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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 07:25 AM
(I hope the mods don't lock this post too quickly, but since there's no more off-topic forum)...

I'm very interested in getting a private pilot's license in the U.S. I'll soon have the time, and I've saved up the money. I plan to enroll in a local flying club for training.

However, I have a question to all the real-life pilots out there in this wonderful forum. (And this is a serious question please).

What's the typical mortality rate of civilian flying? How likely is it to die during training and after getting a private license (specifically for the U.S., in a large metropolitan area, using rented single-prop planes)?

I'm usually a little brazen with my choice of physical activities, but dying from a plane crash doesn't sound like the way to go!

Any feedback or stats on this question would be really appreciated. I'm sorry that this is not an Il-2/FB related topic but I know there are a lot of true life pilots here in this forum who are a valuable source of knowledge.

Thanks,

BpK

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 07:25 AM
(I hope the mods don't lock this post too quickly, but since there's no more off-topic forum)...

I'm very interested in getting a private pilot's license in the U.S. I'll soon have the time, and I've saved up the money. I plan to enroll in a local flying club for training.

However, I have a question to all the real-life pilots out there in this wonderful forum. (And this is a serious question please).

What's the typical mortality rate of civilian flying? How likely is it to die during training and after getting a private license (specifically for the U.S., in a large metropolitan area, using rented single-prop planes)?

I'm usually a little brazen with my choice of physical activities, but dying from a plane crash doesn't sound like the way to go!

Any feedback or stats on this question would be really appreciated. I'm sorry that this is not an Il-2/FB related topic but I know there are a lot of true life pilots here in this forum who are a valuable source of knowledge.

Thanks,

BpK

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 07:31 AM
I have no idea what the statistics are, but I think its safe to assume that its more dangerous to drive to work every day than it is to learn to fly a plane (that is, if you are trained properly).



Be seeing you.
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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 07:41 AM
We have lost two GA pilots from our local club in the last few years .....

One was flying an ultralight thats max ceiling was not much more than the strip he was flying from. no one knows quite what happened but its pretty obvious.

The other was practicing very low level (sub 50 feet) aerobatics for an airshow.


Most fatalities occur in ultalights, aerobatics planes, warbirds and crop dusters.

Normal flying, pottering about in a Piper or Cessna, is far safer than driving.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 07:42 AM
JFK died. If it can happen to him, it can happen to anybody. Also happened to Ozzie's guitarist. And Stevie Ray Vaughn's helocopter crashed into a mountain.

Man was not meant to fly. If you want to make it your hobby I strongly recommend against it.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 07:47 AM
I always thought JFK was shot ???


John Denver killed himself in an ultralight .. apparently by pushing on the rudder pedal and causing a spiral dive while he turned around to play with a fuel valve behind teh pilots seat .. but the same thing would kill you in a car.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 07:52 AM
hi friend.

i have been flying for 9 years now.
i have lost 7 flyers and 5 parachutist friends during this time. we are a small aeroclub in europe having about 180 members.
flying is the coolest thing in life! go and try it but always be sober and careful!

happy landingz!

plébános

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 08:38 AM
In the morning I can give you just what you seek, or you may do a web search for the "Nall Report" which will tell you more than you need to know. It will also tell you, in round about terms, that you should go for it. . .if you are passionate about it do it!! I would say that it is much like any other means of transportation in that YOU are a major factor in the safety of the operation of the vehicle. Use your checklists every time, adhere to regs everytime, maintain currency all the time, and you will fly to a ripe old age. Low altitude maneuvering and "controlled flight into terrain" or CFIT (usually the plane is on autopilot, and the pilot is doing something other than fly the plane) are the primary causes of accidents. . . and needless to say, you gotta be something of a bonehead to do that. (though as statistics show, we all can be boneheads!)

places to start are:

www.aopa.org (http://www.aopa.org)

www.beapilot.com (http://www.beapilot.com)


www.landings.com (http://www.landings.com)


It will be one of the greatest thing you have ever done!!




