I started out on easier settings, and then as I got better I would have liked to have increased the difficulty, but couldn't without starting a new campaign.

However, I'm getting off topic now...

haegri

Glen44
11-20-2004, 08:08 AM
I believe OLEG is doing one of the most challenging work for SIMs.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

IMO, REAL PILOTS have the priority to express their opinions most of which indicated that they can easier to spot A/C in realworld than in V3.0 and before.Hmmmmm,now it's seems that OLEG went a bit far to the opposite direction prepensely.Since we can reach the two extremeness,can't we get the PROPER compromise???

The "new dot" is to get rid of ICONS which is used to compensate the limit of PC graphic( UNREASONABLE OLD DOT INDEED).So once we get a "proper dot",we will NEVER need ICONS anymore except those newbies,shall we?

Snoop_Baron's words are valuable ,but I do not agree with that:"Make it a CLIENT SIDE option to turn them on and off." NO!I can say almost everyone will turn it ON while playing dogfight and VOW as long as the ICONS are off.And probably the ICON's eradication is coming!

The truth is the truth,if we can spot a A/C from a certain distant ,we needn't server's option at all.Can server's options take the place of physics or GOD?

Just like VW-IceFire's words:"if I pressed the DEL key to zoom I would see a black dot and if I went to normal mode it would be plain impossible".
My opinion is to eradicate GUNSIGHT VIEW AND WIDE VIEW as long as we can get the "PROPER DOT",these are unreal! Maybe "telescope" will be added on in future,haha.

Someone says that those guys with bad eyesight will need assistance,I don't think so.My eyesight isn't good either,but the screen is 50cm away from me ,I don't need to watch above 3KM distance,so I have enough confidence to watch as clearly as those real pilots in realworld with my glasses.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I suggest that the more faraway the more A/C's colour blending with "circumstance colour". Maybe it's grey,green,brown,blue..........and the nearer the more A/C's skin color appears.In extreme instance ,if the dot's color is as same as the environment's,who will care or notice how big the dot is???? That is the compromise,IMO.

For example,one green plane and one red plane is flying on 2000 altitude above green forest,u watch them from 4000 altitude,these two looks very deferent: one nearly green and one nearly red,if u watch them from 10000 altitude,probably they are both near green dot that's very difficult to distinguish from the forest.

we all konw planes with black all over is easier to find than those in blue if weather is clear.and in the very end of WWII,P51 mustang need not any dazzle paint,and they are shining......so the light reflected should also be counted.

Between 800X600 and 1600X1200,visibility is very different,is there diffferent pixel numbers used in the same situation??? I know the "pixel size" is almost same to various displayers.

The "tiny dot" issue is a very BIG PROBLEM indeed,I'm eager to look for the result of OLEG's research.

CAF_FN_IDIOT
11-20-2004, 08:52 AM
If it is an option, then no need to vote, just let us choose.
Good Job, either way.
Just let us choose in difficulty settings.

Tater-SW-
11-20-2004, 08:57 AM
The fact the mp_dotrange thing works seems to mean that all vehicles use the same dots. In this case, all arguments must be tempered by what happens to ship visibility. Every tone down of the dot will likely reduce ship visibility range, which even with the new dots is not far enough. A CV would have to expend its entire strike package in PF, even with new dots, just to do wedge searches of a section of the area of operations. (basically planes need to be just inside twice the dot range of each other to ensure coverage).

Hey, regardless of what they do with the dots, can we get a FMB object that looks like a target circle, but has the radius slider marked in km, with a tick for what the dotrange is? We could use it on the map to ensure planes get within range of each other we'd like to engage...

tater

Sig.Hirsch
11-20-2004, 09:22 AM
One thing is sure :
the former dots of 3.0 were really exagerated and unrealistic , as i could see nothing 2k below me , nor any ground object , nor could i see some planes like the spitfires when they were on my six and not too far : that was Clearly UNREALISTIC, cause we had to use bad video options to survive Full real online campaigns (NVidia 6800 GT , 66.93 ).
i see some whine about the new dots telling they are not realistic , but we can answer them that Aces reports of Clostermann , Rall etc.. mention that they could see contacts from 3-4 km away , and that from a real life cockpit you see much better than on our 17'' screens .

Please stop telling that former dots were more realistic , it's not true at all ; if you don't like the new dots , then ask for a compromise , but the older dots were bad for sure and not more realistic than what we currently have .

Besides , i have to agree with Hunde about the resolutions , i think that people who run max video settings and higher resolutions should be able to see as well as the guys who play on low res .

chn06
11-20-2004, 09:26 AM
Our choice for dots: choice 3.00 ,No 3.01!!

we investigated that pilots who like the new dots, all flight times no more than 1 year

an all pilots who flight times above 1 year, will like the perpatch dots.

Pilots (we investigate 2165 sim pilots in china,include 20 real pilots) who play in VEF, IOW, VOW, BW,...will choice perpatch dots,a majority of newbie choice 3.01 dots (84%)

So, I think the Dots's issue are market matter in fact, care for newbie or Let it realistic for a classical Flight Sim..

BTW, I choice:
"Maybe it is best for everybody to make the black dots an option in the realism settings"

http://www.ithammer.com/fans/face/6939.gif

Sig.Hirsch
11-20-2004, 09:34 AM
that has 90% of being a lie chn06 as if you really flew yourself , you'll notice that u can actually see everything clearly 3 km around you up and below your plane , and that was not the case with the former dots .
Moreover we noticed that most of the few people who complain about new dots , use icons , and low resolutions ....
To conclude , the 1 year limit of flight time is not criteria , we count the flight times in hours http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
bad guess .
give honest opinions pls , not fake surveys

609IAP_Recon
11-20-2004, 09:38 AM
"Pilots (we investigate 2165 sim pilots in china,include 20 real pilots) who play in VEF, IOW, VOW, BW,...will choice perpatch dots,a majority of newbie choice 3.01 dots (84%)"

LOL

let's see, I investigate 40,0000 US sim pilots who play VEF, etc.. and all want the new dots...

IVJG51-Dart
11-20-2004, 09:39 AM
Well, I voted. As much as a drastic change the new 'dots' are, you can see them quite a long way off now, AND keep track of the buggers when fighting, I think they're an improvement. They are quite "bulky" looking compared to what we've gotten used to (looks more like the original IL-2) but I think it's a step in the right direction of simulating real world visibility issues.

Recently a squad mate and I had quite the talk on a flight home about this very topic, all the while looking out the window of our jet at 35k ft and saying "see! you can see that plane over there, or that road down there, and that building." Folks, when you're at 35k feet in the real world you can SEE other planes at quite a distance, quite easily. You can even see trucks and cars moving on roads. You can see houses and swimming pools, small buildings, etc. that are MILES away. Pre 3.01 you CAN'T see anything at all like that. That is simply unrealistic and not as good a simulation of real world visibility issues.

I say we keep em, that's how I voted. Now people who don't like the no icon/PL environment MAY be more inclined to fly the FR settings if they can track targets more "realistically". IMHO.

Tater-SW-
11-20-2004, 09:42 AM
It's hazy today, but I can see a 737 on final at the Albuquerque airport over 12 miles away (19km). It is also about 1200 feet below me with terrain in the background, not sky. I only know it's a 737 because 80% of airliners are 737s here, and it is bigger than a MD-80. I could ID it only if I got a better angle.

