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joberrick
12-13-2004, 07:55 AM
I read a while back that someone was modeling the Graf Zeppelin. But is anyone curently working on any of the planes that would have flown off of it? (Me-109T, Ju-87,etc...)

joberrick
12-13-2004, 07:55 AM
I read a while back that someone was modeling the Graf Zeppelin. But is anyone curently working on any of the planes that would have flown off of it? (Me-109T, Ju-87,etc...)

Jason Bourne
12-13-2004, 08:18 AM
there was actually an official poll awhile ago about whether or not we wanted navalised 109/87s, and IIRC the general consensus was that we would love to have them, as for the GZ, not sure about it, it would be cool, but truthfully? pretty pointless. Though it would be the best CV of the entire game in terms of firepower.

DuxCorvan
12-13-2004, 09:15 AM
Nice stuff for 'what-ifs'... though we know that Graf Zeppelin never entered service and that the few navalised Bf 109s and Stukas that were intended for it, were finally refitted as ground-based units.

Tooz_69GIAP
12-13-2004, 11:08 AM
Far as I'm aware, a model for the GZ has been in Oleg's hands for about a year, which if true, kinda says that we ain't getting it.

As far as the navalised aircraft, the 109T and the Ju-87C(?), about 25ish 109Ts were produced, and were reclaimed by the Luftwaffe and put into service in Norway I think, after the GZ was cancelled so you could say we could have em. But I think they had all their naval gear like hooks, etc removed when they were put into Norway. I'm not sure about the Stukas.

There was also a torpedo bomber developed for the carrier, a Fiesler summit or other. Was apparently very good, but I think only 3 aircraft were produced as test prototypes. Not sure.

csThor
12-13-2004, 11:26 AM
In fact there were no planes operated by the Kriegsmarine. G├┬Âring was a pretty good "old bull" as he declared "Everything that flies is mine." So basically the KM would have the carrier, but the LW would be the one to operate the Carrier Air Group.

Tooz_69GIAP
12-13-2004, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by csThor:
In fact there were _no_ planes operated by the Kriegsmarine. G├┬Âring was a pretty good "old bull" as he declared "Everything that flies is mine." So basically the KM would have the carrier, but the LW would be the one to operate the Carrier Air Group. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought the Tirpitz, Bismark, Graf Spee, and a couple others had recon aircraft on board which were launched via catapult. Were these still under Luftwaffe control, or were they KM crews manning the aircraft???

Vigilanty
12-13-2004, 01:22 PM
I want the GZ and shipboard planes bad. I hope Oleg changes his mind. This is fantasy but only just; the ship was virtually complete and the air groups were in training.

IV_JG51_Razor
12-13-2004, 01:27 PM
I've seen pictures of the JU-87C with folded wings. Does anybody know if the 109T had provisions for folding wings?

joeap
12-13-2004, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by csThor:
In fact there were _no_ planes operated by the Kriegsmarine. G├┬Âring was a pretty good "old bull" as he declared "Everything that flies is mine." So basically the KM would have the carrier, but the LW would be the one to operate the Carrier Air Group. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought the Tirpitz, Bismark, Graf Spee, and a couple others had recon aircraft on board which were launched via catapult. Were these still under Luftwaffe control, or were they KM crews manning the aircraft??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
AFAIK, they were in fact manned by Luftwaffe crews as well. Even if they were under operational control of the ship they were on. I also recall reading somewhere that starting from 43-44 most of the Arados were removed from ships (as the KM had very few anyway) and operated from coastal seaplane bases. Go here if you want more info:
Bismarck and Tirpitz (http://www.bismarck-class.dk)

darkhorizon11
12-13-2004, 01:57 PM
I've posted on this before and I would love it although, I doubt 1c will ever model it.

I guess its pretty much one of those if you want it then do it yourself type of things...

Vigilanty
12-13-2004, 02:08 PM
The skins are easy, the hooks are hard. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif I've been trying for the last several days to land a JU-87B on the Lexington. I think I'll eventually get it, but it would be a lot more fun with a hook.

Luftwaffe_109
12-13-2004, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by csThor:
In fact there were _no_ planes operated by the Kriegsmarine. G├┬Âring was a pretty good "old bull" as he declared "Everything that flies is mine." So basically the KM would have the carrier, but the LW would be the one to operate the Carrier Air Group. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I might add that, not only was anything that flew owned by the luftwaffe (with the exception of maybe a couple of Storch liason aircraft for military staff, lol) but also the entire force needed to man the anti-air guns of the Reich, the fallshirmjaggers (paratroopers), the fallshirmpanzerdivision herman goering (a fully-fleged elite panzer division owned by the luftwaffe) and several luftwaffe field division whose combat performance was rather poor but were notheless infrantry units.