S!
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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 08:59 AM
All statistics I've seen is that you're at highest risk in the range between 100 and 200 hours of flying time. Before that you know you're inexperienced and are very careful. After that you are experienced, and manage well. In between, you think you're experienced but you're not, thus at high risk.

Some things worth thinking of. Almost all accidents are caused by plain stupidity. For example not having checked the fuel level before going, or not having calculated if you have enough fuel for the trip. Also almost all accidents occurr near the airport, takeoff and landing accidents. Again, most of them due to stupidity (over weight on takeoff, landing at too high speed at too short a field, etc.) Those not related to landing/takeoff are mostly due to bad weather (again, stupidity, don't get up in weather you don't master, and if you unexpectedly run into it, turn around.)

Being actively aware of these things, you can steer yourself clear of most dangers. Then, after this, there's a small percentage of fluke accidents.

Also be aware that most accidents are non-lethal. For example I wittnessed one of those stupidity related accidents last Sat. A plane came in for landing at rediculously high speed to a rather short field. He spent at least 2/3 of the runway in the flare, and then he pushed the plane down forcefully. There was not enough tarmac left to stop the plane and he ended up in the rough with a broken prop. The pilot was not hurt. The mistake can be made, but it shouldn't have. Once the mistake was made he should've aborted the landing, but he didn't.

The majority of airmen die of old age, not flying related accidents.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:16 AM
John Denver killed himself in an ultralight ..
- apparently by pushing on the rudder pedal and
- causing a spiral dive while he turned around to play
- with a fuel valve behind teh pilots seat .. but the
- same thing would kill you in a car.


actually it was a long e-z which is a high performance homebuilt.
just thought u might like to know
aristo

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:46 AM
It is alot more dangerous to drive a car.

You always here about aircraft crashes on the news or in the paper but, never the car crashes. This makes aviation look dangerous. Besides the elevator, the airplane is one of the safest ways of transportation.

Go get your pilots license! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:47 AM
Wow! Thanks for the feedback all.

EcoDragon - thanks for the links. I have already read the Nall report (2001) and looked on the FAA and AOPA websites as well. Lots of great info, but it helps to hear some personal experience as well.

My God Plebanos, that's a pretty hairy mortality record in your club! Were most of those deaths in newbies or experienced pilots? Also, I assume those poor skydivers died from skydiving, and not flying (unless the plane crashed before they could bail out!).

It seems easy to assume that those who crash were foolish knuckleheads, but bad s***t happens to the best of us. Nonetheless, all of your words are very encouraging!

Thanks,

BpK

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:53 AM
"I'm usually a little brazen with my choice of physical activities, but dying from a plane crash doesn't sound like the way to go!"


No, that's a very clever question.

I know a very old professional instructor (70) who is still active with his own Piper Cub and who takes always a chute (an his student too) when he flies. He says the private pilots are ******* to fly without chutes, because a man doesn't know how to fly without wings! He uses to work also on a very mountainous area, so crash landings are not really a good training idea /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And he is damned right. I knew a guy who made air-air pictures who died simply because it's no more in the mood today to use chutes. With a chute, he would be still alive today!

Btw, if you care for your life as a pilot (what is again a very clever thing), there's a small company in the States (forgot the name,sorry) which build very pretty light and fast airplanes which have a chute behind the cockpit and this solution seems to work pretty well. Same company is also testing such solutions for much bigger aircrafts.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:53 AM
Swingman - at about 150 hours I'm slap bang in the middle of the "most at risk" interval then!

To anyone wishing to give it a go I'd say do. Definitely. Best holidays I've ever had have been long cross-country trips in GA aircraft. It's a great community to be part of, it's something challenging in this modern life, and the views are terrific.

(In addition to the websites linked above I'd recommed the Private Flying forum on the Professional Pilots Rumour Network for specific queries on PPL training - http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=63 ).