What is max dot range with new vs old dots in km?

tater

PS--the airport is 12+ miles away, the plane was farther given the approach.

chn06
11-20-2004, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
that has 90% of being a lie chn06 as if you really flew yourself , you'll notice that u can actually see everything clearly 3 km around you up and below your plane , and that was not the case with the former dots .
Moreover we noticed that most of the few people who complain about new dots , use icons , and low resolutions ....
To conclude , the 1 year limit of flight time is not criteria , we count the flight times in hours http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
bad guess .
give honest opinions pls , not fake surveys <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First,pls trust my honest.
and, I and majority of our Sim pilots use 1024X768 resolutions.

The VEF, IOW, VOW, BW missions all no Icons

and, you can see that:

Oleg_Maddox
VIP

posted Fri November 19 2004 06:01
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Vagueout:
I preferred the prepatch dots, they looked (to me) more realistic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I really agree with you.
And my very goo friend - real pilot say the same me today after test.

http://www.ithammer.com/fans/face/6939.gif

chn06
11-20-2004, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 609IAP_Recon:
"Pilots (we investigate 2165 sim pilots in china,include 20 real pilots) who play in VEF, IOW, VOW, BW,...will choice perpatch dots,a majority of newbie choice 3.01 dots (84%)"

LOL

let's see, I investigate 40,0000 US sim pilots who play VEF, etc.. and all want the new dots... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

English is no my mother tongue..

explain:
1. we investigate 2165 sim pilots (on our Site ,have 12832 register today)

2. more than 300 pilots who are often fly online mission, about VEF, IOW, VOW, BW..

http://www.ithammer.com/fans/face/6939.gif

Tater-SW-
11-20-2004, 09:50 AM
LOOKED more realistic. Critical point. He didn't say they gave you more realistic DATA/VISIBILITY, but that they looked more like planes as dots look.

What matters is not how they LOOK, but what information you get at what range vs real life. IF the old dots looked more like a RL dot, but you only saw them at half the range you'd see a RL dot, then they are not giving you realistic information. The FOV is critical as well, since you only see things at actual size in the fully "zoomed" gunsight view.

tater

609IAP_Recon
11-20-2004, 09:52 AM
I know chn, but everyone I talked to except one person likes the new dots.

I somehow question your 'survey', considering all other polls show the opposite.

=============

"What matters is not how they LOOK, but what information you get at what range vs real life. IF the old dots looked more like a RL dot, but you only saw them at half the range you'd see a RL dot, then they are not giving you realistic information. The FOV is critical as well, since you only see things at actual size in the fully "zoomed" gunsight view."

yep

609IAP_Recon
11-20-2004, 09:54 AM
I just like seeing the smoke and ships/ground easier personally.

for me, it's the 3d models that are hard to see, not dots

Sig.Hirsch
11-20-2004, 09:57 AM
LOL , chn06 so how do you explain we could see nothing in 1200x720 and 1600x... with full video settings with 3.0 dots , while any real pilot and reports of Clostermann and Rall tell you that in RL you see clearly evrything at 3 km around with good wheather ??

look i'm not for "keep the black dots " or "put back the former ones " cause both were wrong in some way depending your resolution and if you have an old hardware or newer one .
I'm asking for a COMPROMISE , and more specifically , slightly smaller dots who change their colours from grey to black depending the distance as it was proposed by someone else first .

dieg777
11-20-2004, 09:58 AM
1st post to Ready room forum -Keep the dots http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif
Well done Oleg

At least Oleg is listning and with the feedback might give those that want more options thier wish in a later patch. I think his record on trying to accomodate peoples wishes is excellent

WWMaxGunz
11-20-2004, 10:07 AM
Finding planes in air is not easy without a lot of practice. Same with finding things
on the ground. A LOT of practice in real life. Without camoflage, not easy.

But once you find them near you, it's amazing how clearly they are there.

Not about seeing them. About finding them. A mind thing, not an eye thing unless the
weather is thick or it is dark.

Atmosphere down low is heavy with water vapor unless very cold or desert. Also dust
and pollen in many places. Judging flying vision from how it is down low is only good
for for flying down low. Get up in the mountains or fly high with a lot of traffic
around sometime, which is not usual. How far away can you see airplanes above from
ground? The higher the angle up, the farther away you can see them because the less
thick air in between.

2 km alt things look sharper at all distances. The ground below is less sharp due to
laden air over it. That is why planes above the laden air should stand out but with
pixels and limited colors do not. Planes down in the laden air should be faded and
harder to spot. Is there any way to do that????

Instead of hard to find we get hard to see except for the ones down long way through
laden air -- we get it for all.

That is not the worst by any means. Old dots are not bad. What has been bad is the
disappearing airplanes not far away while you watch and approach. Have those real
pilots (doesn't say of experience spotting planes) tell of planes turning invisible
while they are watching and approaching less than 1 km away! In clear conditions and
not changing aspect at all!

When the view should be getting clearer, like a switch thrown the plane disappears.
Given a short dotrange to cover different PC hardware, less than 2 km, more than .5 km,
this one fault has a tool to be avoided. But if your PC is such that it does not happen
to you then please demand it not so and keep your advantage.

Once more .... with control via dotrange, what can be unreal used improperly can also
correct the single worst hardware-based fault that has plagued the sim since day one
without impacting long distance spotting whatsoever. It gives us a tool which like any
tool can be used good or bad. People who want easy spotting have icons and no cockpit
anyway, people without the best hardware are stuck with icons or go to extreme low res.
What is the problem with an intermediate tool that is fully controllable?

Real pilots. Real life. Look on the PC and look out a window, then talk about real.

chn06
11-20-2004, 10:08 AM
609IAP_Recon ,you are right..

It's a technology problem..

In fact, 70% Sim Pilots choice 3.01 dots in China..But,I real don't think it's right choice

http://www.ithammer.com/fans/face/6939.gif

chn06
11-20-2004, 10:16 AM
WWMaxGunz's write is relevance..thinking..

http://www.ithammer.com/fans/face/6939.gif

WWMaxGunz
11-20-2004, 10:18 AM
Your little movie there supposed to be at Pearl Harbor?

269GA-Maxmars
11-20-2004, 10:18 AM
1.5 billion of Chinese can't be wrong: give us back the old dots!!!1!!11oneuno! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BTW I'm all for toning down the new dots color as well.

chn06
11-20-2004, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Your little movie there supposed to be at Pearl Harbor? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heihei, it's a segment from film DVD Pearl Harbor http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

WWMaxGunz
11-20-2004, 12:45 PM
How many US planes got up and fought that day?
I believe there were 2 P-40's? Neither got near Pearl Harbor.
It was a wipeout.

WUAF_Badsight
11-20-2004, 12:51 PM
.
THE NEW DOTS HAVE BEEN NEEDED SINCE v1.0

they fade away nice but are so much better closer

dont change them at all from what they are now

when things are this good the only response should be : "COOL!

Hunde_3.JG51
11-20-2004, 01:10 PM
Some of you people are too much.

So screw everyone at higher resolutions? They don't deserve to see as well as those running in lower resolutions? Evryone should have to dumb down their graphics to have a level playing field? That is what everyone who is saying "bring back the old dots" is saying whether they know it or not. Those running in high res have suffered a big disadvantage since FB 1.0 through 3.0, please be considerate of those people as well.

Like I have said before, the new dots are unfair to low res users, the old dots are unfair to high res users. Please try to consider both sides. The real answer is to tie dot visibility to resolution, I don't see any other way. Making it a difficulty option would only help offline players, as the servers I would want to fly on would turn them off thinking it is more realistic, which may be true for low res guys, but certainly not for high res users.