Regards

Tooz_69GIAP
12-13-2004, 07:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IV_JG51_Razor:
I've seen pictures of the JU-87C with folded wings. Does anybody know if the 109T had provisions for folding wings? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 109T could fold wings, but only manually, and the process required the removal of the flaps beforehand I think which made the operation rather complicated.

The 109T was basically a converted 109E-1, when in 1942, after the British were able to prevent attacks on northern convoys by german raiders by operating carriers, Admiral Raeder wanted to begin work on the GZ again. However, the 109T was outdated by this time, so a new design was requested for a ship borne fighter. The result was the Me-155, which was pretty much a navalised Gustav except for a re-designed wing, inward retracting gear for a more stable landing, and 1x20mm cannon in the nose, plus 2x20mm cannon and 2x13mm MGs in the wings. Estimated speed was 403mph.

The design was never finished as the KM told Messerschmitt to shelve the design indefinately as they concentrated on other priorities.

The design was handed over to Blohm und Voss, who altered the design into a fighter bomber, and then high altitude interceptor under the designation BV-155, but it never entered production, and was still being tested at the war's end.

I think that's about it.

SkyChimp
12-13-2004, 08:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:

The 109T was basically a converted 109E-1,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK, it was the Bf-109E7/N.

IV_JG51_Razor
12-13-2004, 11:05 PM
Thanks for the info Tooz! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

csThor
12-13-2004, 11:53 PM
The first Bf 109 T's were made out of Bf 109 D-2, but the majority was made from Bf 109 E-1.

Sapper646
12-14-2004, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
Far as I'm aware, a model for the GZ has been in Oleg's hands for about a year, which if true, kinda says that we ain't getting it.

As far as the navalised aircraft, the 109T and the Ju-87C(?), about 25ish 109Ts were produced, and were reclaimed by the Luftwaffe and put into service in Norway I think, after the GZ was cancelled so you could say we could have em. But I think they had all their naval gear like hooks, etc removed when they were put into Norway. I'm not sure about the Stukas.

There was also a torpedo bomber developed for the carrier, a Fiesler summit or other. Was apparently very good, but I think only 3 aircraft were produced as test prototypes. Not sure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In 1936 the Kriegsmarine laid down the keel of its first carrier, which was launched in 1938 but never completed. Shortly after the keel was laid, the German air ministery issued to select companies a requirement for a multirole carrierborne warplane with excellent STOL capabilities , a folding wing, and the strength to make divebombing attacks at high speed. Only Arado and Fieseler responded. Fieseler eventually won the contract with their Fi 167.

Fieseler recieved an order for 12 Fi 167-0 preproduction aircraft with jettisonable under carriage. But the abandonment of the carrier programme made the FI 167 superfluous, and so nine aircraft were passed to the Romanians for coastal operations over the Black sea.

At least one Fi 167 served with Erprobungstaffel 167, based in the Netherlands during 1940_42.

Fi 167 Two seat torpedo bomber, and recon aircraft.

Crew:2

Powerplant: 1x 1100hp DB 601B 12 cylinder inverted vee.

Performance: 325kph/203mph, climb to 1000m/3280ft in 2 minutes 42 secs.

Service ceiling: 8200m/26,905ft.

Range: 1500km/932 miles.

Weight: Empty 2800kg/6172Lbs, Max Takeoff 4850kg/10,692Lbs.

Armament: 1x 7.92mm MG fixed forward in starboard upper fuselage. 1x 7.92mm Mg in rear cockpit, plus an external payload of 1000kg/2205Lbs of bombs or torpedo.

Sapper

Sapper

Philipscdrw
12-14-2004, 08:49 AM
Ahh, never mind the carriers! Give us the real Graf Zeppelin, and also the USN Akron and Macon! Airship-launched fighters! Just steer clear of the thunderstorms...

Vigilanty
12-14-2004, 09:01 PM
oooooo! Late '20s and early '30s! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

SkyChimp
12-14-2004, 09:23 PM
There were only 70 planes produced in all of the Bf-109T series.

The Bf-109T-2, which accounted for the principle portion of T production, was powered by the DB601N engine. The E-1 was powered by the DB601A. So it appears T production wasn't based on the Bf-109E-1.