Cheers,

SSS

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:01 AM
CHDT - The company you refer to is Cirrus, you can see videos of the BRS chute in action here. You can also retro-fit the chute system to other GA aircraft. The first usage of this system "for real" occured earlier this year I believe, the pilot survived, as (largely) did the aircraft.

http://www.airplaneparachutes.com/BRS35.htm

The only time I've ever worn a chute myself is in an RAF Chipmunk. I think in the GA world today only aerobatic display pilots and meat bombers (parachute drop pilots) tend to wear chutes. Given the option, I'd love to have one on every trip!

SSS






Message Edited on 06/18/0309:04AM by SpinSpinSugar

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:36 AM
Thanks for the links, SpinSpinSugar, very interesting /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


You wrote: "Given the option, I'd love to have one on every trip!"

Me too! And it's not a question of fear, it's a question of staying the master of his destiny until the very last seconds. For instance, after a collision during an air-air photo session, I would feel pretty dumb, falling in my aircraft to the ground, saying to me "eh, with a chute, I would be not dead in the next 20 seconds"!

Cheers,


P.S. Btw, I hate even more helis since the death of Stevie Ray Vaughn /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

When you've big trouble in a heli, you're very often a pretty dead meat. Just look at the monthly accident statistics in Air International. The most secure aircrafts are in fact the jet fighters with modern seats (no more spinal injuries).

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:11 AM
Hello,

I have some US statistics on this, though I got my PPL and fly mostly in Finland.

General aviation accidents rate per 100,000 flight hours:

1995 8,23
1996 7,66
1997 7,29
1998 7,12

From 1989 til 1993 1142 private pilots were killed, among those were 102 student pilots.

Its not that bad, give it a try /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,
=38=IndiaOscar


http://www.russianaviationarchive.com



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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:21 AM
Yeah - interesting videos, it's a great concept, although I think "Cessna 150 High Speed Deployment" is a bit of a misnomer. Surely some mistake? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SSS

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:27 AM
CHDT wrote:
- When you've big trouble in a heli, you're very often
- a pretty dead meat. Just look at the monthly
- accident statistics in Air International.

They handle engine failure OK they glide OK with auto-rotation but they are seriously NOT the place to be if you loose a tail rotor.

A lot of the touble with helicopters is WHERE they fly, they spend a lot of time down low amongst power cables, high buildings, canyon walls.. all the natural enemy of the helicopter.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:35 AM
Another thing with helis (and also one reason why most aircraft accidents are close to the airport) is because you're low. If something happens when you're near ground, you have very little time to do anything about it. If something goes wrong at 10000', your chances of survival are very good indeed.

I didn't mean to imply that most people who crash are knuckleheads, although I can see how my message could be interpreted that way. However, a disturbing majority of all accidents are due to a few easily avoidable reasons (fuel planning is one of those, as is available runway length.) Make sure you don't make *those* misstakes, and your chances of survival are incredibly much higher.

As was said by one of my instructors: If you're going to crash, make sure it's not for a stupid reason.

Bad things do happen, that's true. Most bad things can easily be avoided, that's also true.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:41 AM
Oh, I forgot. Never stop practicing. Too many pilots seems to think that once they have their license, they don't need to practice anymore. Wrong! Go up once in a while for the sole purpose of stalling, deadstick landing, etc. You never know when you'll need that skill.

At the club where I fly we frequently have games, like a navigation practice (follow a difficult route, with a GPS logger on board,) or precision landing practices including precision deadstick landings. It's very good to get help by those who are more experienced. One of those who almost always participates in these exercises has nearly 30.000h (retired airforce and airline pilot.)
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:09 PM
ignore RBJ (as usual)
JFKjr died in his a/c i believe from the reports because he igonored the advice of more experienced pilots,on that day the weather conditins were not favourable ,i remember reading that another pilot with greater experience cancelled his trip to the same destination for that very reason,they reckon JFKjr got into goldfish bowl syndrome and didnt trust his insturments thus getting all disoreintated and trusting his own sences over the actual instruments.(if i remember correctly)?

anyway ive been flying five years and only a few deaths have occured in that time from my field,most of those were helos,one recent one due to structural failure.

when i fly i have a very great sence of my/others mortality but i reckon if you keep this in your mind but always concentrate on your training you should be safe.

my favourite part of any flight is when ive just taxied of the runway after landing i can then enjoy the experience ive just been concentrating on so hard

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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I fly this!!