I'm sorry to post so much on this issue but it is one of the best changes for me ever made to the game. But many people just don't seem to get it, that the answer is not so black and white, depending on what res you play at your perspective will be completely different. There is a huge difference, and that is an undeniable fact. This eliminates any solution that leaves things as they are, or were. A new solution needs to be found where resolution is considered.

Airmikey2
11-20-2004, 01:18 PM
Love the new airplane dots!! Hate icons!!

I fly hi-res, btw. and my dots aren't as unrealistic or large as some posts I have seen.. Therein lies the answer- It's a resolution solution we need.

Airmikey

Hunde_3.JG51
11-20-2004, 01:24 PM
CONGRATS Airmikey, you are one of the few that really understands the problem.

crazyivan1970
11-20-2004, 01:26 PM
Can you people just vote and stop confusing others? This is kinda...umm... poll, ya know.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-20-2004, 01:29 PM
Mr.Ivan, people are confused, that is the problem. The poll doesn't address the real issue, please see my second to last post.

crazyivan1970
11-20-2004, 01:33 PM
IMO, this should come down to this... a compromise. I play on 1600x1200 too and i confirm that new dots starting to look funny at anything below 1280x960 so i partially agree with those who doesnt like them. In the same time, i, since i use same res as you, agree that it`s unfair to us as well. So my solution will be a dot, sized in between old ones and new ones and just a tad lighter color... more like dark gray.. That would make everyone happy IMO.

There http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hunde_3.JG51
11-20-2004, 01:36 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, like I said before, I'll take anything over what we had before. I was ready to change my name to 3.JG51_S.Wonder, or 3.JG51_Charles.

WUAF_Badsight
11-20-2004, 01:36 PM
i play at 1150-ish x 700-ish

the dots are better than fine

they are awesome

WUAF_Badsight
11-20-2004, 01:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beckh_3.JG51:
Looks like majority of ppl want to keep new dots, thats pritty sad. I bet you many of those, who vote, play with the icons on or partial icons, why whould you bother about the dots, you got full blown tow banners floating around. Man its gonna hurt full switch flyers, but what can you do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
its going to help full switch

with these dots there is a reason for having icons off !

110% + MW50 better now

OldMan____
11-20-2004, 02:53 PM
Oleg, can´t you make these dots only appear if resolution if greater than 1024x768 ? I think they are great since I can use 1280x960 now.

Excelent for the ones that do B&Z.

You could also disable them if Icons are ON.

CHDT
11-20-2004, 03:08 PM
And as a "collateral" effect of these new dots, the dogfights are much more interesting, as, because enemy aircrafts can be better spotted, pilots have to climb higher and to prepare carefully attack approaches: in resume, no more stupid furballs.

I like it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Woof603
11-20-2004, 03:14 PM
Keep the new dots just as they are. 35 years RL flying says they're realistic. 1024x768. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WWMaxGunz
11-20-2004, 03:39 PM
Ivan, didn't Oleg post that the size can't be changed? Or at least, probably within reason?

Bearcat99
11-20-2004, 04:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Some of you people are too much.

So screw everyone at higher resolutions? They don't deserve to see as well as those running in lower resolutions? Evryone should have to dumb down their graphics to have a level playing field? That is what everyone who is saying "bring back the old dots" is saying whether they know it or not. Those running in high res have suffered a big disadvantage since FB 1.0 through 3.0, please be considerate of those people as well.

Like I have said before, the new dots are unfair to low res users, the old dots are unfair to high res users. Please try to consider both sides. The real answer is to tie dot visibility to resolution, I don't see any other way. Making it a difficulty option would only help offline players, as the servers I would want to fly on would turn them off thinking it is more realistic, which may be true for low res guys, but certainly not for high res users.

I'm sorry to post so much on this issue but it is one of the best changes for me ever made to the game. But many people just don't seem to get it, that the answer is not so black and white, depending on what res you play at your perspective will be completely different. There is a huge difference, and that is an undeniable fact. This eliminates any solution that leaves things as they are, or were. A new solution needs to be found where resolution is considered. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know this is actually a very good solution... I never considered the different res thing because I fly at 1024... but this solution is very sensible.

effte
11-20-2004, 04:45 PM
None of the above.

Make the dot size a fraction of the screen size. E g, assume that everyone can see single pixels in 1024x768. Progressively increase the dot size with decreasing range to represent a measure of size of the aircraft, possibly corrected for aspect.

Make sure that the dots remain over the horrible mid-range transition, where aircraft go invisible on us.

PB0_Roll
11-20-2004, 04:50 PM
no dots for me please, thanks.

OldMan____
11-20-2004, 04:52 PM
two dots for me please.. with sugar

WWMaxGunz
11-20-2004, 05:02 PM
With my eyesight, 1 pixel at 1024x768 is a dust mote. If it's grey then I can't tell the
difference, if it's black I probably can.

The midrange transition where planes go invisible, I can already see a shape by then which
is why it's so bleedin frustrating! No sweeps from above, have to go below and get the
silhouette to be sure of maintaining vis on target, which isn't always an option.

Server controls dotrange. That's all that's needed, right?

One thing other .... LARGE ground targets should have something at multiple dotrange or
better even, fixed ranges per object like ships!

Perhaps the higher a plane is, the darker the dot? Planes way down close to ground then
not so dark at all, blend better??

Stachl
11-20-2004, 05:13 PM
I voted for the new dots. ANYTHING to get rid of icons! Besides, I will no longer be at a visual disadvantage against Spitfires, Yaks, Migs, etc. etc. when flying a 109. Unfortunately, I'm afraid these new dots are a necessary evil at the moment.

RAAF_Edin
11-20-2004, 05:39 PM
What is with all these comments "I can't see any aircraft, my eyesight is not too good" and this boloney with high resolutions. I play at 1280x1024 and I hate these stupid dots! Who's fault is it if someone has bad eyesight? Do all others need to be "punished" because of this? No one would be alowed to be apilot with bad eyes in the first place, so if talking about realism, then hello... think about this twice, and for crying out loud... this is why there are icons and servers where non-full-real is used.

I never had any problems playing without icons, speedbar, externals etc. The only thing that was an issue is aircraft that are very near (1km and under) that blend into background completely and no zoom can help me see them when I know exactly where the aircraft should be. Yes, I hated this and I think it's not appropriate...

But now, not only is everyone visible for miles and miles away but there is no way of judging the distance to them at all, unless they get really close... this is a real arcade feature... life simulation down the toilet.

Stiglr
11-20-2004, 05:53 PM
Well, Edin, when you figure some of us who play at 1024 x 768 have better than 20/20 vision and WE lose the dots all the time...

it's time to withdraw your argument.

It's not a player vision issue. It's a simulation and simulation PRESENTATION (on your monitor) issue.

RAAF_Edin
11-20-2004, 06:02 PM
I don't have a problem with loosing a contact with an aircraft kilometers away... especially when they are camouflaged and against the ground, this is a very realistic way. The only thing that is not good blending in into darker background at very close distance.

I play online only and I hear people saying they can't see something when I can... at the same time it hapens they see something and I can't. This is very likely because of different perspective of each person in regards to objects they are looking at. This is not so much of an issue at all when the object viewed is far away.

But when people say they don't need icons with these new dots... I think that says it all... the new dots are the same as **** icons. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Tater-SW-
11-20-2004, 06:07 PM
1415 hours, November 12, 1942, Guadalcanal.

Joe Foss lead 8 F4F-4s (with 8 P-39s in tow) at 29,000 feet (8.84km). 16 G4M bombers emerge East of Florida Island at 500ft (153m), preparing a high-speed torpedo attack on US shipping in the sound. There were 30 Zeros on their right wing as close escort.