Messerschmitt Bf-109A-E: Developement, Testing, Production by Radinger and Schick indicates various models were used to develope the T model, however, it also states, "Based on test results (catapult launches and arrested landings) it was obvious that the modified Bf-109 E-7/N was the best candidate for the carrier fighter."

The E-7/N was the extended range model powered by a 601N engine.

Saburo_0
12-15-2004, 12:47 AM
Understand the interest, but don't really share it at present. Seems like planes we already have with reduced performance due to naval gear.

Sorry guys, don't mean to be negative, but wanted to share my POV. Do appreciate the info on the planes but it just seems so hypothetical. If ya know what I mean.

Now if you can convince me the Germans were actually serious about building the Graf Zeppelin then I might get interested. Right now it's kinda like the British Ice Carrier.
But look at this as a bump anyway, always good to think about different things.

Cheers,

malkuth
12-15-2004, 06:31 AM
LOL I had no idea what the Graf Zepplin was. When I read this I starting thinking Fantasy world of an Airbord Zepplin that was an Aircraft Carrier lol.

DOH.

Airmail109
12-15-2004, 06:34 AM
mmmmm what about a navalised me-262 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-15-2004, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Saburo_0:
Understand the interest, but don't really share it at present. Seems like planes we already have with reduced performance due to naval gear.

Sorry guys, don't mean to be negative, but wanted to share my POV. Do appreciate the info on the planes but it just seems so hypothetical. If ya know what I mean.

Now if you can convince me the Germans were actually serious about building the Graf Zeppelin then I might get interested. Right now it's kinda like the British Ice Carrier.
But look at this as a bump anyway, always good to think about different things.

Cheers, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.luftarchiv.info/gerat/9.jpg

Philipscdrw
12-15-2004, 08:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by malkuth:
LOL I had no idea what the Graf Zepplin was. When I read this I starting thinking Fantasy world of an Airbord Zepplin that was an Aircraft Carrier lol.

DOH. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you heard about the Akron and the Makon then? They were USN rigid airships of the early 30s, which could store and launch 3 and 5 fighter aircraft respectively. They had a harness arrangement on the upper wing that could catch the airship's arrester gear and be hoisted into the interior. They both crashed fairly rapidly when they were flown through severe thunderstorms, sadly...

darkhorizon11
12-15-2004, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aimail101:
mmmmm what about a navalised me-262 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chyeahhh, good luck taking off within the length of the carrier deck in that thing.

Vigilanty
12-15-2004, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JaBo_HH-BlackSheep:
http://www.luftarchiv.info/gerat/9.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFL! I started to write an essay on this topic yesterday, didn't have time, came back to it and found that I didn't need to. A picture really is worth a thousand words.

Luftwaffe_109
12-15-2004, 09:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Now if you can convince me the Germans were actually serious about building the Graf Zeppelin then I might get interested. Right now it's kinda like the British Ice Carrier.
But look at this as a bump anyway, always good to think about different things.

Cheers, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course they were serious, the aircraft carrier was over 80% completed. This was after the the Battle of the Barents Sea, against the convoy JW51B, when the construction of all major surface units was finally stopped by Adolf Hitler due to the unsatisfactorty performance of the main Kriegsmarine surface units involved.

Best Regards

Saburo_0
12-17-2004, 02:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftwaffe_109:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Now if you can convince me the Germans were actually serious about building the Graf Zeppelin then I might get interested. Right now it's kinda like the British Ice Carrier.
But look at this as a bump anyway, always good to think about different things.

Cheers, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course they were serious, the aircraft carrier was over 80% completed. This was after the the Battle of the Barents Sea, against the convoy JW51B, when the construction of all major surface units was finally stopped by Adolf Hitler due to the unsatisfactorty performance of the main Kriegsmarine surface units involved.

Best Regards <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, didn't think they got that far along on it...80% huh ? That's pretty good but with nothing to support it I can see why you'd direct the resources elsewhere.
If it could make it into the Atlantic allied convoys would have been in a bad way. Hmmm, interesting.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Bewolf
12-17-2004, 02:30 AM
Nice URL on the topic

Graf Zeppelin (http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/kriegsmarine/carrier/grafzeppelin/grafzeppelin.html)

Pic from that site.
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/kriegsmarine/carrier/grafzeppelin/grafzeppelinn4.gif

Saburo_0
12-17-2004, 07:46 AM
Thanks! Good read.

Tho seems incredibly stupid to put all the AAA on one side of the vessel???

Bewolf
12-17-2004, 08:05 AM
If I remember right, some japansese designs had the same configuration. Stupid nevertheless.