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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:11 PM
If your afraid of what could happen then dont do it. Life has lots of choices dont be afraid to live it.



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:58 PM
I have flown for 10 years including aerobatics.

The British CAA (civil aviation authority)does publish figures stating number of hours flown per death for the various typs of flying and catagories of aircraft (gyrocopters are worst!). Look it up on their web site. Possiblt your FAA does same? - I'm not sure.

I have lost friends (and indeed the guy who taught me to fly) in air crashes.

I think there are far more dangerous things out there (eg my motorbike is more likley statistically to be the thing I die on) but flying is, by it's very nature, very unforgiving.

You have to know your limitations and be wary of the weather, and I'm sure you'll find it worth the risk.

But if you catagorically don't want to die in a plane then don't get in one. The people who say it's safer than driving are refering to huge multi-million dollar passenger jets with full time crew. That is a different kettle of fish - just look up the stats!

100,000 hours per death (but most in first 200!).

There is no yes or no to the safety issue. Just be carefull and enjoy!


Regards

James

michapma
06-18-2003, 01:16 PM
I plan to get my PPL too, after I get out of my current program. In the meanwhile I'll be studying the flight manuals and handbooks so I can save a bit of time and $$ when I start training. Right now I would have time on weekends and such to take lessons, but in Switzerland it is just too expensive. However, I am considering taking just one or two lessons to get a sense of what will come and to whet my appetite.

My younger brother has resigned from his current career and "would like to earn his living as a pilot." On the one hand I would love to see this, but I know that piloting jobs are not exactly abundant at the moment. He lives near Dayton so he certainly is well located, but he will have to work a temp job while going to school if that's what he decides on. Hope he succeeds if he does though.

Cheers,
Mike

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Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:19 PM
WTE_Galway wrote:
-
-- They handle engine failure OK they glide OK with
- auto-rotation but they are seriously NOT the place
- to be if you loose a tail rotor.
-
- A lot of the touble with helicopters is WHERE they
- fly, they spend a lot of time down low amongst power
- cables, high buildings, canyon walls.. all the
- natural enemy of the helicopter.
-
-

HAHAHA ....GLIDE ?????? you have got to be kidding me ...

Speaking as a survivor of one of these glides, I am here to tell ya...the easiest way to describe this "glide" would be to get your standard transmission automobile hurtling at a wall arouond 75-100 mph, about 500 yards out throw it in nuetral ...continue whizzing on course into said wall....at about 25-75 yards from wall, clutch and put it into lowest gear, release clutch and glide softly into the wall ..

CC

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:01 PM
What swingman said about stupid accidents. One instructor told me that fuel gauges are habitual liars and ALWAYS use a calibrated dipstick to manually check the wingtanks. Keep in coomunication with the controllers, watch traffic around you KNOW you limitations, i.e. if you make an VFR flightplan, have no IFR rating, and halfway there IFR conditions move into the derstination seriously think about putting down at the closet airstrip and waiting it out. Alot of accident reports are inexperienced IFR rated pilots or pilots with no rating trying IFR approaches using ILS.

Alot of accidents are caused by stupid oversights, and misjudgement. When I ever get around to getting my license getting an instrument rating is gonna be difficult. I get a tad nervous when can't see anything /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . I'll probably wet myself on an ILS approach /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

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Message Edited on 06/18/0309:07AM by roybaty

michapma
06-18-2003, 02:12 PM
roybaty,

I know it's hard enough in FS2002. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-tongue.gif

Mike

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<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
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Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:43 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif right back at ya /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

I've had about 5 lessons in actual a/c by no means saying I'm a pilot, just regurgitating what instructors and flight mags say. I do know that real life IFR is gonna make me sweat alot though.