Foss yells "Let's go, gang!" and leads the 16 planes in a dive to the incoming bombers.

What dots do we need for THAT to happen in PF. If that can't happen, the dots are broken and need to be bumped up. I did a stand-alone install, so I guess I can fire up AEP and see if I can see some 2 engine bombers at 150m alt from 8,840m alt.

First Team doesn't say where Foss was exactly, but I doubt it was directly overhead as they likely expected the typical attacks from the NW at alt, not the East on the deck (they were orbiting at 29k for just that reason).

tater

Tater-SW-
11-20-2004, 06:35 PM
OK, I tried it in AEP. You can actually see the planes over the water from 29k feet! You have to be pretty close, however:

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/dotmap.jpg
Arrow where I was when I first saw the dots appear. Once I saw them, it looks like one of those map grids was about the limit of visibility.


http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/aep_dots.jpg
This is what they looked like. Honestly, if I didn't know exactly where to look, there is a **** good chance I might have missed them with clouds around. I will try a patched PF attempt later.

tater

Glen44
11-20-2004, 10:05 PM
How many il2 gamers like "3.01 black dot" or not IS NOT IMPORTANT.

If you are just a gamer,ok,turn on ICONS,that's only a game,a funny thing killing time.Since u don't mind The ICONS which is MUCH MUCH bigger than DOTS,why do u complain those tiny blackdot's ugly???IMO,the ICONS is the ugliest thing in il2.

But if you are a enthusiastic simmer,u OUGHT TO listen to the REAL PILOTs.Those without real flying experience have NO qualification to express their opinion at all! Forgive my harsh words.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In 3.0 and before,it has PROBABLY bad visibility,and in 3.01 PROBABLY too exaggerated.
Since OLEG can get to the LEFT AND RIGHT,he can also get the very MIDDLE,I believe.

All we need is a COMPROMISE which involves which kind of RESOLUTION ,a/c's and environment's COLOUR,PIXEL NUMBERS,WEATHER, amount of REFLECTED LIGHT and so on.It's really a "great project" which can not be expressed within a few sentences.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-20-2004, 11:25 PM
Just a friendly reminder to those saying "THE DOTS ARE CORRECT!", and for those saying "THE OLD DOTS ARE CORRECT!."

The fact is that someone running at 1600x1200 has "new dots" that look like the "old dots" for those running lower resolutions. The "new dots" to those running lower res look too big, and the "old dots" for those running high res were almost invisible.

So even if you say one is correct, make sure you specify at what resolution because it makes a big difference in what you are claiming.

I say don't leave them as they are, and don't put them back the way they were. Find a resolution dependent solution.

Btw RAAF_Edin, I completely disagree. My eyesight is fine. Furthermore, there IS a big difference in FB versions 1.0 to 3.0 in plane visibility between 1600x1200 and lower resolutions. Claiming otherwise is simply wrong. I could spot planes twice as easily, if not more, when I turned down my resolution and many many others will tell you the same. Still, I do understand your frustration about a negative change, but at the same time people running high resolutions have been at a big disadvantage for a long time (since FB 1.0). I just hope a satisfactory answer can be found that doesn't create disadvantages depending on the resolution run (as has been the case).

uhoh7
11-20-2004, 11:42 PM
I agree 100%. At 1600x1200 I can see for the first time in many versions. I now even like FR. The dots are tiny and hard to see if you are not looking closely.


I too HATE ICONS and that STUPID TRIANGLE. But I have been unable to see at all till now

LEXX_Luthor
11-21-2004, 12:49 AM
Glen:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Since u don't mind The ICONS which is MUCH MUCH bigger than DOTS, why do u complain those tiny blackdot's ugly??? IMO,the ICONS is the ugliest thing in il2. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
PERFECT. Excellent way to expose the contradictions we see here. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I use 1024x768 and the new dots are realistic once you set the dotrange settings to match your personal experience in aircraft spotting.

Nguta
11-21-2004, 01:08 AM
New dots are great! Personally I have 100% vision and in real life I can distinguish wings and tail, let's say, of Boeing 737 ~10 km (~30000 feet) away. Before patch, planes in the game on my system was visible from the distance no more than 400m (1200 feet) on the sky background and no more 150 m (450 feet) on the landscape backgroung. Hey, dots haters, what you call "realistic" is actually nearsightedness. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Old style dots were visually "nicer" to certain people but visibility had the same relation to reality like Santa in the cockpit.
I agree this as "realism" option only if it will be named "Emulate pilot nearsightedness". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Well, it's not so bad. It's statistically known that 50% of Earth population have problems with vision... yeah, look at the voting results... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Snoop_Baron
11-21-2004, 01:16 AM
Check out this old page I put together on the no icon vs limited icons debate:

http://www.snoopbaron.com/aircombat/RealismDebate.html

The new dots are an overall improvement, but they do need some tweaking.

The dot of an airplane should be as easy to see in the wide vew as the the 3D model is in the gunsight view. But with the old dots this was not even close to being the case. This is just one example of how they were broken.

Close range dot visibility should under no conditions go back to the mess we had before.

The new dots are not perfect, but don't fool yourself into thinking the old ones were. They clearly were not. In many respects the new dots are an iprovement, lets not loose sight of that. Instead lets move forward to a better solution instead of backwards to the previously flawed solution.

Lets shoot for the most realistic dots for all resolutions that can be reasonably implemented. Make this the default, the server should not make dots harder to see unless they want to have a new difficulty setting that lowers realism.

Regards,
Snoop

Glen44
11-21-2004, 01:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nguta:
New dots are great! Personally I have 100% vision and in real life I can distinguish wings and tail, let's say, of Boeing 737 ~10 km (~30000 feet) away. Before patch, planes in the game on my system was visible from the distance no more than 400m (1200 feet) on the sky background and no more 150 m (450 feet) on the landscape backgroung. Hey, dots haters, what you call "realistic" is actually nearsightedness. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Old style dots were visually "nicer" to certain people but visibility had the same relation to reality like Santa in the cockpit.
I agree this as "realism" option only if it will be named "Emulate pilot nearsightedness". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Well, it's not so bad. It's statistically known that 50% of Earth population have problems with vision... yeah, look at the voting results... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You are completely right.For those "gamer", ICONS is the best solution,they are just looking for fun.

YOU GAMER,Don't Emulate us ! We are the "Simmer",and we want "realism" ,want to see things just like the real pilots. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Glen44
11-21-2004, 01:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snoop_Baron:
Check out this old page I put together on the no icon vs limited icons debate:

http://www.snoopbaron.com/aircombat/RealismDebate.html

The new dots are an overall improvement, but they do need some tweaking.

The dot of an airplane should be as easy to see in the wide vew as the the 3D model is in the gunsight view. But with the old dots this was not even close to being the case. This is just one example of how they were broken.

Close range dot visibility should under no conditions go back to the mess we had before.

The new dots are not perfect, but don't fool yourself into thinking the old ones were. They clearly were not. In many respects the new dots are an iprovement, lets not loose sight of that. Instead lets move forward to a better solution instead of backwards to the previously flawed solution.

Lets shoot for the most realistic dots for all resolutions that can be reasonably implemented. Make this the default, the server should not make dots harder to see unless they want to have a new difficulty setting that lowers realism.

Regards,
Snoop <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES!