Now if I win the lottery soon I could probably afford to get a license /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:59 PM
im a vfr pilot but even if i was an ifr pilot i wouldnt want to fly in ifr conditions in my warrior,who knows whats in the next cloud so best stay out of them thats my moto,claustrophobic and bumpy,nasty things in my book.

im a fair weather flier dont see the point in going up and not enjoying the flight with poor vis,turbulence at 120 an hour i want to enjoy m money not fear for my life and that of my passengers.

im all for honing your skills but flying in poor weather just seems like taking a huge risk for no good reason if your a lesiure pilot like me.

i recently landed just as a thunderstorm was closing on the other end of the runway,it was a huge buzz as i landed but afterwards the what ifs crept in,like what if i had to go around etc.

fear of something does a good job in concentrating the mind


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
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I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk ( <A HREF=)" target=_blank>http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk</a>
No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
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I fly this!!

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No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy

michapma
06-18-2003, 02:59 PM
Aw, when they say you're ready you'll be ready. Just not experienced...

/i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

New forum-filter-friendly sig without the word doc@ment.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

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SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 03:07 PM
Just thought I'd throw my two cents worth in just to add to the argument that the pilot's "safety consciousness" is a major factor::

1- interesting statistics. by profession, doctors have the highest PPL mortality rate- it's speculated that they have (a statistically) greater than average toleration for risk, and belief in their abilities to get out of difficult circumstances. (This statistic may be sample biased in so far as medical professionals are more likely be pilots than the general population)

2- JFK jr, was, IIRC, a low hours pilot flying with a cast on his leg, with a fully loaded plane (wife, kid, luggage- presumably within weight and balance limits)... it's not clear what exactly happened (seems like he just stalled out and dropped into the ocean) but fair, I think, to speculate that another person, from a less "risky" background (another Kennedy died while playing the family game of "downhill skiing/ football") might have recognised their own inexperience and not decided to fly in his position,

so... get your PPL, but BE CAREFUL... especially when everything starts to feel a bit like a routine.

Cheers,
CG

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 03:55 PM
bpk1970 wrote:
- I assume those
- poor skydivers died from skydiving, and not flying
- (unless the plane crashed before they could bail
- out!).

The great majority of skydiving fatalities are caused by plane crashes upon or right after takeoff.

They pack the jumpers in like sardines, making it nearly impossible to exit the AC in the event of trouble even if there is enough altitude.

Jumping from helicopters has it's own risks as well. If anyone tries to jump while the helo is doing an auto-rotation they'll go right up into the fan. Not a pretty sight and usually fatal to everyone else left aboard as well.

But if you want real danger try a star extraction. I did one once and it's one wild ride.


Regards,
August

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 04:25 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- JFK died. If it can happen to him, it can happen to
- anybody. Also happened to Ozzie's guitarist. And
- Stevie Ray Vaughn's helocopter crashed into a
- mountain.
-
- Man was not meant to fly. If you want to make it
- your hobby I strongly recommend against it.
-



---In that case, man was not meant to do a lot of things--drive, type on a keyboard, talk on a cell phone. I bet you do all of these things.

Give it a rest.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 04:38 PM
hey, you aren´t raybanjockey /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif your name says something different. i got you /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif hahaha.... you are not real!!!



---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 04:41 PM
TX-EcoDragon wrote:
Low altitude maneuvering and
- "controlled flight into terrain" or CFIT (usually
- the plane is on autopilot, and the pilot is doing
- something other than fly the plane) are the primary
- causes of accidents. . . and needless to say, you
- gotta be something of a bonehead to do that.