BTW,GUNSIGHT VIEW AND WIDE VIEW are both sh****t! Who dare say that his eyes are "telescope" which can enlarge sth. to 2X(6X,10X) times bigger? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
11-21-2004, 01:30 AM
Nguta:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Hey, dots haters, what you call "realistic" is... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
TEXT ICONS http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Actually, the problem may be "comfort" with Red/Blue text icon labels and a natural desire to avoid learning how to search for aircraft instead of reading about them all over the sky. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif With the New Dots, searching for planes is now a realistic possibility, and maybe for some, a frightening possibility indeed.

The key to understandig here is that offwhine single players control their own dotrange settings, and control their own dynamic dot behavior, while onwhine dogfighters depend on server to set dynamic dot behavior. With the new ability to search for aircraft, the onwhine Icon servers may not be needed, and this causes some Panic among some Aces, Panic enough for them to make desperate jokes like "balloon dots" or "cartoon dots."

A look at the history of FB webboard shows how intense Debate becomes about Icons in the onwhine dogfight servers. PANIC over less need for Icon servers may be a natural reaction to realistic aircraft dots. Nothing wrong with that--it was the old invisible dots that naturally created this desire for text icons.

CHDT
11-21-2004, 01:53 AM
"and this causes some Panic among some Aces"

Spot on!

I remember some post written by "aces" in which they were telling they fly purposely on 1024 by 768 to see big black dots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And now these big black dots (dots that I don't see on my 1600 by 1200 screen) have suddently become annoying for them. Strange, isn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
11-21-2004, 01:59 AM
CHDT:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I remember some post written by "aces" in which they were telling they fly purposely on 1024 by 768 to see big black dots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And now these big black dots have suddenly become annoying for them. Strange, isn't it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif This may be a different set of internet Aces.

I think we are seeing Aces who have *always* flown Icons on the Icon servers. We can't blame them, given the old invisible micro~dots. But, can they let go? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

OldMan____
11-21-2004, 03:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glen44:

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You are completely right.For those "gamer", ICONS is the best solution,they are just looking for fun.

YOU GAMER,Don't Emulate us ! We are the "Simmer",and we want "realism" ,want to see things just like the real pilots. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so put your PF down and wait 10 more years since with current technology that is NOT POSSIBLE!

Glen44
11-21-2004, 03:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glen44:

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You are completely right.For those "gamer", ICONS is the best solution,they are just looking for fun.

YOU GAMER,Don't Emulate us ! We are the "Simmer",and we want "realism" ,want to see things just like the real pilots. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so put your PF down and wait 10 more years since with current technology that is NOT POSSIBLE! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,maybe impossible......and maybe possible :we can not change the size of "dot",but we can change the "colour" "light""transparence" after all,let's wait for OLEG's reseach.

Habaya
11-21-2004, 04:31 AM
After reading though the many pages of this thread it has become obvious that the poll should have somehow asked not only about the dots but also at what resolution you use. This appears to have a huge effect on the rendering of the dots.

I play FB/PF about 70% offline at 1028 res and as stated in my previous post, these new dots look to be in my humble opinion, totally unrealistic and ridiculous.

I have always tried to strive for realism, to this end I very rarely enable icons and learned early on to spot other aircraft as soon as possible (yes it is possible). I believe that the v3.0 were more than acceptable and represented €˜reality€ very well given the limitations of to computer monitor. For anyone to suggest that they couldn€t see and track other aircraft with the original dots may I suggest that they try a little harder. Situational awareness is a skill and a hard one to master at that, but for the sake of realism I suggest that these people stop posting and reposting drivel and put some hours in the pit.

To the gentlemen who set their resolutions at 1600 etc etc, I can see that you have been at a disadvantage and you would obviously gladly accept the new dots. My hat goes off to you guys not at least for the very deep pockets but more to the point, I envy the understanding wife€s, girl/boyfriends and or partners in your lives€¦ but may I ask why you do this? What graphical advantage are you getting? I choose 1024*768 resolution with high Hz because fluid rendering (at perfect) of the sim is important.

In this poll I voted for the middle way, to allow people to make their own choice because one thing I have learnt over the years, is that there are as many opinions in this world as there are people and perhaps, just perhaps I may of got things totally wrong and the others might ever so slightly be right! Seriously though, I sure hope that Oleg will go with realism and do away with these €˜I€m over here you SA challenged pilot€ dots, or at the very least allow to make the dots user selectable for the guys with big monitors.

Anyways I console myself in the results so far in the poll. Combining €˜keep the old€ and €˜make them optional€ leads the €˜keep the new€ by a long, long way.

klemlao
11-21-2004, 06:33 AM
At 11 pages of thread and with other things to do, please don't flame me if this has been said already - I stopped reading around page 4.

I think there is a bigger issue here.

First, the dots. They are too stark. Please tone down the colour. Well, give them some colour, not black. And yes, the colour could be increased at closer ranges, leading on to:-

Look at the screen shots posted at the beginning of the thread. One has dots at 3,000 m. Well, I live 3,000 meters from the centre of our local municipal airport where we have a BoB airshow every year. From my back garden I can watch the P51s, Hurricanes, Spits, P40s etc BnZ the airfield. At this range to the naked eye THEY HAVE SHAPE and are clearly recognisable for what they are in both plan and profile. They are not dots!

Having very distant a/c represented by dots is fine but one of the problems with a/c recognition in FB/PF is that they are drawn far too small at 3/4/5000 metres. Rectifying this alone would clear away a lot of the 'I can't see them until its too late' and 'icon on/icon off' lobbies.

So OLEG would you please give this some thought. I think the scale (a/c size) is wrong at medium distances. If it's a problem of resolution then I think the dots are too small at 3000m and should be bumped up a pixel or two (but not blackhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

On resolution. Given the level of card needed to play FB/PF, are there really any users out there that HAVE to use less than 1024x768. I doubt it &lt;ducks&gt;. Maybe its time to ditch the lower 640 and 800 resolutions if that affects what you are trying to provide. Or maybe an optional patch - 'Dots for resolutions below xxxx'.

Oh, yes, please can you do something about the dots in Zoom mode - they disappear or at least don't increase in size.

I'll put my tin hat on now.

regards,

klem
P2.4, 9600XT, 512Mb Ram, 1024x768 res.

Tater-SW-
11-21-2004, 07:38 AM
True, many times I noted that the dots are dots in wide and normal FOV, but zoomed into narrow (which is supposed to be 1:1 view, right?) they have wings. At any range like that, there's noting to complain about dot-wise since it should be a resolved object anyway, not a dot.

tater

Slechtvalk
11-21-2004, 08:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JaVA_Zeehond:
Now that I read my post again and look at all the replies. I like the next idea that a few people gave=&gt; Tune the black dots down. Make them more Grey. However I have no idea if it would look better or not. Let's find out! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p.s. I fly full real so no icons for me or anything like that. (except speedbar on)

Keep the opinions coming pilots!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grey dots were in Original IL-2. It was removed by user's requests. Interwsesting isn't it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I think those dots (from the old il-2) where the best dots. But I think I liked a allot of things better from old il-2, more realistic shooting, better engine sounds, harder flight models. Often nothing beats the first http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And Oleg, don't listen to user request. Listen to what you think is best! That is always the best, be sure.

robindeeyk
11-21-2004, 08:45 AM
make it optional to turn it of ore on in dificult settings .
i am sorry to say it but theese dots are spoiling my fun in this flightsim .

there is no suprise element anymore .