Like joining the mile high-er-the 1/2 mile-ah, the 100 foot, eh,never mind/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
rad

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Message Edited on 06/18/0310:42AM by radkiller

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 06:00 PM
Interesting, a doctor crashed at a local airport last year. He was in a Piper Malibu and somehow veered of the runway, and crashed into a building. Unfortunately the plane caught fire and he later died of severe burns /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif .


Cold_Gambler wrote:
- Just thought I'd throw my two cents worth in just to
- add to the argument that the pilot's "safety
- consciousness" is a major factor::
-
- 1- interesting statistics. by profession, doctors
- have the highest PPL mortality rate- it's speculated
- that they have (a statistically) greater than
- average toleration for risk, and belief in their
- abilities to get out of difficult circumstances.
- (This statistic may be sample biased in so far as
- medical professionals are more likely be pilots than
- the general population)
-
- 2- JFK jr, was, IIRC, a low hours pilot flying with
- a cast on his leg, with a fully loaded plane (wife,
- kid, luggage- presumably within weight and balance
- limits)... it's not clear what exactly happened
- (seems like he just stalled out and dropped into the
- ocean) but fair, I think, to speculate that another
- person, from a less "risky" background (another
- Kennedy died while playing the family game of
- "downhill skiing/ football") might have recognised
- their own inexperience and not decided to fly in his
- position,
-
- so... get your PPL, but BE CAREFUL... especially
- when everything starts to feel a bit like a routine.
-
- Cheers,
- CG
-
-



Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:05 PM
Another means to evaluate the real causes of accidents is the accident reports as filed by the aviation division of the NTSB. I have read the majority of the web based reports that exist, and after a while you can predict the outcome with only a few short lines into them. As they say, accidents are usually the result of a chain of events that deviate from the norm/planned. You will see that the number of accidents that happen due to something other than direct pilot error are actually extremely rare. This isn't to say that GA aircraft are supremely safe when looking at statistics (of course anything that gets you moving at hundreds of miles an hour and thousands of feet up is able to kill you quick) , but compare that to airline statistics which are by far the safest means of transportation, evaluate the amount of that difference that is caused solely by equipment, and you are left with a big finger pointing right at the pilot. However, this isnt to say that a pilot with 9,000 hours is inherently safer than you with only 50. Safety isn't attained only after thousands of hours and many ratings, It is simply that most of these piltos have had more practice doing things by the book, and taking the time to do them properly. Consider that safety of training flights is extremely high. Is this because a flight instructor is on board?? Not really, that same flight instructor flying solo is back into the higher risk zone! The main reason training flights are so exceptionally safe is because the crewmembers are doing everything by the book, they took the time do do a simple preflight, a checklist is being used for all critical aspects of flight, the pilot has almost certainly been keeping their proficiency in emergency procedures, etc., and hasnt' had years and years of smooth operations to make them go complacent. When you consider that most accidents happen in the airport environment, or at low altitudes while maneuvering, and then you acknowledge that most hours of training are spent flying in those two situations primarilly, you can once again see that the primary factor onboard is the pilot!!!

Most accidents really are so preventable that you almost wanna smack someone. .

"Do even the most basic preflight so you notice that the control surfaces are removed for maintainance!!!" smack

"Put fuel in the tanks before takeoff!!!" smack

"Remove the control lock before takeoff!!!!" smack

"Don't wait for the fuel gauges to say E before landing!" Smack

"Don't fall aspleep while on autopilot and crash into a mountain!!" smack

"Don't get drunk and go flying!" Smack

"Dont do low altitude aerobatics in your C152 over your girlfriends softball game!!" Smack

"Don't fly in instrument conditions without an instrument rating, a IFR flight plan, and an IFR equipped aircraft!! smack

"Get a weather briefing and check NOTAMS before flight!" smack

"Dont wait for an emergency to practice emergency procedures!!" smack


"Dont forget about density altitude (etc) and the need to use that pilot's operating handbook for performance calculations, it isn't just for passing your checkride!!" smack


Pilots are trained and indoctrinated with the behaviours that will keep them alive, if you maintain these, you will survive. If you get complacent, and stop preflighting, or use mental checklists, or engage in what we all know is unsafe maneuvering, than you are taking the steps towards becomming a statistic, but once again. . .IT IS IN YOUR HANDS!