Sharpe26
11-21-2004, 10:08 AM
is there a difference in dots by using the regular and new fb exe that came with this patch?

the reason I'm asking is as followed: while in a dogfight this afternoon I spotted a plane above me, at first it was a greyish shape that turned into the black uglyness we call dots and finally it resolved into a plane.

gwpc
11-21-2004, 10:58 AM
In my opinion the new dots look like...........well dots. More precisely big black hairy ugly dots. What they do not look like is aircraft seen at a distance. The new dots ruin the sense of immersion and realism, please please at least make them optional, if not revert to the pre-patch dots.
Otherwise thanks for the patch.

WWMaxGunz
11-21-2004, 11:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAAF_Edin:
What is with all these comments "I can't see any aircraft, my eyesight is not too good" and this boloney with high resolutions. I play at 1280x1024 and I hate these stupid dots! Who's fault is it if someone has bad eyesight? Do all others need to be "punished" because of this? No one would be alowed to be apilot with bad eyes in the first place, so if talking about realism, then hello... think about this twice, and for crying out loud... this is why there are icons and servers where non-full-real is used.

I never had any problems playing without icons, speedbar, externals etc. The only thing that was an issue is aircraft that are very near (1km and under) that blend into background completely and no zoom can help me see them when I know exactly where the aircraft should be. Yes, I hated this and I think it's not appropriate...

But now, not only is everyone visible for miles and miles away but there is no way of judging the distance to them at all, unless they get really close... this is a real arcade feature... life simulation down the toilet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It ALMOST makes you wish there was SOME WAY to LIMIT the RANGE the dots APPEAR at,
doesn't it?

If there was only **some** **way** .*.*.*.*.*. that just anybody could deal with
instead of p!$$ and moan about how their game has been ruined.

Geeeeeeee. Ya don't think fer a minit it might just be possible? Like actually check
a bit before raining **** all over what makes the sim work for so many people?

Naaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. If it don't come dat way ouddada box, den why bodder?

Sheesh. Oh yeah... my eyesight is my problem and here, you lay don the law for me in
simulation as well. Fine. You're too dumb to figure out how to range limits the dots,
I guess because of your mental shortcomings I should be penalized there as well. Make
it work to suit YOU not just by default but with no other choice for me because of my
eyesight. Thanks. I pity the people the people that have to depend on you.

robindeeyk
11-21-2004, 11:49 AM
WWMaxGunz .......i can not more than agree with you .
iff they not remove theese ugly dots i stop playing this great flightsim .

WWMaxGunz
11-21-2004, 12:05 PM
Robin.....

find out how to use mp_dotrange to set the range limit of the dots
then breath easier.

we don't have to take everything as it comes, most all these things are settable
and the dot range is just one. WHY do people not check, ask, read or find out
before saying "do this"?

Old way - no choice.
Now - choice.

Choice is entirely adjustable. So adjust the range and no problem. You are not
stuck with and others are not stuck without. Room for all if people take time
to find out, think, and try.

Instead, one look and like or don't, that's it now time to fight.

TX-WarHawk
11-21-2004, 12:12 PM
The new dots are amazing. And they can be adjusted already. Couldn't be better.

HeinzBar
11-21-2004, 12:14 PM
S!,
Without reading every page, I'm voting for the removal of the new dots. In addition to be being just plain ugly, they disallow for prop range determination. With the old dots, the dot was faint at a great distance, growing larger with each closing KM, and then the plane appeared. NOw, you can spot that #$%^ dot without even looking. The current dots are so noticeable that stalking is nearly non existant now. The surprise bounce is becoming more difficult w/ these uberdots. Are they realistic? No. They are no more realistic than the 3.0 dots. Just my opinion, but I think the 3.0 dots were much more challenging and a whole lot better to look at.

HB

I should say that I'm open to new ideas like server side dot size. The idea of being customize is great so long as online it is server side controlled and not client side. In this respect, the server will dictate what is fair and what is not. What folks do offline is their own business http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

S.taibanzai
11-21-2004, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeinzBar:
S!,
Without reading every page, I'm voting for the removal of the new dots. In addition to be being just plain ugly, they disallow for prop range determination. With the old dots, the dot was faint at a great distance, growing larger with each closing KM, and then the plane appeared. NOw, you can spot that #$%^ dot without even looking. The current dots are so noticeable that stalking is nearly non existant now. The surprise bounce is becoming more difficult w/ these uberdots. Are they realistic? No. They are no more realistic than the 3.0 dots. Just my opinion, but I think the 3.0 dots were much more challenging and a whole lot better to look at.

HB

I should say that I'm open to new ideas like server side dot size. The idea of being customize is great so long as online it is server side controlled and not client side. In this respect, the server will dictate what is fair and what is not. What folks do offline is their own business http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


RGR that Heinzbar http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

gif this guy a beer 100% agree with you

ucanfly
11-21-2004, 01:31 PM
THE DOTS ARE ALREADY ADJUSTABLE PEOPLE!!!!!!! I know some of you have ADD but RTFM !!!!!!! As MAxgiuns has said several times and Lexx Luthor - the new dots are adjustable!!!!!!!!! Read the ****ing manual!! These new dots are GREAT and they are adjustable!!! How can you want to get rid of this??? What is wrong with YOU PEOPLE??? I hope Oleg listens to reason and not to uninformed, attention deficit whining. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

carguy_
11-21-2004, 02:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robindeeyk:
WWMaxGunz .......i can not more than agree with you .
iff they not remove theese ugly dots i stop playing this great flightsim . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I dare ya. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

HFC_Dolphin
11-21-2004, 03:28 PM
Well, it's kinda complicated because both opinions have their pros and cons.
But, if we see it from the future development view, now actually people can use their high res/perfect settings that they could not use so long. And we all know that IL2 has always been a pioneer in promoting technology http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
One thing that I liked was the ground objects visibility. These new dots were needed for ground objects desperately.
Regarding planes? Well, now you can see them from faaaaaar away, but you can't ID them anymore! They have all turned to big fat dots that can only be ID from close distance. Is this realistic? Dunno, maybe real pilots can tell us this.

So, though I can bear with or without these new dots, I would vote YES for new ground objects dots and NO for new airplanes dots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (maybe if only invicible I16's could have these new dots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Not easy to choose...

S!

italianofalco
11-21-2004, 03:37 PM
dots are adyustable and NEW DOTS ARE GOOD , PLEASE MR. OLEG LEAVE DOTS AS THEY ARE NOW- IFalco

rookie66
11-21-2004, 03:44 PM
Dots? I see many worms crawl at the surface! Is this an approvement of the game? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
Who like that? I think I am slowly loosing my mind.

Nguta
11-21-2004, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robindeeyk:
WWMaxGunz .......i can not more than agree with you .
iff they not remove theese ugly dots i stop playing this great flightsim . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes! You are absolutly right! You must stop playing this game right now! It won't be a big miss. It's our turn to have fun. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

This whining reminds me a kid who is standing in the store and asking for a candy instead of a given chocolate bar shouting that he drops and stomps it if parents don't fulfill his whim immediately. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rookie66
11-21-2004, 04:01 PM
Oleg should create a new name for the game. My proposal: "Dune", because of the big grey worms! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

PopeyeTheSailor
11-21-2004, 04:44 PM
The black dots are really ugly and unrealistic. I believe we are playing a simulation and want it to be realistic. It is not right to change something in a realistic simulation just to make the game easier or to accomodate it to our personal needs. I think the whole simulation is somehow "spoiled" by this black dots, they just look silly. It looks like as if we are going back to or play at a 800x600 resolution era...

Tater-SW-
11-21-2004, 04:54 PM
The point of a simulation is to simulate, the specific LOOK is eye candy. The only question that matters is which dots result in target tallys that mimic real life. Nothing else matters.