The amount of accidents that aren't are extremely rare, the amount of accidents that a parachute would be useful in is also rare.



The last point is "Fly the Airplane"

John Denver didnt fuel his LongEZ, he didnt get altitude before attempting to switch tanks (that he couldnt even reach and had to use pliers and a mirror to try and gain access to) he didnt FLY THE AIRPLANE, he most likely would have survived even if he ran out of gas, but continued to fly the airplane. . .with a LongEZ's glide performance I have figured that he probably would have even been able to land back at MRY, . It is tragic, but it is so preventable.

JFK Jr. did a flight that he admitted to not being comfortable with, he didnt get a weather breifing for 9 (!) hours before the flight, which was at night, with no moon, over ocean, and without being instrument rated. FOr anyone who has flown in these conditions, it is so black that you are in effect flying solely by refference to the instruemnts, and not only must you be skilled enough to do this, but you must trust the indications that the instruments give you above what the seat of your pants tells you. If he had simply let go of the controls the plane would have levelled itself at its trimmed airspeed. . .and he could have regained his witts, taken the time to verify that a vacuum failure had not occured. . and once again trusted his instruements. . . and perhaps survived his flight.

Convince yourself of all of this here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

Reserve Pilot Aircraft #2 of Gruppo 313
Pattuglia Acrobatica Virtuale
http://www.pav-amvi.it

http://www.calaggieflyers.com/



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Message Edited on 06/18/0312:26PM by TX-EcoDragon

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:38 PM
- "Remove the control lock before takeoff!!!!" smack
-


Guilty of that on my forth lesson, that bright "remove before flight" tag didn't stand out I guess. It was very umm, embarrassing /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 06:49 AM
Thank you fellows, for such a cogent and informative discussion!

(And thanks mods, for not locking this post).

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 07:34 AM
Flying light aircraft is dangerous. Don't let anyone fool you. It's not highly dangerous, but definately more than driving your car. Your risk potential is directly proportional to your intelligence, planning, common sense and willingness to fly conservatively.


I'll tell you some of my personal experiences (I have less than 100 hrs)

- Nearly ran off the end of a runway after a semi-emergency landing (passenger was very sick) on a runway length *just* within recommendations for the aircraft. The runway was 5000 ft high in the Cascade mountains and Piper wheelbrakes were never the best. Got a touch of tailwind and touched down a little long and ended up turning at the very end of the runway into the dirt.

-Caught in unforseen turburlence so bad I hit my head on the roof for 20 min straight. I though it would literally rip the wings off the plane. I became so nauseated I could barley fly the plane.

-Nearly stalled my plane from an excessive headwind on a ocean side runway. Tried to force the plane down, then nearly stalled.

And that is less that 100 hrs of flying. Now that I have lived through those experiences I am more prepared to deal with them..

Getting through your first 200 or so hours is paramount. Do everything conservatively until you get experience in many situations.

Then there is mechanical failures that you usually have no control over. My dad crashed a Piper after its nosegear collapse on a soft landing. It ground looped the plane and tore the prop and cowling up to almost $15000 damage. Since it was a rental plane your hands are in the companies and their mechanics control.

But hey, there is very little better in life than flying!


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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 08:15 AM
To put the danger statistics into perspective. Here in Sweden the number of light aviation accidents are, for reasons unknown to me, slightly higher than in the U.S. The number of fatalities are rougly equal to that of riding a motorcycle (not sure if that is per travelled hour, per travel, or per distance.)