If in RL planes separated by X altitude, and Y distance sotted the other guys 20% of the time, that is what the game should end up wioth. If the old dots would have 5% of the planes spotted, and the new dots 40% spotted, then BOTH dots are wrong, and you pick a middle ground. The dots not looking as nice are a totally different story, with nothing at all to do with simulation. It might actually take uglier dots to simulate reality better---or it might not. I'm not sure, and I doubt anyone else really should be without loads of testing vs reality. My gut says something in between old and new is the best way. I'd add that I think anyone with icons on at all is disqualified from having a useful opinion, since that is grossly worse (and more of a crutch) than any dots by orders of magnitude. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (if you argue that icons give RL data we should have, like a feel for closing rates, etc, then you can't argue against dots for the same reasons you are for icons...)

tater

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2004, 05:32 PM
yes, a plane should be and is identifiable from a fair distance off.....in RL

In simulation, we are hamstrung by technology. The monitor and it's pixels, can in no way possibly mimic real life, hence the concern with the dots at the moment.
Icons, at in least the plane type, makes up for this shortfall.

How unfair to state that those who run with icons should have no say, simply...how unfair!
What sort of childish mindset would even consider making that statement.

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2004, 05:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nguta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robindeeyk:
WWMaxGunz .......i can not more than agree with you .
iff they not remove theese ugly dots i stop playing this great flightsim . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes! You are absolutly right! You must stop playing this game right now! It won't be a big miss. It's our turn to have fun. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

This whining reminds me a kid who is standing in the store and asking for a candy instead of a given chocolate bar shouting that he drops and stomps it if parents don't fulfill his whim immediately. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think you've said it yourself mate.

GT182
11-21-2004, 06:21 PM
It's only fair to make the "dots" an option in the realism settings. Then the whiners can turn them off, and the rest can use them if and when they want.

"You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all the time. And then of course, there are those that you can't please at all."

It's only fair it

Nimits
11-21-2004, 06:31 PM
Tone the dots down a little if possible, but don't get rid of them. It finally makes playing without icons a viable option (which it arguable was not in 3.00). It would be wrong to condem the many no icon players by removing the dots.

On a side not, I do find it slight amusing that many of the people complaining about the dots being unrealistic are playing with icons on. Last time I cheched, RL aircraft do not come with colored range displays floating overhead . . .

WWMaxGunz
11-21-2004, 07:09 PM
You can control the maximum range at which the dots are seen.
Past that range, the old pixels are what you get. Controllable,
and a server option.

If yet you still cry for the removal... well figure it out....

LEXX_Luthor
11-21-2004, 07:15 PM
Nimits:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On a side note, I do find it slight amusing that many of the people complaining about the dots being unrealistic are playing with icons on <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some have said they flew with the old single pixel dots only--no icons. If so they are using very low res, or are panicking that the new realistic dots may make the old icon servers obsolete. I have flown much offline, but always the single soft grey dot always gets lost in the landscape. I use 1024x768 and 1152x864.

When I first got FB the single pixel dots shocked me. I had always flown Su~27 1.0 where the dots were a 5 pixel cross for distant aircraft, and a single dot for extreme far away aircraft. Original Su~27 1.0 was 1994 flight sim, and back then they had a simple system for scaling dot size with range. Oleg's new dot system scales the dots with range with far more accuracy and realism than 1994.

Holycannoli
11-21-2004, 08:02 PM
I think of icons that are visible only from a certain distance (mind you NOT unlimited distance like 4k away) as trying to mimic RL. Like has been said, we are limited by our monitors, by our lack of triagulated vision, lack of peripheral vision and the size of what we're seeing (a plane 1k away on our monitors is not seen the same way that plane would look 1k away IRL). Things like icons can help with that severe handicap with minimum distances

I think of the speedbar the same way. Think of when you're driving. You can, in one instant, glance down at the dashboard and know your speed, fuel, temp, etc. while still seeing in front of you. All in an instant. You can't do this when flying this simulation. Your view is limited (unless you have a huge monitor and can see everything clearly with a large FOV which I can't). So the speedbar 'simulates' your ability to always know your speed, altitude and heading (basically your 3 important gauges) just like it would be in RL. Let's face it, pilots know their gauges while flying the same way drivers know. You don't actually have to tilt your head down and lose total focus on the road to know your speed right? One split second glance is all you need.

As for the dots, I like them for the same reason. They may not be the prettiest things on the screen, but they simulate what your RL vision would notice and they make up for the obvious shortcomings of PC monitors which just can't simulate your RL vision in a few small inches. Plus, at 1024x768 like I use, they aren't so bad.

Keep the dots.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Look at the screen shots posted at the beginning of the thread. One has dots at 3,000 m. Well, I live 3,000 meters from the centre of our local municipal airport where we have a BoB airshow every year. From my back garden I can watch the P51s, Hurricanes, Spits, P40s etc BnZ the airfield. At this range to the naked eye THEY HAVE SHAPE and are clearly recognisable for what they are in both plan and profile. They are not dots!

Having very distant a/c represented by dots is fine but one of the problems with a/c recognition in FB/PF is that they are drawn far too small at 3/4/5000 metres. Rectifying this alone would clear away a lot of the 'I can't see them until its too late' and 'icon on/icon off' lobbies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's proof right there that icons and dots are necessary to simulate a RL sitatuion as accurately as possible. The icons themselves floating in the air aren't realistic, but the information they give is. And that's what's important. Not so much the look. And I'm not sure that the dots can be drawn any larger at long distances. Everything is scaled to your monitor. That gauge on your panel that in RL may be 3 or 4 inches in diameter is under an inch on your monitor (heck just about every instrument gauge is too small for me to read on my monitor). That's part of the limitation of trying to simulate real life on a home PC monitor.

VK_Dim
11-22-2004, 01:54 AM
DOTS should be scalable, couple of different sizes as you approach or go away. smaller to bigger and vice versa.
There is also one annoying thing about the dots now too. for example U spot the DOT from, let's say 2km... it's big, then you use gunsight full zoomed and the dot is smaller then it it is with wide view...it should be bigger when zoomed in.
I think it is possible to make it like it should be.

GRPlaton
11-22-2004, 04:19 AM
those DOTS ARE KILLING THE GAME

T_Rom
11-22-2004, 04:44 AM
New dots are indeed killing the game. I understand that newbies want big dots. But for veterans who have trained their eye for aerial combat and situational awareness, this is HORRIBLE! My resolution is 1024 x 768, which is certainly THE MOST USED RESOLUTION.

S!

nares
11-22-2004, 06:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
You can control the maximum range at which the dots are seen.
Past that range, the old pixels are what you get. Controllable,
and a server option.

If yet you still cry for the removal... well figure it out.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Max,you didnt test it enought,(or maybe me)
The mp_dotrange DOT refers to distance where the dots start to fade to be visible ,but farer, no dots are represented, old or new
Only what the last LOD its possible to be viewed normally with antialliased, so where you used to see old dot, you dont see nothing.
It could be a good solution if from new dot we could fade to old dots(as you think its working now) but until the plane size its more fited to the plane size (i hate see the dot with the two wing, from the plane under it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif)
i will post with my own ideas when posible, im now in the work distracted with il2 again :P, but by now,
---change the look of dots (more long fade using transparency=more small in subpixel representation on CG),-----made the fadeout more long,made them sensible to res. up to 1250x1024,
---icons color tuned to the original plane color or tank, ---diferent icon(2x2) depending of the angle of view to the plane so more or les bright its viewed(up down plane side front 3/4 etc)---
or come back to the old dots,but plz , not the new ones.
k6 1,8 1gbram 1156x871 ati user 9600 LE(dont buy it, buy the pro or newest)
sorry for my pseudo english and disorder ideas.


Look!! a dogfight!!
. . FW A5(under us!!)


. . . . p51 12 high!!
. . . . b17 two cubes are atacking us!!

VO101_Mahgar
11-22-2004, 06:24 AM
I and my squad (VO101) dont like new dots. But some of us (like MMaister) didnt like prepatch dots neither (he prefers new dots, even thoguh he thinks both choices are"nt ideal). The problem before was midrange display of plane (practically disapeared in higher res) and appeared only in closer range. This wasnt the case in 1024 for example, which res is used by most of us (and probably most used by IL2 comunity).

For me the biggest problem is the indifference between farer and closer dots in 3.01 and this affects SA a lot... Also to note that there are distances where the dot's size dont change according to closing or moving away of the plane.

So this is a complicate problem and cant be solved easyly. Probably BoB will have much more complicated display system, but for the moment the IL2-line can be only based on compromises.

I hope though there will be possible to find an "all happy" solution in this engine too.

S!
VO101 Mahgar

PS. In the other hand the new "weight" and much more realistic, stone-like gliding of the planes is a big improvement in our eyes!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
11-22-2004, 06:32 AM
T_Rom::: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>New dots are indeed killing the game. I understand that newbies want big dots. But for veterans who have trained their eye for aerial combat and situational awareness, this is HORRIBLE! My resolution is 1024 x 768, which is certainly THE MOST USED RESOLUTION.

S!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are the internet Aces Panicking over text "Icon S!" Servers becoming obsolete?

WWMaxGunz
11-22-2004, 06:32 AM
I dunno, looks like the old ones to me but then I can't see the single pixel greys
most of the time anyway. Haveta change the Icon settings to far and then see what
I get with Icons on. I can be pretty certain that way just where and how far the
dots/whatever should be.

Couldn't 1C make the last LOD as the old (thought that's what we got, but I dunno
how far out I'm seein what I am apparently!) and leave it? Maybe they did, we find
out soon.

LEXX_Luthor
11-22-2004, 06:42 AM
You mean keep the last LOD the same size, without it getting smaller with distance? Good point, because some planes vanish faster than others. Bf~109 turns to dot faster than I~16, and Ki~61 turns to dot faster than all other planes (about 1.2km).

It's weird, the old single pixel soft grey dot ~always~ vanish against landscape when it should not always. Despite all the hand waving here, nobody here actually used the old single pixel dots--they always used the text icons but won't admit it. Why they don't want other simmers to get rid of the ugly unrealistic text icons I don't know. Must be an online internet play thing, Fear of losing internet Brownie Points in text icon dogfight server or something.

SPOCK!

Obi_Kwiet
11-22-2004, 06:46 AM
You know, harder doesn€t always mean more realistic. Just because you're on a fairer playing ground against n00bs who can't see the unrealistically difficult to see AC doesn€t mean that it's unrealistic. Have you ever seen AC from AC to AC? I thought not. Oleg has said that before the planes were unrealistically hard to see. This is the best solution to the problem with this engine. Now quit whining and get a life. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

IKP_Congo
11-22-2004, 07:04 AM
User / Server option in my opinion.

The only problem there could be a bit of whining from those who don't get their way in a multiplayer room, particularly if, within squadrons, members had strong polarised preferences regarding the dots.

Bewolf
11-22-2004, 07:48 AM
Huge Fan of the new dots here. With the old ones I had to get superclose to the monitor, concentrate my eyes all the time and got headaches after some time trying to spot the possible enemies. Over land it was particulary bad.

The new ones may be more unrealistic, I won't doubt that, but at least now spotting is a bit more relaxed. Over ground visibility is much improved, a big thanks for that. Certainly it is better then using icons, which for me are immersion killers #1.

But I certainly am willing to compromise by making them a bit lighter.

XyZspineZyX
11-22-2004, 07:52 AM
The thing a lot of need to understand here is....apart from the different monitor sizes and resolutions, what we see in a plane, detail wise ingame at 1500 metres is what you would see in a plane at at least 5km away in Real Life
As far as plane spotting goes, we are in fact playing in 1/10 scale model.

I do believe the dots should be set ingame to resolution based. In 1024 x 768 resolution, the dots are far too big and unrealistic (mind you the ship dots are great and realistic but the ground target dots are not, they stand out like dog b*lls and don't take into account the importance of camouflage.
At least with pre 3.01m dots a pilot could make out the enemy plane from a distance by the colour and size. Axis seemed to be bigger and darker, if in fact the darker colour did make them seem to appear bigger.

If the size of the dot could be gradated with distance, well......then detail would still lose out.

imho and my 2c

pinho-
11-22-2004, 08:41 AM
Say no to "Flying Balls"! If you want a easy game, play CFS!
The surprise is the advantage of the aces!

Tater-SW-
11-22-2004, 09:38 AM
Set up your bounce out of the sun like a real ace.

tater

Scen
11-22-2004, 10:36 AM
For those that are talking about realism...

There would be no such thing as a dot. The whole point in rendering a dot is for game play.

I'm not to sure how many of you are real pilots but I can assure you spotting airplanes in real life is pretty difficult. Things like haze smog fog sunlight paint etc. all play a part in spotting an airplane.

If you don't like the new dots try playing in 16X12 and tell me they are bad. It's a function of resolution and monitor size. Old dots (grey) are very difficult to pick at that high res so much so that it's not an equal playing ground. In order to have a chance on a full realism server I had to turn down the resolution. With the new dots its far better and it stays within being resonable. It's about what guys where seeing with the old dots at low resolution.

I think making it an option is a compromise but for those that run in high res your basically out if a server uses the old dots.

Scendore

269GA-Veltro
11-22-2004, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pinho-:
Say no to "Flying Balls"! If you want a easy game, play CFS!
The surprise is the advantage of the aces! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more! You got the point!

Where is the surprise now guys?

Tater-SW-
11-22-2004, 11:14 AM
Out of the sun?

Prove that the pilots bounced in real life couldn't possibly see their attackers, instead of getting lazy and not looking.

On many rigs the old dots are invisible at distances where they should not be in real life. Many have said how easy it is to lose a contact, or not spot him in real life, and that is true. But in the game, they need to be visible at some level for them to be "hard to spot" otherwise they are "impossible to spot" which is not the same thing. "Easier to spot" is not the same as "impossible to miss," either.

Defenders of either dot system need to demonstrate that their favorite dot type ends up with historically accurate OUTCOMES. Looks don't matter, just the statistics. In an online environment, you are unlikely flying a few hours before you see action, so you are more "fresh" than a RL pilot who got up long before dawn, and flew in a cramped cockpit with loads of gear. It's easy to be "lazy" when you have to deal with the real stresses. Online, you are ready for action (and get it) all the time, so it's less likely to surprise someone period. I assume you think that unrealistically short view distances make things more real in this regard. They don't.

tater

BigganD
11-22-2004, 11:40 AM
I like the old ones, didnt have any problems with them..

ucanfly
11-22-2004, 11:53 AM
You guys that vote for the old dots don't seem to realize the true potential of these new dots - more no icon servers online. There are so few now there is very little if any choice. The vast majority are with icons. I say keep the new dots so that we can have more no icon servers. If you ask me the icons are the worst immersion killer of all. Any body here that hates the new dots and plays with icons (limited or not) lose some credibility in their argument IMO.

I say keep the dots so we can lose the icons!!!!