Calculating per hour or distance is a bit silly, since nearly all aviation accidents are near the airport, so per travel is what makes most sense for aviation accident statistics. However, I have a feeling that is not how it is calculated (perhaps because the comparison with motorcycle rides breaks down there, because there per hour or distance makes far more sense.)

Also keep in mind that most landing/takeoff accidents, while extremely expensive, are non-lethal. Most of the times the people walk out of the plane (look around an airport. Usually you have a fairly large space with very little on it to hit.) The same goes for most emergency landings in the wild.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 04:05 PM
True, most of them are bumps, bruises, scratches, cuts, etc. One thing I've read is that you should always fly with an emergency kit with handheld gps, radio food waterproof clothing, extra cloths, flares, firstaid kit, etc. in case ya crash in a wilderness area and recuers are gonna take a while to get to you.

Winter flying is riskier because you have the cold to deal with if ya crash, not to mention icing.

swingman wrote:

- Also keep in mind that most landing/takeoff
- accidents, while extremely expensive, are
- non-lethal. Most of the times the people walk out of
- the plane (look around an airport. Usually you have
- a fairly large space with very little on it to hit.)
- The same goes for most emergency landings in the
- wild.
- _
-
- /Bjorn.
-
-
-
-



Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 04:20 PM
If you're doing a lot of wilderness flying I'd recommend a satellite phone in that kit of yours too and perhaps a backup ELT!

SSS




Message Edited on 06/19/0303:25PM by SpinSpinSugar

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 06:58 AM
Plebanos wrote:
- hi friend.
-
- i have been flying for 9 years now.
- i have lost 7 flyers and 5 parachutist friends
- during this time. we are a small aeroclub in europe
- having about 180 members.

cripes! I sure hope I never jump at this club. When I used to skydive I saw one reserve ride (main streamed) and a couple of close calls but fortunately no fatalities.



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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 01:50 PM
I am a U.S. Navy pilot with 900 hours in FA-18Cs and two combat deployments under my belt. I can honestly tell you I was probably most at risk in the 30 hours I had in Cessnas as a teenager before college and the military. Having been through professional military training, I cannot believe some of the knuckle headed civilian instructors out there. My first IP sent me out to solo with barely a word about emergency procedures. I shudder to think about how clueless I was if something had happened.

Flying is a blast. Just take the time to find a good instructor (references), know your procedures cold, and stay away from weather. I know it sounds obvious, but is seems like weather is a factor in most VFR pilots accidents. Cheers, Huggy

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 03:13 PM
We have pretty stiff regulations and safety standards here for GA (Czech Republic). Therefore we had a total of two fatalities here during the whole last year (one forgot to fill his tanks, another spinned while trying to get the plane in a position that would suit the photographer on the passenger seat--photographer died). I'm smack in the middle of my PPL training now (after 24 hours of flying and 65 hours of theory) and I can tell you that these guys here really take care about readiness for emergency situations. I've spent around three hours on stall and spin recovery and prevention, around three hours on different emergensy procedures, emergency landings and forced landings. I've been flying through light storms, heavy rains and such already (and solo of course) and I'm happily flying navigation classes now in heavy turbulence that's a common thing in this part of Europe this time of year. Getting through the first part of training (some 13 hours of basic flying skills before solo flight and some seven hours after that on just practicing takeoffs, landings, circuits etc.) was lengthy, because a lot of these flights were short, and the weather was crappy, but now it's much more interesting and alltogether enjoyable, not to mention that I'll be ready to take the exam in around 6 weeks. This week I'll be flying C-172 a bit (as I was flying C-152 until now) and I'm looking forward to it. Anyway, flying is awesome, and if you follow the rules and procedures, and keep cool there's little to fear, unless a lot of things go wrong at the same time.

<Center><img src=http://images.fotopic.net/?id=338437&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1><Center>

<Center>"I have no principles; I make Adaptability to all circumstances my Principle.<Center>
I have no tactics; I make Emptiness and Fullness my Tactics."<Center> <Center>Bushido<Center>